Buffalo, NY to Become a "Hot" Real Estate Market?


In what seems like one of the most astonishing forecasts so far this year, John O. Norquist predicts that the new urban architecture of continually-depressed Buffalo, NY will lead to a boom real estate market over the next twenty years:

Buffalo may find itself in the forefront of tomorrow's urban revival, the keynote speaker for the "Smart Growth Is Smart Business" series told nearly 300 people Tuesday evening.

John O. Norquist, president of the Chicago-based Congress for New Urbanism and former mayor of Milwaukee, was the inaugural speaker at Nichols School for an eight-part series that will run through Dec. 8.

"I think Buffalo in the next 20 years will prove to be one of the best real estate markets in the United States," he began. Then the tall, bearded Norquist quipped, "You can start the process of ending your feelings of depression any time now."

Flashing images on the screen from cities around the world, Norquist made a case for the comeback of mixed-use city blocks with apartments above retail stores.

"Buffalo has a good architectural heritage with mixed-use buildings," he said. "This is illegal in most cities...."

"Some might have called it cluttered," he acknowledged, "but it has tremendous real estate value per acre. In fact, downtown Buffalo has higher value per acre than any other part of the city, because the urban core produces wealth and value."

By maintaining the old, he said, Buffalo has a treasure just waiting to be revealed.

Folks, I'm not convinced architecture can save Buffalo. After all, this is the Buffalo of $190,000 six-bedroom homes we're talking about. This is the Buffalo that lost 11% of its population in the 1990's. In 2000, the median value of homes was $59K, compared with $149K in the entire state. While the unemployment picture of Buffalo City improved markedly in 2004, the unemployment rate is still at 7.2% compared to a national rate of 5.4%. It's possible that Buffalo will see large gains in real estate prices, should the economy (and the weather) improve markedly, but I'm not convinced.

I really have only one question regarding this rosy forecast: Is Mr. Norquist investing his own retirement savings in Buffalo real estate?


No amount of urban revival and smart growth will change the fact that Buffalo is going to change the fact that it's @*!&$#6 cold and snowy in the winter.

I'm a University of Buffalo grad, and an economic refugee from New York State, so I know what the fuck I'm talking about, unlike Norquist. Architecture has nothing to do with economic growth, and Buffalo (all of New York north of NYC, really) is depressed for a very simple reason: New York State is controlled by socialists, and has been for 50+ years.

The taxes in New York are simply insane. When I moved to Chicago from Buffalo, my house cost twice as much, but my propery tax was half as much. The income tax in Illinois is 3%, in New York it is 7%. The sales tax in my town is 6.5%, in Erie County it was 8.5%.

I don't know where you got the $190,000 figure, but that isn't the average sale price in the City of Buffalo. That would be more like $50,000. Back when I lived there in the mid ninetees, I read somewhere that there hadn't been housing price inflation in the City since the 1950s! If you bought a home in Buffalo for $25,000 in 1957, and sold it in 1997, you'd get $25,000!

Buffalo doesn't need smart growth, it needs GROWTH! Buffalo isn't declining because its suburbs are growing (the thesis behind smart growth), the WHOLE REGION from the Hudson River to the Niagara River is in steep decline.

Buffalo is no different from Rochester, Syracuse, Binghampton, or Albany. They all have the same problems, and smart growth is not the solution.

The biggest problem Buffalo has is that it has a midwestern economy (manufacturing) with an east coast tax structure. If it had Illinois' taxes, it would have Chicago's economy.


The 190K figure was for an enormous house that would cost 1.5 million in northern VA. I should have been clearer, but I did note that the median value was 59K...

Sorry, my bad. $59K is right on.

These smart growth monkies need to be beat down. Whatever Buffalo's problems, smart growth policies will make them worse. Europe has smart growth policies, that's why they grow at 1% per year.

I wonder if Norquist has visited Buffalo recently.. Someone should just hand him a radio and tune it to 930 AM. Let him listen for about an hour and then he'll be rushing back to his typewriter to correct his story.

There seem to be duplexes in decent areas of Buffalo for $60K, maybe a bit more when fixed up. Rents in the $350 - $450 range per unit. Even if there are high vacancy rates in Buffalo in general, it would seem hard to pass up investment property at these rates, right?

What's scary is that $60 duplexes have been available in Buffalo for the last ~20 years!

I started investing in Buffalo in November 04. The property prices to available rents is remarkable. There are a lot of properties in very poor condition that simply need to be demolished, areas of the city with astranomical crime and problems. These tend to be typical situations where a cities population has high unemployment and high tax structures for both individuals and companies alike.

There are some attempts at revitalization. The results remain to be seen, however it may be the case that by paying some attention to the region it will help lift the depression mentality a little.

Property is very cheap and with careful due diligence there are nice ones amongst them. vacancy is high, many management firms a little questionable tax's high. However the rents that can be charged on these cheap properties can make it a worthy venture. I can find deals where the property can be purchased for under $30K with less than $5K initial maintenance and get over $800 per month. At this ratio I dont care if the property value goes up or down as long as I can continue to get 60% occupance or above, so far much higher than that.

Can you suggest a good management firms Richard? Since you mentioned many of them questionable.

I moved to Miami from Buffalo in 1995. Although Buffalo is depressed and the taxes are outrageous, I would love to move back "home". Why? The people, the communities. I live in a affulent part of Miami, but it never will have the feel that Buffalo has. Sure, the winters can be very harsh (Blizzards of 77 and 85) however, the quality of life is much better in Buffalo than here in Miami. I would much rather raise my children in Buffalo than here in Miami where English is the second language and you feel like you are living in a foreign country, not in the United States!

A Property manager I am currently dealing with in Buffalo is DASA Properties 716 822 6920. So Far they seem to be competant and professional. They dont want to manage properties is the bad parts of town, so as such are a good contact to judge if a property is in a bad area before you buy.

Does anyone know aboutproperties in Syracuse,new York ?

I bought 14 Rental properties in the last two years in Buffalo. Unbelievable investment return. I usually charge $450.00/$550.00 for rent (2BR/3BR) and the demand is very high, any vacant unit is rented in no time. I bought a 2 Apt. building for $18,000, put new carpet, paint, toilets and other small repairs for about $2,000 and now collect $900.00/month in rent, not including utilities. Taxes are only about $950.00/year. Two years of rent pay for that house. Since prices haven't increased in 25 years they have room to triple or quadrouple now, but who cares, tons of cashflow alone is worth it.

Real estate prices are already going up in the city of Buffalo! When I started buying two years ago I was always the only person interested in any property. Now I have to bid often higher than asking price just to have my offer considered. Especially bank owned properties, fixer uppers, in the $20-$30k price range go often for $5k-$15k over asking price with 5-10 offers in the first few days the listing comes up. Watch the market at http://www.nhmsi.com all HUD homes sell immediately, only some really bad ones in the eastside take sometimes a couple of weeks. I guess many real estate investors throughout the country realized the gains that can be archieved here.

I am considering investing in Buffalo simply due to low prices and very good ratio of expense to rents.
Anyone have advice on what to avoid or watch out for?
I noticed an investor on eBay offering a "Tour of Buffalo" CD claiming to warn and beware investors of pitfalls and negatives he has personally experienced.
I am not doubting Buffalo but would love some inside info.
Thanks for this thread. Good info guys.

It seens one of the cheapest areas lies along Niagara St from the 800 block to say 2400.
Its along the water -next to hwy 190.

Why is this area so cheap? Why so many foreclosures? The zip code demographics for this 14207 etc arent so bad.

I dont live in Buffalo and would love to hear from someone who knows this area in as much detail as possible.

Either post here or fish2026@aol.com


I received a very substantial insurance settlement not long ago that I structured into lifetime monthly payments. I was thinking of selling a portion of this money to invest in rental property in Buffalo. I don't want to "flip" but invest for the long term to provide a nice monthly cash flow. Any opinions on if this is a good investment or a way to lose my shirt and my retirement?

Roseanna do you have any background in real estate?

Im mostly an attorney but have done well on land. Ive started looking on the internet for some houses where the rental will just help with the mortgage payments and I could live in the upstairs unit during summers.

There is a guy desparate to sell about 40 properties - his asking price is a bit high and really i just want ONE - he says he will take any reasonable offer ---- These are all In Niagara Falls near buffalo st bordering the park. Supposedly they are revamping this area but thats politicians talk ( Bush was going to balance the budget and create 9 million new jobs too lol). Anyway hed sell the bldgs much cheaper if he didnt have to sell them one at a time. If youre interested in that area let me know - it DOES have potential because of proximity to the water park etc but is also near lousy parts of town.

Anyone else with opinions on the park area of Niagara Falls please chime in !

For 15 years we owned a 2 family house on the West side. Lived in one apt and rented out the other. That worked out very well. I also owned a house in Florida, sold it last summer.

Not interest in NF though I do enjoy the casino. Thanks for the reply.

I am looking to purchase multi unit properties and invest in Buffalo NY. Can someone email me with professional advice in regards to demographics, apt vacancy rates, rent amount for apts etc. My email is Coliveri1977@aol.com if will be greatly appreciated.

Carmelo Oliveri
201 618 2854

Carmelo Do a GOOGLE search on Buffalo Demographics and youll get all the bad news you can handle. Buffalo continues to lose population and is expected to for the forseable future. Buffalo just had a HUGE foreclosure sale - originally 3584 properties were to go on the block, In the end about 2600 were offered and about 900 received bids. Most of these will be converted into apts - that wont be good for the market. In addition it seems there are people converting warehouses to apts as if the demand would be growing.

I like Buffalo for its architecture ( NF too) and for a good summer home. NOT for investment.

For investment look at some of the coastal areas of Texas such as Rockport. People are moving there in flocks yet its waterfront land is still cheaper than elsewhere on the coast. On my block lots that went for $42,500 in 2000 went for $250,000 in 2004 - now there are none left.

IF you buy a bldg in an area thats growing fast - you have an opportunity aside from the rental income of capital appreciation- and lots of it.

Still theres nothing like escaping texas summers ( and Bush lol ) and enjoying the lake and falls!


I am thinking about investing in Buffalo and friend of mine just bought 7 houses and swears by them - I am not convinced about the whole "buffalo dream" -does anyone have any more info into the potential of buffalo and which areas - I have been buying in baltimore which is very hot .Any tips for any quiet and upcoming areas in the US ??

I was born and raised in Buffalo. I left Buffalo in 1996 to move to Charlotte. I owned property in Buffalo several years back and I can say from experience it should not be considered a long term investment. Property values are not going anywhere. The city is near broke and lost a lot of federal funding due to mismanagement in the local government. If you plan on investing in that market, get it while the getting is good, but do not stay in it to long. The city has a lot of potential but not enough money in the inner city to support the investment possibilities. The city of Buffalo is a seperate entity from its surrounding suburbs. Most of the money made in the city is returning to the suburbs at 5pm. This has been a problem for as long as I can remember. If you are looking for a long term solid investment look to the surrounding suburbs, There are aparments and Sec 8 buildings hidden there if you know where to look. By all means if you invest in property for the long hall think SECTION 8. Try investing in the South.

I am a property manager in Buffalo, I only deal with properties in my neighborhood ( selling from 20K to 30K) I advise people to buy singles, You can get a terrific single for 20-25k rent it for $650-$700 a month, A decent property manager must of completed a 40 hr real estate course at the very least, I am a community activist and very concerned with having good neighbors especially in my neighborhood, I do criminal background checks and also a search for prior evictions, There are plenty of great investments here, But know what you are doing,Forget buying on Ebay or any other internet auction site, Most are junk that cant sell in any other way.

anyone has comments about Rochester RE?

I would like to know the best towns in the immediate Buffalo suburbs to invest in..Lockport?, Tonawanda?..Lackawana?...ect I'm mostly interested in 2 family units. thanks

Most of the comments about "investing" in Buffalo constitute sucking the last bit of life out of these properties, and then dumping them. This has been one of the biggest problems here. These old houses need extensive rehab, not out of town opportunists laying on a coat of paint & throwing down some cheapo carpeting. Cities such as Buffalo need JOBS, not absentee "investors" who will abandon at the first sign of trouble.

Despite all the negative comments I am finding Buffalo to be an excellent place to invest. We are buying 2 family homes in N. Buffalo for around 90K and renting them for $1150-1300 total a month. We just put one up for rent in the middle of the winter, the week after Christmas, and had no problem renting it to good tenants. I wish I had a few available. Our house showed very well which makes a difference in the tenants you get.

We are finding the market very competitive with good properties selling right away, often with multiple bids. We have seen the prices increase since the summer when we began looking. Investors from aroung the country are discovering you can get positive cash flow here, something that is unheard of in Florida and Virginia where I own properties. The homes I rent in Florida are worth over 300k and bring the same rent as a 90K house in Buffalo. Also there is no bubble here so your downside risk is not that great and average people can afford to buy a home here.
There are ample rehab opportunities here also. Our plan is to live here in one of the 2 family flats during the summer and rehab a few houses which we will then rent or sell.

We don't have the expectation of prices doubling in a few years like we saw in Virginia & Florida, but then noone expected that when we bought there either, but I do see a healthy appreciation rate. My guess is that it is the beginning of a boom here. We plan to stay away from the East and West side where prices are so low they nearly give the houses away. I would like a better chance of collecting the rent without hassle.

I am a Realtor in the WNY area and am looking for people who want to invest in this area. My number is (716)940-2217

im an invester from toronto and are looking into the Buff. market could you advise me on which area is low incrime/vacancy as well Ill need a good manager
Thank You

I recently returned from two weeks in Buffalo ,its really cheap for many o f the reasons already mentioned. I did see a few properties worthwhile including one large project- a warehouse with 57,000 sq ft.

Julie have you ever pre-leased commercial property? Please let me know if you have the ability to do so.



I'm looking to invest in upstate NY-possibly Rochester, Buffalo etc. I will need a good manager and property with good cash flow. Any suggestions?

I have an approximately 14,000 sq ft building on an intersection with 2 acres of land. Zoned commerical in PUD zone. There some damage in the building due to frozen pipes. Have been involved in a battle with the insurance company now I am considering selling the property. If anyone is interested please get back to me. worldbuyer@aol.com

I was born and raised in Buffalo and I still have family there.

It infuriates me to no end to see how such a beautiful city with so many incredible resources continues to be so run by such an incompetent and wasteful government. Yet with the population and demographic shifts, I wonder if it is even possible to hope for a better future for my home town.

Maybe the story of Buffalo will be a literal representation of Atlas Shrugged. One way or another, that city has to change . . .

I spent 6 years in Buffalo getting my bachelor & masters of architecture at UB and have always appreciated the history, architecture & people of Buffalo. I have a project development consulting practice in NYC & I am condsidering real estate deals in Buffalo & Rochester... I am looking for conversion, multi use opportunities where value can be added.

It sounds like alot of people are interested in investing in Buffalo, NY. Try this website, the information is amazing. WNYforeclosuresheet.com

Has anyone thaught about the political structure in the area? I believe that Byron Brown, the new mayor may do good things here. Also, the newly to come seneca nation casino should help the surrounding property values as well as the hopefull creation of a new Bass Pro in the old AUD. I am a budding real estate wanabe and have extensive knowledge and experience in fix it's and renovations. I am hoping in the next two years to be able to put money down on a renter or flipper and start building my own nest egg. Is there anyone out there who might be ineterested in a bird-dogger or renovation helper / skilled worker. I have a day job building custom furnashings but my passion is in home renovation.


contact me if you are serious about renovations realestaestudentofthegame

I am from Los Angeles California, and I am very interested in investing in the Buffalo area on a duplex or triplex type property to build positive cash flow on. Is there someone that can point me to the right direction on a realtor or other services that might be require to pull something like this off where I am on one coast and the property is pretty much on the other coast of the country. Thanks in advance.

REALESTATESTUDENTOFTHEGAME, If you honestly want to build your own nest egg, I can share with you a strategy which will enable you to do so much much earlier than 2 years, try 6 months. Send me your name and phone number and I will contact you ASAP.

My email address is winwinre@earthlink.net

I am an investor and mentor for people who would like to invest in Buffalo. Feel free to contact me. I have many connections with "good" honest reliable people in the area.

Here's my email address for the above post Investorsvcs@aol.com

Theres a website from a group of investors who specialise in sourcing positive cashflow in upstate new york. Check them out www.propertyentrepreneur.co.uk

California Realtor® Here trying to help clients with some equity to invest in Upstate New York, Niagara Falls- Buffalo area has peaked our interest... As everyone has pointed out the THREE key factors seem to be VACANCY/INCOME/CITY POTENTIAL. So much is being said againt Buffalo ... What About that crazy Niagara River and those Falls? What area near Niagara Falls, NY has the best VACANCY/ INCOME/POTENTIAL. Even Syracuse... Useful info can be found at the following link (COPY AND PASTE THE LINK STARTING AT THE HTTP AND END AT HTM http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/03/real_estate/house_price_predictions_for_2006/index.htm

If any one has any helpful info for me... Andrew (regarding Niagara Falls etc) Please email me at AramirezSells@aol.com. or post a follow up post for all the folks to see.

The article says the average price of real estate in Syracuse is expected to rise 8%, and that it is $120,000. I can says that the information in this article is misleading cause it is only in the suburbs that houses typically sells for $120,000. housing in the city may have went up 8% but average only about $50,000. The crime in syracuse is bad, the police don't even show up when you call unless its an absolut emergency, but its even worse in Rochester and Buffalo. As nice as the city once was, the white flight is too great, and these cities and the money they have will leave to the suburbs. What the Bronx was in the early 80's Rochester and buffalo appear to be at today.

While the figures may be misleading to some... It is an average the low end appears to be steadily increasing. Another site that basis prices using more finite data is now shows that the low end housing sector (not the ramshackle piles of rubble) are increasing, though slowly it is steady... Although this article is refering to lansing michigan you should check it out. http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/04/pf/expert/ask_expert/index.htm

the above article also has a link to the The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight. The(OFHEO) was established as an independent entity within the Department of Housing and Urban Development by the Federal Housing Enterprises Financial Safety and Soundness Act of 1992 (Title 13 of P.L. 102-550). http://www.ofheo.gov/HPI.asp In which you can find a calculator that will help to give you an idea of what your home would be worth if the market hadn't surged so insanely.

OFHEO's primary mission is ensuring the capital adequacy and financial safety and soundness of two government-sponsored enterprises (GSEs) -- the Federal National Mortgage Association (Fannie Mae) and the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (Freddie Mac).
That said, here is a link to the calculator that they supply.

Hello Everyone, I have been reading all the comments above and agree with all of them in regards to buffalo being a great place to invest. I'm a part time investor here in buffalo (where I was born,raised, and currently live). I say part time because I just started 2 years ago and already own (4) 2 unit houses on one street in the east side (so called bad part of town) But the funny thing is its not bad if you fix the house and give people a nice place to live. Think about it... if you don't care about your house why should the tenants. I purchased the homes for about 10k each and now I'm receiving about 2,500 a month. Not to bad if you ask me. I wish I had more money to buy more. I have 3 more properties (fully rented) on the same street that I could purchase right now. So if anyone wants to partner up I'd be willing to listen. You supply the money and I'll supply the homes, tenants, repairs, and everything else. If your interested email me at rebel22@adelphia.net

I am a realtor in Western New York, my office is located in Niagara Falls. Last year I started investing in Niagara Falls, and my mother and uncle have been investing in the area for the past 20 years... there is definitely money to be made here. If I can be of assistance to anyone call me at 716-940-4312.

Beware of all the scams on this board. Even the realtors who post and email me- when I give them a specific task - such as to prelease a bldg - they disappear.

I have tried to conact propertyentrepreneur.co.uk several times and received one email saying they could help foreigners with financing these properties in upstate New York, but no repsonses lately. I also phoned them to hear the message "the number you have dialed is incorrect" Their contact details do not appear in BT.com (British telecom). I attend to agree with Steve's words of caution.

I am thinking of moving to the Buffalo area from DFW area of Texas. What areas of Buffalo are the nicest for raising a family? I will be working in Amherst and would like to live fairly close to work. Any Advice?

Any California Real Estate Investers/ Home Owners contemplating selling in the greater Los Angeles or Orange County area Sell while rates are still low and invest in areas like Buffalo that have been appreciating at healthy "slow and steady" way. Anyone interested in Listing in SoCal Area email me at AramirezSells@aol.com

I have several non-performing bank notes on residential properties in the Buffalo area looking to sell as a pool for a great price.
214-749-0033 asap

I am a Mortgage Loan Officer in Western New York. My company works with 65 different lenders, prime, and subprime alike. We do many investor, commercial, residential, jumbo loans, etc. I can be reached toll free at
(866) 855-3303 ext. 113 or at (716) 940-4312.

I was raised in Buffalo, NY and lived there for 15 years. Now I am a Licensd Real Estate Agent Who Represent Sidney Clanton Realty Located on Bailey Street. My best friend is Mayor Byron Brown I stand behind Buffalo and its economic issues. I grew up on the East side of Buffalo. Investors keep in mind that the law has change anyone working in the city of buffalo has to live there. You will see a lot of people living in the Suburban relocating to the East side of Buffalo very soon this is also increasing the property value of the so called (bad areas) new homes are being built and lots of renovation done to the existing dwellings. What does this mean property value goes up so get the propety now while its HOTT. I am not just saying this I an also a small business owner developing a business in the city of buffalo. My dad has owned a Hardware store for over 37 years. You will see a big change in Buffalo soon. Byron Brown is from Jamaica, NY he is bringing a NYC city flavor into Buffalo. Which will influence a tremendous change in the way the city is being run. I own a few properties in Buffalo and Jamaica Queens and Buffalo to me is a GREAT opportunity for investment. Just do not rent ot family. :-) If you need any assistance with finding protential investment properties please email me at tbanks12@juno.com **only serious people email please. Thank You.


Drew,I think Tammy means if you are a City of Buffalo employee, you have to live within the city limits. Even that I would confirm through the City of Buffalo. I am in Orange County (not too far from Whittier). If you are interested in investing in Buffalo I would strongly suggest doing what I did. Visit Buffalo for a few days. Get a feel for the different areas of the city. Find a reputable agent to show you around. Look at as many properties as you can. Some neighborhoods are in pretty rough shape...quite a few boarded up homes. I hope Buffalo has hit bottom and is on its way up again but only time will tell. Good Luck!

Tammy is full of it.
They cant require you to live in the city. Tammy can't even spell most of what she's writing about. There is no evidence that Brown has made any difference in real estate prices. Even if such a rule was legal it would not HELP real estate prices because DUH people would have to sell their suburban houses and that would increase the supply to buy in the ciy. Others who dont want to live in the city would go find jobs somewhere else.

my experience: I moved from CA and bought one 2 units family house last year in Rochester southwedge area for only 80K. I am feeling good with the house and my decision to buy in Rochester- I can rent both of them out for a total about $900 finding tenants easily. I am very happy with the fact that the rent income can cover all the costs, compared to CA - Rochester is almost a heaven except the long winter.

I think I will continue to do more property investment in Rochester.

I use to live in Buffalo for 4 years while attending college, I have purchased one property so far and it has beem great, I am in thee process of trying to get a few more as the first one is a duplex and it is with my future wife who seems to not want anything thing to do with the hastle of a rental property. You can contact me for some advice as well. Anyone giving out loans please contact me as well @ sales@jamaicabuyer.com

I am looking for good paying tenants in Buffalo, NY. I have a large six bedroom, single family home for rent, $500.00 a month cash. Water and Garbage are additional rent. I would be interested in selling on a Rent to Own basis.$28,000.00. So if you know anyone who might be interested please feel free to email me.alishyanna@aol.com Shy Ali.

Well I'll tell you what Buffalo really needs..... Better police and drug enforcement. I used to live in Buffalo and have been here in clearwater ,Fl for the past 13 years. There is no way in hell I would ever consider going back there. The once beutiful homes used to be owned by caring Polish, German, Italian and proud European races..... Now It's littered with "Those people" and lets not sugar coat it... we know what we are talking about. Buffalo will never recover unless you remove the cancer, and the cancer is spreading rapidly. Want to make some money ?? sure can. Buy a city block, demolish all the homes, put up a 20 foot fence, and make it a gated community.

Darren wrote the following: "The once beutiful homes used to be owned by caring Polish, German, Italian and proud European races..... Now It's littered with "Those people" and lets not sugar coat it... we know what we are talking about". I do think I know what he is talking about, and I think he's talking complete crap. Darren needs to take a sociology class or two. Perhaps he could read a few books, too. It has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with the opportunity afforded people of certain racial groups. People of European descent don't have the legacy of slavery weighing them down. Middle-class white society has forever taken for granted that because we have (at least relatively) rich parents, we have more tools at our fingertips, accounting for why we "make it", and others don't. For God's sake, our distant ancestors pretended to own their distant ancestors! We have not come far enough to erase this fact. Things today are still very troublesome for many minorities. Suburban migration patterns, coupled with the capital flow that accompanies it, has left an interesting binary in place: rich/white/suburban communities with good schools to prepare their children for their high-tech future; and the other side of the story: poor/ethnic/urban communities with a revolving door of teachers (trying to make it out to better-paying suburban schools), and kids trying to learn in school while their family experiences economic hardship (and the slew of accompanying problems connected to it) because of entry-level job loss from outsourcing! Think buffalo. Think northeastern industrial city, with many opportunities for the working class. Think where would you move if you lived in the Jim Crow south and were black? The border between the U.S. and Canada makes perfect sense! Hence Detroit, also. Think of the auto industry abandoning America. Think of the ability of the middle class to exit buffalo, and leave it to suffer in agony. Think of exactly who suffers in agony. Think of the current suburbs in comparrison to the city of buffalo? Why, really, are we blaming black and hispanic people? We should be blaming a combination of ourselves, for never caring enough to change a thing about this situation, and our politicians for letting neoliberal/neoconservative economic schemes demolish the future of entry-level job sustainability in the our country. If you're still blaming black people for our societies' problems, you have never opened your eyes; you're still asleep, and people who sleeptalk never have anything important to say. Heed the warning and keep the incoherent grumbling to yourself.

P.S. I'm considering moving to Buffalo. I don't care if my property is worth anything. I'll either open a business to help stimulate the community I live in, or go get my PhD in urban sociology and set the stage for change with whatever innovative research I can offer to help Buffalo right it's course.

Also, did you know we disinvested in Education at about the same rate we invested in prison systems? Really, Darren, you're completely off the mark.

I think daren is right. The law enforcement in buffalo spends too much time looking for people talking on cell phones, duis and rolling through stop signs. Did you know Buffalo,ny is one of the top ten cities in the US in regards to drug arrests? I don't see any pollocks hitting the crack pipe behind the tool shed!

Get Real PETE!! The City of Buffalo is turning into a shithole! The big industrys are gone. Unfortunatly Buffalo will never be what it was 50 years ago. What motivational factor would compell someone to move to the City I ask you?

The people of Buffalo are more friendly than many other cities. The sad truth is that the city is turning into the asshole New York State.

Don't invest in Buffalo, if you don't want to be stuck with a worthless property.
My husband is a pilot and I'm a designer and we move once a year to a different state. I buy a house, fix it and sell it and usually make good money on it. Here, I bought a foreclosed house in Amherst (one of USA's top 5 safest towns, in a great neighborhood) for $80000, put $45000 in hardwood floors, mosaic bathrooms, plumbing, roofing and such... and I'll be lucky if I can get my money back out, now that we have to move...
Forget Buffalo unless you're moving there anyway!

I posted a whole new section in follow-up to my original post's responses. It is not up here. It was posted quite a few days ago. It was posted before the last time-stamped entry was, too. Fishy! Very, very fishy! Can you say censorship, everybody?

P.S. I didn't start the racial dialogue. I just decided not to let that ugly post that blamed "those people" linger without a detractor's point of view. Given, I could have kept more composure, but I don't think I've shown more ire than people like buzzcut have on this blog. One has to ask, is it simply because my ideology is at odds with the host?

Pete you sign like a pencil pushing cry-baby. I am a gulf war veteran, my father a WWII veteran. Don't diss daren. My firm belief is that the people that truly fight for this county, are the people that truly love this country. Jose wasn't dodging AK-47 rounds with me in bagdad.

Name-calling, aye Ted? Thank you for serving my country in battle. No thanks, however, for thinking that because you served that I should never question anything you say, or by default, anything your friends say too. P.S. Did you know that conservative Republicans repeatedly vote to cut your veterans benefits? Finally, love for this country can be measured in many ways. My love for this country is measured in my desire to work to fix the many things I think have gone wrong with it, as opposed to simply leaving the country (as many more hard-nosed conservatives tell me to do). However, if you believe that a love for one's country is measured in their willingness to go to battle for it, then you surely have no problem with black people, right? They have always been some of the most ardent patriots, and are a HUGE presence in our military. So, if you believe what you say about military service, you really can't defend what Darren is saying because then you contradict yourself. Finally, insulting people for their intellect is a huge problem in the inner-city. If people feel like they're going to be harrassed for their hard work, they probably won't exercise the initiative to do so. Case in point: young black intellectuals being told they are "acting white" by their street-element peers. Discussed this heavily last fall in an African Studies class. As for me, I worked construction for 6 years part time while going to school, so I find your choice insults to be highly ironic. I've never set foot near an office as an employee. I know, more than likely, it's your own insecurities that lead you to insult me, so I need not take them to heart. Lesson to be learned here, Ted: not all liberals are spineless, some of us will hate right back at ya, but with a hell of a lot more wit than you ever bargained for.

P.S. Being that my last post went up without a hitch, I'm thinking the missing post of mine was more than likely a glitch or error in the system. I apologize for getting all worked up about that.

The hypothetical "Jose" you speak of is witnessing America Panic over the prospect of having to potentially offer him citizenship. He likely understands the racial contempt among many Americans for his people, and doesn't like this. I can't blame the hypothetical "him". He simply wants to provide food and clothing for his family, sees the destruction NAFTA and CAFTA caused on his opportunities at doing this in Latin America, and responded by coming to work in America. Would you fight for a country that desolated many of your economic opportunities, forcing you to live amongst people that were trying to legislate you into a criminal? Probably not. I wouldn't. Case closed. Next, please.

The last one, above, was mine. Forgot to post my name.

Pete I have no problem with blacks whatsoever. I have more of a problem with you, and your whining like you had your lolipop taken away from you! Further more you couldn't hold a candle to me, and if you did Id snap your arm in two. I have a flight to catch, you get back to wasting time on posting your views on your views. I bet you kiss a mirror every night you go to bed.

YEah! give it a rest PETE! Stop putting down US VETS!!

I have served in the Army on active duty for the past 21 years. Anyone who has worn a uniform and doesn't recognize the strenght we draw from being a multi-cultural organization is blind. I have served in Kuwait, Iraq and Kosovo and have never deployed anywhere without a cross-section of America represented. I don't care what fictional name you give someone, their race was serving in that conflict.
The melting pot of America is represented at it's best in the military and for those who don't think so.. I thank you for serving and I thank you for leaving because our Army is better for it.
By the way, soldiers who served in the Gulf War were liberating Kuwait and resoring the international border. We didn't go to Bagdad until Operation Iraqi Freedom. So anyone who served in the Gulf War wasn't "dodging AK-47 rounds in Bagdad" as Ted claimed.

Our involvement in this war is ridiculous. Our presence in the middle east will only bring about more hatred of the U.S. and terror related crimes. Young people today don't give a damn about what our fathers did for our Freedom. I'm moving to Canada.

Forunately there are flights leaving every day!

Hey Pete!! WOW..! I wrote that comment as a joke my friend! You folks are a little touchy up there, must be too much snow!!

rage on War monger steve!!!!

Buffalo is a horrible place to live. It was actually rated in the top ten worst cities to visit. Look at the horrible waterfron there. Every other city in the U.S. markest and develops there waterfront. Buffalo's looks like a landfill.

check this out....www.urbandictionary.com/define

there's nothing wrong with the waterfront, what are you talking about.. there are miles of access (downtown, the blackrock neighborhood, Tonawanda, the marina downtown, etc), and places to row, sail etc. Yeah there are some grain elevators but that's a different part of the city... all cities with waterfronts have industrial areas.

Check out
http://www.buffalorising.com for photos and news on what's coming up in Buffalo these days.

Buffalo's got waterfront, recreation, countryside, a city vibe, bar district, niagara falls, fishing, boating, skiing, nightclubs, farmers markets, universities, strip clubs, restaurants, churches, great houses, basically all you could want in a city.. except the "buzz" is that it sucks and everyone wants out. What it needs is a FLUSH to flush out everyone who thinks it sucks.. and then some fresh people with positive attitudes can move in an revitalize the place and enjoy it for what it is... Personally I left because all the other young people left. Now, I think hey that city has a hell of a lot of natural amenities and great housing..

yeah it's cold as hell but so are Minneapolis, Chicago, Toronto.. and I'm sure a bunch of other places for that matter but people still move there and people still like those places, so it's not the cold...

I recently bought a 2-family in Lockport for $47500; and it is a fairly nice house but much to my dismay not one of the better parts of town. Anyway, the same house in my location (Central Massachusetts) would be about $260000. The Massachusetts market has finally gone flat so I guess if I can get a 5-8% annual appreciation on the Lockport home I should be happy but......AM I DREAMING??? Ten years from now will that house be worth just what I paid for it???

Buffalo needs more Mexicans to kick start the economy


You may be dreaming. Check historical valuations and trends in Buffalo. I think many areas have been very stagnant (or declining) in value over the years. HOWEVER the rental income from the property may still make it profitable for you, that's up to you to determine.

But, now that you are bought in and have an investment in Buffalo, it's in your best interest to see the city and state turn around and succeed. So you might want to spread the word that Buffalo is a great place to live, or if you think that it isn't, you might want to get politically active to try to turn around New York's bad business climate. Check http://www.unshackleupstate.com for steps to take revitalize upstate NY. NY was second last in population growth, showing a loss of some 26,000 people in one year from 2004-2005. It is also ranked in the bottom ten of state business tax climates by the tax foundation - meaning business people don't like it very much - meaning they leave - meaning they don't stay, expand, succeed, and hire people. Therefore, no jobs.

But, Buffalo is a beautiful place, and it has the soul of a great city.. but something underneath really has to change in order for the place to come back. It has to get more competitive and attractive to business people, and people have to speak up to get Albany to see that. The political machine from NYC is pouring millions of dollars into politicians and candidates to keep the unions and state employees and lawyers and similar types in power. What they need is to hear that they will be voted out, despite their powerful moneyed connections, if they don't take real steps to allow upstate NY to determine it's own future and compete on a level playing field with the Atlantas, Denvers, Las Vegas's, and other highly-competitive business locales.

So do something about it, and speak up.

Yeah buffalo is a nice city and the problem with it is the old people with the old money and the old mentality that do not want change.Anyone that invests in real estate in Buffalo is insane. Go south where you get a 15 to 20% increase yearly verses nothing in buffalo. And if you have kids don't even think of sending them to public schools in Buffalo, it sucks!! There are New York State Troopers on every corner in western new York and FOR WHAT?! Making 60-70K a year looking for people talking on cell p hones and other meaningless infractions. Forcing people that work in the city of buffalo to have to live in the CITY?!! Now thats is total bull! That tells you something right there! Location Location Location!!! PLEASE, Buffalo had its day and its gone. Dom't Boo HOO and whine. There is no compelling motivational factor to move to Buffalo,NY.

I was born in Buffalo, (grew up in NF) and experienced first hand what Buffalo and NF was really like. Generally, there were two types of people there, ones that sold drugs, and ones that smoked it. I was one of the very few people who did neither, so I moved to VA in 1995, looking for a better enviroment (I found it). I am fortunate now to have $$ to invest in property and would love to invest back "home". However, when I visit NF once a year, I see many of my old friends who are now on drugs, and or selling it. Even the stores and business's that were open before, are now just abandoned buildings. Sadly things have gotten worse. However after talking to people in that area, trying to figure what their needs were, the answer was always the same..."MORE JOBS, LESS DRUGS". With these two changes, I think Buffalo can be saved and become a better city than it ever was... First, there needs to be more jobs available. More businesse's should consider expanding to Buffalo. Don't just invest in their real estate but invest in Buffalo business. With better job opportunity, comes higher population, and then comes better living standards. Second, there needs to be the biggest crack down on drug abuse (no pun intended). The drug abuse has been going on for far too long. Drug dealers and users are not hiding their bad habit either, in fact they are very obvious...what are the cops doing up there? As I said it ten years ago, I'll say it again... "The cops in upstate NY, don't arrest a "brother" until they think he's infected enough brothers with that poison first". Think about it.

Point: As much as I would love to invest back "home", I will not until I see the start of these two changes... MORE JOBS, LESS DRUGS. I advise the same to you.

I was born in Buffalo, (grew up in NF) and experienced first hand what Buffalo and NF was really like. Generally, there were two types of people there, ones that sold drugs, and ones that smoked it. I was one of the very few people who did neither, so I moved to VA in 1995, looking for a better enviroment (I found it). I am fortunate now to have $$ to invest in property and would love to invest back "home". However, when I visit NF once a year, I see many of my old friends who are now on drugs, and or selling it. Even the stores and business's that were open before, are now just abandoned buildings. Sadly things have gotten worse. However after talking to people in that area, trying to figure what their needs were, the answer was always the same..."MORE JOBS, LESS DRUGS". With these two changes, I think Buffalo can be saved and become a better city than it ever was... First, there needs to be more jobs available. More businesse's should consider expanding to Buffalo. Don't just invest in their real estate but invest in Buffalo business. With better job opportunity, comes higher population, and then comes better living standards. Second, there needs to be the biggest crack down on drug abuse (no pun intended). The drug abuse has been going on for far too long. Drug dealers and users are not hiding their bad habit either, in fact they are very obvious...what are the cops doing up there? As I said it ten years ago, I'll say it again... "The cops in upstate NY, don't arrest a "brother" until they think he's infected enough brothers with that poison first". Think about it.

Point: As much as I would love to invest back "home", I will not until I see the start of these two changes... MORE JOBS, LESS DRUGS. I advise the same to you.

You are so right. The police in buffalo love to look the other way when it comes to drugs. But if they see you talking on the cell phone they will write you a ticket like there is no tomorrow. Western NY is saturated with New York State troopers that have nothing to do. Every time I go to Western NY I see them hiding all over the place trying to catch people for minor infractions. I have been in almost every major city in the U.S. and I can honestly tell you I have really never seen such a lack of law enforcement where its needed most. Buffalo is unfortunatly in a downward spin, and I do not believe it will ever recover. If you do wish to invest in real estate in the Western Ny area here is a good tip....go to Ellicottville,NY. It is small ski resort community that is steadily growing with home values increasing 8 to 10% annualy. The drug and crime rate is almost zero, and its close to Buffalo if you ever need a dime bag or your crack pipe repaired.

I just visited buffalo to specifically look @ R.E. inv. I got some directions from the fire house on baily st to get around a soap box derby street closure.he sent me through " the jungle" as he called it. down sycamore st to miller st to broadway. he told me not to stop @ the red lights. I was amazed, the place was deserted, two old white skid row bums & a white dude w/ a pony tail cutting through a vacant lot. that was it. the area did look hard & I wouldn't buy anything there, but a far cry from the ghettos of DC & baltimore.

Yea Buffalo might be declining but, there are still some nice apartments for rent and sale. I should know I have some nice apts still available in the City of Buffalo. alishyanna@aol.com 716-894-6039.

After a great deal of research and figure crunching. My investors have decided on 2 SFRs in McAllen, TX and 1 vacation Condo in South Padre Island, TX. Anyone investing the South is the way to go.

I am a commercial real estate agent in Buffalo. I can say with certainty that the Buffalo market is steadily improving.

I have recently received a long list (104 projects) of large projects very recently completed, in progress and planned, in the city alone. The total amount of the development is $1,763,756,451. This list includes developments such as a 20-story condo tower at Gates Circle in the Delaware District where the developer is asking for $400,000 for one-bedroom condos and $2,000,000 for a penthouse suite. The preliminary design has just been completed and the penthouse is already gone, along with many one and two bedroom units.

Along with that, an out-of-town investor has come and bought the Statler building and is converting it to 263 condos, a 5-star hotel and retail. That project has started. AM&A's is currently being converted into 250 apartments. A 50-story tower is currently in the process of being designed. It will consist of condos at the top, a hotel and offices. M&T is building a 7-story office building on Delaware. Blue Cross Blue Shield is building a 450,000SF office building on W. Genesee. Paladino is building an 11-story office building ion Court Street. Termini is continuing to build apartments on Ellicott Street, totaling 200 apartments. Ansonia Center is being converted to condos.

I could go on for hours here.

The Eastside, Black Rock and Riverside are struggling. North Buffalo, University, Delaware, Elmwood Village, Allentown districts are all growing. South Buffalo is stable.

It would be appreciated if people would stop talking about things in which they do not know or understand. This ignorance is what has kept Buffalo behind for so long.

Also, do any of you, or have any of you ever lived in Buffalo, or even seen the city? You seem to have a lot of opinions about Buffalo, but can't support them.

Buffalo is a great city to live in. I have lived in other cities like Seattle, Chicago and Pittsburgh, and would go nowhere else but Buffalo again. I too was told by fellow Buffalonian's to leave. They told me that everywhere else is better than Buffalo. WHAT A JOKE! Big city amenities are readily available in Buffalo, but you feel as if you are in a small city.

The first annual Buffalo Old Home Week was held a short time ago. It attracted almost 1,000 people who used to live in Buffalo and want to move back. The program offered a job fair, festivities, tours of the New Buffalo and Old Buffalo and plenty more over three days. Since the program ended, 20 attendees have relocated back to Buffalo, and surely more are to come.

I was recruited back to Buffalo from Pittsburgh and I have had friends find jobs here with absolutely no problem. If you have an education and are looking for a job, you could find one here as well. If you are looking for a job in manufacturing, Buffalo (or the Northeast as a whole) isn't the best place for you. If you are looking for one in the life sciences, trade, banking, defense, IT, etc, come here.

Also, State Troopers don't patrol Buffalo, only the thruways. The Buffalo Police take care of the city, and drugs and crime are no more of a problem here than they are in most other comparable cities. Look at the latest crime reports. Buffalo is one of the safest large cities in America.

Again, false information from people who have no idea.

OK Craig at least you know some of the neighborhoods, however just because people buy and sell property doesnt mean the city is thriving because it isnt. Every demographic and economic study I have seen shows continued decline.

Having said that, there are some pretty and cheap bldgs that are a work of art for very little money. Some have been vacant forever and Id love to buy one when I visit again Oct 20-7. Crime is a bit worse than most major cities but its manageable. The real problem for investors is TAXES. An economically obsolete warehouse on the water is taxes at $24,000 per year. That same valuation in TX would be taxed at about $5000.

Rather than agree or argue with you let me ask you some specific questions and test your knowledge so to speak.

What do you see as the long term prospects for the areas near the waterfront-- Black Rock and Riverside. Why are they in decline? Is the city office of Taxation reasonable? If they assess a bldg at $550,000 and it sells for $350k will they adjust the valuation? What do you think of the old warehouse bldgs all along lower Niagara st from say the 1000 block to breckenridge? What about the Niagara St area from 1700-2400?

I agree people shouldnt discus what they dont understand but at this point Id like to see what you know and what your opinion is-- many others have mentioned specific real estate so Im sure Im not the only one who would be interested in your detailed response. Thanking you in advance Steve Fischer

Just found this site today. I am retiring and moving to Buffalo from Juneau, Alaska, next May. My wife is from South Buffalo, while I am originally from San Francisco, but have lived in Alaska for most of my adult life. I met my wife here and we have been visiting her (huge) Irish family in Buffalo for many years, during all seasons and sometimes for extended stays. I was astonished when I first went there. I expected it to be like its reputation - a dirty, dreary, freezing slum. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is charming, beautiful, but in places shockingly ecologically damaged (Lackawana). It has wonderful ethnic neighborhoods and culture, but it has "hoods" and slums. But it has gorgeous countryside in WNY, and in town you see stately mansions and grand buildings, parks all over the place, and warm, friendly people. It is inexpensive, has terrrifc restaurants and amusements for which you almost never wait in lines, and it's just plain fun, with constant ethnic "doings" going on. I excited to be moving there and am certain Buffalo will be a great place to live. I do agree with those who have said that the taxes there, especially property taxes, are ridiculously high. It is killing the city and the economy. It made me think twice, believe me. What WNY has done is "converted" their real estate into tax flows. Purchase prices are low, taxes are high. If you run a PV calculation on cost of purchase + tax flow, you will find that prices there are comparable to other non-coastal cities. It's just that half the value goes to the local, corrupt government. The corrupt part is true, but generally accepted as a fact of life to folks in WNY. Buffalo could be fixed easily - throw the bums out, lower the taxes, and send all the illegal Mexicans you can find in to refurbish the city and buld a vital economy. A new ethnic group should be just fine, they have so many, and they need folks willing to work!

I'm doing some research on Buffalo Real Estate. I think I found a great resource here! I live in Florida but used to live in South Buffalo.

I am real estate investor in Boston and am seriously looking into the Buffalo market. I looking to invest in properties already rented, good condition and area of town. Let me know

I represent a group of investors that came to Buffalo a few years ago. We have had nothing but problems. We are part of a larger group who have had limited if any success in the region at all. The bottom line that we distilled from these four years is that there are so many kinds of problems that can occur in Buffalo that any investor is likely to run into a high number of them every year. For us it was simply not worth out time or money. When we left we went to Meridian Idaho, Dallas - Fort Worth Texas and Austin... where everything has gone well and profits have been far better.

I think my most distinct memory of the hundreds of people I met in Buffalo is the noticable lack of personal morality or business ethics. There is a real "screw or be screwed" attitude in that city. Frankly if it would not pollute the ocean I would love to see Buffalo flushed down the Saint Laurnece... nasty town... our advice invest elsewhere.

I've heard rumors the government is making offers to aquire properties in the area of the proposed Peace Bridge expansion (Niagara street etc.). Can anyone confirm if this really happening?

I think that most people on the site are just thinking that they can invest in the general area of Buffalo and make out...not so...you must do your own market analysis and due diligence...I have invested in buffalo for over 3 years and have done very well...you must have the right equation...if you don't you will fail...if you go into a good area one equation...a really bad or average area another equation...get your head in the game and know your business...

The people in Buffalo are nice, but the city is a terd hole. Jobs suck as does the weather. I would not invest a penny in that city. Big industrys made that city and now they are all gone.

Anyone hear about this Mgmt Company in Buffalo that sell houses for around $50k, then guarantee a return, and will take a 10% of the rent collected. Chris

I've come across something similar. Keep far away from anyone that "Guarantees" a return.

I have read all the messages listed on this site and I must say that we all have to look at the potential opportunity in Buffalo. Take into account realestate pricess throughout the United States. With the cost of housing at record levels Buffalo could be a good place for a inexpensive summer home. The city is central to the east coast and the mid west and your mortgage will be cheaper than what a person will pay in a one room effecientcy in south florida. I guess the major problem in the area is employment. Because if a job boom hit that area trust me you will not be getting homes for 10,20,30,40 or 50 grand. So it appears the economic problem must be solve to bring "REAL" realestate growth to the area. We must all remember the industrial age 50/60 years ago is what had the city Booming.

I too am an investor and have been seriously looking for property in Buffalo (particularly Amherst-UB area). According to CNN,MSN.COM and Moody's.com Syracuse, Buffalo and Rochester all rank in the top 10 cities to survive the RE market in 2007.

However... it would be nearly insane to think that a home in Buffalo will build equity. For example my home in Queens, NY (1.5 Million dollar home) purchased for 60K in the 80's costs me only 1800 in annual taxes. Property taxes in the Erie Cty...and especially Amherst/Williamsville
would cost me 5K-15K and with a market that has been stagnant, in decline or projeected to finanlly grow at the rate of inflation..... I can only conclude that if I we're to buy in Buffalo it would be only to own properties like 4 family plus homes that could generate rental income b/c I would be just another fool hoping that the industrial revolution will return to buffalo.

When I lived in Buffalo 3 yrs back ---- I HOPED for GROWTH ---
Whether it was a CASINO, EXPANDING THE RAILRD or AIRPORTS, A NEW PEACE BRIDGE or BASS PRO-SHOP... the only growth I found in my old home town was a damp piece of mold.

Hey Michelle,

Don't you think buying a 25K single family might be risky?
Granted I could by the home on my mastercard, you would still need to cover taxes which would be approx 2 to 3 months of paid rent, possibly repair and hold 100% occupied to sustain a gain in addition to hoping that the people you rent to can re-pay especially with a average median hshld income of 25,000 in the city.

Lastly... I have another fear.
Can you sell a 25K home assuming your can't rent it? or you renters don't pay?

Fortune magazine just listed the best and worst real estate markets in the US based on projected price increase or decrease. Rochester(7) and Syracuse(5) ranked in the top 10 with expected growth in sales prices of single family homes of at least 4% in 2007 and the same for 2008. Buffalo is not far from the top of the list--probably because these markets didn't see the growth seen in other major markets (Florida, NYC, Boston, etc.) Smart investors could buy positive cash flow rental units that will soon soon show increased value. With increased value you could refinance and buy another or resell and 1031 (roll over) the profits into a larger rental complex tax free. Do your research and buy in good areas and you should see growth in the next few years.

Here's the link to the Fortune article listing Buffalo as the #3 most promising market (for projected price growth in 2007 and 2008) in the Northeast and the #14 for the US overall.


Buffalo is a trash pit, and raising kids there should be considered child abuse. But seriously, unless American manufacturing, including the steel industry, somehow is reborn in the area, and if they shut down the St. Lawrence Seaway down such that the Erie Canal ceases to be a useless historical artifact and becomes necessary for commerce, then, yes, Buffalo will be reborn. In other words, it ain't never gonna happen, folks. And its just a matter of time before you lose your beloved Bills--the biggest choke NFL team in the league's history. When Mr. Wilson, who doesn't even live in Buffalo anyway, checks out, you can say goodbye to your team, you losers. You guys don't even rate with New Orleans post-Katrina. Want to meet an intelligent, well-rounded and affable person from Buffalo? Just go to New York City, Boston, DC, San Francisco, Philly or LA, because anyone that has anything at all going for them leaves your so-called city in a heartbeat. And all you have left is low-rent, white-trash, mouth-breathing and incompetent human capital--just what business doesn't want, except maybe Wal-Mart.

So continue to hinge your hopes upon warmed over and decades old development plans, a low-cost of living fueled only by the fact that you have lost more than half of your population and no one wants to live there, and idiotic notions that a hunting and fishing supply retailer will bring untold riches to your town. So mired are you in ignorance, the only thing you have going for you is being unable to see what a shambles you are as compared to the rest of the country. Buffalo, you are a DEAD TOWN.

Oh, and as for Buffalonians being so friendly, that so-called friendliness is only borne out of a needy desperation to be recognized as having value by outsiders, when there is in reality no value to be had.

I have been doing alot of research and the situation in Buffalo has not changed despite the cheerleaders on this forum who say different..I would bet the people on here who are touting Buffalo as the cashflow capital are real estate brokers or even worse the surge of idiotic Californians who bought site unseen and overpaid for these clapboard dumps..Buffalo has many problems besides socialist governments,no corporations for gainful employment,sky high property taxes in relation to the property cost,increasingly bad drug areas,lead paint in just about every house,violation after violation on these homes by city inspectors to out of state owners,huge vacancy rates,high unemployment,propety managers that might as well carry guns because they rob their clients out of money and much more and to defend themselves from thir lowlife tenants..The problem is drugs and crime are rampant..The police are too busy giving out cellphone tickets to drivers instead of fighting crime in the drug areas..Best part if you do a search you will find tons of *gurus* selling this junk real estate when in fact these clowns are buying foreclosed or delinquent taxed property for near nothing and *dressing up the pig* for a quick sale to an unsuspecting out of town buyer..To make matters worse most if not all the property managers in Buffalo are thieves,they will charge you for vacancies,they will deliberately put bad tenants in the apartments knowing full well they will default and cause an eviction..This way they charge the home owner for evictions,repairs,renting apartment fees,vacancies the list goes on and on..You get what you pay for in these areas and homes are cheap for a reason..The only thing upstate NY is used for is prisons,colleges,and white trash losers who couldn't hack in it the NYC/5 boroughs..I have no clue why people just don't buy REITS if they are so hellbent on investing real estate..I might ever use hard earned cash and expose myself to the games that are going on upstate NY..All Buffalo and Rochester have become is a breeding ground for con artists and thieves..Mention that you live in the state but in the real city *NYC* and see how fast a property manager will talk you out of buying up there..Reason being they know you are only a short trip up to bust their thieving ass for ripping you off..They want OUT OF STATE cash buyers,easy to screw someone that is 5000 miles away..STAY AWAY FROM UPSTATE NY..

Why not promote the entry of SCOTTISH just like canada? There is a large percentage of self employed in scotland. Not because they want to but because the prices of houses for first time buyers is out of this planet and the basic wage is a joke, people have no choice but to go it alone. Bringing the scottish over would not only fill some boots but help boost economy. They are hard workers and we don't mind the snow! Plus the bitterness between the scottish and the english still stands strong. Various goverment legistations are aimed at the scots which is not helping. They would provide a warmth and a brave heart to the community. One to think about.

Why not bring some Somali refugees? Hamilton, Ontario got wise and finally dumped the white only policies of the past in an attempt to copy Toronto. Good immigrants from any where have family values and work hard and do well for where they live. I would love my children to learn many languages as long as they are not drugs and STDs. Speaking of taxes, Ontario charges 8% and the Canadian govt 6%, for which we get healthcare, clean streets, low crime (hardly see a cop or rarely hear a siren in Toronto or Hamilton). In this world you get what you pay for, go cheap and then live with the worry about health care and crime... ah, schools too! Pay for it and you can have a Toronto.

I am actually here as I would like to move to Binghampton to take up a job... should I rent or buy for three years? We are a couple right now...


From what I see... Low housing prices and high taxes, Buffalo is a mess and is not going anywhere. I would not invest a $1 in that hell hole. You can dream all you want about the cheap house prices but they are cheap for a reason, because no one wants them!!!

I have had rentals in Buffalo for 24 years now. I have struggled, had houses that I couldn't have gotten a dollar for...but it is a great city...and yes, it is improving...very slowly...I own on the lower west side of Buffalo...and because the houses are in the revitilization area by the Peace Bridge the cops are constantly keeping watch of the drug dealers...and yes, I will keep investing here...

Our problem in this COUNTY is the politicians and very generous welfare system...

Feel free to invest down south...as for me...this is a good area...give your negative remarks...every city has them...we have the Great Lakes...the Falls and Canada...we're not going down..we hit rock bottom a while ago....

First off, let me start by saying that I grew up in Buffalo and currently reside there. I have , over the past 15 years, lived in a long list of cities including Newport Beach, CA, Manhattan, Tampa Bay, Miami, Austin, Phoenix. And I can summarily tell you that without a doubt, investing your capital in real estate in Buffalo is a fool's errand. I returned to the area to be closer to family, but pay a dear and heavy price. The area is encumbered by oppressive, almost unconstitutional tax rates , unwieldy, inefficient bloated local, city and state government, an anti-business sentiment, a collective population and economy that refuses to believe that it is no longer the industrial breadbasket of a burgeoning world power at the turn of the 19th century. The area has failed to assume the burden of transforming its local economy and infrastructure to that of a 21st Century metropolis. The young and bright flee the area, physician shortages are expected, government employees abound with their bloated paychecks and benefits packages despite offering no tangible goods to the economy. Owning rental property here is particularly fraught with peril... Older structures from the turn of the century, sure to have foundational problems, lead paint issues, lower than average rents, pitiful anemic appreciation rates, horrific cash flow consuming property tax rates and more serve as warning signs to would be investors. Sure, its cheap, but as others have said on here. its cheap for a reason. Businesses are not flocking to the area, corruption is rampant. The population is aging and shrinking. Tax burdens are the biggest downward pressure on prices here.. yet no one will realize this basic economic fact.. justification is often sought in that we have higher levels of service here.. mmm anyone wait in line at the dmv... go to the county courthouse.. drive on a pot hole ridden road.. lately? The hopes of a region rest on a fishing and hunting store.. step back and think about that for a moment... then you will get an idea of the plight and desperation of the region.. It is being run into the ground by simpletons, corrupt self aggrandizing government officials and a complacent yielding populace. Stay away... trust me.. stay away.. do what I do.. fly to Texas, Utah, Colorado, North Carolina, South Carolina, Arizona , New Mexico.. seek highly appreciating, currently undervalued markets with huge upside potential, growth friendly governments, favorable tax structures and other enticing tidbits... Just my two cents...I await my flogging...

I am an investor and considering buying in Buffalo due to the low prices and in anticipation of future growth. It appears to me that at some point the water front will become a HUGE growth opportunity for the city. Are there any signs of this becoming a reality? I have seen where developers are taking the older building in the city and turning them into up-scale rentals for condos and businesses. But I will agree that there are a lot of homes for sale and it does make you wonder why people are selling if rentals are doing so good.

Search other areas of the US and see how many 50k homes you see that are near NYC/Boston, a subway, waterfront, and major universites(2nd largest city in NY).
I dont know Buffalo per se but on Long Island a house IN the hood costs 300-400k. Yeah you can get plenty of retail and construction work but you cant afford to eat and pay rent. You earn just enough to borrow, still. As these are absolute necessities I think its easy for people in less fancy regions to take for granted the benefits they do, however regrettably, have. Investor psychology touts that cycles are more or less guaranteed. With that said I love the idea that people hate that region because as their are both under and over-valued markets, they tend to revert back to the mean. That understanding alone makes NWY a place to consider.
Live cheap, get your school in, opportunity is beautiful.

Cycles, Remember there is a great difference between undervalued and stagnant. The latter being the situation here in WNY. I know this firsthand. Inefficient, self aggrandizing government officials, a psychology of economic paralysis, and a maladaptive workforce all undermine the forces that work for the better in other cities. Yes, you can buy a property for 50K. Yes that is cheapter than other areas.. But remember one thing, that 50K property is going to be worth 50K or less ten years from now, sans tenant replacement costs, lead paint removal, asbestos cleanup, crushing tax burdens and shrinking rental base. Waterfront.. visit sometime.. get a view of the post apocalyptic eastern european wasteland that is south buffalo and lackawanna. Opportunity is beautiful indeed, just not in WNY.

I have owned 6 duplexes in Buffalo for the past 3 years. All within 2 blocks of UB South Campus, where there is a surplus of renters, and where I would consider to be the best rental market in Buffalo because the visiting students actually seem to have more money than the vast majority of people that actually work and live in Buffalo.

All of my houses offer great cash flow. In that, renting 1 floor of the house more than covers the mortgage payment.

The thing that I did not count on is the ongoing cost of repairs for older houses. Between plumbing, electrical, and the insane amount of tests and abatement procedures that they require whenever you work on a house with lead paint and/or asbestos, it's expensive. Keep in mind that practically every house in the city of Buffalo has lead paint in it. Even with signed waivers, there is still the potential for lawsuits.

In every software spreadsheet that I had prior to investing in Buffalo, there was no calculation that would have forecast maintenance at an average cost of 8% of the homes value every year.

There are 2 aspects of rental houses.
(1) Income - cash flow over and above expenses
(2) Appreciation - increase in value over time

As we all know, Buffalo houses do not appreciate. The prices are very subjective, and basically 2 identical houses side by side can sell for vastly different amounts. I used to do mortgages in Buffalo, so I know firsthand that the way homes are appraised is totally biased towards whatever the lender is asking for.

That leaves us with cash flow. For the past 3 years I have poured money into houses to update them and maintain them. With a roof job costing $10,000 + (that's 20% of the cost of the home!!!), and many repairs to the aged lines that connect the homes to the city sewer (Averaging about $2600 per repair).

My advice on investing in Buffalo is ... DON'T.

Did I mention the ongoing lawsuit that I have because The Gas Company dug up the sidewalk to fix a gas line of theirs and left a 4 foot deep, 3 foot wide crater in my yard and left it unfilled for 14 weeks. An 8 year old rode her bike into it.

That's what you can expect from the City of Buffalo, that and higher property taxes, 20% year over year increases in water and sewer bill costs, and plenty of surcharges for people that own investment properties.

Couldnt have said it any better DaveNY.


I bought a few months ago in Buffalo and yes, I was an out of state investor. I saw photos of the property and went for it. Purchased two single family homes in the east and west side of Buffalo. Had problems with the seller after i bought it. The tenants he brought in stopped paying a month after i purchased the property. They wine and complain about everything. It's been a nightmare investing in Buffalo because i'm not there. It's true you can get good cash flow for these properties, but if there's a lot of repairs, it can cost you more than the purchase price. Then there's the high water bills i'm forced to pay because of the old rental agreement. I still believe that buffalo is a good investment, once you fix up the properties, people will come. At that point you just have to screen them and find good tenants.

I think it's a 50/50 odds, some do good with it and some don't.

Sounds like a worst-of-times/best-of-times scenario. Sure - renting in the current environment may be touchy, but ownership 15 yrs from now may make it all worthwhile. Corruption is becoming a thing of the past, and immigrant opportunities -as others have mentioned- are ripening. With snow becoming a rare commodity in other locales of similar latitude, I'm betting the market goes nowhere but up. Anyone know of a good agent?

I am a real estate attorney here in Buffalo. 1-716-875-4640 is my office number for anyone who is thinking about investing in Buffalo and wants to chat about it, or send me some email. davidhaefner@hotmail.com

It's been said before and I will say it again, Location, Location, Location! Its makes all the difference, especially in Bufffalo where neighboorhoods can change from street to street.

Yes, Buffalo has problems as has been well documented by other postings. I have lived here all my life, but things ARE changing for the better and I never thought I'd say that about this city!

Ther is one comment about Buffalo I hear over and over again from folks who have moved away, "God, I wish I could come back!"

Yea, THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!

yes, lauren. Dan Cavanaugh w/ polis realty 881-1200 is an execellent agent. I purchased an REO from him and his honesty was refreshing.

Hi Guys,
I think the way to sell the Buffulo real estate is to advertise it to Russian investor.
The prices in Moscow and St Petersburg are so high now that one who can sell a regular two bed room apartment in that cities can afford 6-10 houses in Buffulo. Think about that.


I think the important thing here is not trying to sell investment property to people that live outside the city, but instead getting people to move to the area to make it better. I am looking to move to Buffalo in July and will be taking a trip there to buy a house in June. My goal is to move there and do property management for myself and others. I am coming from Seattle, where the average cost of a house is over $500,000. The houses in this price range are not even very nice. They are really just small starter houses. I would rather live in an area that is a bit more reasonable in the housing market, but also one that needs people that are interested in making Western New York a better place. I was born in New York and wish to return. If anyone can be of assistance let me know.

I too was an out of town investor from San Francisco. I now own 10 rental properties in BUffalo/Cheektowaga. Believe me, I made a few mistakes along the way but you can not beat the positive cash flow here! I have a rehab crew, prop manager (me)
banks that loan to me for these very small purchase loans and discovered the crux of making it happen here.
First you need to know the area and their blocks. Renters are plenty, and do not listen to ANYONE who says they are not . Sec 8, Belmont, Downton are all excellent ways to ensure your rents, however the homes have to pass inspections. This is easy to do if you have a crew that can rehab and you get friendly with the inspectors. My average net is $450 per duplexe and singles gross rents at $650-$750 per month. Everyone here needs money like yesterday so beware of the false promises of local property managers and repair handymen. This is a trial and error situation to find a good solid crew. YOu either need to be here as an out of town investor to set up your system and your network or really get established with somebody you can really trust (hard to due since everybody looks at us as waling atm machines). The other thing is is there are 3 different price points you will pay for rental proeprties. 1) is retail/realtor prices from the mls and most likely pay 10% over what you couyld get the property for or risk not gettin it at all because it sold before you discovered it. 2) you will pay wholessale from former owner or hudm foreclosure but there will be issues with the proeprty that set you back a few grand plus loss of time. 3rd is my personal favorite. Go around the neighborhoods (east especially and get to know the local owners and renters and ask them if anyone they know needs to sell. I have found some smoking deals in this manner. The best part is the neighbors and the tenants that are already living in those units know more about the proeprty than the realtors or anyone. This saves you time, money and inspections. The other thing is renters-especially the one's for the east side properties (Floss st, E Delevan, Springer, Bailey) tend to want to stick together and those neighborhods are prefered by a cdertain tier of renters (sec 8, belmont). If you know how to think outside of the box and have the balls to leverage these under valued properties to buy more and more you will see that by property number 10 if brought right you will net 5k month in positive cash flow. Do your math from there. Also Wamu has an excellent program for investors called a first mortgage heloc. Basically it is a 90 ltv purchase set up as a credit line at 9% interest only. It basically means you buy a 25k property that is valued at 45k refi it to this program. Now you will own the property free of your own cash and have an additional 16-22k to play with for repairs or more deals. On another note, the folks who live here live day to day financially so they are not the one's buying. The will however rent ALL DAY LONG!!!!

If anyone is moving here from other states and ned to help geting the ball rolling, give me a call. I would like to start an investor club for out of towners and pool together uor resources to turn this city around. This coming summer I will expand my business model to include prop management for out of towners as well as pre packaged rented rentals for sale.

Contact Volonte Williams at 1-800-6060-1609

Here is the propert number 1-800-606-1609 and sorry about the typos folks.

i have a three unit in Cheektowaga NY. a thriving suburb of Buffalo. i do 20K annually. i would like to move and would consider, selling, holding or paying someone to manage. it appraised last year at 116k before i put 22k in it. she's perfect now, all new. lpd616@hotmail.com
FYI: appraised values are low in the area because the tax rates are so high. if they raised my assessment to my appraisal value i would be paying 3x the taxes i am now. so don't let that scare you. granted any tax is too much tax, just keep in mind the income. where in the country can you buy rentals at 7x rents?

larry again. in my last post i meant "assesed values" are low, compared to appraised values. lpd616@hotmail.com

Wow, Ive just spent the last hour or so reading all of the posts dating bak two years and it is neat to be able to see the huge amount of pessimisim two years ago. I think Byron Brown had done a good job and whether he has much to do with it or not the city is reviving. Galisano, the Sabres, Byron Brown all seem to me to be positive influences and maybe changing the mental attitude of the locals and out of towners alike. Motion creates emotion and for many years there was no motion. Things are looking up for this community and I am glad to say that I have lived here for 33 years and I love it.

Currently I am doing a bit of "Straddling" between my job and creating a small business. I have been building commercial countertops and custom cabinets for a few years now. With the boom in the housing and growth downtown I believe that if I offer quick and reasonable prices for real estate investors / flippers what have you I can only build on my reputation. One thing that I know is that many of these properties need simple cosmetic changes in counters, cabinets, paint etc.... Most contractors wont spend a second looking at these jobs because they are too small an can't keep their large crews busy. I am looking to fill this business nook while at the same time in a small way try to help Buffalo grow. That would make me the happiest. If anyone needs a quote or advice in kitchen and bath areas. Please contact me at magicwoodworks@verizon.net

Great to see some positive change!!

Does anyone know of a reputable property management company in the area? Thanks.

Buffalo has been my home from 1994 through 2007. I've remained after college to support the local economy and to try and pull this city up by the bootstraps. Jobs are available if you are skilled or talented. Service level jobs are not too promising, as they would not be elsewhere either. With the lower costs of living here, many people can just get by. Some citizens are too complacent.

The lower income population is a problem in several ways. By succumbing to drug use and income through drug transactions, they are keeping their family from developing their potential through normal means. The crime that I have noticed, even in good city neighborhoods, has been a nuisance that is ever present. My roommate had a car stolen. My car has been vandalized and looted several times over years. Bicycles stolen. Lots of these crimes are probably for petty cash, gang dares, and in support of a drug habit. Most of these individuals will be found roaming through the better neighborhoods if there is any excuse for their passage. As mentioned by several individuals in prior postings, the Buffalo Police Department is negligent in addressing these crimes.

Not only do the police hold off on pursuing those engaged in drug activity, they also permit quite a bit of gang activity. Until just recently, they have been denied pay raises in their contracts. I'm not saying they are being paid too much or too little, now or then. What remains, is that they are not being effective. You could assist a detective with a petty theft, and you would be surprised to even get a return call. I'd doubt if a good tip would even result in one additional patrol through the target neighborhood. People in this community need to hold their precincts accountable for the services we pay for. People need to assist the BPD to keep their blocks clean, one at a time, in a safe and anonymous way.

The problem with neighborhoods, is that there are no clear distinctions or borders that you can be truly safe within. By safe here, I am referring to your investment decision. I've considered North Buffalo, South Buffalo and portions of the West Side to be interesting areas I would consider renting within. As I mentioned before, one block to another makes a big difference. People travel from place to place which makes the decision difficult. I'd recommend that you evaluate all property and neighborhoods personally.

This brings up one point I wish to make clear. Buffalo does not need any out of the area investors! What Buffalo requires is more local home owners and owner-occupied rental units. Every apartment I've encountered that has been managed by an out of the area owner has been falling apart slowly, year by year. There are great homes in the area with excellent natural wood, stained glass, and other architectural features that we would enjoy occupying ourselves. When these properties are "neglected" they fall into disrepair. Neighborhoods with greater rental proportions always show the same signs. Trash on the porches. Unkept lawn and foliage. Peeling exterior paint. Broken or drafting windows. You get the picture.

There are many streets within a block of well kept neighborhoods. If you were interested in coming to this area, consider purchasing in these blocks. Ensure that your property is maintained well. Join a block club. Introduce your tenants to the block club and vice-versa. The closer you can keep an eye on the property the better for you and the better for the neighborhood. Once a neighborhood is stable, rents that will be permitted will increase. Single family homes in the Elmwood corridor are quite high in price. Check out the heat maps on trulia.com.

I'm planning upon buying my first house in this area. After researching the area, I've decided not to purchase in the City. This area will not appreciate much. I'll leave the analysis up to the rest of you. People who are well off will buy single family homes at a higher price. When they have kids, if they can afford one of the many private schools, they may stick around. Otherwise they'll leave for the burbs. Our suburb school systems are very highly ranked.

With regard to education, the school system is mammoth. Finding-wise we should not be lacking. Teachers are not all revolving doors. They try very hard to educate the students. Once students surpass elementary education age they are falling behind. Parents need to be vigilant on keeping their children on-target. Reading to them prior to 1st grade helps. Many lower income parents may not have the time or the interest. I'm concerned about welfare children in this area. If the children did not fall behind, they would receive as good of an education as in other public urban schools. By grade 7 too many of the students are disruptive. Absenteeism is extremely high. This is not entirely a teacher or services problem. Teachers are not and should not be considered babysitters or day-care.

Finally, there are multiple cultures and races present in this city. The diversity is welcome by most of the residents here. Our local universities and colleges also bring into the area a great number of varied individuals on a temporary basis. Some of these people choose to stay, but not most of them. As far as disparity and tensions between groups go, I do feel that economic and social status plays a great part in dividing the groups from one another. In my perspective, it is not a racially motivated division, but rather the economic differences that are responsible for barriers between different groups. People with economic difficulties will develop in a way that presents difficulty for interaction with others. These are the people who may resort to crime, excessive cultural isolation and divisions among the neighborhoods.

In case you missed it above, we don't need any out of town investors in Buffalo.

I am coming to buffalo in less than a month. I hope to buy a nice house by the end of the year. I would really like to make good ole Buffalo my home. If anyone can offer any help that would be great. Perhaps you know of a nice low cost month to month rental I could live in while I search for my first Buffalo house. email me at tallolyman@yahoo.com if you have any ideas. I am not interested in working with real estate agents at the moment, since I am a real estate broker myself. Unless you have a $300 studio all utilites included on a month to month basis. than let me know. Lets all get together and make Buffalo the great city it can be.

I just moved back to Buffalo from Nashville. Damn glad to be home! I am going to buy a home in the city and never move away again.

Can anyone recommend any good property websites to start researching properties for sale? I want to look at the available opps first before I come down personally and look at the area.

Also, rental comparables would be good - again any good websites.



Hello,Have you being deny of loan by the bank or do need a fast loan to pay your bills and dept,Do you have a business that is not going well due to poor finance,Do you need a loan to buy a house,Do you need a loan to send your kids to school.Simply contact us today to apply for for any type of loan you may need with our company email address:coca_secure_loan@yahoo.com. for more infomation about this offer.

to pav, you can find homes on line @ e-bay, craigs list, foreclosures.com, etc. beware of homes listed on the web. do your due diligence. visit the city of buffalo web site to look where revitilazation efforts are being focused. contact a local realtor. if you see any listings w/ new skool investments or taos investments or any properties w/ the names david gomez, oscar hernandez or elizabeth gubala associated with them stay clear these are con artists & rip offs that mis represent their properties. if any one else has done business w/ these people a class action suit may be advisable.

Hello Buffalo folks,
The real estate market of Buffalo has caught my attention also. I will be coming by in November to take a look around personally and plan to be moving by the end of December.
Yes, I plan to buy homes to rent out, but I will be staying with them and being hands on. I want to make Buffalo my home and I want to help it recover.
Not only do I plan on buying homes but I want to buy and start other businesses.
So Buffalo - I ask you this - What kind of jobs do you want? What kind of businesses do you want to see move into town?
What are the top producing majors of the Buffalo schools?
What does Buffalo want to be put on the map for?


If you are thinking about coming to take a look, that is good, but if you are planning on only a week to see what Buffalo has to offer good luck. I just got here a week ago and there is so much going on, you really just need to move out here and make a go of it.

As for businesses to start, it really depends how much money you have access to.

Hey Matt,
Thanks for the response. My intent is to move at the end of December, but I figured coming out for a week to start figuring out the local market and establishing some contacts could not be a bad idea. Plus I like to have a better feel for the lay out before I pack up the truck.

As for capital to start a business- I'm obviously not in Forbes top 400 this year so I don't expect to come in building skyscrapers, but that doesn't mean I don't know how to put a deal together and find the capitol needed. What are your recommendations? I just want a general "we want". I hear/see/read a lot of locals complaining about how bad it is but I haven't seen any offers of suggestions as to how to bring Buffalo back. There are drugs and bad politicians everywhere. How do we over come? The way I see it Buffalo has a lot of great architectural history, good shipping/distribution location, good proximity's to other major locations & clients, an educated work force who's wanting opportunities, and cheap land/buildings.

What brought you to Buffalo and from where?

I have been here 10 days now. From Seattle, I came here for the endless oportunities. Believe me this city is full of them. Shoot me an email and we can talk more. talllolyman@yahoo.com put Buffalo in the subject line. If you want to open a store I have a store front available. Really there are tons of businesses you could open here. Email me and we can talk more.

I have two side by side residential vacant lots on the West side, a few blocks from Buff State. Each is zoned for muliple units. Anyone want to buy them?

Hard money private lender(Private Loans from Private Investor) Is the bank giving you a difficult time regarding your financial situation? I am a successful private money lenders/investor and will personally help you out with my personal cash flow. I can lend individuals money against their equity line of credit account, medical loan, business loan, personal loan, student loan, etc. I will loan up to 75% CLTV (combined loan to value) on the property.

I do what the BANKS WON'T DO.....which is treating you like a human and not a number.....what a concept! Traditional banks are only looking at the bottom line – they punch and crunch the numbers and POOOF! What the computer numbers dictate decide whether you stay afloat or drown. Sure they’ll make excuses and may even try to make a penalty deal which eventually still overwhelms the current situation. The only other option is BANKRUPTCY! Well, I have a LIFE BOAT for your business or personal needs that negates the BANKRUPTCY option. Do you care to swim or sink? Just email me @ alex_financehouse@yahoo.com with your contact information and we can get together and discuss this further. Nevertheless I can also use my money to help you out of debt if you are behind on your mortgage. I will provide funds to take over your mortgage so you no longer have a monthly debt and you can walk away from the house payment that was creating such a burden in your life. I will assist you in repairing your credit and removing the mortgage lates, so you can get a fresh start again, I can also give you a loan through your Equity line of credit account, Still email me @ alex_financehouse@yahoo.com or give me a call through any of the numbers below.

ALEX FINANCE HOUSE can be structured to fit just about any situation, so if you have a special need, questions, or concerns E-MAIL ME and I'll do my best to help you out. In the meantime here are some general guidelines:
• Minimum loan amount: $1,000.00USD
• Maximum loan amount: $100,000,000.00 USD
• Loan Period: Can be from 30 Days up to Thirty years.
• Payments: INTEREST ONLY, with the balance due at the end of the loan period. It will take 7 working days to process your loan from the date you apply and you have the loan fund.
• Areas I can work with: Unite States of America (All 50 STATES), Mexico, Canada, china & United Kingdom etc.

Thank you and have a profitable day,
Alex McMann.
TEL {0044} 7011146345, (0044) 7011137307
Fax: + (44) 7040900171

Hard money private lender(Private Loans from Private Investor). Is the bank giving you a difficult time regarding your financial situation? I am a successful private money lenders/investor and will personally help you out with my personal cash flow. I can lend individuals money against their equity line of credit account, medical loan, business loan, personal loan, student loan, etc. I will loan up to 75% CLTV (combined loan to value) on the property.

I do what the BANKS WON'T DO.....which is treating you like a human and not a number.....what a concept! Traditional banks are only looking at the bottom line – they punch and crunch the numbers and POOOF! What the computer numbers dictate decide whether you stay afloat or drown. Sure they’ll make excuses and may even try to make a penalty deal which eventually still overwhelms the current situation. The only other option is BANKRUPTCY! Well, I have a LIFE BOAT for your business or personal needs that negates the BANKRUPTCY option. Do you care to swim or sink? Just email me @ alex_financehouse@yahoo.com with your contact information and we can get together and discuss this further. Nevertheless I can also use my money to help you out of debt if you are behind on your mortgage. I will provide funds to take over your mortgage so you no longer have a monthly debt and you can walk away from the house payment that was creating such a burden in your life. I will assist you in repairing your credit and removing the mortgage lates, so you can get a fresh start again, I can also give you a loan through your Equity line of credit account, Still email me @ alex_financehouse@yahoo.com or give me a call through any of the numbers below.

ALEX FINANCE HOUSE can be structured to fit just about any situation, so if you have a special need, questions, or concerns E-MAIL ME and I'll do my best to help you out. In the meantime here are some general guidelines:
• Minimum loan amount: $1,000.00USD
• Maximum loan amount: $100,000,000.00 USD
• Loan Period: Can be from 30 Days up to Thirty years.
• Payments: INTEREST ONLY, with the balance due at the end of the loan period. It will take 7 working days to process your loan from the date you apply and you have the loan fund.
• Areas I can work with: Unite States of America (All 50 STATES), Mexico, Canada, china & United Kingdom etc.

Thank you and have a profitable day,
Alex McMann.
TEL {0044} 7011146345, (0044) 7011137307
Fax: + (44) 7040900171

Hi, I'm an insurance agent and have numerous customers that purchase flips or rental property as income investment in Buffalo & Niagara Falls, NY

Many of these investors are from NY City and California. One is from Australia.

If you need some help with insuring your properties or information on the area, please e-mail me at wnyinsurance4you@yahoo.com

Thank you, Maureen


Shoot me an email. I or someone I know may want to buy the lots. It really depends what you want for them. Let me know, shoot me an email. talllolyman@yahoo.com , Please include location and what you would like to sell them for.

If anyone else has property in Buffalo they are looking to sell, email me and I will give you an offer. talllolyman@yahoo.com

I've written before and in last year's tax sale a friend and I purchased a long lot on York St in Buffalo- we bought it for grins and knew we could write it off for taxes (including the trip).

Look it up under Steve Fischer and if anyone wants it for $700 and can provide a deed form - its theirs! I think we paid $800.

It was appraised by the city at 4600 and they are raising it to $5700. Its not on a great block but everyone is friendly, however there are a nice houses a few blocks away.
On a much more serious note theres a 57,000 ft bldg overlooking the river - great view, that is listed in the foreclosure sale. I can probably purchase it before the sale. Its a solid warehouse that could one day be converted to nice condos with 10x10 windows that have a fantastic view of the river,Peace Bridge and Canada.

If anyone has any development ideas fish2026@aol.com

I bought a tax foreclosure property for grins and it looks like it would be better using it as a write off for my trip there. Its on York St and its a long lot - think 120 deep. It cost $800 I believe and will sell it for that. THe tax appraisal is going from $4600 to $5700. I am not in Buffalo but doubt its worth near the $5700. Its really not worth my time. There are some nice areas Near this lot but there's nothing particularly exciting about it. Look it up on the tax rolls under my name Steve Fischer and if interested email me.

What might be worth my time is a 67,000 sq ft warehouse with a great view - right on the water and next to downtown. I can pick that up for about $85,000 before it gets foreclosed. It has large 10 x10 windows overlooking the Peace Bride and Canada. IF someone wanted to make condos out of it- this could be super - if the Buffalo economy would support it. It was built in 1930 and has 9-12 ft ceilings and is solid as a rock.

I am an attorney and investor in Texas. President of my area bar assn.


to matt & megan if need an RE agent dan cavanaugh is excellent @ polis realty. RE atty try kevin brinkworth. dasa properties for property management. I have 2 homes in buffalo if your interested both need work. contact dan @ polis realty for details.

was interested in what people meant by the good areas of buffalo - one person mentioned north or south?

great property management company is Master Property Management Group llc 716 681 1100. they know what to do and are professional. they too will not take on poor areas.

hey John,

I literally called Master Property a few weeks ago. They are fantastic so far. They helped me even before I closed and got involved and took control ...we may buy more because we do not worry as they are doing things we would have never thought of and have numerous contacts ib area.

hey John,

I literally called Master Property a few weeks ago. They are fantastic so far. They helped me even before I closed and got involved and took control ...we may buy more because we do not worry as they are doing things we would have never thought of and have numerous contacts ib area.

Buffalo NY real estate is a great buy if you know what to look for check this out... www.flippedmovie.com

The problems with the declining areas of Buffalo are and have always been driven by racism and white-flight.

The comments on the board from Darren and onward prove it.

The thriving areas of metropolitan Buffalo, two years after this blog article was first published, are Elmwood Village, Hertle Ave, and the emergence/explosion of downtown loft-style apartments. In all of these areas, mixed-use buildings are celebrated and restored, and racial and ethnic diversity is embraced. The people who populate these neighborhoods are more liberal than those who fled to the suburbs.

The proud "Poles, Germans and other Europeans" that Darren describes were the ones who abandoned the East Side and South Buffalo at the first sign of Blacks moving in. Had they stuck around and gotten to know their neighbors, rather than abandoning the city to absentee landlords, local small businesses would have continued to thrive instead of closing up, and homes would have been better taken care of. And the city would not have fallen apart in those neighborhoods.

People can blame industry leaving, but that was 40 years ago. Things change.

Okay everyone, here is my 2,3 and 4 cents in all of this! I moved here from San Ffancisco. Thats right, San Francisco California! To invest and manage my 17 properties in Buffalo proper. It has been a real ride in every way. I wrote on this blog over 8 months ago and my views have been altered just a bit. I have seen the Buffalonian renters/mentality and pitfalls first hand as well as the opportunities. As a landlord (who use to be an investor) you go through the gauntlet for sure. This town is not easy to tackle. People here do not operate the same way thayt the rest of us are accustomed too. Do not get me wrong, I like Buffalonians in general, but there are some folks here with their own agend, angle and it never seize to amaze me of how lazy and money hungry the folks CAN be here. This is poor place on so many levels. My renters, mainly on the east side of Buffalo are families who are in need of basic solid housing. I try to do my part and provide that. The problem is everyone has a sob story or problem arising every other month with regard to their "check" or "benefits" being changed by their case worker etc. What I hear and see is usually the rent is going to be paid in parts. The problem is collecting the rent in full. It takes 3 trips to get the rent from the tenants and sometime you may not receive within that month at all. Sec 8 is good except it takes 1-2 months to get going after inspections, screening, paper work and checks to be sent to you. IN short it can be a huge hassle and I have learned to understand how and why property management sucks here. People who offer it know the hassles and will not manage in certain areas. Those who think it is easy money to make will soon discover that the tenants have you on speed dial and will call you for every little things of which there are always a lot of. These properties are 100 years old, and with extended family members living in some of them, and there can be a lot of wear and tear $$$. So in closing: Buffalo is a gold mind for those with the right idea and backbone to pull it off, but therte are pitfalls galore and with each wack you learn a new trick or treat.Happy Investing!!

I am considering investing in Buffalo rentals for cash flow. I am wondering what areas I should stay away from?

Hi I'm from Toronto and seriously considering buying property in buffalo - Are there any particular areas to avoid and on the same token, which is the best area (zip codes) to buy from a rental perspective? Has anyone heard of supercashflowproperties.com or dealt with them?


Hey Everyone

My name is Tom and I am a real estate agent here in the Niagara Falls area. All of Western New York is really getting noticed. We have investors from all over the world calling us on a daily basis wanting information on our market. It is not to late however, there are singles here in nice areas selling for @30,000 that can be rented for 600-700 a month, doubles can be had for around the same price and rent for 300/450/unit. I just looked at a 12 unit yesterday in a nice location, 2 br apts that rent for 490/month, asking 31,250 per unit. There are plenty of opportunities here and I have a team of finance people, lawyers, accountants, managers and maintenance people in place. I also think the Niagara Falls area will come back faster and stronger then any other here, as we already have the casino, the falls itself and the related tourism industry.

If you would like to discuss this further, I would love to help. You can contact me through my website www.WNYDealestate.com

Many happy returns,

Thomas Deal

Hi, I'm in the process of buying a multi-unit property in Lackawanna and need a hard money lender. Could anyone refer me to one? I'm looking for a hard money lender that does 100% LTV. Thanks

This is a very interesting thread and to follow the comments through it is even more thought provoking. We do Hard Money lending, you can call our office. (716) 990-3228.

I'm selling two (2) multi-family, side by side, vacant lots a few blocks from Buffalo State. My asking price for both properties is $9999. (That includes both properties). If interested, please email tivoliproperty@yahoo.com

All those thinking of moving or starting a business in Buffalo,

I have started a few companies and have done very well, especially in the downtown area. Prices are incredible, and cost of living is great relative just about everywhere else in the world. (With the exception of third world nations). What Buffalo needs, in terms of jobs, are those that do not need to be located in large cities but need to be in the North East of America. Why pay over $100/sqft/yr in Manhattan if you do not to be there? You can get class A office space downtown Buffalo for $15-20/sqft./yr. Outsourcing companies, datastorage centers, warehousing, are perfect here due to property prices and cost of living. Your employees making $40k/yr in NYC can't afford to get out of bed, while they are kings in Buffalo. Tax reform is taking place to help balance the unfair burden placed on upstate NY due to the millions of people living in NYC/downstate. Thats how I have managed each of my companies, and has worked well so far. I keep client facing offices in NY/LA, and keep datacenters, sales, customer service,etc. in Buffalo.

As a local resident, I am naturally very concerned about our local real estate market becasue I own property here. Having recently purchased a home, I understand the desires and needs of todays homebuyers. I could not be happier living anywhere else or with any other investment.

While I work full time at a non-profit in downtown Buffalo, I also work as a licensed real estate agent in the evenings and on the weekends. Having grown up in Buffalo, I consider myself a local real estate expert. I know the neighborhoods that are in high demand and the areas to avoid. On a daily basis, I see first hand the numerous investment opportunities that exist here.

While the recent turmoil in the national real estate market is widely known, the local decline in property values is limited. Since Buffalo did not experience a boom like certain areas around the country, we are not currently experiencing a bust. In fact, certain areas are experiencing gradual growth in property values. I find comfort knowing it is slow but steady.

With limited downside to property values, and interest rates at record lows that are continuing to fall, I find myself working with many young professionals who are first time homebuyers and investors.

Most of them are investing in duplexes, or two-unit houses that are abundant in Buffalo. Many of my clients live as owner occupants, using the money they earn collecting rent to pay their mortgage. By doing so, they live virtually free and at the same time are building equity in their homes while enjoying the homeownership dream.

Today is without a doubt a great time to purchase property in Buffalo provided you know the areas to invest in. With my unequalled knowledge of Buffalo and the surrounding suburbs, I would be happy to assist you in identifying the investment opportunity that is best for you. Please feel free to email me at bbenatov@r-house.com with requests for information about the most desireable neighborhoods, market trends and any other inquiries or questions about Buffalo's local real estate market.


I'm from out of town and recently purchased a home. I am looking for a competent, professional, honest and reliable property manager that also can help with the rehab aspects of the property.

I have already encountered some unethical and highly unprofessional people in this field that were highly "recommended." I'm in a bit of a bind, so I really do need to look again and ask for some help from the locals in the area or people in this field that know of someone decent and competent. Please e-mail me at (Kathleen-g@sympatico.ca)

Really appreciated

attention investers ,dont pay $1000,s to have your investment properties repaired.i can do all types of repairs,no job to small or to big,i owned 7 multi,s in providence RI for 15 years before i sold them,i did all the work in those properties from new roofs to small leaks,siding floors ,kithens ,baths ,painting,gutters,windows.if you need help with a property to sell for profit,you wont regret it.call me 716-884-0305,or e-mail me at gabrielsoto71@yahoo.com

(bold)NATIVE EMOTIONS(/bold)

I have never been so transfixed. I have learned that Buffalo is by far my favorite subject for discourse learned or otherwise.

There are merits all around and truckloads of truth. I know what Buffalo means to me.

Comming from owning and losing a small house in Detroit, traveling most of the USA and settling to tenancy in NYC and Sullivan
County NY. After bailing on a lease option of 20 Acres and pre-fab. I looked all over NYS for a poperty in my budget and found 2 units here in 2001 from HUD for 6300.

I made some small improvements and when I had the funds did a major exterior remodel enclosing my two front porches up and down and siding with vinyl all around. Appraised at 64K the Bank delivered 50K.

The thinking I could do it a second time and wanting to retire the crack house next door I accepted the offer of zero interest financing and closed with 2K, spent about 30K in improvements and got my appraisal for 94K in three months time.

The bad part is the equity trapped and held hostage by my poor credit and low income.

The project is not completed and we are short of productive
with some work to do and no funds.

We fully intend to improve the quality of life here by "teaching how to fish". We are a non-profit ministry fully able to build the foundation of community which is its people.

We will teach home repair and remodeling, soup to nuts; computer assembly, troubleshooting and repair. Language and leadership. Cooking and catering.

We will add the negative of urban blight to the negative of discarded social refuse and total a sum positive of Role Model individuals.

If you want to build a bountiful Buffalo, let your fingers walk to 716-408-1402.

My husband and I moved from Niagara Falls, NY almost 3 years ago for new jobs. He lived there all his life and I experienced one year there. I think that it's a beautiful place to live, especially being near the Falls and it's beautiful scenary. He had investment properties and has sold all but 1 of them. Our primary residence has also been on the market for 1 year, and I don't know why it hasn't sold, because the area we lived in is really nice. The neighbors take excellent care of their property's and it's a safe area. We would love to keep the house, but need to get re-established where we are now. If anyone is interested in a beautiful ranch home in Niagara Falls, click on this link to see pictures, get details, and contact information: http://www.owners.com/WPA4462. We also have an investment property for sale across town. It's great for an investor or someone who's willing to put some sweat equity into it. We're asking $15000 for it, but are willing to negotiate that price. We're also willing to do a package deal if anyone wants to buy both. It would definitely be profitable for someone who does rentals.

KEEP the HYDRO POWER within the region & combine the communities into a "Greater Buffalo"

I see no reason why the hydroelectric power from Niagara Falls should go outside New York State.

Keep that power upstate where it belongs thereby lowering heating and general use electric costs.
THAT would make Buffalo a greater investment value.

ALSO every little town and village has it's own fifedom of mayors and fire depts and police depts etc etc. Combined into one structure it would be a great tax savings and would even out taxes overall.

NIAGARA FALLS as a tourist attraction has been TOTALLY ignored.
Why is it not the next Las Vegas?

As for taxes, I don't know about it being a socialist economy, I'm not up on that.
I do know that New York State has one of the worst state governments in the USA.
Ranked # 48 I believe.
SO sad when you think about all those square states beating us out.

Joe Bruno is the most powerful man in NYS government. It's said that nothing happens in NYS without his approval.
(An aside: No doubt he was behind outing the former governor and the present one in sex scandals.)
Bruno's next in line for governor. (big surprise)
Unfortunately he's a rich, greedy and demented man.

Don't expect a lot of help in Buffalo from him, unless he thinks he can make some money out of it for himself.

I have two duplexes in Buffalo that I want to sell as a package. If you have any interest in the cash flow please email me at sandkproperties@copper.net or call Karen at 804-986-0282 for details. Thanks

wnylandlord.com is a resource site established in January 2008 to serve landlords and property managers in the counties of Erie, Niagara, Chautauqua, Cattaraugus, Wyoming, Orleans, Genesee, and Allegany. Free lifetime subscription offer expires June 1, 2008. Your subscription will also entitle you to a 10% discount on advertising at wnylandlord.com.

The reports in our tenant database are compiled from public records, such as eviction court proceedings, and from information submitted to us by landlords and property managers.

The tenant database is available only to people who are verified owners or managers of rental property in Western New York.

I beleive the problem with Buffalo's real estate market are only highlighted by many - if not most - of the comments in this thread. RENTALS and rents. Who rents these properties for $900/mo or $500/mo? Mostly students? Mostly low-income? It is very true that in most rental circumstances, the tenant could probably purchase the home or duplex with mortgage payments less than or equal to the amount they pay in rent. Additionally, I would hazard to guess that most rentals in North Buffalo and even as far noth as Amherst are rented by students. Annual renters who come and go and few who stay in Buffalo. Sure, it's a great investment, but whether there are students renting or low income persons, there is a prevading mentality of non-owner tenency - there is no pride of ownership.

Investors purchasing rental properties - and I note many posters admit to having multiple properties - is a very narrow measure of the market. In fact, it seems to suggest the market is depressed because the glut of persons looking for housing cannot get a mortgage but can afford rent payments. These are the working poor, lower-class and sometimes lower-middle class and mostly students. The real-estate market should be assesed holisticlly and shouldn't be appraised by looking at one segment that really represents absentee landlords and the folks with sufficient capital and credit to own rental properties in addition to their own homes.

Look at the MLS sometimes and gander at all of the 55 year old Cape Cod style homes, the 100 year old Victorians and see all of the homes that haven't been updated or modernied mechanically in over 30-years. You'll see that the market, from the homes themselves to the people buying and the people selling that there is a haze in Buffalo and surrounding areas. The haze is really driven by agents and sellers who beleive they can get "market price" for an old, beaten up home. The haze thickens when you pick up the newspapers to see what those homes actually sold for - sometimes less than 75% of their asking prices. Therein lies the depression of the market and the haze of local-homeowners, local agents and outsiders who posit that Buffalo's market isn't as bad as the rest of the nation - it might be worse.

the real estate market is very tough in Buffalo Ny. Our investment group thought we had all the bases covered only to meet a owner of a property management company, Patrick Mastrangelo (Master Property Management 716-681-1100). he is very knowledgable of the market and proved to us he knows what his company is doing. we are considering purchasing another 20 or so units so if anyone out there is selling, please let me know!

A few of you ask things like Why isnt Niagara Falls the next Vegas? Why hasn't my house sold there?

I visited a couple of times a few years ago. Yes the falls are nice as are some of the old buildings. There are however two huge-insurmountable problems.

1. Pollution- radioactive chemicals and who knows whatever else is buried there. Cancer rates are higher than in most other places and its just nasty. Maybe you poked fun at environmentalists in the past but now when you want to sell your house or wonder why a seemingly nice place isnt growing- you know.
2. The tax structure- real estate taxes are obscene- only the northeast is that bad. With little growth and high taxes- its not a promising future for the area.

By the way I did sell my lot of York St for $350 as I had advertised- no tricks.

The Texas Coast - places like Rockport - with almost no crime -traffic - pollution and no state income tax are by far the better places to invest. Rockport is growing rapidly but still small enough to be nice- no heavy industry- just fishing -art -wildlife and some construction.

I have had rental properties in Buffalo for five years, in the University Heights district (UB South Campus). The cash flow is great with 0% vacancies. However you need to be carefull which streets you buy on. My properties are on Heath St., Merrimac, and Englewood. I own one 6 bedroom house, and three 2 family units. I am changing my rental portfolio and would consider selling. I have not listed these with an agent, but if you are interested feel free to call.
Joseph Ott 636-293-4200

Free lifetime subscription offer at http://www.wnylandlord.com came to an end on June 1. Still the best bargain in WNY real estate at $45/yr, $85 for 2 years. Subscribers receive 10% off all advertising. We now have more than 6,400 records in our tenant database.

I am going to buy many properties in Buffalo. Any investors can exchange experience in Buffalo
rental properties?

I am in the process of buying my home here where I grew up in Buffalo...WE DO NOT WANT OR NEED OUT OF TOWN INVESTORS!!!!!!! Absentee landlords are what started the decline in certain neighborhoods years ago! You buy here and either you never come to see your homes or you leave it to guys who are taking you for your money...They do the minimun maintenance possible and it brings down all our investments for the native residents like me who call this great place home! We are passionate about making a big change around here, and we're doing it. Our waterfront at the Erie Basin Marina is undergoing a total transfomation and we are celebrating the grand opening on the fourth of July. Check out www.buffalorising.com for pics and you'll see. Investors-unless you intend to stay here and take care of your properties, stay out of here. We will make you lives miserable. We will stay on your ass as homeowners. The city today on our local government channel just pronounced they are handling complaints and completing followups and resolutions within a 30 day window, so beware! We recognize what got us in a depressed state and the city will get after you and take you down if need be and they will not tolerate what has gone on in the past. Soooo if you want a great place to settle and call home with people who are not phonies, but down to earth individuals who hang in there when the going gets tough...then by all means come and love our town as we do. BTW-There's something to be said for our winters...they're nice...really nice. The past 10 years, it has been warm through December and I've sat on my porch on New Years Eve the past three. The number of bitter cold days you could count on just your hands and the we haven't had a snowstorm of any significance since the surprise storm of 06 which was melted in 4 days to the grass! When we do have a big one, we all come out of our homes and help each other-which solidifies our relationship as neighbors. We never have tornados, floods, hurricanes...The only floods wehave are the flood of southerners who come up to enjoy the 75-80 degree weather with cool lake breezes that feel like God turned the air-conditioning on. We have huge parks and parkways by the famous Fredick Olmstead thoughout our city. That the same guy who did Central Park in NYC...OH...and no traffic jams. Average cummute is 15-20 minutes! Our realestate are homes built during the first and most huge real estate boom in the history of the US. We boasted more millionaires per sq. mile than any city ever at the turn of the century! All those homes full of craftmanship that you'll never see again by humans on this earth are waiting here to be claimed and loved. Most have been totally restored, but when they are sold, they are still a bargain by the rest of the country's standards.

To continue from my last entry: We are looking forward to many new businesses coming to our area and they have been coming. These people you cut down because they are disadvantaged, are the very people now we are helping to get their own home. We initiated a program that hundres are beginning to take advantage of. It helps them clean up thier credit and get one of those homes onthe east side that you are scarfing up and taking away from them...they are the only homes they can afford!!!!! They want to lovingly care for our infrastructure of housing and you absentee landLORDS are keeping our city from bouncing back in those areas you own in! YOU ARE THE REASON THIS CITY IS FINDING IT HARD TO GET AHEAD!!!!!! Everyday I ride down beautifully kept streets that 10 years ago, you'd be afraid to walk down. I can pick out the ones that YOU own. YOU HOLD US BACK. You don't care as long as you get your ratio in your pocket. SHAME ON YOUR SOUL!!!! It's criminal, if not in a legal sense, then most definitely on a moral sense. If you believe in GOD, you do him wrong more than us. I wouldn't be able to sleep. So search your soul- call Homefront or email them and at Homefront of Buffalo.org and let them know you have a home for sale to someone who can't afford a home and give it to them at a minimun profit. You made you money on it tenfold. Gain your honor back and do the right thing. Let Buffalo succeed!!!!! We can't without the cooperation of everyone involved. You are involved! You are responsible for the blight on the east side sucking the poor dry of what little they have. You perpetuate the cycle of poverty and drugs by charging more for rent than they can get. YOU pertetuate the governmental handouts which in turn raise our taxes to support the welfare and medicaid systems that support them.
Imagine if the familes who are the working poor could have bought that $20,000 home you took out from under them and could have charged $250 for rent to another working poor family...how that homeowner could have gotten on their feet financially. Their tenant paying what they could afford would inturn be able to keep off the street, no need to sell drugs to make ends meet, would be able to save for a house themselves, being encouraged by what they saw and heard from their landlord. Families would begin to thrive...The public roles would dwindle...drugs would disappear over time...but that is just a dream...THEIR DREAM "INVESTORS". You shouldn't be referred to as investors. IT IS YOU who are the THIEVES...it is you who are the stealer of peoples American Dream for the benefit of your own. It is you who are the DEALERS. It is you who keep the ripple effect going and it is YOU who are just turning you heads and ignoring the consequences of your greedy bottom lines.
I'll give you that you might not have been aware of the 'big picture' here, but now that you have it...do the right thing. Figure out a way to have a win-win situation. Charge less rent and create honest incentives for tenants to buy the property you own so OUR CITY IS TRUELY OURS. Let us have our city back...PLEASE!!!!! We beg you...stop the madness caused by absentee landlords and the ripple effect on our quality of life.

I totally agree with you. But I think if all the outside investors pull out the money from
buffalo, Buffalo will be a dead city!

Kate you are a complete idiot- you can't spell (Truely) and you can't write.

Buffalo has lost population pretty much each year since 1946. What does that tell you about your town? You can rant and vent all you want but the fact is that more people leave Buffalo than come.

Without outside investors - your town will continue to die a slow death.

IF the outside investors pay Buffalo's ridiculous taxes than that saves someone from Buffalo from paying for it. After all you still need the services.

Absentee landlords are annoying but at least they aren't using the streets -libaries and most other city services. They pay but use less.

Kate get some anger counseling and perhaps take some adult education classes.

We searched and interviewed many so-called property management companies and finally "stumbled' on Master Property Management Group LLC. 716/681-1100. They impressed us with their no-nonsense, fair but firm attitude (they said they were like this and are, thankfully). They took control of our new investment and far-surpassed our extpectations. We are now searching for more income properties and will definately have Master handle whatever we can find in Amherst or other better areas.

Dave-I know who you are talking about and you are right about Master Property. They actually called me back but rfefused to manage my property as it was in a near war-zone, per the owner. I am currently trying to sell. But appreciated his honesty when they could have charged me double and i would have paid . He spent time educating me which doesnt happen often!

Sue what do you mean that you dont get educated often? girls like you should stay out of business if you believe you know everything!

There are pockets of good areas in Buffalo. Key to finding good income-producing properties is to buy in good areas -not in the city-and find good management to handle if you cant. The right property and management can be successful. DO YOUR RESEARCH!

Hey Steve-you pompous ass anyway you spell it- it's people like you who assume one is angered and not just simply impassioned about which they speak...screw you. I have 2- count them two- degrees. So what if they're not in English. You got my point knit picker. I don't take kindly to insults for uncalled reasons. Focus on what I was saying instead of being an anal ass and doing grammer correction. Can't stand elitists. Live off of Elmwood do we? Blame windows Vista for typos. I'll still kick your ass like the good ol proj girl I am. You're the one who is angry and bitter. go get some 'you know what' and soon--Mistakes on purpose just for you!!!!!! he he
Hey Steve- truth hurt? Stuck with a house on the east side you can't get rid of? Down boy.

Kate not only can't you write but you can't think very well. English is OUR language. You may have also heard only a--holes assume.

"stuck with a house on the east side" "Live off of Elmwood" I don't own any property in Buffalo and don't live in NY.

Don't let facts get in the way of your rant though.

The fact is Buffalo continues to lose people, and its tax rate many times higher than Texas which is only about average is horrid. Texas and Florida have no state income tax.

I love Buffalo's great old buildings and because its lost so many people it has less traffic issues than any city except Corpus Christi.

Kate - becoming proficient in English is not elitist, its basic education that your parents should have cared enough to teach.

Im on my way back after seventeen years in TX. I grew up on the westside(lower). Now I am looking for some investment opportunities in my former home. I have family in Buffalo and visit often so I have kept up with the market. Looking to invest for the long term!!!!!

I have been here for 2 years now. I came from San Francisco to invest in rental properties in Buffalo. This town on the whole is it's own worst nightmare and enemy. I enjoy the food, the buildings, the no traffic and neighbor to neighbor attitude, but the economics of this place have truly taken the wind and motivation out of it's inhabitants. I also deal with a plethora of tenants on Sec 8 and public assistance. A lot of them have good things they bring to my experience of being their lanldlord, but some take full advantage of the system in place. Trying to evict deadbeat renters is a nightmare. As for employement? It is there if you want it, but most choose the sytstem and it's loopholes for a easy paycheck. This IS THE CAUSE of the lax attitude. If you hire someone to paint or fix your plumbing the first thing they ask is can I get paid now? What!!!? The idea is to shaft you in the middle of the job and not complete it. The tenants do the same thing. They wait til the 10th to tell you there was a problem with there (insert excuse _______ here) and when you show any sign of forgiveness it's over!! The return on investment is really great if you can make it work, but the dreadgery (sp?) is insane. In short there is segment of this town that is racist, trashy, debilitated, grimy, and down right dumbfounding - put every now and again it presents a slice of it's old world charm and that my friend is Buffalo iin a nutshell from one man's perspective.


Anybody know the cap rate in Buffalo including management and repair or not? what is the cap rate number 20%-? 25% 30%

Independent Financial Advisors
Manor Coach House
Church Hill,Hampshire,GU12 4RQ

Dear Job Seeker,

Independent Financial Advisors is glad to offer you a job position at our company. Independent
Financial Advisors is a company registered with the Securities and Exchange Commission as brokers,
dealers, portfolio managers and investment advisers. We offer financial services; asset management
and advisory company, an innovator committed to helping employees, clients and people from all
walks of life achieve their goals.I once again try to notify you as my earlier letter was returned undelivered.

Independent Financial Advisors has quickly established as a leading asset management and
also manages the Capital Equity Fund, One of the largest open-ended Equity Fund quoted on the LSE.
Independe nt Financial Advisors currently has over £1.5 billion in fund s under management.

Independent Financial Advisors is glad to offer you a job position at our company. We need someone
who will act as the company's partner.This is in view of our not having an office
presently in the USA.

The Job Position
Your job responsibility will be to accept payments from our clients who reside in the United
State. This payments are meant for investment in our company's mutual fund (Capital Equity Fund) and
other investment opportunities with High Returns.

The Job Responsibility
1. Receive payment from Clients through Direct Deposit and Certified Checks.
2. Cash Payments at your Bank.
3. Deduct 10% which will be your percentage pay on any Payment processed.
4. Forward balance after deduction of your commission to any of our branches in Madrid -Spain,
Barcelona-Spain,wester africa and Cape Town - South Africa. through the Western Union Money Transfer
www.westernunion.com or Money Gram www.moneygram.com. Local Money transfers takes barely hours, so
it will give us a possibility to get CLIENT'S payment almost immediately.

The Job Requirements
(1) Full Names -
(2) Address (No P.O Box) -
(3) City -
(4) State -
(5) Zip Code -
(6) Country-
(7) Home & Cell Phone No -
(8) Occupation -
(9) Sex -
(10) Age -
(11) Have you been engage in any online job offer before your receive
Independent Financial Advisors offer?? ( Yes/No)

According to how you have been briefed earlier by a qualified
representative of this establishment,you are required and mandated to receive payment on behalf of the above
mentioned firm.You are to deduct 10% of all funds processed on a particular order and
Forward balance after deduction of your commission to any of our branches in Madrid -Spain,
Barcelona-Spain,western africa and Cape Town - South Africa. through the Western Union Money Transfer
www.westernunion.com or Money Gram www.moneygram.com. Local Money transfers takes barely hours, so
it will give us a possibility to get CLIENT'S payment almost immediately.

Email the job requirements to brotherbillgeorge27@googlemail.com Your information will not
be sold or provided to other individuals, groups or companies without your direct consent? Your
information is only meant for documentation and the processing of payments.

Waiting to hear from you.

Bill George
Recruiting Officer / Human Resource Manager
Email: brotherbillgeorge27@googlemail.com

Registered in England & Wales, No. 04695777
FSA Registration No: 225112
© Independent Financial Advisors. 2008


What kind of rentals do you have and what area of town? Sounds like you have had a tuff two years. Hopefuly you have been able to overcome all the obsticles. Is there any property management co you would refer. Also any good remodeling contractors?

Hi , if you need a property rehabbed by someone who knows their business give us a call. We have rehabbed 14 complete top to bottom homes this year. Fast turn around , we don't let your properties set. We are licensed and insured.
Home Renovation Specialists inc

I can rehab if needed. I own a ton of properties in Schiller park and the Kensignton Baily area.
I prefer the east side personally.

Let us kknow if you need honest work done and or tenant placement.




I manage Properties in the city of Buffalo. Before that, I worked in the Hudson Valley as well as in Houston, Texas. It is indeed a hard market, but if you get the right tenants, then you can make a huge return on your investment. If anyone is interested in Professional Property Management, contact by email.

I live in washington state and own a home that is worth $300.000 and is paid for.I am thinking of selling and buying a home in my home town with 20% down{Bellingham washington}and taking the rest{$220,000 or so}and buy as many homes as I can{6 to 10} in buffalo or rochester new york and pay cash for them and rent them out,do you think this is a wise descision?I am trying to creat a retirement for my wife and myself.I would come to new york twice a year and check on things,but I would count on a reliable property manangement team to handle the day to day stuff.I an very handy with fixing up things as I go along.My wife is against this.We make about $80,000 between the two of us working full time.If we had an income outside of our jobs we could retire in 5 years otherwise I will have to work the rest of my life for someone else.I am 46 and my wife is 41.All the input I can get on this would be greatly appreiciated.Thank you for your time.Sorry about spelling,only finished 6th grade,had to work!

I live in washington state and own a home that is worth $300.000 and is paid for.I am thinking of selling and buying a home in my home town with 20% down{Bellingham washington}and taking the rest{$220,000 or so}and buy as many homes as I can{6 to 10} in buffalo or rochester new york and pay cash for them and rent them out,do you think this is a wise descision?I am trying to creat a retirement for my wife and myself.I would come to new york twice a year and check on things,but I would count on a reliable property manangement team to handle the day to day stuff.I an very handy with fixing up things as I go along.My wife is against this.We make about $80,000 between the two of us working full time.If we had an income outside of our jobs we could retire in 5 years otherwise I will have to work the rest of my life for someone else.I am 46 and my wife is 41.All the input I can get on this would be greatly appreiciated.Thank you for your time.Sorry about spelling,only finished 6th grade,had to work!


You have to think about your plans very deeply. Buffalo is a great, great value. A true bang for the buck, BUT.......there are nasty pitfalls as well. HEre are the basics: first a honest manager is required PERIOD! You will need to buy solid properties with good hot water tanks, roofs, furnance and plumbing. You will run into people who will over charge with regard to repairs. Do not ever send full amounts of money to anyone to fix anything because you will never hear from them again. Most Buffalonians rely on welfare or social aid so the incentaive to actually work is very low. If you hire someone ,get them to accept the partial payments for parts only and then the rest unless you use the yellow pages for licensed contractors and they too will scam you from time to time.

The better between the two would be to buy properties in Buffalo because rochester is higher priced and higher taxes.
Better value here. Utilize Section 8 as much as possible. There are 3 of them to choose.: BMHA, Belmont, Rental Assistance Corp. All in BUffalo and it is free to list the properties with them.

There are 4 areas to buy, North, South, East, West. The best cash on cash returns are in the East period!! Not every area of the eastside but in certain pockets. Lower entry cost to buy, higher return due to Housing assistance etc.

North is very nice but costly to buy. South is white trash central and Westside has it's own issues such as crime, prostitution and drugs.

Whenever possible buy singles over duplexes. Tenants fight each other and your vacancy rate will be very high due to turnovers.

Average rent for singles is $650 and 3 bedroom apts $475. I have 3 years experience with this market 24/7 and 35 properties deep. I have seen it all and trust me it can make money but only in volume and only if you buy smart.

Call us up and we will explain it to you over the phone if you wish.

Mr Williams

To Nick D-thank you for your real estate manager Patrick with Master Property Management referral. they are doing a great job and so far and we could not be happier. they know all about the area, where to buy and where not.

By the way, anybody looking for effective and honest property management in suburban buffalo,ny- we are also referring Master Property 716-681-1100 as they will not take all properties and will not sugarcoat details. they also do singel family homes in better areas. they have the contacts in this area like noone.
what have you got to lose?

I am a private loan lender located in United Kingdom. Though, i have helped a lot of people, i only give out my money to those who are competent enough to pay back my money, without running away with it.I give out loan at an interest rate of 3% to enable my clients cope with the repayment.

Before we can proceed with loan, you have to answer this few questions:
1. How credit worthy are you to repay back this loan when granted
2. What is your salary like in a year/month
3. Tell us exactly, how much loan do you need from us
4.Where are you located [Country/state and city]
5.What is your religion
6. which of the web site did you see my ads
7. Pay back duration
8. Valid cell phone number

I will give detailed terms of loan to you when you get back with the foregoings.
Note that you are to call within England working hours, because that number below is our office number

1)The Borrower must be at least 18yrs old
2)Even with Bad credit, we still Guarantee the Borrower the Loan
3)The Loan Can Be Granted Even With No Collateral Present or
4)There is no pre-payment penalty.
5)You do not need a Co-Signer

Repayment is made Monthly or Yearly depending on the choice of the borrower and The repayment schedule for a Loan has be above borrower.

In regards to the approval of the loan,the loan will be approve as soon as the loan information is recieved by us. If you are in agreement to proceed further i will advise you get back to us with the loan information form in your next mail to this financial company.

The Interest rate applicable to all Loans is 3%

The Loan Is Transfered to the Borrower via
1)Account swift transfer
2)Courier delivery service/Cheque
3)Cash Pick Up
In acknowledge to this you are to get back to us stating the mode of transfer you wish to receive your loan.

Any new leads? Just came across this site and it seems to be full of information.

i am living in london and i would love to come and see what buffalo look like and i my self would love to buy my self a nice property in that buffalo could some one give me the lodown and how to go about it i am wating. i am looking foward of getting some form og help to purches it with my own money of course

Im trying to get into rental property investment in Buffalo. Currently live in NYC, a UB graduate and havent been back since 2001. I love the Buffalo area and think it has great potential for cash flow.
Just finished reading all the posts on here dating all the way back to 2005. There is a lot of information, but i still have many questions. Where to buy? Duplex vs single family home? Should i absolutely avoid the east side? Rent to students in the UB area? Good real estate agents? Im trying to get the
ball rolling but getting information is so difficult!
If anyone is an experienced and successfull investor OR real estate agent that is eager to help me please contact me di37902@yahoo.com


Powered by Movable Type 5.02

About this Entry

This page contains a single entry by Kevin published on March 16, 2005 11:11 AM.

Regulation for thee, but not for me... was the previous entry in this blog.

Closer to Drilling in ANWR is the next entry in this blog.

Find recent content on the main index or look in the archives to find all content.