Truck and Barter

Comments

---

Bob wrote:

Hmmmmmm.....new notepad..alrighty then....what is the latest, have been away for a bit.

-- July 13, 2006 9:16 AM ∞

---

C1Jim wrote:

Well, we were all going to be rich. Then we weren't. Now, we might be, but we will wait in see.

-- July 13, 2006 9:29 AM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

Yes..I remember that.....any significant news lately?

-- July 13, 2006 9:36 AM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

We might be? I see where the zero lopping theory has cooled off a bit? Personally, I dont think that will happen; we wont become the millionaires that we thought but I cant see what good that would do for their economy either. Any thoughts?

-- July 13, 2006 9:40 AM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Both Russia and Afghanistan are countries who have zero lopped their currency.
Lets look at their situations in relation to the Iraqi Dinar and the speculation and
rumors about Iraq doing a zero lop on their currency:

Afghanistan had 4 types of currency in circulation as a result of a civil war. It was
unknown how much of each was in circulation. For the people and the
government, this was a very difficult situation. As a result, the currency kept
losing it's value. They needed something both credible and efficient to use as
currency. You did not want people carrying around bags of money since
everything is cash based. Their zero lop happened at the same time as they
printed new currency to replace the confusing mix they had before. This ensured
everyone had the same currency, there was a known amount in circulation, and
people could buy and sell things with few notes. It has little in common to the
Iraqi Dinar and the speculation about the zero lop. Iraq has already
printed and established a single national currency, with secure features
and knows exactly how much is in circulation. The Dinar denominations are
already designed to carry high or low values without carrying around sacks of
money. It makes no sense for them to change the face of the currency, when
they are talking about increasing the value to fit their economic goals.

Russia performed zero lopping to their currency in 1998. They did this in
response to hyperinflation and to restore confidence in their currencies structure
and value. Iraq has roughly only 20% inflation. Russia also had denominations
that went too high - they had denominations of 5k, 10k, 50k, 100k, and 500k -
which were replaced with denominations of 5, 10, 50, 100 , and 500. In
comparison, Iraq's highest denomination is the 25k and has denominations all the
way down to 25 Dinar. If Iraq did zero lopping off the structure of the bills,
they would overlap denominations that already exist. This does not make
sense or fit the stated goals with the Iraqi Dinar. It seems that a zero lop, or
zero lopping would not occur with the denominations of the Dinar, but by
increasing it's value with a revalue that would benefit their economy and their
poor in a positive way.

http://www.dinar-into-dollars.com/zero_lop_analysis.html

This situation is focing me to take up smoking ---*~~

-- July 13, 2006 10:22 AM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

also... check this out..

http://www.iraqiwiki.com/wiki/index.php/The_Zero_lopping_argument

-- July 13, 2006 10:23 AM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Lance,

Thank's for that information... Great post indeed!

Outlaw

-- July 13, 2006 10:49 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

U.S.-Iraqi chamber of commerce and industry to organize investment forum in Amman

Amman, July 12 (Petra) The U.S.- Iraqi Chamber of Commerce and Industry intend to organize an Iraqi investment forum in Amman next month, Chairman of the chamber Fares al-Mesleh disclosed Wednesday.

He said the forum aimed to explain Iraq's future investment policy including the new market mechanism that will be adopted by the Iraqi government in light of the new investment law approved recently by the Iraqi parliament.

http://www.petra.gov.jo/nepras/2006/Jul/12/6000.htm

The phrase "in light of the new investment law approved recently by the Iraqi parliament" has me wondering if the FI laws are indeed passed now? I feel those laws being passed is a HUGE step forward for Iraq, so it isn't a small point of interest..

Sara.

-- July 13, 2006 11:55 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Hey, can we do this, too? :)

Sara.

===

Iraqi leader warns biased media outlets

BAGHDAD, 13 July 2006 (Associated Press) -- Iraq's prime minister warned television stations Wednesday against broadcasting reports that incite violence, saying he will not hesitate to shut them down.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php/article/9305

-- July 13, 2006 12:07 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Lance....

Good info. in your posting....thanks.

I have a feeling the US is holding a lot of those I.O.U.'s they can cash in at a later date.

-- July 13, 2006 12:37 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Sara....

I read the Kurds have passed their F.I. laws but I thought the central government was a few weeks away....maybe they're moving faster than we think...I hope!

Also....yes!! It would be nice to shut CNN down for a few years!

-- July 13, 2006 12:42 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

They don't have to shut the MSM down, Okie.. just make sure they don't publish stuff like the r.ape trial going on which incited the terrorists to kill three US servicemen (according to the terrorists). The fact that the accused has entered a plea of not guilty barely made a dent in the news in comparison to their playing up the man's guilt... The courts probably cannot get an unbiased jury after this coverage. If that is true of a jury, how much more so of the terrorists? So much for supporting the troops, and the supposed value in America of "innocent UNTIL proven guilty"..

Sara.

-- July 13, 2006 1:13 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Iraqi PM Al-Maliki will visit Whitehouse July 25

Iraqi Prime Minister to Visit White House
Thursday July 13, 2006 1:31 PM

WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush snuck over to Baghdad to meet him last month. Now he plans to welcome Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to the White House for the first time.

Al-Maliki will visit July 25, the White House announced Thursday as Bush visited Germany.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,,-5948603,00.html

-- July 13, 2006 1:49 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

repatriation of capital.....I sure do like the sound of that!!!!

Iraq's former Minister of Planning offers suggestions for new foreign investment law

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

12 July 2006 (PortAl Iraq)
Iraq's former Minister of Planning suggested in an article that the new foreign investment law should offer credible guarantees to investors related to the repatriation of capital, as well as substantial tax exemptions.

The former minister also strongly advocated the creation of an agency to promote foreign investments in Iraq.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php?refid=DH-S-13-07-2006&article=9314

-- July 13, 2006 2:17 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Hi Lance.

I appreciate your input and info. If you are copying info directly from another site, could you please make that clear, E.g. putting the text in quotes or saying the folling link says... as it appeared what you were writing was your own thoughts and opinions.

I note also that the arguement of not zero lopping the Dinar was a summary from the 'WIKI' site, where there are comments after it dated 2004. I thought this was relevant information.

To all, I ask again any opinion / views on what us cash holders would / should do in the event of a reissue of dinars prior to the dinar being released on the Foreign Exchange. I'm not saying that WILL happen, just my own view is that it is a strong possibility that I for one want to be prepared for.
This is based on the news that Iraqi Financial Minister has proposed the zero lop and to my mind an exchange of currency would be inevitable.

-- July 13, 2006 3:04 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

I found a list of ID/USD exchange rates posted on the ICB website: Http://www.cbiraq.org/Binder4.pdf
This is a big document. This page I am refering to is Page 17 of 24, Table 10.

The rates are listed as below:

Exchange rate of Iraq Dinar per US Dollar:

ID/US$ Period

10 1991
21 1992
74 1993
458 1994
1674 1995
1170 1996
1471 1997
1620 1998
1972 1999
1930 2000
1929 2001
1957 2002
- 2003
2219 Jan
2354 Feb
2541 Mar
3500 Apr
1443 May
1459 Jun

I have heard people quote pre-war values of dinars being $3US+ Where exactly does this come from?
This is history, as recorded by the Iraq Central Bank. The exchange rate given at best was 10 ID to $1US or 10c a piece. That was way back in 1991.

Since 1995, the exchange rate has been in the same ball-park as it is now, with the exception of the blip in 2003, during the invasion, where the dinar still only fell to around half of its current value.

If we are all expecting, or rather hoping the value of the dinar will rebound to its pre-war levels, I have news... its already worth more than it has been since 1997!

Please disprove me. I have invested in this venture too. From where I am sitting, I am still optimistic that the dinar will steadily climb, once major reconstruction and international trade is established, but as for a huge windfall... seems to me now that there was never one to be made.

-- July 13, 2006 3:27 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Zero Lop or Zero Lopping the Dinar Analysis
13/07/2006

Both Russia and Afghanistan are countries who have zero lopped their currency.

It has little in common to the Iraqi Dinar and the speculation about the zero lop. Iraq has already printed and established a single national currency, with secure features and knows exactly how much is in circulation. The Dinar denominations are already designed to carry high or low values without carrying around sacks of money. It makes no sense for them to change the face of the currency, when they are talking about increasing the value to fit their economic goals.

If Iraq did zero lopping off the structure of the bills, they would overlap denominations that already exist. This does not make sense or fit the stated goals with the Iraqi Dinar. It seems that a zero lop, or zero lopping would not occur with the denominations of the Dinar, but by increasing it's value with a revalue that would benefit their economy and their poor in a positive way.

http://www.iraqdirectory.com/DisplayNews.aspx?id=1677

-- July 13, 2006 8:11 PM ∞

---

Forest wrote:

Repost from the NID forum:

A LOT OF PEOPLE TEND TO THINK THAT THE DINAR WILL BE AROUND FOR A LONG TIME. THEY DON’T UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS A “TRANSITIONAL CURRENCY”. PEOPLE SAY “WELL THEY NEED TO KEEP IT THE WAY IT IS SO THAT IT WILL BE CREDIBLE AND FORIEGN INSTITUTIONS WILL WANT TO BUSINESS WITH THEM” OR “IT WOULD COST TOO MUCH TO INTRODUCE NEW NOTES” AND SO ON…. I CALL THIS “ DINAR DENIAL”.
TO VENTURE DEEPER INTO WHAT EXACTLY I’M TALKING ABOUT LET US REWINDE BACK TO JULY 7, 2003. WHERE BREMER FORESHADOWED WHAT WILL COME OF THE CURRENCY….BREMER ANNOUNCES IRAQ'S 2003 NATIONAL
BUDGET, CURRENCY CHANGES
Date: July 7, 2003
The administrator for the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq, Paul Bremer, outlined in an address to the Iraqi people July 7 the key spending priorities for the Iraqi national budget over the next six months. These include commitments to improve the water, electrical, public health and telecommunications systems.
"For the first time in 12 years, all of Iraq will again use one set of banknotes," he said, signaling greater economic efficiencies.
Following are the complete text of Ambassador Bremer's July 7 announcements related to the Iraqi economy, answers to frequently asked questions about the new Iraqi currency, and a fact sheet:
Mesaa al khair [Good evening].
I am Paul Bremer, Administrator for the Coalition Provisional Authority.
My number one priority remains, as always, security: providing the security which Iraq needs in order to rebuild. Those who reject progress in Iraq know that they are losing. They are now targeting you and the basic services like water and electricity which you need. If you have information about these renegades, you should tell a coalition military or civilian person. We have already hit them hard. And we will defeat them.
Our second priority is to get the economy going again so that we can create jobs for you. Here , I have a couple of important announcements on the economy.
We have not designed a new currency for Iraq. Only a sovereign Iraqi government could take that decision. So we have taken the designs from the former national dinar (the "Swiss" dinar). But the new notes will be impossible to confuse with the "Swiss" dinar, as both the colors and the denominations will be different. Let me show you an example [show slide]. The new dinars will be printed in a full range of denominations: in 50s; 250s; 1,000s; 5,000s; 10,000s; and 25,000s. They will be higher quality and last longer. They will be very hard to forge, and thus be notes in which all Iraqis can be confident.

Together, these two new developments underline that the coalition, working closely with Iraqis at all levels, is determined to improve the economy of this country, and the lives of all its citizens.
Shakran [Thank you].
On July 7, 2003, the Coalition Provisional Authority released the following responses to frequently asked questions regarding the transition to a new Iraqi banknote:
THE NEW IRAQI BANKNOTES -- QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
What's happening?
New Iraqi banknotes will be introduced on October 15. The normal Iraqi dinars ("print dinars") in circulation in most of Iraq, and the former national dinars ("Swiss dinars") in circulation in parts of Northern Iraq, will be exchanged for this "new Iraqi Dinar".
When is this happening?
The new notes will be ready on October 15.
What happens between now and then?
Nothing. You should continue to use existing banknotes. They continue to have the same value and the same validity. From October 15 until the exchange period ends on January 15, you can use either the current or the new banknotes.
Should I change all my money now into another currency?
No. Your normal Iraqi ("print") dinars will be exchanged directly into new Iraqi dinars at a rate of one to one. Former national ("Swiss") dinars in use in parts of Northern Iraq will be exchanged at a rate of 150 new dinars to one "Swiss" dinar. We are fixing these rates now so that you need not worry.
Where will I have to go to change my money?
To designated exchange points, which will include the branches of the Rafidain and Rasheed banks.
Will I have to change my money immediately after the exchange begins?
No. There will be three months to make the exchange. Throughout the exchange period, both normal ("print") dinars, former national ("Swiss") dinars, and new dinars will be accepted as legal tender.
Won't the value of Iraqi dinars drop between now and October 15, as measured against, say, the dollar?
There is no reason for this to happen. This will not be a new currency, but simply new banknotes.
How will I know when the new notes are ready?
They will be ready on October 15. Announcements will be made in a similar way to this announcement, i.e. by radio, television, newspaper, poster and leaflet.
You're already running out of Iraqi dinars. Won't there be a mad rush to get the new ones?
No. There will be no shortage of the new dinars. And they will be available in many more denominations than are in circulation now.
Why don't you just print more normal Iraqi ("print") dinars?
Because their quality is poor, they don't last. They are also hard to use because of the lack of different denominations. And it's time that the new unified Iraq had one set of banknotes, and notes without the head of Saddam Hussein.
Can I keep dollars if I want to?
Absolutely. In the new free Iraq, you can hold whatever currency you want. But the new dinar will be the official banknotes for the whole of Iraq, from Dohuk to Basra.
Is the coalition trying to take over the Iraqi economy?
Absolutely not. That is why we are introducing new banknotes, based on the original Iraqi dinar design.
Do I really need to change my notes? Won't the new Iraqi government change the design again anyway?
Yes, you should change all your current dinars when the time comes. After the changeover period, the normal Iraqi ("print") dinars, and former national ("Swiss") dinars will no longer be valid. Once there have been national elections, and there is a new Iraqi Government, the new Government may introduce new notes, or a new currency. But this will be further down the line.
Do I need to withdraw all my money from the bank?
No, money held in the banks will be automatically converted for you.
Below is a fact sheet about the new Iraqi dinar that will replace aging Iraqi banknotes beginning October 2003:
FACT SHEET ABOUT NEW IRAQI BANKNOTES
In close consultation with financial experts from Iraq and the international community, a new series of Iraqi banknotes will be introduced from 15 October. These new notes will address problems like the shortage of 250-dinar notes and the poor quality of the notes in circulation.
Some key facts about these banknotes:
The new notes will unify the currency across all of Iraq. Once the exchange of notes has been completed, these notes will be the official banknotes for the entire country.
The official conversion rates will be as follows:
The new banknotes will be available from 15 October 2003.
Official exchange locations will be announced before 15 October. These will include branches of the Rasheed and Rafidain banks.
Exchange will be possible over a three-month period, from 15 October to 15 January. There is no need for people to exchange their notes as soon as the exchange begins.
People who now hold money in bank accounts will not need to withdraw this money to exchange. All bank accounts will be automatically converted to new notes at the official rate.
The new banknotes will look very similar to the former national ("Swiss") dinar notes that were used throughout Iraq until the early 1990's, and are still used in some Northern areas.
-- The new banknotes will have a number of advantages over normal Iraqi ("print") dinars:
-- They will be much better protected against counterfeiting.
-- They will be much more durable and suffer less "wear and tear."
-- They will have many more denominations, so they will be much more convenient for people to use.
The new currency will be fully convertible into other, non-Iraqi currencies -- including the dollar -- at the prevailing market rate.
NOW THEN AFTER READING ALL THIS WHAT DID YOU PICK UP ON? I PICKED UP ON…
“Once there have been national elections, and there is a new Iraqi Government, the new Government may introduce new notes, or a new currency. But this will be further down the line.”
THIS COULD HAPPEN AFTER JANUARY ELECTIONS OR AFTER THE NEXT. ANYONE WHO KNOWS VALUATION OF CURRENCY KNOWS THAT IF THE DINAR WERE TO GAIN VALUE THEY WOULD HAVE TO INTRODUCE LOWER DEMONIATIONS, AS WE HAVE SEEN HERE LATELY.

IF THIS CHANGE OCCURES IN IRAQ AS IT DID LAST TIME THEN YOU WILL BE STUCK WITH WALL PAPER. THE SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM I SEEN EARLY ON… BANK ACCOUNTS AS WE SEE HERE…
“Do I need to withdraw all my money from the bank?
No, money held in the banks will be automatically converted for you.”
SO A BANK ACCOUNT IS A HEDGE. HARD CURRENCY GIVES THE SENSE OF SECUREITY ONLY IN THE FACT THAT IT IS TANGIBLE… NOTHING MORE.
THERE IS ALSO A BELIEF THAT BREMER SAID THAT IT WOULD BE RELEASED ON THE WORLD MARKET, THAT’S A PHALACY WHAT BREMER SAID WAS “The new currency will be fully convertible into other, non-Iraqi currencies -- including the dollar -- at the prevailing market rate.” THIS COULD MEAN JUST IN IRAQ AS WE HAVE SEEN THAT THE CBI CURRENTLY HOLDS OTHER CURRENCY RESERVES SUCH AS DOLLAR, YEN, AND SO ON.
SO THE “PUT IT IN A SHOE BOX AND FORGET ABOUT IT” THEORY COULD NEVER BE MORE WRONG. THE INFLATIONAY NOTES THAT YOU ARE LEFT WITH HAVE BEEN ALREADY PAIED FOR BY SOMEONE ELSE AND IRAQ RECEIVED THE MONEY FOR IT, MAYBE NOT AS MUCH AS YOU PAIED, BUT DEFINATLY A GOOD CHUNK.
NO ONE KNOWS WHEN THE NOTES OR THE CURRENCY WILL CHANGE FOR SURE, BUT THIS DOCUMENT DOES PROVIDE A LITTLE INFO.

Comment by Forest Gump at March 13, 2005 07:09 AM | Permalink
TOO THE WRITER KNOWN AS GUMP!

-- July 13, 2006 9:22 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Nelly B,

I have been looking at your recent post about the value of the Dinar. I agree that when we invaded the dinar wasn't worth $.31/1 ID.

I do believe that the devaluation of the Dinar from 1991 to 2002 was because of the UN sanctions put in place. Every year that they were in place, it brought the Dinar lower and lower until we invaded and it crashed.

As far as being able to trade our ID for a possible new currency... your guess would be as good as anyone, as what will take place. A possible trip to the Middle East may be in all of our futures!

Outlaw

-- July 13, 2006 9:42 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

For those of you who are still in the buying market for dinars; I used to use safedinar.com for my buying. Their prices have become a little high lately. Occasionally I would buy a few off Ebay in low priced auctions. I recently came across 1 seller from Jordan who has become a pretty reliable seller for low denomination bills 250's, 500) at very low prices. His name is Eyad.. His auction ID is randaghaith. I felt a little suspicious at first sending bank money orders to Jordan, but my orders have come in fast with no hang ups. I was burned a couple of times on ebay by sellers "persian_mart" (who never sent the product after payment) and another unnamed ebayer who decided to send out Saddam dinars to see if I would notice. So.. if you're new to the game or looking for reliabilty try this.. safedinar.com is always good too, but watch you prices.

Funny story though.. I wanted to buy 2 million dinars in 250 denominations. When I looked up the shipping I was a little suprised at how high it would be. I almost fogot the physical size of 8000 dinar notes. It would take ruffly 8 fedx boxes to send something that size. Perhaps I'll stick to 25000 denominations. :) Good luck on your buying. Let me know if anyone else has cheap reliable sellers.

-- July 13, 2006 10:28 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Hi been gone with the wind, new pad, cool, have been reading back a bit, and concluded that I can take another weeks vacation.

Were back in speculation, and wait.

Forest, that was a darn good post you wrote, but I must say, it is a very good and factual article from very very long time back.

Time have a tendency to showel things around.

If a dignitary in a high position say -"Absolutely not"
or -" Definitely yes". He might even say the famous -"read my lips" , but when faced with reality a couple of years down the road, he might not even be in charge or in a positon to decide for or against his deep wishes.

Since that article, the Iraqis have themselves taken over the rudder, and even though economical and financial principles stay the same, the decision to change or let things stay the same, the yes or no sayers are not our guys in black suits, and GI's covering the entrances.

Time has moved on.

We have different circumstances, and a complete different world counting only a few years back.

I'm having some thoughts on another subject here.

It might not be a socially acceptable idea that we are doing the right thing with regards to terrorism, but when faced with few options the only workable concept can never be a socially acceptable thing.

Let me take you to the annals of history to get show my point.

In the beginning of WW2, Brittain was under heavy attack from Germany, it's Luftwaffe and the U-boats was wreaking havoc and Brittain was close to it's knees.

Especially important was to get air superiority if an invasion of the Brittish island could be accomplished.

The Germans was right on target, attacking Brittish airfields, bombing anything that had to do with Brittish airpower.

It came to a point where Brittains airpower was down to only a few airplanes, and a handful of very very tired pilots.

In that moment of crisis, Churchill, knowing Hitlers mind, ordered nightbombing of Berlin.

Up to this point of the war, civilian bombing had taken place, but was frown upon.

Hitler got one of his fits, and ordered luftwaffe to start bombing London.

The Brits, got it's needed brake, and could now work on building up its airforce, while the Luftwaffe was bombing London.

Winston Churchil outsmarted Hitler, but got London bombed, with terrible causalties, but the Brittish island was saved.

Until his death, Winston C. never discussed this issue. He didnt even mentioned in his memoirs.

Now, to the point, would it have been socially acceptable for Winston Churchil to stand up during the London blitz, and bragged about how he saved England?

The fact is, by doing exactly what he did, he DID save England.

When it comes to terrorism, I must say, the plan right now, exactly as it is done, is a hell of a smart and functioning plan.

I keep reading each day how in Afghanistan, they get 35 of the terrorists, next day another 23, next day 45 and so on, they even sued for peace a couple of weeks back, but got none.

The special forces, operating there, I dont care if anyone calls them heroes or murder inc. they take care of business.

Iraq insurgency have fallen, internal ethnic warfare has been on the rise, but you have to look closely and realize that that is two different things.

The Iraq insurgency, have been bleeding and bleeding and bleeding. Let them bleed.

It might not be a socially acceptable idea, but it's a darn good plan.

The closer to the heart (Iran)things are gettng the more desperate those guys are getting, they know their days are numbered, and like a true psychotic, wants to take as many as possible with them when they go, so they're going nuclear.

The only way to deal with this is straight head on, and peace movements while having right in the idea, are so endlessly wrong in letting the beast have the world.

Some might find it rewarding to play psychologist and "understand" the burgler, coming into your home, really wants to find out about his childhood, unlucky ways, and misfortune, and can go in the front of a demonstration, demanding criminals right.

They want to make it a socially acceptable position that the criminal is actually the victim.

Enough feebleminded people will actually buy into that idea, and start accusing , the justice system, lawyers, lawmakers, and lobby hard in media for the criminals rights.

US right now, have slid into a halfhearted idea that terrorism is not as real for them as it was only a couple of years back, while the towers was still smoldering.

The means and actions that must be taken against terrorists, can never be socially acceptable. Becaue it involves a lot of blood, but we will survive, and we will win only by doing it.

It's a like it or not situation.

London is burning, like it or not, but England is saved.

If you are upset over London, ok go ahead, be upset.

-- July 13, 2006 10:52 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Okie,Sara,

Thanks for the comments. And I do believe that many of the IOU's are held by the U.S. not to mention the various U.S. based Contractors.

Nelly B,

Strictly my opinions and not quoting anyone. I have been a long term investor (since Mar 04) and started reading TB not long after that. I also have a good memory for facts and figures, especially ones that affect this investment.

Note: I am "NOT" the Lance that posts on other sites, nor am I the dir*bal* that posted on this site way back when as Lance (very abusive and nasty posts for those that remember). I only did my first post on TB a couple of weeks ago after "years" of just being a spectator. And of course I managed to make some stupid comments on the first one. Duh!!!! Also I will only post on TB, as the others give me gas!!!!

I love this site and appreciate the thoughtfull and often entertaining posts by all. All of you keep this a fun place to be.

Thanks to all,

-- July 14, 2006 12:24 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Nelly B,Outlaw,

My post stating "Street Value" of .31 cents to 1 Saddam ID is reflected in the below link (posted Nov 05)plus numerous others that stated the same thing. Took me quite a while to find this site again!!
I track this stuff. Street Value was never a valid exchange/ISX price. But was instead the propped-up price of the Saddam regime. I never meant for it to be taken as the international exchange rate, but for what it was, it's value on the streets of Baghdad for purchasing commodities/items prior to the war. But it does reflect what the common Iraqi buying power internal to Iraq was pre-war. So respectively their purchasing power has gone from 1 ID=$0.31 to 14 NID=$0.01. Quite a drop. And I believe that what ever is being discussed it involves increasing their purchasing power to near pre-war levels.

http://www.mosler.org/wwwboard/messages/2995.shtml

As for to $3.00+ value of the dinar in the olden days, there must be a thousand sites out there that will tell you all about the history/value of the Dinar. Try the old CPA website, I believe that it had info about this.

Happy investing!!!!

-- July 14, 2006 12:58 AM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

From the link in Lance's last post, the below is stated:

"In case of Iraq, do not look at the value of Old Iraqi Dinar of USD: 3.25 before 1991 war, Old Iraqi Dinar was grossly damaged during the period from 1991 to 2003 by Saddam s currency miss-management, as of today, now you have to simply look for the street value of Old ID, before the US attack in April-2003, this will be the correct street value, the maximum value the NID can achieve.

Hence Iraq currency can only recover to the extent of pre-war value of 2003 that too under normal economic conditions."

So, what was the street value of the ID before the attack in 2003?

I know there is a difference, but the CIB gives the official exchange rate in 2002 as 1957 ID / $1 US. So by the official rates, the value is already 32% higher than it was in 2002. I just can't see that there is a huge rebound to be had.

-- July 14, 2006 2:22 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Let the construction begin.....
At some point in time they're going to need a more valuable Dinar to pay for these goodies...

Energy - Oil & Gas

Iraq to build oil refinery in Kurdistan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ARBIL, Iraq, 13 July 2006 (UPI)
Iraq's oil minister announced plans Wednesday to build Iraq's largest oil refinery in the western region of Kurdistan.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php?refid=DH-S-14-07-2006&article=9340

-- July 14, 2006 8:50 AM ∞

---

SGT AT SPOD wrote:

Everyone,

I have been called back for TDY for at least the next 90 days (indefinite). I will continue to check the site as I can, and when information pertinent presents itself, I'll let you guys know...

Take care...

I am "SGT AT SPOD"

-- July 14, 2006 9:48 AM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

SGT AT SPOD,

I have been told by a friend in the Green Zone that it is a mess out side the wire... Be careful my friend.

Outlaw

-- July 14, 2006 10:06 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Nelly B.....

This is the best info I can find on the pre-war value of the Dinar. This article indicates the Dinar was 6.7 to the $ which would be around fifteen US cents. I think during that time frame it depended on which part of the country you were in and if you had regular Dinars or the Swiss Dinars.

The former national ("Swiss") dinar notes were used
throughout Iraq until the early 1990's, and this national currency still circulated in the
Kurdish north. The bills nicknamed "Swiss dinar" either because of their relative
stability and strength or because it was made in Europe, depending on the account.
The Swiss dinar was trading at about 6.7 to the dollar in early July 2003.

http://www.dinar-into-dollars.com/dinar_history.html

-- July 14, 2006 11:10 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

IT MAKES NO SENSE FOR THEM TO ZERO LOP TODAY

Roger wrote:

Time has a tendency to shovel things around.

If a dignitary in a high position says -"Absolutely not" or -" Definitely yes". He might even say the famous -"read my lips" , but when faced with reality a couple of years down the road, he might not even be in charge or in a positon to decide for or against his deep wishes.

Since that article, the Iraqis have themselves taken over the rudder, and even though economical and financial principles stay the same, the decision to change or let things stay the same, the yes or no sayers are not our guys in black suits, and GI's covering the entrances.

Time has moved on.

===end of quote===

Roger, I agree.

TIME HAS MOVED ON..

So much of what is discussed on the board has been old info rehashed a million times over...

I was hoping the article I posted which was dated July 13th.. that is YESTERDAY:

Zero Lop or Zero Lopping the Dinar Analysis
13/07/2006

http://www.iraqdirectory.com/DisplayNews.aspx?id=1677

... Would help move us into discussion which is more up to date and relevant.

It said:

Russia and Afghanistan are often compared to the Iraqi Dinar...

However, they have little in common to the Iraqi Dinar and the speculation about the zero lop.

The article states, "Iraq has already printed and established a single national currency, with secure features and knows exactly how much is in circulation."

Even though WE were wondering and speculating about how much is is circulation, it is known by Iraq.

The conclusion of the article I thought very important when it said:

"It makes no sense for them to change the face of the currency, when they are talking about increasing the value to fit their economic goals. If Iraq did zero lopping off the structure of the bills, they would overlap denominations that already exist. This does not make sense or fit the stated goals with the Iraqi Dinar. It seems that a zero lop, or zero lopping would not occur with the denominations of the Dinar, but by increasing it's value with a revalue that would benefit their economy and their poor in a positive way."

NO ONE seems to have addressed this.. which I felt was up to date and relevant information which is not based on some old and outdated model, and not a rehash of old information that has been around for years and years and which has not changed one bit to take into account the new realities and current stated economic goals in Iraq.

I would like to point out that it says it MAKES NO SENSE.. for them to zero lop. That is something I think should be seen as IMPORTANT!!!

Sara.

-- July 14, 2006 12:35 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

SGT AT SPOD.....

Take care....keep your head down....and get back on the Forum ASAP so we'll know all is well.

-- July 14, 2006 12:56 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Sara,

You bring up my point in a more elegant way that I could ever express myself.

1. A lot of old info from years back is still circulating , and sometimes the relevancy of it is not current.

(who gives a rats ass about a long discussion regarding the Dinar value during the Brittish Rule)

2. It makes no sense zero looping.

However, I can sense two sources of information , the for and against.

The for, is the official statements and announcements from Iraq official sources, might it be an interview or article, but it seems to come from Iraq official sources, as far as I can judge.

The against, seem to come from free thinkers outside of the Iraq official system.

So far I have not seen any indication from the official sources that they start waivering or have doubts, or second thoughts about the zero looping.

-- July 14, 2006 1:39 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

SGT AT SPOD;

You are in my prayers. :)
God keep you and yours safe.

Roger;

You say the Zero Lop comes from Iraqi sources. The ONLY thing I have seen in the news is a SUGGESTION, one which is of LONG STANDING and not a new suggestion (and thus not seized upon the first time it was suggested, which may indicate it isn't a GREAT suggestion) that this MIGHT be a course of action to take.
Quote:

Iraq plans to revalue currency (07/07/06)

Iraq is CONSIDERING redenominating the dinar, printing new banknotes to remove inflation-generated zeros from its currency, THE FINANCE MINISTER SAID yesterday.

Senior government and central bank officials have said the PROPOSAL has been under consideration FOR SOME TIME to make one new dinar equal to 1,000 current dinars, a move that would bring the currency closer to parity with the US dollar.

Asked about such a SUGGESTION in an interview on Arabiya television, Finance Minister Bayan Jabor said: "This is the ministry's SUGGESTION to the central bank. WE THINK in the long term it will be for the benefit of Iraq."

http://www.iraqdevelopmentprogram.org/idp/news/new1297.htm

This is NOT stated Iraqi policy nor has it been adopted.

When you say, quote:

"So far I have not seen any indication from the official sources that they start waivering or have doubts, or second thoughts about the zero lopping."

I do not see that as being substantiated from the news. All I have seen is a SUGGESTION by the finance minister to the Central Bank of Iraq.

Now, last time I checked, the person actually making the decision to zero lop or not was not the one making the SUGGESTION - that is the finance minister.. but those to whom he suggested this - namely the CBI. When we hear from THEM, the ones who have the actual power to zero lop within the CBI, that they are adopting this suggestion of zero lop, then I may take this SUGGESTION much more seriously. Until then, it is merely a recommendation which has received widespread media coverage.

Sara.

-- July 14, 2006 3:26 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

This forum has such a wide range of thoughts on different subjects, and people looking for answers, it might do us good to follow the directions my Grandma gave to me when I was just a kid......

"If you want expert advice....Pray!"

Considering the subject we're discussing it might help us.....

Com'on Dinar!!!

-- July 14, 2006 3:29 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

A few posts ago, I stated I am moving forward with buying $2,000,000 Dinar. My other purchases have all been uncirculated currency. I am considering the purchase of circulated bills. Should I continue to purchase only uncirculated bills or should I step out and buy currency that has been circulated? Does it make a difference?

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 14, 2006 4:10 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Sara, Time has moved on yes, but the infomation that you are stating as posted on 13/7/06:
http://www.iraqdirectory.com/DisplayNews.aspx?id=1677 and also directly copied from here:
http://www.dinar-into-dollars.com/zero_lop_analysis.html was just rehashed from here:
http://www.iraqiwiki.com/wiki/index.php/The_Zero_lopping_argument
If you look at the comments on that page AFTER the article, there are dates of October 2004 and onwards. This is not new news.
Also note in the text is states that the lowest denomination of the dinar is 25. Correct me if I am wrong, but it is 50, right? this would mean the text is also inaccurate.

The most recent significant news is the Iraq Finance Minister suggesting a 3 zero lop to realign the the dinar close to the dollar. That is what is important.

Yes we should deabte whether or not this could or will happen, but we should also anticipate the effects on our investments if it DOES happen. I believe it will.

-- July 14, 2006 4:53 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Rob N:

This is just my own opinion and I am just like you, looking from the outside, in.

It is just the condition of the currency that is important. Only worry about the 'integrity' of the circulated notes if they are worn, damaged, degraded to a state in which they would not be accepted by a bank. Other than that, I see no difference between circulated or uncirculated notes.

-- July 14, 2006 5:03 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Okie wrote:

Nelly B.....

This is the best info I can find on the pre-war value of the Dinar. This article indicates the Dinar was 6.7 to the $ which would be around fifteen US cents. I think during that time frame it depended on which part of the country you were in and if you had regular Dinars or the Swiss Dinars.

The former national ("Swiss") dinar notes were used
throughout Iraq until the early 1990's, and this national currency still circulated in the
Kurdish north. The bills nicknamed "Swiss dinar" either because of their relative
stability and strength or because it was made in Europe, depending on the account.
The Swiss dinar was trading at about 6.7 to the dollar in early July 2003.

http://www.dinar-into-dollars.com/dinar_history.html
- - - - -
Thanks for the input, Okie.

On that very same page, the following is stated:

"The Iraqi dinar was worth $US 3.20 before the United Nations embargo that followed
Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait. By August 2002 it was trading at just below 2000 to
the US dollar, and by mid-April 2003 it had slipped to anywhere between 3500 and
4000 against the dollar. In July 2003 one US dollar equaled about 1,500 Iraqi dinars

This new Iraqi currency was made available to the Iraqi people on 15 October 2003.
They replaced the existing Iraqi "print" dinars at parity: one new Iraqi dinar was worth
the same as one "print" dinar. The new dinar replaced the "Swiss" dinar at the rate of
150 new dinars to one Swiss dinar. These different rates reflected the different
prices, expressed in local currency, in different parts of the country."

End of quote.

This swiss dinars traded at 6.7 to $1 were valued at 150 x the rate of 1 ID. The NID has replaced both the ID and the Swiss dinar. This does not make the NID worth the same rate as the swiss dinar was.

During 1990 to 2003, Saddam had trillions of additional currency printed, as this was the only way to pay the troops returning from the Kuwait incurrsion. This is the major reason the dinars (and the replacement NIDs) were so devalued and remain so. When the NIDS were issued, they were swapped out for the old IDs at a 1:1 rate and for the swiss dinars at a 150:1 rate. The values were not realigned to a now (October 2003) reduced amount of currency in circulation. This is why the value remains so low.
Hmmm. Almost talked myself into thinking a revalue could happen there...

-- July 14, 2006 6:20 PM ∞

---

bert wrote:

sara -i think the 25 coins where stolen, still in the trucks.they never made it out.

-- July 14, 2006 8:31 PM ∞

---

bert wrote:

sara -i think the 25 coins where stolen, still in the trucks.they never made it out.i think?

-- July 14, 2006 8:31 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Our dreams are in our grasp.

Iraqi Dinar zero loop, we got our gasp.

No one knows what's gonna play.

Best suggestion is to pray.

The punchline sucks cause I dont know what rhimes with gasp.

-- July 14, 2006 8:31 PM ∞

---

Anonymous wrote:

i guess once wasn't enough.sorry for the double post.

-- July 14, 2006 8:32 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Hey, do a better one

-- July 14, 2006 8:34 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Anynomous, if you want to stay anynomous, dont post as Bert, and come back as Anynomous, it kind of blows your cover.

-- July 14, 2006 8:36 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Hah, remeber some time ago, we had it up on discussion the scenario that if the zero loop takes place, and it's pegged to the Dollar, but still it's a non flowing, non exchangeable currency on the international currency exchange market.

So that would leave us with a bunch of Dinars that can only be exchanged in Iraq, if we want to get Dollars for it.

There was a mention, that if that happened, the Dinar dealers would probably get us for the second time and set something up.

Right on, here it is, the first Dinar Dollar exchange just poped up (pooped up), for a cost of 5% of total value, that seems to be the deal.

Ok fair and square, so at least that aspect is covered. 5% dont seem to be too far away from banks buying and selling price for a bank traded currency, so I would'nt take a puke on the Dinar dealers doing it.

At least there is one outlet, and you can bet there will be more popping up as time goes by.

-- July 14, 2006 9:30 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

sorry, its at:

www.exchangeyourdinar.com

-- July 14, 2006 10:28 PM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

What is everyone's general opinion of the zero lopping...do you think it will happen or not...why or why not?

-- July 14, 2006 11:24 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Bob;

The arguments AGAINST a zero lop are still very credible and solid so far as I can tell. I still think it makes no sense to do a zero lop - for a variety of reasons - this being very important as one of them:

"It makes no sense for them to change the face of the currency, when they are talking about increasing the value to fit their economic goals. If Iraq did zero lopping off the structure of the bills, they would overlap denominations that already exist. This does not make sense or fit the stated goals with the Iraqi Dinar. It seems that a zero lop, or zero lopping would not occur with the denominations of the Dinar, but by increasing it's value with a revalue that would benefit their economy and their poor in a positive way."

However, I think in time the correct version of what is going to happen will be proven by world events. After all, as I think I said before.. it isn't the minister of finance's call on whether it happens, but those to whom he SUGGESTED the zero lop.. and their verdict has not yet been given.

Sara.

-- July 14, 2006 11:51 PM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

Sara,

Thank you for the reply. I agree....I cant figure in my mind how a zero lopping could possibly bolster their economy nor how it would fit into their economic goals....I hope that the CBI and the World Bank think like we do...and most definitely the world events will be a HUGE factor.....the Middle East is total chaos right now....if it isnt one thing....it is another over here......We think we are getting Iraq straightened out and then the Hezbollah and Israel are going at it...then the Syrians want to get involved.....then the Iranians threaten Israel if they retaliate against Syria....what a mess.

-- July 15, 2006 1:28 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Bob;

I agree. I cannot see zero lopping bolstering their economy or fitting with the economic goals which they have recently stated. I think Nelly B missed the point. As the article I quoted pointed out (in a statement which becomes increasingly more relevant as time goes by), a zero lop goes AGAINST the current, up to date, and stated goals of the government of Iraq!!

And, as turtle pointed out in his post (below), one important reason not to zero lop is that it would make the Iraqis very upset with their politicians.. And committing political suicide is not often a normal and rational move for most politicians..

http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/04/iraqi_dinar_dis_3.html#121995

Quote: "That folks would not just be financial crazy but social suicide in this country right now."

I think that opinion has a lot of validity.. as well as his comment in the post about PERCEPTION being everything in Arab countries.

Nelly B also said, "The most recent significant news is the Iraq Finance Minister SUGGESTING a 3 zero lop to realign the the dinar close to the dollar. That is what is important."

But, as I stated recently, I think it is merely a SUGGESTION or recommendation, though one which has received widespread media coverage. This is like when Rep. Murtha repeatedly SUGGESTED the US pull all the troops out of Iraq.. until they voted on it and defeated the measure.

Quote:

House Rejects Timetable for Iraq Pullout
Jun 16, 2006 By LIZ SIDOTI

WASHINGTON (AP) - The House on Friday rejected a timetable for pulling U.S. forces out of Iraq after a ferociously partisan debate, forcing lawmakers in both parties to go on record on a major issue in re-election campaigns nationwide.

A day after the Senate took the same position against troop withdrawal, the GOP-led House voted 256-153 to approve a nonbinding resolution that says an "arbitrary date for the withdrawal or redeployment" of American forces is not in the national interest.

Republicans and Democrats alike explained the decision, as each side saw it, that confronts voters.

"The choice for the American people is clear; don't run in the face of danger, victory will be our exit strategy," Rep. Mike Conaway, R-Texas, said.

Countered Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa.: "It's not a matter of stay the course. It's a matter of change direction."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060616/D8I9HBD00.html

Rep. John Murtha may have SUGGESTED in very strong tones that the troops should be pulled out, but it is only important what was eventually ADOPTED, not what he suggested. In a similar manner, in the case of zero lopping, there is a HUGE difference between a SUGGESTION (even by the finance minister) and the actual adopting of that suggestion, don't you think?

Let me put it this way... let's change the players in that recent news story (above) and see how it sounds..

====My fictitious quote for illustration=====

The US is CONSIDERING redenominating the dollar, printing new banknotes to remove inflation-generated zeros from its currency, Rep Murtha said yesterday.

Senior Bush government and central bank officials have said the PROPOSAL has been under consideration FOR SOME TIME to make one new dollar equal to 1,000 current dollars, a move that would bring the currency closer to parity with the Euro.

Asked about such a SUGGESTION in an interview on US television, Rep. John Murtha said: "This is the ministry's SUGGESTION to the central bank. WE THINK in the long term it will be for the benefit of the US."

====end of My fictitious quote for illustration===

How much credibility would you give to the suggestion by Rep. Murtha in this story? Doesn't it depend on WHO has the POWER to zero lop? And what are those with the power to actually DO a zero lop saying? The "Senior government and central bank officials" are being polite and saying.. "Um... yes.. well...", (quote): "the PROPOSAL has been under consideration FOR SOME TIME.." Kind of like you would expect the Bush administration to react to the above fictitious Rep. Murtha proposal. They would not wish to offend him by flat out saying it is not a suggestion they wish to entertain, but on the other hand, that may not exactly be the kind of suggestion they are really keen on adopting. This was a POLITE reply.. but do note that they were NOT saying.. "Yes, the Holy Grail!! THIS is the suggestion of the century! We will implement a zero lop and it will solve all our difficulties!! What a brilliant suggestion!! We will ADOPT it!!" Were they? That WASN'T the general reply of the CBI, was it?

When Nelly B suggests: "we should deabte whether or not this could or will happen, but we should also anticipate the effects on our investments if it DOES happen. I believe it will."

I see it much as the "ferociously partisan debate" over the troops leaving... it may be a heated debate, but it will not accomplish much in the end and is a waste of time and effort. Though the Democrats may debate the issue and bring it up every two minutes to try and force debate on the point over and over and over.. I think it wiser to wait to see how this pans out with the real decision makers rather than spend useless time discussing bridges which we have not yet even seen (a zero lop)... and then theoretically crossing them and building castles in the sand on the other side.

Sara.

-- July 15, 2006 2:29 AM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

Just imagine what it will do for our economy if the dinar revalues without zero lopping...depending on the revalue....imagine the revenue that will generate for the big companies that invested....and the increased consumer spending it will create for us investors that have bought the currency.

-- July 15, 2006 3:49 AM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Sara Madgid wrote:

When Nelly B suggests: "we should debate whether or not this could or will happen, but we should also anticipate the effects on our investments if it DOES happen. I believe it will."

I see it much as the "ferociously partisan debate" over the troops leaving... it may be a "heated debate, but it will not accomplish much in the end and is a waste of time and effort. Though the Democrats may debate the issue and bring it up every two minutes to try and force debate on the point over and over and over.. I think it wiser to wait to see how this pans out with the real decision makers rather than spend useless time discussing bridges which we have not yet even seen (a zero lop)... and then theoretically crossing them and building castles in the sand on the other side.

Sara.
- - - -

"Sigh" I like to be prepared for real possibilities, based on real events (the suggested proposal of zero lop by finance minister) Most of the talk here seems to be endlessly optimistic about the possibilty of a revalue to a hugely inflated amount. Is that any less of a waste of time and effort?

Also if the following were to happen as per Sara's mock scenario:

"Senior Bush government and central bank officials have said the PROPOSAL has been under consideration FOR SOME TIME to make one new dollar equal to 1,000 current dollars, a move that would bring the currency closer to parity with the Euro"

That might hold some weight, if at the time it cost 1000 Dollars to buy one Euro! just as it now costs 1477 dinars to buy one Dollar.

At the present time, if the Dinar is zero lopped, it has little effect outside of Iraq. Wages and street prices would just be adjusted to the new values. To me it makes perfect sense that they would and could do this now, before major foreign investment takes place and the dinar is traded on the Foreign Exchange. Once it trades on the Forex, they can not carry out a zero lop or redenomination without having worldwide repercussions for those that hold the currency.

It makes no difference if the denominations of a new set of notes would overlap the current NIDs. The old notes would be exchanged at a bank at the correct rate for the new ones. (just as happened with the swap out of both ID's and Swiss dinars which had different values) There would obviously need to be a difference in apperance of the reprinted notes and during the transitional period between the two currencies being in circulation, the street-worth of the old currency would not be the same as the new currency, even if the face value was the same.

The cost of reprinting and redistribution (approx $150 - $200 million) of a new currency is not prohibitive to this happening. The cost of a redenomination after major investment and world trading in Iraq currency would be vastly more and would also destabilise the integrity of the currency and investor's confidence.

Yes, time has moved on, but he NID was only ever intended to be an interim currency. What has changed to change that fact?

Denying the possibility that the zero lop (with a newly denominated currency) could happen is akin to putting ones head in the sand. It is ignoring all the most critical indicators from the most influencial sources.

-- July 15, 2006 5:45 AM ∞

---

old head wrote:

This is not going to please many people. I have been observing for a while and have drawn a conclusion. Holders of the physical Dinar in this country are going to be in for a shock. I saw currency exchanges in person in Vietnam. It happens and it happens very very quickly.... overnight. if there is a re-evaluation in the Dinar you can rest assured there will be a new note to take the place of the old one. And there will not be a whisper of it coming. People will line up and turn in old currency for new currency. Unless you are in that line you are going to lose. Bank accounts will re-value overnight and what once may have been 250,000 will be 250. no loss, no gain. Dreaming that 250.00 Dinar will instantly become $250,000 is just that, a dream. The people who stand to become millionares have already done so by selling Dinars to those with closets full of future wall paper. Sorry folks, there is no free lunch. No doubt that Iraq will prosper and become free and prosperous state due to the efforts of the Iraqi people and the dedication of our soldiers but comparing it to what happened in Kuwait is folly IMHO. My choice for an investment in the country would be to open an account in Iraq and deposit funds into that account. Forget them for twenty years and exchange them at retirement. Nelly B hit the nail on the head

old head

-- July 15, 2006 7:22 AM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

All we can do is wait and see.

-- July 15, 2006 9:32 AM ∞

---

MissDinar wrote:

There will be NO zero lop, the dnar will have a internal increase initially say 1475 to 475. Then around the end of te month it will hit the forex at anyway between .68 - 1.12. Trust me were are going to be RICH

-- July 15, 2006 9:51 AM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

MissDinar...I love your way of thinking...however may I ask your basis on that?

-- July 15, 2006 10:10 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

For thousands of years Iraq has been a rich country just based on their water supplies and agriculture. Oil is a great addition to their wealth.

______________________________________

Cash cow recovers after years of turmoil


IRAQ’S economy is built on its vast oil reserves. Oil and crude materials, excluding fuel, make up 91 per cent of its exports. Livestock and food account for another 5 per cent of its revenues. Iraq’s industries also include textiles, pharmaceutical products, cement, steel and petrochemicals. Its agricultural sector produces wheat, barley, rice, vegetables, cotton and dates.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9072-2270655,00.html

-- July 15, 2006 10:49 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

A lot of good conversation related to the Pros and Cons about Iraq and our investment in their currency.

I think we’re overlooking a very a very positive fact regarding the current and future path of Iraq. The US, the richest and most powerful country on this planet and the next one over, has declared they want Iraq to be a bright and shining example of a Democratic style of Government in the Middle East. Contrary to the comments from the US liberal press and with help from some powerful friends, this goal of the US and our friends is actually making outstanding progress.

Iraq is quickly getting ready to enter the world arena with a very different type of Government. Does anybody really think they will come into the world markets with a currency that has less value than Afganistan? I don’t think so.

-- July 15, 2006 10:53 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

old head & Miss Dinar.....

I enjoy reading both sides of thought on the dinar so keep them coming.....

My investment thinking is more like Miss Dinar....I think it will hit the market with a very good value....

-- July 15, 2006 11:08 AM ∞

---

MissDinar wrote:

This is based on information I have from a source inside the ISX. He has been very accurate upto now with his facts. The bottom line is, we have all been in this for a long time, willing the reval to happen, but still we have people spending alot of time explaining why it cannot. It is going to happen so go with the flow and enjoy your money.

-- July 15, 2006 11:34 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Interesting info, MissDinar. Thanks for contributing it. :)

Okie;

You said:

"Iraq is quickly getting ready to enter the world arena with a very different type of Government. Does anybody really think they will come into the world markets with a currency that has less value than Afganistan? I don’t think so."

Very good point! :)

I agree with Bob and think that we must wait and see. (We're all developing patience.)

Sara.

-- July 15, 2006 12:15 PM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

I have been in Bagram Afghanistan and have been outside the wire; have seen this country to include the capital Kabul; this is a very poor country at best. There is no way in the world that I can see Iraq like this.

-- July 15, 2006 1:14 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

THERE ARE CERTAIN TRUTHS THAT NEVER CHANGE

1. The Humanoid Species always does things for a reason
2. All things are first created by thought
3. Nothing lies within a vacuum as all things are connected

With that in mind allow me to think out loud here for a minute...
First, as a dinar investor I want you and I both to prosper from our adventure here..
With that said...let me point out a few things...

FACT: IRAN WAS THE PRIMARY INTELLEGENCE FEED THAT THE USA USED TO REMOVE SADDAM

FACT: THE US OF A DID WHAT IRAN COULD NOT DO IN 8 YEARS OF WAR WITH SADDAM

FACT: THE PRESENT IRANIAN REGIME BELIEVES STRONGLY IN THE 12 IMAN THEORY

FACT: THE PRESENT IRANIAN LEADERS BELIEVE THAT A MAJOR CATASTROPHIC EVENT RESULTING IN A LARGE LOSS OF LIFE AND DEVASTATION IS NEEDED IN ORDER FOR THE IMAN TO RETURN

FACT: THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT SEES NO ROAD BLOCK IN CAUSING THAT EVENT TO HAPPEN...AND THE SOONER THE BETTER...THEY ARE NOW BUILDING A PALACE FOR THE RETURN OF THE IMAM

FACT: THE IRANIAN RUSE OF FIGHTING OVER THE RIGHT TO PRODUCE NUCLEAR MATERIAL FOR ENERGY IS BEING USED AS THE CATALYST TO IGNITE AND UNIT THE ARAB WORLD

FACT: FOR OVER A YEAR NOW I HAVE POSTED THAT IRAN'S TOTAL INTENTION IS TO RE-UNITE THE OLD PERSIA INTO THE NEW PERSIAN EMPIRE...THAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF HAVING SADDAM REMOVED...IT COULD NOT BE DONE WITH IRAQ

FACT: IRAN NOW HAS MORE INFLUENCE WITH THE IRAQI POPULATION OF SHIA THAT EVER BEFORE

FACT: SINCE THE OTTOMAN PERIOD, THE SUNNI HAVE BEEN IN CONTROL...EVEN DURING OCCUPATION OF THE BRITISH...NOW FOR THE FIRST TIME THE SHIA ARE IN CONTROL..

FACT: THE SUNNI HAVE FOR CENTURIES LOOKED DOWN ON THE SHIA AS IGNORANT, SUPERSTIOUS TRASH..

FACT: DURING MY POST I HAVE STATED, THAT IRAN WILL ATTEMPT TO DO IT BY THE FOLLOWING:
1. UNITE THE SHIA PEOPLE UNDER THE BANNER OF THE ISLAM FAITH
2. UNITE ALL OF THE ARAB PEOPLE IN OTHER COUNTRIES SURROUNDING IRAN AND IRAQ UNDER THE PRIDE OF BEING AN ARAB

FACT: THE HAMAS AND HEZBALAH ARE CONTROLLED BY THE IRAN REGIME

FACT: BOTH INCIDENTS NOW ON GOING WERE CONTROLLED AND INSTIGATED BY THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT

FACT: IRAN HAS MADE THE STATEMENT WE WILL NOT STAND BY AN ALLOW DEMOCRACY TO STAND IN THE MIDDLE EAST

FACT: BOTH IRAQ AND LEBANON HAVE FLEDGING AND TODDLER STEPPING DEMOCRACIES

FACT: THE HAMAS AND HEZBALAH STARTED THE INCIDENTS AND BLAME ISRAEL FOR MAKING THEM DO IT

FACT: IRAN HAS DIRECT AND INDIRECT INFLUENCE WITHIN THE IRAQI GOVERNMENT

FACT: IRAN HAS DIRECT CONTROL OVER SADR WHO HAS DIRECT CONTROL OVER THE MILITIA

FACT: THE MILITIA UNDER THE CONTROL OF SADR IS THE MAIN INSTIGATOR MURDER, ETHNIC CLEANSING,KIDNAPPINGS, DISRUPTION OF ECONOMIC SERVICES, DISRUPTION OF THE TRANSITION INTO A OPERATING IRAQI GOVERNMENT. SADR HAS BEEN AND IS ONE OF THE MAJOR ROAD BLOCKS TO A SMOOTHER TRANSITION...YET THE PRESENT GOVERNMENT WILL NOT REMOVE HIM...HE HAS BEEN GIVEN INDIRECT POWER BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF BACKBONE WITHIN THE PRESENT IRAQI GOVERNMENT

FACT: IRAN CONTROLS SADR WHO JUST MADE A STATEMENT THAT IRAQIS WOULD NOT ALLOW ISRAEL TO STRIKE LEBANON WITHOUT JOINING IN AND HELPING THEIR "ARAB BROTHERS"

FACT: SADR ALSO MADE IT CLEAR HE CONSIDERED AMERICA TO BE JUST AS GUILTY AS ISRAEL

FACT: SYRIA MADE THE STATEMENT WE WILL NOT ALLOW OUR ARAB BROTHERS TO FIGHT ALONE

FACT: IRAN MADE STATEMENT ATTACK SYRIA AND THE ENTIRE REGION OF ARABS WILL RESPOND..THUS MAKING AN ATTEMPT TO SPEAK FOR OTHER ARAB NATIONS...OTHER ARAB NATIONS REMAINED SILENT WHEN THE IRANIAN PRESIDENT STATED ISRAEL SHOULD BE REMOVE FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH...IN THE ARAB CULTURE SILENCE IS A SIGN OF AGREEMENT...

FACT: AS OF TODAY ...SADR NOW HAS HIS CLERICS GIVING FIRE BRAND MESSAGES INCITING THE MILITAS AND SHIA PEOPLE TOWARD JOINING THE HEZBALAH,HAMAS AND ATTACKING THE COALITION FORCES

FACT: IRAN HAS NOW SENT OVER SOLDIERS TO FIGHT WITH THE HEZBALAH ESPECIALLY TO LAUNCH DRONES AND ROCKETS...SO IRAN HAS NOW BECOME DIRECTLY INVOLVED...

FACT: IRAN TIMED THIS FOR THE G-8 SUMMIT...TO DETRACT FROM THE NUCLEAR ISSUE

MY THOUGHTS: IRAN HAS STARTED THEIR MOVE TO UNITE THE ARAB PEOPLE AS ONE FIGHTING FORCE...THERE WILL BE OTHER MAJOR INCIDENTS COMING...THE MIDDLE EAST 2 YEARS FROM NOW WILL NOT BE AS YOU SEE IT TODAY...IRAN HAS NOW MOVED SOME OF THEIR PIECES ON THE BOARD TO STRENGHTEN THEIR POSITION IN CONTROLLING IRAQ...LOOK FOR A DIRECT OR INDIRECT PUSH ....THE BIG FIRE WORKS WILL START IN SPRING OF 2007...IRAQ MAY NOT BE ABLE TO SURVIVE THIS TURMOIL IN ITS PRESENT GOVERNMENTAL STATE...IF THEY HAVE TO...THE IRAQ GOVERNMENT WILL TURN ON THE COALITION FORCES TO SAVE ITSELF...THIS WILL NOT BE A EASY DECISION BUT A RESONABLE ONE IN ORDER TO SURVIVE THE EXPANDING HATE FOR THE USA AND ISRAEL..

I LOVE TO TALK ABOUT THE DINAR AND IT REVALUING...BUT DO YOU REALLY THINK THE DINAR SETS IN A VACUUM AND THE SITUATION IN LEBANON AND GAZA WILL HAVE NO AFFECT .......

I FEEL THE ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST AREA IS ON THE BRINK....IT CAN GO EITHER WAY....OUR ARM FORCES IN IRAQ IF NOT BY NOW...SHOULD BE ON HIGH ALERT...FOR I FEEL THEY ARE IN THE MOST EXTREME DANGER SINCE OUR FORCES LANDED THERE..IRAN AS I WRITE THIS IS DOING ITS LEVEL BEST TO IGNITE THE REGION EVEN MORE...THIS INTURN WILL INFLAME THE SHIA OF IRAQ...THUS START THE UNITING THE PERSIA OF OLD WITH "THE PERSIA OF TODAY"

-- July 15, 2006 1:23 PM ∞

---

Turtle wrote:

In an old post someone had some rough numbers on current amount of NID on the market vs current amount of foreign currency held by the INB. If I remember right, they figured that if the dinar was pegged to the dollar based on the value of foreign money the NID would be worth $0.28. Can anyone find current numbers?

The last I heard the US government was the largest owner of NID. If that is true, the US government and the current administration have just as much to gain from seeing the NID skyrocket as we do. Imagine how beneficial it would be in an election year to pay off a large chunk of US debt, push oil/fuel prices down, and post another success in Iraq story. It may not happen, but I can place bets on what the government is pushing for. I doubt that pushing is limited to the Iraqi government either. I wonder how much influence the US has on World Bank decisions? Anyway, for us it is a dream, for them it breathes political life. I'm sure other nations involved would not mind either.

-- July 15, 2006 1:58 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Carl,
Master piece. You set the pieces straight. Perhaps the old prophet Nostradamus was right, when he talked about the rise of the Blue Turban as the last big war.

-- July 15, 2006 2:04 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Okie wrote:

old head & Miss Dinar.....

I enjoy reading both sides of thought on the dinar so keep them coming.....

My investment thinking is more like Miss Dinar....I think it will hit the market with a very good value....

-- July 15, 2006 11:08 AM

- - - - -
Okie, Miss Dinar, Sara: I wish I could share in your optimisim at the present time. I got into this venture around 4 months ago and bought a substantial amount more dinars just around a month ago, largely of the back of the 'info' Taxmama was saying at that time. Until just a few weeks ago, I was as optimistic as anyone and thought a zero lop was a crazy impossibility.

The reason for my change of heart (I still see my view as a realist, not a pessamist) is the undeniably worrying fact that the Iraqi Finance Minister is has proposed a zero lop. It makes sense to me to make this public knowledge if it is simply a proposal to change the denominations of currency. If there were to be a change in the dinar/dollar EXCHANGE RATE by a factor of 1000, a zero lop would be so way off the mark as to be unthinkable. surely the Iraqi Finance Minister has at the very least, a 'fair idea' of the direction the currency needs to go in?!

Consider this... If the information was leaked or 'broadcast' to the worldwide media that the exchange rate was suddenly going to change by a factor of 1000 I.E. a Dinar was shortly going to be worth 68cents, every man woman and child who has a buck to their name would swamp every Dinar seller on earth to buy the currency. Is that happening at this present time? I don't think so. Who's interests would it be in to release this information to the news? Certainly not Iraqs!

I agree the dinar will hit the market at a good value... the New currency will be around 1 Dinar to the Dollar, AFTER the zero lop!

-- July 15, 2006 2:11 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Okie wrote:

A lot of good conversation related to the Pros and Cons about Iraq and our investment in their currency.

I think we’re overlooking a very a very positive fact regarding the current and future path of Iraq. The US, the richest and most powerful country on this planet and the next one over, has declared they want Iraq to be a bright and shining example of a Democratic style of Government in the Middle East. Contrary to the comments from the US liberal press and with help from some powerful friends, this goal of the US and our friends is actually making outstanding progress.

Iraq is quickly getting ready to enter the world arena with a very different type of Government. Does anybody really think they will come into the world markets with a currency that has less value than Afganistan? I don’t think so.

- - - - -
End of quote.

1) If Iraq were to revalue so that 1 NID was worth 68cents, the 4.5 to 9+ trillion NIDs in circulation would be worth between 3.06 and 6.12+ trillion dollars ($3.06,000,000,000,000 to $6.12,000,000,000,000+)
This would dwarf the $700 billion (700,000,000,000) currency in circulation in the United States.
http://www.gocurrency.com/countries/united_states.htm

Who thinks Iraq is worth this much in its present state? Anyone?

2) May I direct you to one of Sara's posts, where she tells us that Afganistan has already had a zero lop:
http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#122137

I agree, that Iraq has more worth as a country than Afganistan and that it is unlikely that Iraq will come to the world markets with a currency worth less than that of Afganistan. That is why I can see very clearly why the Iraqi Finance Minister is suggesting that the dinar take a move in this direction by zero lopping. This will make exactly that happen.

-- July 15, 2006 3:03 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

MissDinar wrote:

There will be NO zero lop, the dnar will have a internal increase initially say 1475 to 475. Then around the end of te month it will hit the forex at anyway between .68 - 1.12. Trust me were are going to be RICH

-- July 15, 2006 09:51 AM

- - - - -
Just to clarify, is that the end of THIS month?
If that doesn't happen, will you exchange my dinars at that rate instead? :o) Pleeeease.

-- July 15, 2006 3:11 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Miss Dinar:
I mean no disrespect here... but can I purchase your perceived dinar valution time table in a bottle or does it come in powder form?

-- July 15, 2006 3:40 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

MissDinar.. I have found this message board to be the most helpful and up to date with information concerning dinar trading. The people here are honest optomistic buyers and analyzers of this topic. Your credibly will go up 1000% (along with your dinars) if you can share a source for your information. We've all heard the town crier singing those phrases before.. please just back up your story. Thanks and good luck on your dinars!!

-- July 15, 2006 6:02 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Well..."Ah reckin whut we have here is a failure to communicate"...remember that movie?

Seriously, the conundrum we're pondering may not have an answer at this time because we simply don't have enough facts. Surely, with all the discussion on this and other forums, some bright soul would have been able to solve the Dinar puzzle.

Hopefully, in my opinion, it will happen in the near future and we can take the advice given by Carl and look into trusts and other devices to handle our increased stash. Just in case....I'm drafting an Offshore Asset Protection Trust.

-- July 15, 2006 8:09 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Carls post on the Iran situation really got me thinking in that direction.

I have'nt got it all together in my head yet, (dont worry I'll come up with something clever eventually)

One thing for sure though, seing the Hezbolla /Israel/Lebanon war taking place on front row TV brings his point home with reality, and we are looking at a cataclysmic event that will play out, maybe now maybe in the fall of 07.

There will be bigger things to come in the Middle East before everything is said and done.

The world can sense the upcoming battle, and is juggling for best preposition, Saudi Arabia did an un-presedented statement, saying Hezbolla was irresponsible doing it's move on Israel.

The conflict has been going on for years after years, but you may have noticed, that for the first time in the Palestine Israel conflict, in almost any official statement, Iran is pointed out as the instigator.

That fact is highlighted now. In the past this fact was mentioned on page twelve.

Whatever the upcoming conflict will do, it will involve Iran as the first target and Syria as the secondary.

Probably a simultaneous strike.

This time around, I do not believe it will be a US only operation, and Israel will not be asked to sit on the sideline, US doing the war for them, in order to not stirr up "Arabian feelings".

This will be the decisive battle, and Israel will be a full participant, and any pretense will be set aside.

I do believe that in the Arab world, they will see the writing on the wall, and they have a clear perspective of who's got the power and who will be involved.

Any involvment will bring destruction, and the line will pretty much be Iran and it's allies, might it be Syria, Hezbolla or Sadr.

You will always find uneducated youths screaming most anywhere, but Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi, Kuwait, Dubai and the other heavyweights will stay out. They know better, and in their heart, they don't mind see the Iranian Mullas go.

We have surrounded Iran now, except for north, Russia, where Bush is sitting and talking with Putin right now.

Iran is going nuclear,and they will use it on us or Israel. This is a timerace.

I do sincerely hope though that when the showdown comes, it's not just the Clinton doctrine of shooting a couple of cruise missiles, and hope they learned a lesson, but the end result must involve a real target of a complete removal of the Iranian regime.

That brings me to another very interesting question, how much is the Iranian Dinar? Is it called Dinars in Iran?

If (when) a showdown comes, their currency will take a nosedive.

This conflict will deeply affect the whole region, oil will go high, and this will be for the Iraqis Dinars benefit.

You sneese and the oil will go higher, Lebanon, and Israel is not oilproducing countries, they end up shooting, and sure enough, the oilcompanies ended up with a highest ever in oilprices.

Hope the Iraq Dinar pays out soon, I need to invest in oilstocks.

-- July 15, 2006 9:40 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Okie,

Well, count the winnings before you start setting something up.

I was involved in a mining project years back, and set everything up, before the deal was done. There was long negotiations, and the deal fell through.

I would wait until you have the bird in your hand, otherwise it's waisted time, and money.

You might want to check in on the set up's they have in Nevada.

It's the only state where the board memebers of a company have identity protection per the state constitution.

In my case, I had set up two companies, one that had the finances, and the production company, that had all their assets heavily in debt to the company with the finances.

The basic set up may not apply in your case, but the idea is that if you have money, anyone with a wiplash or tire tracks on their foot, will sue you for everything you have.

By having everything in a company that is borderline bankrupt, and have all their assets verifyable filed in the courthouse owed to someone else, the lawyer suing wont even touch the case, because there is nothing for him to take.

In my case this was a business deal set up with a producing company, but I'm sure the basic set up, maybe in another form, would be more suitable for a single person, or a family, that has gotten into the greens.

I was not into that particular scene, at the time, but I do remember, seing a lot of options with offshore accounts.

The charm with Nevada State company board identity protection is that you can more or less "dissapear" as a rich man.

As you know, the board, has the real power in a company, and the CEO, does what the board tells him to do.

There is even set ups, where you can hire a CEO, in Nevada. I visited one of those companies. You will have an office, with a CEO, and your name plate, on the office, and at the entrance.

It's easy switchable, nameplates, and one CEO can be a CEO for about 150 companies. There are long corridors of offices, and in each one of them sits a "hired CEO". This might sound very weird, but it's a completely legal and very much used system of asset protection.

Most every Hollywood celebrity have their own Nevada Corporation. Nevada's laws are especially good for individuals and smaller to medium size companies.

Bigger companies with 50 or more employees, are better off registring their company in other states.

If the train comes in for you, you might want to take a trip to Nevada and go through a couple of those companies and see what they have to offer in terms of set ups, now remember this is not an investment, it is a legal set up that you do , before you invest.

-- July 15, 2006 10:06 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

I have Dinar value time tables, for sale.

All you have to do is buy 250 of those, store them in your garage, and sell them to next person in line.

Just think of the titles you're getting.

Level one, Field Manager.
Level two, Senior Field Manager.
Level three, Area Manager.
Level four, Management Director.
Level five, Senior Executive Manager.
Level six. You will be canonized and Holy.

-- July 15, 2006 10:25 PM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

MissDinar....what information does your "source within the ISX" have that makes him say that the Dinar will not zero lop and open up between .68 and $1.12? I hope you are not Taxmama with an alias....LOL.
I think we are interested in hearing what specific information your source has and why he thinks that way?

-- July 16, 2006 12:51 AM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

I was doing a bit of background reading, looking for info on the Afgan currency, when I happened upon this information on another forum. I know most of the readers here are the other side of the pond (I'm from the U.K.) but I thought this was worth sharing all the same:

http://www.investorsiraq.com/iraqi-dinar/19246-any-uk-banks-trading-new-iraqi.html

If the information is correct, there are currently two U.K. banks (Natwest and Royal Bank of Scotland) that currently both supply and allow you to deposit NIDs in a U.K. Account.

The supply is at £393/million, which is lower than any that I have seen anywhere. Prices on Ebay are typically £450/million or more.

To deposit NIDs in an account will cost you 2.65% of your stash.

Personally, I would feel one whole lot better about losing 2.65%, especially if bought at these rates, rather than deposit my money in Warka.

Can you open an account from the outside the country? No idea, but you can do your own research about that.

Does the Dinar account pay interest? Again not sure on that. The information on the forum is very brief, but a couple of people verify that they have bought dinars this way.

-- July 16, 2006 1:18 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

"Ah recin whut we have here is a failure to communicate"

Timeless line.....

Miss Dinar,

Please , the old movie line holds true...

There are two individuals, that I suspect is one and the same, Taxmama and Miss Dinar.

Both are doing the same number, say a one or two sentence statement, that is of very high importance, claim "insider info".

Then gone.

Then a couple of weeks later, back, saying a one liner again and then gone.

Every time it happens, a long line of questions are asked by almost the whole board, but the originator is always gone.

When the board have moved on to another subject,... pop, ...back with another one line statement of cruicial importance, and then gone.

Taxmama and MissDinar have the same style, ........

"Ah recin whut we have here is a failure to communicate"

Carls axiom holds true, we always do things for a reason.

Miss Dinar and Taxmama, both your comments here, have ingrediences of rushing out and buy Iraq Dinars.

I suspect you have alternative reasons, why wont you stay and discuss the matter , reveal the sources, why is your standpoint so darn completely opposite to most of us that have analyzed the situation almost to death.

If you scroll back, you will see references after references to web site after website, but you just trow a one liner out, that claims the opposite, and claim secret sources.

You are telling us what we want to hear, but we are not eight year olds here, and doing it that way is not an easy sell.

Probably the best would be to just communicate more, because "Ah recin whut we got here......

-- July 16, 2006 1:44 AM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Again from another forum, someone had a bit of a panic attack, when they received what looked to be a genuine 10 dinar note. Photos below...

http://www.investorsiraq.com/attachments/iraqi-dinar/3092-10-dinar-note-dinars-002.jpg?d=1152327880
http://www.investorsiraq.com/attachments/iraqi-dinar/3093-10-dinar-note-dinars-003.jpg?d=1152327887

...Turns out this was just a 1969 swiss dinar. Just goes to show how similar the design is to the current NID.

To my mind, if a new currency is printed, with lower denominations, the design will need to be modified a bit to prevent a new 10 dinar note from being mistaken for an old swiss dinar note.

-- July 16, 2006 1:54 AM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Bob and Roger...

I hadn't made the Taxmama / MissDinar connection, but I think you are on to something there...

Both posting short, punchy statements with incredibly optimistic content, but nothing to back it up and then not responding to any questions.

To me that just spells "I sell dinar. This should hike up my sales a bit"

-- July 16, 2006 2:04 AM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

Nellie B- Investor.....precisely my point..she will not respond to these questions...her Dinar sales will spike then plateau off......then she will be back with some wonderful "news", thus the cycle will continue.

-- July 16, 2006 2:51 AM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Today I found a post on another forum from someone much more knowledgable than myself, but who has come to the same conclusions about a revalue. This is the best argued post I have found to date for why a huge revalue in the order of 1 dinar = 68c can't and wont happen:

(I realise it was written in Aug 2005, but I still think the content is entirely relevant today)

- - - - -
Quote:

A discussion about decreasing wages in Iraq. The “purchasing power” argument.
What HUGE drop in wages are you talking about????
Here’s a little background on Iraqi income.
Back around 1980, Iraq was considered one of the most advanced societies in the Arab world, even with that they had an average income of only about $3000 dollars a year. Iraq then went to war with Iran and that’s when their economy went in the crapper, and along with the help of the first gulf war the average income was down to about $800 dollars a year prior to the invasion 2002/2003. Latest estimates I’ve seen it’s currently about $1000 dollars a year. So that’s up a little from pre-war and yes… that’s a significant decrease from 1980 (26 years ago), but it’s no where near the .31 to .00068 decrease that you are portraying it to be.
When did Iraqis ever have this “purchasing power” that everyone speaks of????

You seem to trying to say that just because the exchange rate was higher, they made more money.
I’ve done the research… Iraqis have never made much money. The fact is that in 1980 the average Iraqi made the equivalence of 3000 US dollars a year. That is a fact. I don’t know what the exchange rate was in 1980 and I really don’t care. If it was 3:1, three dinars for every dollar, then the average Iraqi made 1000 dinar a year. If the exchange rate was .33 dinar for 1 dollar then the average Iraqi made about 9000 dinar a year. Just like now the Average Iraqi makes the equivalence of 1000 US dollars a year. That’s 1,475,000 dinars a year. Is there anyone here that really believes that they will revalue to 1:1 and suddenly the average Iraqi will start making 1.5 million dollars a year… or even .33:1, that would be .5 million dollars a year...
Anyone???

The “Iraq should be equal to Kuwait” argument.
Dinars in circulation.
Iraq.....9,000,000,000,000
Kuwait..........500,000,000

So Iraq has 18 thousand times more Dinar in circulation.

How about M2, that takes care of the “Kuwait is electronic” argument.
Iraq........15,000,000,000,000
Kuwait..........10,000,000,000

That’s 1 thousand five hundred times more M2.

So if you take Kuwait’s 3.10 exchange rate and divide it by 1500... That’s .00206

The “they have to walk around with wheelbarrows full of money” argument.
25K Dinar = $17
10K Dinar = $6.8
5K Dinar = $3.4
1K Dinar = $0.68
500 Dinar = $0.34
Seems to me that they have bills out that are pretty much equal to the bills that we carry around every day. I’m not sure why we keep hearing that their money is worthless.
They’ll revalue at 1:1, but they would never print new currency.
I always hear the argument that they wont issue new currency because of the cost. If they revalue to 1:1 they have to print all new currency anyway.

“Iraq has all that Oil and Natural Gas.”
For anyone that thinks that the Iraqi Dinar is going to revalue anywhere near 1:1, please tell me of another country that has 9 trillion units of currency in circulation and has a value near 1:1. It should be very easy to find. Google the name of any country along with currency and M1 and you should get the figure. Please don’t tell me that Iraq is different because of all the oil. None of the other big oil producers come close to a 1:1 value with the same amount of currency. Iraq has about a 50 billion dollar GDP, even if they get up to full throttle, double, triple, even quadruple their GDP to 200 billion, that would still leave them 60X short of the US GDP of 12 trillion. If we based it just on GDP, and give them the quadrupled figure of 200 billion, that would mean a value of .016. But that doesn’t take into account the fact that they have 9 or 10 times more currency in circulation than the US. That reduces it to .0016. How can you possibly ignore those numbers. It’s a known fact that they don’t have the reserves to revalue, it should also be pretty obvious that even with all that oil, they still don’t have any way to revalue anywhere near 1:1.

“Their companies will be bought up for penuts” argument.
This has been talked about in conjunction with a revalue of the currency. The way I see it, if a company in Iraq making widgets is worth 10 billion dinar or 10 million dollars prior to a 1:1 revalue, that company is still only worth 10 million dollars after a revalue. The change would be that instead of being worth 10 billion dinar, they’re now worth 10 million dinar.
Widgets prices/profits didn’t go up 1000 times.
This goes back to the Pepsi salesman thought. His salary cannot increase 1000 times, because they can’t increase the price of a Pepsi 1000 times.

Banks will somehow be worth more after a revalue.
Banks are just like any other company, they make money by providing a service/product. Banks take our money (deposits) and loan it out to others who pay interest on the loan. The money/reserves sitting in banks is not the banks money.
The logic that needs to be extracted is that there will be no large revalue of the dinar and that it’s not necessary to revalue to somehow save Iraqi companies from being bought out. A countries exchange rate has practically nothing to do with the value of a company.

More comparisons, this time… “Why Isn’t Iraq equal or better than Jordan”?
I’ve posted numbers and facts to explain this in the past, I’ll use the company/stocks example since we’ve been hashing that out.
Think of Iraq as a company, think of Jordan or any other country you’d like as a company also. Just like a company has a value, a country has a value (reserves/GDP). Companies go public and sell shares. Countries have units of currency.
Company A and Company B let’s say are both worth 1 million dollars.
Company A sells 10,000 shares at a price of $100 a share.
Company B sells 100,000 shares at a price of $10 a share.
A=$100 B=$10… heck A has to be worth more…. Wronge… they are the same because you have to take into account the number of shares.
It’s the same thing with a comparison between Iraq and any other country. You have to take more into account than just the end number of .00068 or .1.4.
Iraq is much more like company B in the example. They have 9 TRILLION units/shares floating around out there. I just did a quick search and as of July 2004 Jordan had about 3 Billion units/shares out there. So Iraq has 3000x more currency/shares.
Jordan exchange rate 1.4 divided by 3000 = .00046. Guess what… that’s less than Iraq at .00068.

The “It just has to be higher” argument.
Where does this belief that the numbers have to be the same come from??
It’s just a number… what difference does it make whether it’s a small number or a big number… it’s all relative. I’ll ask you, like others to explain Japan. They have an exchange rate of 100 yen to the dollar… how do they ever afford anything???
A better example… ITALY!!! Before they went to the Euro they used the Lira…
The exchange rate for the Lira was $1 = 1535 Lira or 1 Lira = $.00065…. that’s almost exactly what the Iraqi dinar is today. How did the country survive?? How did they have purchasing power?? How did they buy foreign goods?? Also… imagine this… they managed to convert over to the Euro (think GCC here) without having a massive revalue. Their companies didn’t get bought up by foreign investors. How did Italy do all of this????? Answer… it’s just a number… it doesn’t mean JACK!

http://www.investorsiraq.com/193253-post18.html
- - - - -
End of quote.

For the optimists here, that surely is going to demoralise some of you, at least some that have not already buried their head up to their ankles in sand. Myself, I'd rather live in reality, where I can make my own choices, based on the best information available.

Am I about to off-load all of my dinars? No.
I still see this 'gamble' as a good medium-term investment, that should pay off better than most in the next 1-5 years, as rebuilding and major international investments take place. I will seriously look at putting my investment in a U.K. bank though, to safeguard against what I consider to be an imminant zero lop and the inevitable redenomination of currency (new notes) that goes with that.

-- July 16, 2006 4:55 AM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Perhaps I missed something.. When and where did we learn that there were 9 trillion dinars in circulation?

I've been involved with trading commodities for a while now and currency trading is no different than trading Oranges. There can be a huge harvest, but if no one is willing to part with their oranges and the demand is present the value will go up. I'm imagining that the reason the US has stock piled so much Iraq currency isn't to pay off our debt, its to stabilize the currency. It will stop another foreign country, like China, from going in buying up all economic authority and in essence kick us out. That large percentage of currency that the US has is off the table for trading. Most investors aren't letting go of their dinars at the current excahange rate. So.. demand raises value. Correct me if I'm wrong. We can over analyze this over and over, it comes down to simple supply and demand.

-- July 16, 2006 9:52 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Taylor:
True in your post....
What elements of economics sets the demand for a country's currency and value...

Let me try to list some of them...if I miss some let me know

Efficient Governmental tax collecting programs to maintain Government and Security

Guidelines setup to protect the country's resources

Strict Protection of those guidelines in making sure they are followed

Internal Security Guidelines covering Police,Court,and correctional system

Rigid enforcement of those guidelines covering police,court and correctional

Functional Governmental Agencies at National, State and Local level all working under the same guidelines and banner

Banking System setup to control country's currency, Printing and distribution of such

Banking system recognized and operated under acceptable guidelines of the International Community

The Country's currency allowed to float on the free market currency exchange and move with the up and downs of the country's stability

The Country's Governmental structure to be strong,stable and secure

The Country's infrastructure to be in position to provide enough power, water, sanitation, medical, educational, services that will meet the needs and provide a quality of life for its citizens

Employment and Unemployment percentages to be within the guidelines expected of a strong secure government

Strong efficient Stock exchange to promote that country's businesses throughout their country and internationally

Active and robust export of that country's natural resources to promote a strong and healthy economy

Just using these guidelines and giving each category a max score of 3 for excellant 2 for average, 1 for fair and 0 for poor what would be your total score for Iraq...considering there are 14 criterior listed with a max of 42 points. Average would be 21 points anything below that fair to poor...

That should give each investor a idea of the present value of the dinar....and if it RV's... just what the value of the dinar would be on the international currency exchange ....with the present situation in Iraq

-- July 16, 2006 10:20 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Taylor......

Good point about the number of Dinars in actual circulation and the huge stockpile held by the US. I also think the US will use these Dinars for the purchase of oil over an extended period of time which will help stabilize Iraq and their economy.

-- July 16, 2006 11:36 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Carl...

As usual, you hit a homerun with your list of things to consider regarding the current and future value of the Dinar. Your last point, related to natural resources, was the basis for my initial purchase of Dinars.

I'm from farming country and after standing on the banks of the Euphrates river and looking at the good bottom land it had created, I visited the local Dinar dealer and made my first purchase. That was in July 2004 and as the positive news came in, I bought a lot more.

-- July 16, 2006 12:31 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Okie!
Iraq has so much to offer the world in terms of commerce...it is ashame that human prejudices and religious zeal tends to make the humanoid the most violent species on the face of this earth..
In order for mother earth to survive mankind, she may need to wipe the slate clean and start all over again...

-- July 16, 2006 12:42 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Nelly B,

OK, I understand exactly what your saying but still am confused on exactly what you conclusion is.

Even if we are not going to be millionairs... wouldn't a 40% to a possible 100% return be better than any other investment out there?, especially when the rise in oil prices are creating instability in World Stock Exchanges.

It still appears that the NID might turn out to be the best deal of the century...

Comments or rebuttals?

Regards,
Outlaw

P.S. I also believe Taxmama and MissDinar are one in the same!

-- July 16, 2006 1:32 PM ∞

---

Taxmama wrote:

Not so. I live in the Great Pacific Northwest. Where does MissDinar live?

I think we better hone in on two important dates coming up.
July 25 - el Meliki visits Bush in Washington.

July 26 - the World Bank has a meeting with the Central Bank of Iraq.

Dr. Qaddouri has repeatedly said, along with my dealer who has extensive contacts in Iraq, that when the peg happens, it will be sudden. There will be no big announcement that would cause a huge run on the Dinar. It will be an immediate event.

The next 2-3 weeks are quite critical, I believe.

I am not a dealer or a seller of any currency. I bought a large amount. I only post when I get what I consider accurate information (hasn't always been that way, I admit). My dealer has good communications with the economic community in Iraq. He keeps the investors informed. I have not been encouraged to purchase more Dinar based on the info I receive. I only use it to keep informed and sometimes pass along to others.

So, I ask again. Where does MissDinar reside? We are most decidedly not the same person.

-- July 16, 2006 2:19 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Carl…..

I can imagine, with your law enforcement background, you’ve seen the extremes of our “good, bad and ugly” nature. I hope we’re not faced with a total wipe out but a partial one when it comes to the human race. As we’ve evolved, this has been our history.

When we first came on the scene, only the strong survived. When Neanderthal man came forward they added a little bit of brainpower to their strength and survived. Cro-Magnon man appeared on the scene and was faster and smarter so the Neanderthal went bye bye from the planet.

So we evolved and are today even faster, smarter and with some added social skills. I believe the clash between the Islamic militants and the rest of the world will be decided in our favor and the militants will go bye bye from the planet just as the Neanderthal did.

There will be a lot of “weeping, wailing and gnashing of the teeth” but I really believe we’ll survive and prosper.

-- July 16, 2006 2:51 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Taxmama......

Thanks for the July 25 & 26 reminders. I also believe the RV announcement will be sudden and given by Maliki on Iraqi soil from Baghdad.

-- July 16, 2006 3:09 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Okie!
It turns my guts when I think of what is happening, and going to happen to the children and individuals who just wanted to live in peace on both sides...but I also know and understand the polite name the events of the future have been given..."WAR"

To the young un-initiated minds on both sides this means adventure...the chance to prove your macho...amano to amano....

In reality it means death has no favorites nor gives any exceptions...to any soul caught in the wrath of slaughter and destruction...age..sex..healthy..infirmed..crippled..all will feel the sting of war...
WAR is like a huge giant fire that starts to suck all of the air around it into the its inferno... it starts out small and then starts to consume anything and everything around or near it...all well laid plans for the good of humanity or a country are consumed by this fire..

If this battle continues and I believe it will.... simply because it is what Iran intended....and they are not going to allow the heat of WAR to die down...they had to get Israel to fight in order to carry out what they have told the world they believed.."ISRAEL NEEDS TO BE WIPED FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH"

Iran picked the fight...knowing that to get someone to fight... you must first create enough anger to cause the individual to respond back with their own strikes......the first blow from the assaulted is victory to the instigator....the instigator has already planned out their strategy...the assaulted party has to play catch up for a little while...it is the one who keeps the other off balance that usually wins the battle...

Look for some major devasting attacks on Israel....these could come from Iran or Syria...remember! the Iraqi General who stated WMD were taken to Syria...you may just know how true this is in the coming days...these attacks will be design for two reasons...#1 weaken Israel and shock the civilian population...#2 draw in America to defend Israel .....#3 then create several fronts...along the Iran/Iraq border....strikes on the USA bases from the interior by Sadr's Militia....break out your sleeper cells within the Iraqi military and Police and attempt to remove the existing PM and elected Officials...Start attacks throughout Iraq with the renagade police and military so that no one trust any part of authority within the existing government...Activate your sleeper cells inside the US and start strikes on major transportion facilities..airports...water...electric..trucking industry....communication facilities to black out banking transactions and fuel transports...this interrupts commerce...thus shutting down the US Economy...

Have I just gave you enough to think about what may be coming...?what is happening now in Lebanon and Gaza can leap overnight...when this happens the only way to control it is with a major strike restricting no type of warhead...
This is will be the first flight of nuclear war...the beginning to a different world as we know it today...

May the guardian angels for each of you who read this board,carry you and your love ones through these possible events to come...

-- July 16, 2006 3:37 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Outlaw wrote:

Nelly B,

OK, I understand exactly what your saying but still am confused on exactly what you conclusion is.

Even if we are not going to be millionairs... wouldn't a 40% to a possible 100% return be better than any other investment out there?, especially when the rise in oil prices are creating instability in World Stock Exchanges.

It still appears that the NID might turn out to be the best deal of the century...

Comments or rebuttals?

Regards,
Outlaw

P.S. I also believe Taxmama and MissDinar are one in the same!
- - - - -
Outlaw:
I think we're on the same page... my conclusions are that the dinar wont go up by a factor of 1000, 100, or even 10 overnight, but it will gradully climb in value (my thinking being 1-5 years before we see a 'decent' return - though I give no predictions to what that might be at this time) but yes, I think that rise would still represent a better return than most investments or simply keeping some money in a bank for the same amount of time.
The down side to this is there are also some pretty big risks and I don't see it as impossible to lose the whole investment (worst case scenario)

I see it as important to stay ahead of the game and be ready for any eventualities - especially a redenomination of currency (issue of new notes).

-- July 16, 2006 6:01 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Carl...

Very imaginitive posts. I hope you are not proved right on the middle east situation kicking off and where it could potentially end up.
On the up side, as long as you are around, I wont be seen as the pessimist here :o)

Just out of curiosity, if you were to determine a score out of 42, for Iraq's currency and value using your own system above, what would it be?

-- July 16, 2006 6:15 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Nelly:
The dictionary states
Pessimism... is to take the least favorable view or to expect the worst..
Pragmatical.. taking of or relating to a practical consequences of events,actions or beliefs

The events that I related to are practical sequence of events as to what a leader who wanted to create chaos or achieve a certain goal would practically have to do in order to achieve that goal. These are the events as I see them not as I would like for them to be...What clues do I have to give me that indication...

1. Iran started both incidents to incite Israel to respond in a military way...do you think they did this because they were bored and there was no football game on for the evening...so someone said...I know... lets piss off the Jews..?

2. Iran has stated Israel should be removed from the face of the earth

3. Iran has been goating the West and Israel for the past year

4. Iran has created a fabricated issue with the nuclear plants

5. Iran is in allance with Syria

6. Syria is the one who killed one of Lebanon's top Officials when he had them kicked out of Lebanon

7. The Iraqi General stated WMD went to Syria before the Iraqi invasion

8. Iran and Syria both support the terriorist groups of lebanon and Gaza

9. Syria has made a statement they will strike if attacked by Israel and they will not restrict any means of weapon or attack

10. Iran stated, Israel is in for a surprise of death and destruction that they have not considered...if they attack Syria

11. Iran is now utilizing their forces to assist the terrorist in Lebanon

12. Iran has transfered over 11,500 updated missles to the lebanon forces

13. The United States stated in the pass they would support and defend Israel if attacked

14. Iran and Syria consider the USA just as guilty as Israel because of our backing

15. Israel has given Syria 72 hours to release the Israeli soldiers or be attacked with max force

16. Iran attack Syria and you have attacked the Arab World

17. Sadr himself verbally and is presently having his clerics verbally attack and incite his milita to assist the lebanon terriorst, and start attacks on Iraqi Coalition Forces

18. Hezbalah stated we have only begun to the fight

19 Israel stated we are at "ALL OUT WAR"

20.First time since 1991 has Israel set up defense missles throughout all of their cities

21. All Iraeli National Defense Reservist have been activated

I could go on ...but have I made my point...

I have just made a simple observation of events that have occurred over the past 5 days...it is practical and possible that all of the above events given in my last post can occur during the following weeks..

If it does...the Iraqi dinar is going to be the value of Table Salt for quite sometime to come.

Pessimist or Pragnatist...?

7.

-- July 16, 2006 8:44 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Carl,

War is slaughter , mayhem and wholesale massacre.

No one with it's sane mind wants it.

But we're not dealing with individuals that could, in any social scale of evaluation be called sane.

Perhaps it's actually a good idea to have this war done and over with.

It will come soner or later, the Israel Hezbolla conflict is not the mainreasons for this war, it's an orcestrated distraction from Iran.

If I were an Israeli warplanner, I would bomb both the Iranian and Syrian embassy in Beirut to dust and pieces.

Afterall, it is a legitimit target for Israel, they are the backers and financers of Hezbolla.

It will in this conflict immediately turn the headlight from any pretence that this is a Hezbolla/ Israeli conflict and put the Iran, Syria relationship straight in the crosshairs.

The Israelis know this, but there might be a lot more behind the scenes that is not in the open yet.

What Bush and Putin is saying behind closed doors is ofcourse not a known thing, but the fact that Iran borders to Russia is nothing of a secret.

Perhaps its time, but then again,perhaps it's not time yet for the war, and Israel will lay back after a couple of weeks of pounding on the Hezbollas.

Russia and China seems to be a bit wishy washy on the Iran deal, Europe, and FN seems (as usual) to be somewhat softer too, and wants about 583 not enforceable resolutions , and endless debate, with the hope of a diplomatic solution.

Good luck, like asking Hitler to hold a promise.

Any resolution, that is put forward, will not be respected, any promise will not be held, any contract will not be honored, any promise of withdrawal will not happen, any promise of de arming is a pipedream, any cease fire will be broken.

Totalitarian fachist states don't hold such things as promises, contracts and respect in high value.

To negotiate, is for them just another means of winning time for development of another hidden purpose.

So in my judgement, it's a bad thing with war, it's like a big earthquake in California, but you know it's going to happen , like it or not.

I predict that when it happens, it will be a disruption to the whole region, but I'm pretty sure , quite a few Arabian countries can see the writing on the wall, and will try to stay out of it.

Apart from screaming youths, in Djakarta and Cairo, I do strongly believe that the coming conflict will be limited to Israel, Lebanon, Syria , Iran, USA and then it's a matter of how many allies US can get onboard this time.

The Dinar, or any currency from that region will be unstable during the conflict, but if the infrastructure is left untouched, in the non participating oilproducing countries, I do predict a quick rebound after the conflict.

Ofcourse, oilprices will rise, any reason and they will. In this conflict though, Iran IS an oilproducing country and the oilprices will have a legitimate reason to rise.

(after it's legitimate rise, they will ofcourse rise three times more, just for profit, right now, there is plenty of oilreserve all around the world, and by all standards the oilprices should go down, but as two non oilproducing countries are at war right now, they just have to go up for good measure)

Taxmama,
Thankyou for clarifying who you are and that you gave a little bit about yourself. You're communicating now, thats better, keep it up. Say Hi to Sam, he knows me.

-- July 16, 2006 11:55 PM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

Taxmama......thanks for your explanation....does your source know if they are going to zero lop the currency prior to the peg or not?

-- July 17, 2006 12:06 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Good afternoon from Iraq.

Buried on the MSNBC web site half way through the "41 Killed" article was this:

"Also Monday, U.S. Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez arrived in the Iraqi capital for meetings with Iraqi officials. President Bush promised to send more Cabinet officials to Baghdad to help the new government jump-start the economy, a key step toward restoring stability."

Interesting, more food for thought. The tea leaves are still settling.

One other quick comment. Several have said that Iraq's economy could never withstand raising the value of the dinar, but they always compare 1 dollar to 1 NID. So 7 Trillion NID automatically become 7 Trillion Dollars. Even at the most quoted figure of 9 Trillion in circulation (which I can find NO record of), if it revalued to only $0.01, this would only be worth 90 Billion Dollars. Not much for the inherent value of Iraq in my opinion. If you bought your NID at and average of $700 per million, and it revalued to $0.01, it would now be worth $10,000.00 or a percentage increase of 1428%. Not a bad investment, and now Iraq's money is worth 90 Billion instead of only 7. Well under the trillions that have been discussed.

-- July 17, 2006 7:01 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

One other comment to go with above. If Iraq is averaging 2.4 million barrels of oil per day at approximately $75.00 per barrel that makes them $65.7 Billion per year. All owned by the government at this point. Not to mention all the money that the rest of the world has pumped (pardon the pun) into them, and the vast amounts still due from the donar nations.

-- July 17, 2006 7:15 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

And once again:

14 July 2006 (Turkish Daily News) -- Only 10 percent of Iraq has been explored for oil and 60 percent of proven reserves are in undeveloped fields, the International Energy Agency (IEA) said in a report...

-- July 17, 2006 8:11 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Lance:
The truth is Iraq does not know how much they are averaging a day in oil production...

The Reason....they do not have any meters on their oil wells or facilities as all of the production is estimated...
Why???
The meters were removed when Saddam was in power so he could say how much oil he was producing and no one could rebute him...this was an excellent way to cheat the international community on the oil for food program...he was in control of just how much was "officially" pumped and the numbers given to the UN...
The present Iraqi Oil Ministry has chosen to maintain that system...
Why??
Well! I think you can fiqure that out for yourself...

-- July 17, 2006 9:29 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

The one last hope was...

The Arab Leaque of Nations would step in curtail Iran and Syria with behind the scene moves...allowing Iran and Syria to recieve their macho imagine, yet backing off of the tension raising moves...

This morning the Arab Leaque of Nations stated...Israels attacks were overboard, excessive and it seemed that Israel had been given free rein by the international community to do as they will..
The Moderate Arab Nations were now becoming concern and uneasy with the present Israeli action..

Break that down to this...
The Moderate Arabs know that hezbalah and hamas are to blame...
They have been critical of them but not saying too much...now they are feeling the pressure of the surrounding radical arabs....
The leaque has recognize they have weak shifting sand underneath their feet if Iran and Syria are successful in promoting this conflict under the "Attack of all Arab Banner"
This is why they have come on in the response to distance their selfs from the USA and Israel position...
My Thoughts...
The Arab Leaque of Nations recognize their entire economic region is in danger of being destroyed in a expanding campaign...they will attempt to stop it behind the scenes...however...if they fail they "WILL JOIN THE OTHER ARAB NATIONS AGAINST THE USA AND ISRAEL" They have no other choice in order for their regimes to survive...

-- July 17, 2006 9:40 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Roger!
Is correct about the present conflict....fight them now or fight them later...delay will only give Iran more time to create their nuclear weapons...its time to stop the instigators of war...the entire region will be better off at the end of the conflict...of course assuming that our side wins...but like any ride on a thrashing bull... no one knows if the rider can stay for 8 seconds..

-- July 17, 2006 9:45 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Hi all...

Some of you are still building castles in the sky while accusing those of us who don't spend our time with our heads in the clouds trying to make sense of the fluffy shapes that we are burying our heads in the sand I see..

Carl;

I looked EVERYWHERE for confirmation of this point:

15. Israel has given Syria 72 hours to release the Israeli soldiers or be attacked with max force

Where did you see that?

Sara.

-- July 17, 2006 10:18 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

This is good news.. :)

Sara.

===

Iraq and U.S. sign commercial agreement
July 17, 2006

BAGHDAD, Iraq --Iraq and the United States signed a commercial cooperation agreement Monday that officials hope will help this country move into a free market after decades of wars, sanctions and state control.

"Concerning the agreement that we signed today, it is the result of long discussions and follows mutual agreements between Iraq and the United States," al-Sudani told reporters.

He said that the principles of the agreement are based on improving the Iraqi economy after it was destroyed by war.

"We will start a new chapter in the cooperation between the United States and Iraq," Gutierrez said. "This will entail cooperation in the economic field and promoting investments in key areas of the country in sharing technology and other forms of capacity building."

"It will be a unique opportunity to enable the Iraqi people to move from a centralized system of economic development to one where individuals can apply their skills and their talent and their energy to develop a better life for themselves, obviously for their families and for their country," he added.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/17/AR2006071700143.html

-- July 17, 2006 10:19 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Sara:
The Drudgereport.com ....they posted the 72 hours yesterday morning or Sat Night

-- July 17, 2006 10:25 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Lance....

Thanks for posting the value gain of the Dinar at $.01 RV. Kinda puts it in perspective...doesn't it? Any news to report on the current street value of the Dinar?

-- July 17, 2006 11:45 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Thanks, Carl. :)

I checked the site and tried the archives, too. There is nothing on that site saying that now - though they haven't put yesterday's headline news into the archive, so maybe it will turn up there. However, if it had been a real PUBLIC ultimatum, you would think it would be all over the media.

Hopefully that means they are not in an escalation phase, just trading insults and rhetoric. I'm just trying to keep my feet firmly on the ground and not play chicken little when one person says something, like the zero lop folks have done. :)

Hopefully we will know more in a while.

I still hope they are sick enough of war to overcome this with diplomacy now and not end up dragging the entire region into combat. Even if the Iranians AIM to do that, with the right diplomacy and moves, the Iranian plans CAN be thwarted because they don't hold all the cards in the deck.

Sara.

-- July 17, 2006 12:01 PM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

Answer to Bob:

My source said No zero lop.

Not a lot of confidence in Finance Minister. Used to own a jewelry store, I heard.

-- July 17, 2006 12:10 PM ∞

---

Techy wrote:

Taxmama,

Would appreciate it if you could enlighten us on your source or where you gather this positive information from.

-- July 17, 2006 12:53 PM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

Source is the dealer from whom I have purchased my Dinar. They put on a conference call with leading middle east economist Dr. Qais Qaddouri each week.

It is always quite informative. The Dr. is an Iraqi and is usually in Iraq at the time of the call. The call is generated from the dealers offices here in the U.S.

-- July 17, 2006 1:11 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Taxmamma!
Just remember....Barnum Bailey said there is one born every second...People do not do anything without a reason....the trick ...what is the reason...or motivation behind either the action or information...
Usually it is the one or ones who have the most to gain that releases or screens the information...it is usually design to either induce someone to do something or not do something...

We already know for a fact your source was full of shit one time....

Again....Barnum Bailey said.....

-- July 17, 2006 1:43 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Thank God for cooler heads who can see reason and find diplomatic compromise to create a peaceful resolution!
I pray they carry through on both sides..

Sara.

===

Israel sets cease-fire terms
17/07/2006 17:27 - (SA)

Beirut - Diplomatic efforts to end Israeli-Hezbollah fighting gained traction on Monday, with Israeli officials saying the country would agree to halt fighting if its two captured soldiers were returned and Islamic guerrillas withdrew from the border.

Publicly, the officials continued to insist their goal was to dismantle Hezbollah.

But senior aides to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert office said he told his Italian counterpart, Romano Prodi, that Israel would accept cease-fire terms of Hezbollah releasing the Israeli soldiers and withdrawing from the border.

On Sunday, Lebanese officials said that Israel had sent the terms of a possible cease-fire through Italian mediators.

The terms were the release of the two captured soldiers, and a Hezbollah pullback to roughly 30km from the Israeli-Lebanese border.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Middle_East/0,,2-10-2075_1969277,00.html

-- July 17, 2006 2:10 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

I don't know Carl.. I don't think that Taxmoma's source is completely full of Crap. In the posting a while back when there was a prediction that there would be a 45% increase on a certain day, things did happen. It wasn't the 45% increase that we would hope but trading amounts decreased, the next day they announced that they would not be printing anymore Dinars, they also stated that the dinar was stable, 2 days after they announced the zero lop. Perhaps they may have been wrong on their specifics, but the overall timeline on events about to occur are pretty much right on the money. I hope you're right taxmomma. Good luck on your dinars!

-- July 17, 2006 2:28 PM ∞

---

Terri wrote:

Taxmomma -- what value does your source (or range) say the dinar will peg at...?

-- July 17, 2006 2:46 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

What exact position is this Dr Qais Quaddori in.??

The ammount of people with a Dr degree in Economics are staggering.

If Dr Quais is in a position where he actually have access to the inner workings of the Central Bank, it would be a plus.

If this Dr Quais is another prognosticator, well the world is full of them.

There is a lot of universiy people with Dr degrees, that are sales managers in Wal Mart.

Judging from the track, it seems that Dr Quais, is close enough to know that SOMETHING will happen, but not close enough to tell exactly WHAT will happen.

I'm sure Dr Qais is getting paid on one way or the other to prognosticate the future.

If you pay a Doctor, to stand up on TV,and say how good this Vaginal Yeast Infectin pill is, does'nt mean he's closest buddy is the manager in a medical lab, on the verge of a medical breakthrough.

Thankyou Taxmama, I would treat this source, as a person with a flair of knowledge of the current development, but I wouldn't bet my life on him.

By all means, keep reporting what he comes up with, but please, dont advertise it as "breaking news".

Dr Qais will fit in to the picture in one way or the other, but as stated above, he has already proven to be full of shit once.....get my drift.

You know the old saying, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

-- July 17, 2006 3:30 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Ok Your dealing with Dr Dinar, they have this calls, you do a survey, and it's free, or you pay about 12 bucks and you're in on one of those calls. I get that promotion on my screen pretty often.

There is a reason for everything, there is a reason a company that sells Dinars want you to talk with an "expert", telling you great news.

Cool down Taxmama, this was too simple.

-- July 17, 2006 3:38 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Carl & Roger.....

This Dr. Qais has been quoted on other forums and received a "no-go" about like he's getting here.

Just remember...."buyer beware!"

-- July 17, 2006 3:49 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

ok.. I just got done listening to a half hour of Dr. Qais on http://www.freedinar.com/audio.asp in his latest report. Some of his predictions make sense. Its worth listening to. He states that the currency re-val will not happen overnight. It will occurr in small steps over time. For example now 1477/ dollar, then 1000/dollar then 500, 250 ect..

I didn't catch what some viewers stated as a definate reval date. He actually advises to stay away from people like this. If you have a half hour to blow.. let me know your thoughts...

-- July 17, 2006 5:33 PM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

The other Dr. Quddouri is not the same as this one. This is Dr. Qais Quddouri.
That's already been established in the past two weeks.

This company selling the Dinar is an internationally respected firm that trades curriences all over the world and also in the U.S. They are very big and very respected.

Dr. Quddouri has a brother-in-law on the CBI committee sometimes has deeper info.

The call carries with it no fee, no charge, no survey.

-- July 17, 2006 5:36 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Taylor's last post contains the perspective we need to have in mind when speaking about the re-evaluation of the DINAR.
"He states that the currency re-val will not happen overnight. It will occurr in small steps over time. For example now 1477/ dollar, then 1000/dollar then 500, 250 ect.."

Incremntal Determinism should be our mantra. Investors big and small stand to profit. Our profit will come prudence and patience are our code of conduct.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 17, 2006 5:51 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Taxmama said.....

"This company selling the Dinar is an internationally respected firm that trades curriences all over the world and also in the U.S. They are very big and very respected."

_________________________________

Well gawlee goober....if I knew whut thar name wuz I might be tempted to buy some of that thar deenaar from em.

-- July 17, 2006 6:00 PM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

As I have not seen any other chat rooms and chatters themselves mention names of Dinar suppliers, I don't think it's my position to do this. I am just one customer among many thousands.

I was only trying to give some validation for my source of information.

Take it or leave it.

-- July 17, 2006 7:10 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Why not say the name of the companies you have bought from, why should that be a secret.

I bought my car from Mercedes, I bought my truck from Freightliner, My boat is the brand Morgan, and my jeans is Wrangler. I smoke Backwoods cigars, and I fuel at Flying-J,I bought Dinars from 1. the Dinar Group, and 2. eDinar.

The first company took five weeks to get my Dinars, and the second company was too expensive, so Taxmama, where are you buying, and what is the deal with that company, would you recomend it?

-- July 17, 2006 7:34 PM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

If there is one thing I've learned from this "motley crew" of chatters is that no matter what someone posts on here, there are going to be one or many others who are going to attack that information. It doesn't have to do with whatever I may contribute, but with just about everyone else here.

Roger, I am sure there are others who are going to naysay your Mercedes, Freightliner, Morgan, Wranglers, etc etc etc, because they really don't have a life and get their kicks out of this sort of activity.
So, I'm not going to name my source because it wouldn't matter if I got my Dinar directly from el Maliki himself, I'd get trashed for days.

No, I'm not being thin-skinned, just getting tired of a small group of people who feel negative is their middle name and are darned proud of it.

-- July 17, 2006 7:50 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

I also:
Bought from soldiers in Iraq and SafeDinar

-- July 17, 2006 7:52 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Let me see...

I bought a bunch from a local Dinar dealer in Ramadi. Bought some more from friends who thought it was not a good investment. Bought a bunch from Al-Warka Bank in Baghdad.

I feel so much better now that I've disclosed my sources....what a relief!!!

Aw com'on Mamma....admit that your "International Company" really operates out of a closet somewhere in Arizona......

-- July 17, 2006 8:15 PM ∞

---

TM wrote:

Roger and team, I have been a lurker for some time and like you hope this train leaves the station. I do not consider myself any more educated than anybody else and appreciate all of the info, both good and bad. We must realize that the end result will happen regardless of what we want. I must ask though why Roger made the reference to sales managers at Wal-Mart? I can tell you that I know several of these folks and have been with them for 19 years. Whatever you hear in the press or feel personally about our company is of course fine. But I for one am fatigued at the constant criticism directed our way. I realize that by posting this I am opening myself up to all kinds of comments, but if I believe in something I stand behind it, just like the Dinar.

I will also say I appreciate all of the positive comments for our troops. I am a vet and come from a long line of servicemen. It is not only important that we support them now, but remember them when they come home, and 20 years from now.

-- July 17, 2006 8:18 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

TM and Taxmama,

I guess before you entered the room you didn't see the sign... "Beware of the Bubba's"

Take it all with a grain of salt... and a shot of Jack!

Outlaw

-- July 17, 2006 8:52 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

TM if that is Taxmama,

Read my post again.

I dont know if in particular your Dr, was a salesperson in WalMart.

It's so darn hard to get you to talk, lately you have loosen up, but info comes in bits and pieces.

Ok lately, AFTER my posting you tell me next piece of info, that he's got a brother in law on the Central Bank comitte, fine.

THEN we're all a navel looking inward looking group, that ask you where you bought your Dinars, but you keep coming back and state that it's inappropriate, or some other social respactable thing to not tell, and you because of this or that rather keep that a secret.

Taxmama, it's like pulling a molar, it's like someone have to bind you with rope into a chair, and by force pull the old wisdom tooth out of you.

One very classical way to control or keep interest in oneself is to keep others ignorant. Give just enough that questions are stirred up, that some kind of reaction will take place, based on ones own importance, with the "secret insider info" one is sitting on.

Taxmama, you should know that your first posting to this blog was a pretty panic thing, stuff that should happen, and you communicated in one two perhaps three sentences that was all statements as facts.

If you think it was an insult that there are university degree Dr's that work in WalMart, because they dont have jobs in the field thay are educated in, that should be a compliment to WalMart, better have a low paying job than nothing.

To me it looks like your reading into this that "working in WalMart is an activity for lesser beings."

You know Taxmama, the reason you have been defending yourself here is not because were a bunch of nitwits, in my opinion you did it to yourself.

Now tell me, what degree on the Richterscale would the earthquake hit if you say where you bought you Dinars.

To what degree of shame and embarrasment would you, and your family endure seven generations from now, if you say where you bought your Dinars.

I assume the selling company have advertismets, and want to sell more. Did you sign a non disclosure contract with the company to not disclose your "source of Dinars".

I just in my frickin mind can't see you attitude here.
Taxmama if you.........ah, I dont bother no more. Taxmama, its ok, you can HAVE your secret. Keep it. It's all yours.

-- July 17, 2006 9:15 PM ∞

---

TM wrote:

Outlaw, I understand. I can take it and have for several years. Lke I said, i know I opened myself up, but you have to be able to defend that you believe in. As for salt, I have used that in several wounds to close and protect. Hurts like He**. Got the Jack part down. I want to keep this board on topic and do not mean to detract. I love all of the info on here and wish i could contribute more. But you folks have it covered and my life only allows me to check once in awhile. So I say to all of you, Godspeed and good luck Sir.
TM

-- July 17, 2006 9:23 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

I rest my case!

Outlaw

-- July 17, 2006 9:25 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

TM... See ya at the Pig Roast Bud.

Oh, by the way... Walmart is the only place I shop!

Outlaw

-- July 17, 2006 9:34 PM ∞

---

Terry wrote:

Ok, I see in hindsight that TM might not have been the best ID here. LOL, my name is Terry and I live in Arkansas. Typical male just trying to make sense out of life and raise my daughter with the right virtues. I am most certainly not Taxmamma. Check the IP if you wish. I am the one who works for WM and am damn proud of that fact. I meant no harm on the board, just wanted to understand. I am sorry Taxmamma for the further scrutiny you have had at my hand.

-- July 17, 2006 9:55 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Terry!
I don't believe Roger mean anything personally toward you...I am sure he doesn't have a clue who you are, what position you hold at Walmart, where you live in Arkansas or for that matter really care...It is a fiqure of speech in which walmart is used in expressing an attitude.... Walmart's Upper Level Corporate Management has earned that reputation......with their low clerk wages and part time hours they use to circumvent paying benefits to their employees..Now that is a fact...

The issue is not walmart or you....usually if someone gives information on the board they will give the source if asked...if it does not violate someones code of oath...or a official disclosure violation...

I believe it started with Tax Mamma's source in which she apparently has total trust in...that is fine with me and I am sure with everybody else...sources do several things...give valid information...give unverified bogus information...give hearsay information...give fabricated information deliberately...and most of the time the information is extremely hard to distinquish from valid to fabricated.....just because someone told me its true and I believe it is true...then pass it on as the truth...doesn't make it true...Now! thats a fact!

-- July 17, 2006 10:14 PM ∞

---

Terry wrote:

Carl, I agree with you totally. Fact is fact and your facts on my company is wrong or based on wrong facts. I can understand now how wrong facts can distort the truth. I will keep my post in the future on subject and do not take anything personally. I am comfortable with myself and my place in life.
Thanks
Terry

-- July 17, 2006 10:25 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Carl,

You wrote:

Lance:
The truth is Iraq does not know how much they are averaging a day in oil production...

The Reason....they do not have any meters on their oil wells or facilities as all of the production is estimated...
Why???
The meters were removed when Saddam was in power so he could say how much oil he was producing and no one could rebute him...this was an excellent way to cheat the international community on the oil for food program...he was in control of just how much was "officially" pumped and the numbers given to the UN...
The present Iraqi Oil Ministry has chosen to maintain that system...
Why??
Well! I think you can fiqure that out for yourself...

Answer: 2.4 or 2.5 Million Barrels per day is based on what is sold through pipelines to the distribution points at the terminals (Turkey & Basrah) prior to loading on the ships. This is an accurate figure based on metered flow onto the ships or at the terminal. No one is going to pay for oil they aren't getting. Iraq is at least selling this much per day, and probably producing even more, but is not counted because of theft, spillage (I see a lot of that every day in person), etc. Believe me they know to the barrel exactly what is "Shipped"/"Sold" every day.

Sorry I couldn't answer sooner, but we have this time zone difference thing going on over here.

Other: I to believe that the raise in value of the NID will be incremental. Not to mention that it also needs the approval of the World Bank and IMF to go global and be Pegged.

-- July 17, 2006 11:14 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Terri = TM, but not Taxmamma,

Ah, ok, Well that helps.

Oh by the way, nothing against Walmart. I shop there, but I will say that K-Mart sucks. (after the movie Rainman, where that line was mentioned a couple of times, K-mart had to live with that slogan)

This is getting messy, reminds me about the soap " Melrose place" , when everybody had slept with everybody, they ran out of script.

Ok Terry, I know who you are now. Keep trucking.

And again, Carl to the rescue.

Getting to know everybody on the board takes some time, Carl the ex policeman, Outlaw the military man, Roger the trucker, Terri in WM Ar, Lance on assignment in Iraq, Sara, and the rest...dont have a clue, ....
That Roast in the Keys really seem like something we can enjoy. It's getting more and more real.

We're doing finger massage now.

Everything is analysed to death.

Toss in a couple of folklore stories now.

Lets have a "where did you get the info" vacation.

Here's a good one.

Sweden and Norway have always had this love/hate relationship and many stories are passed between the two countries.

The IQ in Sweden had dropped dramaticaly and the goverment realized they had to do something about the immigration from Norway.

In the Swedish consulate in Norways capitol Oslo, a set of questions was to be delivered to any Norwegian prospect trying to move to Sweden.

One day following call was recorded:

-"I would like to emigrate from here, to Sweden"
-"You have to answer three questions, at least one of them has to be correct in order for you to do that, are you ready?"
-"Ok, what is made of leather and have five fingers?...
-"Hello, are you there?"
-"Oh yes, I'm thinking, can I hear the question again?"
-"What's made of leather and have five fingers?"
-"Oh I dont know, I take my chances on the other two questions, whats the right answer by the way?"
-"RIGHT ANSWER IS, ONE GLOVE"
-Oh ofcourse, I would have known that, ok give me next question now."
-"What is made of leather and has ten fingers?"
-"Ten fingers , this is getting harder and harder, I dont have a clue"
-"Well if I don't get an answer you will have only one question left, and you know, it has to be correct otherwise you will fail, do you want to take a chance on the last question?"
-"Ok, whats the right answer by the way?"
-"RIGHT ANSWER IS, TWO GLOVES"
-"Ofcourse, how could I miss that, anyhow I'm ready for the last question"
-" What is the MAN called, he lives in Sweden in the Capitol, his wife is a QUEEN, he lives in the CASTLE, and his children is PRINCE and PRINCESS?
-"I'VE GOT IT, RIGHT ANSWER IS THREE GLOVES"

-- July 17, 2006 11:27 PM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

Taxmama.....what does your source say the Dinar will peg at...and approximately what time frame......and what brings them to that projection?

-- July 18, 2006 12:58 AM ∞

---

Copedawg wrote:

WOW! this place is still here and thriving!

-- July 18, 2006 8:46 AM ∞

---

Copedawg wrote:

WOW! this place is still here and thriving!

-- July 18, 2006 8:47 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

The funds that the US provided for re-construction will be used or obligated this year. I believe by the end of Aug. or Sept. the Iraqi Government will have to bite the bullet and start funding their own projects. The projects required are huge and cover petro-chemical and various utilities.

I believe they won't contract for these projects with a Dinar that has such a low value. If they did, then for example a company like Bechtel, would end up owning a large chunk of Iraq and other companies would do likewise.

This is one of the reasons I believe we will see a strong RV of the Dinar in the near future. To me, near future is weeks and not months.

______________________________________
As of February 2006, we have disbursed $10.5 of the $18.4 billion, funding projects in the security, economic, and political spheres. 83% of the $18.4 billion has been obligated to projects. We have a detailed plan for projects using the remaining funds that will be completed before the close of the 2006 fiscal year.

http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/rpt/60857.htm

-- July 18, 2006 10:34 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Stealing worthless Dinar they will just zero lop????

====

First Baghdad bank heist nets 1.4 billion

BAGHDAD, July 18 (KUNA) -- Unknown militants dressed as Iraqi security forces robbed the Al-Rafidain Bank branch in Al-Amiriya, western Baghdad, Tuesday taking a 1.4 billion Iraqi dinars trophy.

Sources from the Iraqi Interior Ministry said the robbers fled the scene in two green pick ups and a BMW.

This is the first bank heist since the looting that took place at several banks including the Iraqi Central Bank upon the fall of the former Saddam Baathist regime.

http://www.kuna.net.kw/Home/Story.aspx?Language=en&DSNO=887843

-- July 18, 2006 11:18 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Why steal Dinar now?

Looks like they wanted a ticket on the Dinar train.. and they got a very large one.. first class.. 1.4 BILLION.

Dare I hope that they might wish to retire to a tropical island oasis with their own private yacht and a couple of very beautiful wives? Or must we consider the possibility they may use the money at the RV rate toward furthering terrorism?

To me, this says the authorities around the globe will have to have very stringent guidelines in place for exchanging Dinar.. to catch any money laundering. The Iraqi government will have to watch the Banks carefully for transactions (real estate or opening large bank accounts) in case the heisters decide to deposit it or use it within Iraq, too.

Seems to me there are terrorists who are believers in the short term RV.. wonder what their sources of info are? It doesn't appear that they have bought their Dinar through a dealer in the US.

Sara.

-- July 18, 2006 11:33 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Sara....

I believe the Al-Rafidain bank has a shady background related to Saddam. Maybe it was an inside job! Hope the Police can catch them before they turn the Dinars into RPG's.

-- July 18, 2006 11:45 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Okie;

Maybe they just wished some money to finance their terrorism now and it has nothing to do with a short term RV..

Either way, though, I too hope they are caught before they turn it into the deaths of innocents.

I had just hoped they wanted a yacht and a couple of lovely wives in the tropics instead.. hence, ending some terrorism. :)

Sara.

-- July 18, 2006 12:00 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Sara....

I agree....I hope they went bye bye on their yacht with their lovely wives. :)

-- July 18, 2006 12:07 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Okie...

I bet your glad they didn't hit the Al Warka Bank instead Huh???

Outlaw

-- July 18, 2006 12:29 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Outlaw.....

You betcha I am! Do you remember about a year ago when a lot of discussion was going on about the merit of keeping your Dinars inside or outside of Iraq? Well, I solved that question by sending half of my stash to Warka and the other half to my daughter who lives overseas. I then bought another 3 mill. which I kept with me as cash.
I believe I got a little paranoid about putting it in different places and it violated my rule of "bird in hand", so I hope some pimply faced thug doesn't rob Warka in the near future.

-- July 18, 2006 1:55 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Sara Madgid wrote:

Why steal Dinar now?

Looks like they wanted a ticket on the Dinar train.. and they got a very large one.. first class.. 1.4 BILLION.

Dare I hope that they might wish to retire to a tropical island oasis with their own private yacht and a couple of very beautiful wives? Or must we consider the possibility they may use the money at the RV rate toward furthering terrorism?

To me, this says the authorities around the globe will have to have very stringent guidelines in place for exchanging Dinar.. to catch any money laundering. The Iraqi government will have to watch the Banks carefully for transactions (real estate or opening large bank accounts) in case the heisters decide to deposit it or use it within Iraq, too.

Seems to me there are terrorists who are believers in the short term RV.. wonder what their sources of info are? It doesn't appear that they have bought their Dinar through a dealer in the US.

Sara.

-- July 18, 2006 11:33 AM

I see that more as a window of opportunity that was open to them, before security stablilises further. I'm sure these militants have no more idea than we do (probably less) what is going to happen to the dinar in the short term. Even if the currency zero lops next week, they would still have a period of time to filter at least part of it through various means to exchange it for new currency.
1.4 Billion dinars (current street value in Iraq around $1.4 million) is better for the militants to have in hand than to still be sitting in a more secure bank in the future, that they may not be able to steal.

Just my thoughts.

-- July 18, 2006 3:25 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Okie...

I don't think your paranoid at all... just sounds like your covering all the bases!

Regards,
Outlaw

-- July 18, 2006 4:40 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

There'e a real interesting rule on aboutdinar.com that perhaps we could abide by as well...

All rumors or posts posted in the rumor forum of the website can not be personally attacked. If you do not believe a rumor state WHY the rumor is false with facts not name calling, insults, or attacks on their credibility. Anyone found in violation will be warned, offending posts deleted, repeated violations will result in temp ban and then permanent ban. This does not affect other forums but members should take their fight to the high noon room thread to argue and not disrupt the thread they are in.

Rumors may be false, but at least back them up with reasons why they are false.

Last night's slam on Taxmomma was uncalled for no matter how off base a speculation was presented. I want to hear what others have to say.

-- July 18, 2006 5:20 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

By the way... check out this link..

http://www.iraqdirectory.com/files/articles/article053.htm

The Iraqi Central Bank... Six trillion dinars is the net mass of cash in Iraq.

An official source in the Iraqi central bank revealed that the net mass of cash in Iraq reached 6 trillions of Iraqi dinars. The size of circulating cash is 4 trillions dinars.‏
And the source said that the central bank seeks now limitation of inflation that occurred in the time of bygone regime throughout random and unstudied mechanism Of the central bank and that caused a big rise in prices level.‏

He also clarified that the bank managed the reduction of inflation level through last April and hopefully a continuous work will cause eradication of more than 20% of inflation level in order that through coming five years the Iraqi economy enjoys balanced market with active economy.‏
And he pointed that the Iraqi economy is not submitted to budget but to total local product.
The bank now is capable of reinforcement the value of the Iraqi dinar with respect to other currencies.

( Translated from Arabic )

Looks like the magic number is 6

-- July 18, 2006 5:24 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Here is another potential delay in Dinar Nirvanna. This article is from www.iraqi-dinar-exchange.com

Title of the Article: Turkey signals it's prepared to enter Iraq.

Turkish officials signaled Tuesday they are prepared to send the army into northern Iraq if U.S. and Iraqi forces do not take steps to combat Turkish Kurdish guerrillas there — a move that could put Turkey on a collision course with the United States.

Turkey is facing increasing domestic pressure to act after 15 soldiers, police and guards were killed fighting the guerrillas in southeastern Turkey in the past week.

"The government is really in a bind," said Seyfi Tashan, director of the Foreign Policy Institute at Bilkent University in Ankara. "On the one hand, they don't want things to break down with the United States. On the other hand, the public is crying for action."

Diplomats and experts cautioned the increasingly aggressive Turkish statements were likely aimed at calming public anger and pressing the U.S. and Iraq to act against the Turkish Kurdish guerrillas. But they also said Turkish politicians and military officers could act if nothing is done.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 18, 2006 5:27 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Taylor,

I agree with you!

Taxmama... Sorry for thinking you might be MissDinar. I don't care if you were... and couldn't care less where you got your Dinar!

=============================

Rob N...

I think Turks are pissed because maybe the Kurds are stopping Insurgents from crossing into Iraq from Turkey!

Regards,

Outlaw

-- July 18, 2006 6:34 PM ∞

---

Millionaire2B wrote:

Taylor, I agree with you completely. I also think an apology, especially to TM, was warranted, instead of "ah, ok that helps". I think that some on here could show more respect whether you agree or disagree with someone. We really don't know who is posting and one day could truly regret some of the comments made.

-- July 18, 2006 6:36 PM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

It is nice to see that there are a few people here with manners.

Thank you.

And for the record, I have never in my life said anything derogatary against Wal-Mart.
We buy 50+ lbs of Wild Bird seed there every month. If it wasn't for the deals on this at Wal-Mart, wouldn't have all the wonderful birds visit that we do.
And they also bring some sanity and leverage into our lives, which is necessary for all.

-- July 18, 2006 6:55 PM ∞

---

VALERIO919 wrote:

IM NOT NEARLY AS INTELLEGENT AS MOST OF YOU, BUT I WILL SAY THAT I HAVE SOME NID, AND I DON'T MIND IF THEY END UP WORTHLESS. JUST AS I DON'T FRET WHEN MY LOTTERY TICKET DON'T WIN, I DON'T REALY EXPECT IT TO. I PLAY KNOWING THAT THERE IS A CHANCE I COULD, I JUST WANTED TO HAVE A TICKET. I DON'T SEE HOW THE NID CAN RV WITHOUT THE FUNDS TO BUY THE DINARS BACK. CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN THIS TO ME. I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE AFTER STABILITY AND GROWTH ALLOWED PROFIT FROM EXPORTS TO BE GATHERED IN THE IRAQI PIGGY BANK TO REBUILD AND PAYOFF DEBTS, AND THEN AFTER THAT THE AMOUNT OF THE WORLDS MONIES THEY HOLD FROM THE EXPORT SALES ALONG WITH THEIR OWN MONIES, WOULD FACTOR THE AMOUNT THAT THE DINAR COULD BE BOUGHT BACK FOR. THE ONLY OTHER FACTOR IS HOW MUCH DO THEY HAVE IN ASSETS, AND HOW FAST CAN THEY PRODUCE IT. IF THE NID SOMEHOW TAKES A HUGE GAIN AS SOME EXPECT, AND WE ARE ALL IN LINE TO CASH IN, WHERE WILL THE MONEY BE COMMING FROM? I NEED ONE OF YOU WISE MEN TO EXPLAIN THIS TO ME IN SIMPLE MANS TERMS

-- July 18, 2006 8:18 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Iraq, UN postpone launch of economic programme

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/MAC855752.htm

BAGHDAD, July 18 (Reuters) - The Iraqi government and United Nations have postponed the high-level launch of a major economic recovery programme for several weeks, officials said on Tuesday.

Senior diplomats and officials of international institutions had been due in Baghdad on Thursday to launch the International Compact for Iraq but the senior Iraqi minister involved said the war in Lebanon obliged key participants to change their plans.

"It has been postponed because of difficulties in getting high-level people into Baghdad, especially because of what's happening in Lebanon," Deputy Prime Minister Barham Salih told Reuters. He denied there were any fundamental problems.

Israel pounded Lebanon for a seventh day on Tuesday in response to the kidnapping of two soldiers by Hizbollah guerrillas, who have also fired rockets on northern Israel.

U.N. officials and Western diplomats closely involved in preparing the meeting confirmed the postponement, saying it could now take place in late August or early September.

The Compact is, broadly speaking, a five-year plan, involving Iraq's neighbours and wealthy foreign powers, to revive the potentially oil-rich economy after decades of war, sanctions and now vicious communal bloodshed.

Among key initial goals is winning relief on debts run up by Saddam Hussein with Gulf Arab states. Western states have already forgiven Iraq much of its debt but Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, the biggest Gulf creditors, have been taking their time.

end

Hey Valerie.. here's the best way I can explain it. Dinar or any currency trading is just like trading any commodity ( oranges, oil, lumber, ect.) No matter what happens in the world there will always be a basic need for these items and therefor this would set up a demand for a market driven price. In the case of the dinar, there is an unstable govt., uncertainty of the governmental financial future however, there is a basic need for a currency to buy groceries and necessities. The market has set this value at 1477 dinars per 1 US dollar. As political tensions ease and commerce begins to improve people and companies will need more of this currency for spending, building, taxes and payrolls. There will be a greater demand for the currency so value of it will rise. When spending goes up it strengthens the Govt. by tax base and creating stability for future govt. spending. People will begin to increase their trust in their currency. The currency is only as valuble as the people supporting it. If no one supports it, Govt or public, then it will become worthless.. much like the Saddam Dinars. To learn more go to http://encyclopedia.com/html/f/foreigne.asp

http://encyclopedia.com/html/m/money.asp

http://encyclopedia.com/html/c/commodit.asp

I hope this helps..

-- July 18, 2006 10:01 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Tuesday, July 18, 2006, 8:06 PM PDT

JERUSALEM (AP) Israeli military says small number of troops have entered southern Lebanon searching for tunnels and mines.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060719/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel

=========================================

More bad news folks...

Outlaw

-- July 18, 2006 11:21 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Taylor,

Ok no more slamming of Taxmama....I must say though, half of the board "revealed" their secret origin of their Dinarpurchase.

Dont care what anyone say, that was a fun move...and admit it Taylor, you laughed too.

Outlaws comment said it best.

-- July 19, 2006 12:38 AM ∞

---

DinarDuchess wrote:

Does anyone know if the savings accounts at Warka are insured against robbery, fraud looting etc. Thanks

-- July 19, 2006 5:37 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

DinarDuchess.....

I know they don't have FDIC coverage for their accounts but their AK-47 coverage for robbery is quite good.

-- July 19, 2006 6:40 AM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

US looks forward to more open Iraq economy

Paul Schemm
AFP
July 18, 2006

BAGHDAD -- The US commerce secretary and his Iraqi counterpart signed an agreement on Monday to enhance commercial relations and improve Iraq's investment climate as the massive American reconstruction program draws to an end.

Carlos Gutierrez visited Baghdad and declared his support for Iraq's attempts to open up its economy - though his delegation's vision of the future direction of the Iraqi economy appeared to be more ambitious than that of the Iraqis.

"It's important that the government of Iraq carry through on promising liberalization and reform measures recently undertaken," said Gutierrez in a speech before assembled Iraqi government officials and business leaders as he laid out his support for Iraq's economic efforts.

The event, organized by the American Chamber of Commerce, Iraq, featured a small trade fair focusing on the communications companies working in Iraq and a handful of private-public firms.

Communications, particularly mobile phone use, has been one of the few bright spots in the Iraqi economy with 7 million subscribers signed up in the last three years.

Officials recognized that the lack of security in the country was a serious barrier to foreign investment, and other than Iraq's massive oil reserves, there is little to attract foreign investors.

One US diplomat predicted that "oil will be lubricant" to future investment.

"Our focus in the beginning will most likely be developing local domestic investment and then over time see foreign investment looking seriously at Iraq," said Gutierrez, describing future aid in the form of training, advising, and capacity building.

The secretary's visit follows up on that of US President George W. Bush and his promise to send trade officials to Iraq to help with the process of opening up the economy.

It also comes as the administration's $22-billion reconstruction program runs out at the end of February.

US Undersecretary for International Trade Franklin Lavin said that the most important thing right now was to get the necessary legal measures in place and then start privatizing the many public sector industries.

"There are 59 state-owned enterprises that they have to do something with," he said, adding that they would be looking at the next six to 12 months closely.

Iraq's minister of commerce Abdel Falah Al Sudani told reporters that the investment law would be sent to parliament by the end of the week.

"The legal framework for investment in Iraq has been developed but not completely implemented," he said, predicting that it would go into effect by the end of the summer.

Privatization, however, is not something that is going to be rushed, maintained industry minister Fawzi Hariri, adding that he did not see it happening for at least five to 10 years.

"We believe in privatization, but we also believe in preparation, we have to prepare to privatize," he said.

Announcements by US officials in the Coalition Provisional Authority soon after the fall of the old regime in April 2003 that radical privatizations would be the rule of the day in the new Iraq provoked an uproar in the country and fears that the state's patrimony would be sold off to foreign investors.

Suspicion over foreign control of the economy and Iraq's oil and mineral wealth to this day has made the country reluctant to open up the economy to foreign ownership.

"Iraq is very socialist," said Hariri. "We need to educate ourselves," adding that the first order of business was to get parliament to pass the necessary legislation.

"Once these are in hand we can look at a case-by-case scenario where we can get the maximum benefit for Iraq and the industry itself strategically," he said.

-- July 19, 2006 10:43 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Iraq PM hints at expelling Iran opposition group
(AFP)
19 July 2006

BAGHDAD - Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Al Maliki said on Wednesday he was looking for ways to end the presence in his country of the Iranian opposition group, the People’s Mujahedeen of Iran.

“The presence in the country of this organization violates the constitution,” he told a press conference, accusing the organization of interfering in Iran’s internal affairs.

“This organization has been behaving as though it is an Iraqi organization,” he added, emphasizing that it is labeled as a terrorist organization in the United States and the European Union.

The group’s activities are supported by its political wing, the National Council of Resistance in Iran (NCRI) which has offices in France and Germany and carries out lobbying efforts against the Iranian government.

While the PMOI is characterized as a terrorist group by the United States and EU, it has many supporters in the US Congress and British parliament.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/focusoniraq/2006/July/focusoniraq_July93.xml§ion=focusoniraq

-- July 19, 2006 1:17 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Malki: peace initiative to be launched Saturday

Baghdad, July 19, (VOI) – Prime Minister Nouri al-Malki said on Wednesday a national reconciliation initiative declared last month would be launched on Saturday as planned.

“The higher commission for national reconciliation will meet on Saturday to launch the initiative practically…according to the plan we announced before,” Malki told a news conference after a cabinet meeting.

Malki and other government officials have said over the past few weeks that former opponents of the political process have shown readiness to join the peace plan according the to framework outlined by Malki late last month.

http://www.aswataliraq.info/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=23476&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

-- July 19, 2006 5:41 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Regarding the slamming of TaxMama:

I have no wish to draw this situation out, but I do think a lesson should be leart from this situation. I think everyone likes to hear rumours and speculation about inside sources that can have an influence on all of our investments. I'm probably stating the obvious here, but the difference with Taxmama's 'insider information' was that it was stated in such as way as to be taken as gospel, fact and as good as a done deal.

We (hopefully) all learn from our mistakes and I for one was gullible enough (or greedy enough, depending on your view) to fall for the news of an imminant RV by 45% that was stated as going to happen on a certain date. This led me to buy a large amount of additional dinars, as I saw that the prices to buy would soon be inflated.

By all means share rumous, tips, speculation, wild ass guesses - that's what we are all here for. Just PLEASE be responsible for the information you are giving out and say what validity the source of that information has so that we can make informed decisions about the integrity of that information for ourselves. (as Taxmama has SINCE done)

P.S. I don't regret my additional purchase, I just resent doing it on the back of information that turned out to be false, but what written as if fact.

NOTE TO SELF: Hide cheque book in safe and throw away key.

I don't belive slamming anyone in such a way as Taxmama received was justified or in anyones interests. We should not be looking to shut off all flow of information from any individuals here, just learn how much faith we can put in that information. Let us not forget the good advise and help also given regarding levels of taxes due etc that was given by Taxmama. I still believe she had good intentions.

-- July 19, 2006 6:37 PM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

Thank you, Nellie B. You are quite correct, I had excellent intentions.
I received what I perceived to be accurate and exciting information and passed it along. I learned quite a lesson there.
I am a business professional as a tax accountant and financial planner for 29 years. I have not enjoyed such a loyal and outstanding clientele by intentionally passing along incorrect information. Many of my clients have been with me in excess of 25 years. I am proud of my reputation with them and in my community and would say or do nothing to cause inaccurate information that would lead someone to take action that could cause any financial harm in any way. I am sorry you acted upon my "inside" information, but glad that you are not now regretting it.

I will, of course, if posting any other information I receive, give the source.

Thank you for the lesson.

-- July 19, 2006 6:53 PM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

I dont believe anything will be happening of any significance until the events in Israel and Lebanon play itself out and we see which direction this peace initiative goes that al-Maliki will launch on Saturday.

-- July 19, 2006 10:37 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

I did plan to buy more Dinars, but, based on report from an "impeccable" source, that a revalue was very very imminent.I stretched it, and bought, from a very expensive source, just to get it quick.

Don't worry Taxmama, I'm not pissed on you, I'm pissed on myself for believing in you.

I'm aware of more people on this board that went out and bought in panic.

For myself I can't blame anhyone other than myself, my own greed. I had planned to buy anyway, but I would have done it in another much cheaper way, if not for a panic message.

Now you're apologizing and now everything is nice and ducky, we're going to forget about it, be a happy bunch of civilized people and move on.

Sure, but I have a feeling you have to work really hard to get back any kind of respect from this point on.

Trust is easy to get, but once broken, it's very hard to mend.

-- July 19, 2006 10:46 PM ∞

---

tony luchese wrote:

Ladies and Gentlemen,
It is for the first time when I write a message in this website.
I don't have an opinion about the NID. Some of you might know me from Baghdad - I do recognize some of you here.
The reason I write here is because I want to sell NID (about 3/4 of a million), and I want to find a buyer. It is too small amount to list it on Ebay.
The dinars I have are good, I have'em from the Iraqi National Bank where I exchanged myself.
There are guys among you that can vouch for me right here on this website.
The dinars I want to sell are the only I have. I am trying to sell it not because I know something you don't/ I just need the money.
For contact, email at tonyluchese@yahoo.com
Thank you very much.

-- July 20, 2006 12:30 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Roger and Nelly B.

I for one did not purchase additional Dinars based upon what Taxmamma had posted. I refuse to be carried by every wind of rumor and speculation.

I am content with the amount of Dinars I have. If Taxmamma's information had been correct then I would have what I have.

Regardless of the positive information posted on this site or in the news; it does not necessiarly mean we run out and mortgage the farm. In contrast, because of negative news from Iraq we do not throw the baby out with the bath water and liquidate all we have.

I really believe patience and prudence will win the day.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 20, 2006 10:24 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Iraq's Top Shi'ite Cleric Calls for End of Sectarian Violence
By VOA News
20 July 2006

Iraq's top Shi'ite Muslim cleric has called on Iraqis to unite and warned sectarian violence could destroy the country.

Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani urged religious and political leaders, tribal chiefs and others to exert maximum efforts to stop the killing.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-07-20-voa12.cfm?rss=1

-- July 20, 2006 1:18 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Breaking with U.S., Iraq jabs at Israel
New York Times News Service
Published July 20, 2006

BAGHDAD -- Iraq Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki on Wednesday denounced the Israeli attacks on Lebanon, marking a sharp break with President Bush's position and highlighting the growing power of a Shiite Muslim identity across the Middle East.

"The Israeli attacks and air strikes are completely destroying Lebanon's infrastructure," al-Maliki said at a news conference inside the fortified Green Zone, which houses the U.S. Embassy and the seat of the Iraqi government.

"I condemn these aggressions and call on the Arab League foreign ministers' meeting in Cairo to take quick action to stop these aggressions. We call on the world to take quick stands to stop the Israeli aggression."

The militant Shiite cleric Moqtada Sadr, whose followers play a crucial role in the government, said Friday that Iraqis would not "sit by with folded hands" while the violence in Lebanon raged. Sadr commands a powerful militia, the Mahdi Army.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0607200241jul20,1,6181029.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

Care to comment, Carl?

Sara.

-- July 20, 2006 1:22 PM ∞

---

DinarDuchess wrote:

Thanks Okie, you cant beat an AK-47 for insurance

-- July 20, 2006 1:50 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Rob N.

You did right, you showed a cool head, and had more of a critical mind than I had in this affair.

I did plan to buy, at the time I did'nt have the ammount of Dinars that I considered being my goal.

So I was cought at the very exact point in time, when I was ready to do my additional purchase.

So it's not that I regret buying Dinars. That was already in the works, but I had researched more economical ways to do it and was just about ready, when the panic call came.

So much for that.

Again, trust is easy to get,but once broken it's hard to mend.

-- July 20, 2006 2:06 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Hello Gang...

Just a quick note to say for what it's worth, I personally know Tony Luchese. He was stationed with me in Baghdad. We bought our Dinar at the same place. I can vouch that he's an honest guy (He's a cop) and I know his Dinars are good.

If your wanting to buy a small amount of Dinar... He's your man.

Stay safe Tony,

Outlaw

-- July 20, 2006 2:24 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

US says Iranians witnessed N.Korea missile test
Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:19am ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - One or more Iranians witnessed North Korea's recent missile tests, deepening U.S. concerns about growing ties between two countries with troubling nuclear capabilities, a top U.S. official said on Thursday.

But U.S. officials have long said that Iran and North Korea have been collaborating and have expressed serious concerns that cash-strapped Pyongyang was keen to sell missiles and possibly also nuclear material. "Our understanding is that North Korea has had a number of commercial relations in the Middle East with respect to missiles," Hill said.

North Korea-Iran ties are of even more concern now as the militant Islamic group Hizbollah, which is backed by Iran, is trading rocket fire with Israel, Hill and Republican Sen. George Allen of Virginia said during the hearing of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-07-20T151923Z_01_WAT006092_RTRUKOC_0_US-KOREA-NORTH-USA.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

-- July 20, 2006 2:33 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

IDF: Hizbullah built mass bunker network

Senior Northern Command officer tells Ynet that soldiers killed in Lebanon Wednesday were part of mission aimed at uncovering 40-meter deep poured concrete bunkers along border. Despite challenges, army determined to complete operation
Hanan Greenberg

A senior IDF Northern Command officer told Ynet that Hizbullah has set up an extensive underground bunker network not far from the Israeli border.

Vice Premier Shimon Peres also mentioned the issue of the bunker network during a recent meeting with European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana. “Hizbullah dug tunnels under extensive areas of south Lebanon and rigged the area with a half ton of explosives,” Peres said.

The IDF defined the operation in the area as “shaping the border.” Wednesday’s operation, which ended in two fatalities, revealed the challenges the army would have to face to reach this goal. The destruction of Hizbullah bases along the border is only one aspect of the activities, and this mission too is steeped in no small danger, as hundreds of kilograms of explosives have been planted in the area.

Hizbullah has built a sophisticated system of bunkers, constructed of poured concrete, some of them equipped with communications systems. The IDF knows if they don’t demolish this bunker system, there will not be quiet along the border after the operation in Lebanon.

The IDF called on hundreds of thousands of southern Lebanon residents in dozens of villages and town to evacuate their houses for the north to avoid coming to harm. The IDF intends to extend it attacks deeper into Lebanese territory, up to a couple dozen miles from the Israeli border. The army is aware that hundreds of thousands of Lebanese have evacuated, but many more remain in the targeted area.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0%2C7340%2CL-3278675%2C00.html

-- July 20, 2006 2:59 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Rob N.

I too was planning to buy more, as and when I could afford to. As it happens now, I've bought up to what I am happy with for the forseeable future.

If the dinar train is carrying a big payload, I will buy Taxmama a very large drink at the hogroast. If the train comes off the tracks and gets wrecked, I only have myself to blame. I broke the golden rule of investing by spending more than I could afford to lose. No-one made me do that. I made a choice and am prepared to work off the loss it that happens, but I don't think that is likely. In the mean time I'm paying about 5% for the money I borrowed for my ticket. I'm comfortable with that.

-- July 20, 2006 6:11 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

NellY:
As I see it, the only way we can lose is if the entire middle east region goes up in flames from expanding conflicts...then most certainly the Iraqi Government as it now exist will no longer be....
If the source of the heat can be extracted from the pot of water...the probability of having a pot boiling over is slim....so lets hope the more level headed leaders of the world will remove the heating fuel of an expanding middle east conflict...

It looks like we are going to set on the dinar for a while...because if the slide continues...the Shia and Sunni are determine to have their little civil war....in Lebanon it lasted 15 years...
Iraq is anyones guess...

I see some good movement in that the new Iraqi PM has and is removing several key securty personnel as I write this...for failure to act and stop the milita's from spreading ethnic discourse...

Lets keep our fingers crossed

-- July 20, 2006 6:34 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I like the part about moving money in and out of Iraq. This could be for the stock exchange. Looks good to me!!_
______________________________________

Iraq cabinet passes foreign investment law
Posted: Thursday, July 20, 2006

Baghdad

Iraq's cabinet passed the country's first postwar law to regulate foreign investment, hoping it will attract badly needed cash to revive the country's shattered economy.

But the legislation, which also requires parliamentary approval, does not cover investment in upstream oil production and exploration.

The law gives Iraqi and foreign investors equal shares in investment projects, except in land ownership.

It allows investors to move money in and out of Iraq with few obstacles, according to a draft obtained by Reuters, and also requires that at least 50 per cent of the employees in a company should be Iraqis.

http://www.tradearabia.com/tanews/newsdetails_snECO_article108498_cnt.html

-- July 20, 2006 7:00 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Interesting data found on FMS.Treas. Gov

You might want to go there and analyze things yourself. One ineresting aspect I found is that there is a lot of countries out there with a currency exchange to the dollar, that is well below Iraq Dinars.

Its not uncommon at all to find currencies in the 1000 to 10.000 range.

Zambia 3350
Venezuela 2150
Colombia 2477

There is more of them, also countries where the exchange range is even bigger , Zimbabwe 119500.

Nuclear nations, rich in oil, like Iran 8229.

Seems that if it gets in the class of Turkey with it's 1345000 Lira exchange rate, you end up in the painzone, and they now have the new Lira at 1.57.

Compare those plus more with Iraq and an exchange rate of 1477 to the Dollar, and you find that Iraq is in no panic to zero loop.

What I found interesting is that Iran with an exchange rate of 8229 to the Dollar, selling it's oil on the Dollar based market have no intention of zero looping.

Even if you look at industrialized countries, very very few have a value above the Dollar.

You get a bundle of Indian Rupies, and Russian Rubles, for a Dollar, both nations have nuclear, and space industry.

Nations that have extensive trade, and strong manufacturing base, like Japan and China, same thing there, you get a bundle of their currency for each Dollar.

Comes to show, that the number on the currency doesnt mean anything other than denote a unit to the bill.

A lot of countries have a good working economy, and an extensive manufacturing base, and get a complete bill of health, and still operate their monetary units with a lot more numbers than the Dollar bill.

If I swap a fish for a coconut and it has equal value, then it does'nt matter if I use one djingaling, and still get a fish for a coconut, or ten djingalings, as long as I get my damn fish for my coconut.

One historical reason to redo currency, is when the denominations are so big, and you need so much physical bills for simple dayly tasks, that the money handling in itself will stop you from ordianry life. Germany after WW1 had a galloping inflation, where the money prints were spewing out inflated Deutchmark. At the end there, it was bizarre, you had to have bags of money for grocery shopping. Iraq is nowhere near any problem of that sort, and they're in a completely different economical situation where they have inflation but under control, and their currency is probaly worth more than it is sold on the market now.

If the proposed zero loop is an attempt to be closer to Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia in currency, to look good, or if this is an attempt to do a zero loop for some status reason, it's off the mark as a reasonable or even necessary thing to do.

-- July 20, 2006 7:13 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Carl,
Naaa. I think there is other winds blowing now. Have been follwing this Middle East closely, both on TV and the net.

I checked in on Al Jaazera, and followed up a survey done, it was a pretty extensive one, asking the arabs, who was to blame for this crisis.

In the past you could see a 100% blame on Israel for anything, what was interesting, is that the "Israel Blame Factor" is now down to about 30%, and choices like Iran, Syria and Hezbolla,are getting high numbers.

You may also have noticed how completely silent the Arab leaders are.

In the past, this is where they were screaming themselves to a point of horsevoice, proclaiming this and proclaiming that.

Its the old, resistance to change, but at least the above stated shows that they are not blind, deaf and dumb.

Changes are coming.

-- July 20, 2006 7:30 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Roger!
I hope you are right!!!!

-- July 20, 2006 9:58 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Me, too, Roger!
I hope you are right, too!

Sara.

-- July 20, 2006 10:41 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

I think this merits a "Thank You, God!"

Sara.

===

Arab Majority May Not Stay Forever Silent

By YOUSSEF IBRAHIM
July 17, 2006

Yes, world, there is a silent Arab majority that believes that seventh-century Islam is not fit for 21st-century challenges. That women do not have to look like walking black tents. That men do not have to wear beards and robes, act like lunatics, and run around blowing themselves up in order to enjoy 72 virgins in paradise. And that secular laws, not Islamic Shariah, should rule our day-to-day lives.

And yes, we, the silent Arab majority, do not believe that writers, secular or otherwise, should be killed or banned for expressing their views. Or that the rest of our creative elite - from moviemakers to playwrights, actors, painters, sculptors, and fashion models - should be vetted by Neanderthal Muslim imams who have never read a book in their dim, miserable lives.

Nor do we believe that little men with head wraps and disheveled beards can run amok in Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Iraq making decisions on our behalf, dragging us to war whenever they please, confiscating our rights to be adults, and flogging us for not praying five times a day or even for not believing in God.

More important, we are not silent any longer.

Rarely have I seen such an uprising, indeed an intifada, against those little turbaned, bearded men across the Muslim landscape as the one that took place last week. The leader of Hezbollah, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, received a resounding "no" to pulling 350 million Arabs into a war with Israel on his clerical coattails.

The collective "nyet" was spoken by presidents, emirs, and kings at the highest level of government in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Bahrain, Qatar, Jordan, Morocco, and at the Arab League's meeting of 22 foreign ministers in Cairo on Saturday. But it was even louder from pundits and ordinary people.

Perhaps the most remarkable and unexpected reaction came from Saudi Arabia, whose foreign minister, Prince Saud Al-Faisal, said bluntly and publicly that Hezbollah's decision to cross the Lebanese border, attack Israel, and kidnap its soldiers has left the Shiite group on its own to face Israel.

All in all, it seems that when Israel decided to go to war against the priestly mafia of Hamas and Hezbollah, it opened a whole new chapter in the Greater Middle East discourse. And Israel is finding, to its surprise, that a vast, not-so-silent majority of Arabs agrees that enough is enough. To be sure, beneath the hostility toward Sheik Nasrallah in Sunni Muslim states lies the deep and bitter heritage of a 14-century Sunni-Shiite divide, propelled to greater heights now by fears of an ascendant Shiite "arc of menace" rising out of Iran and peddled in the Sunni world by Syria.

The sooner this is settled the better.

http://www.nysun.com/article/36110

-- July 20, 2006 10:56 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

A little more good news:

- 20/07/2006

(MENAFN) Iraq announced that it has signed a commercial cooperation agreement with the United States to move the country toward a market economy after decades of state planning, Associated Press reported.

U.S. Commerce Secretary indicated that progress in Iraq's economy hinged on improved security.

Oil is the biggest source of income for the Iraqi government, which is struggling to curb violence and restore the supply of electricity and water.

Iraqi Trade Minister hailed the pact as a milestone.

This agreement will be one of the important agreements that encourages the Iraqi economy to move from centralized economy to free economy, the minister said.

Sara and all,

Having spent over 10 years, in this part of the world during the last 25, I agree that there is a huge Silent Majority. The problem is they are still silent. Most Arabs simply want to live their lives in simple peace, make a Dinar or Rial, and raise their families. The problems are the extremist's and the Iman's. The Iman's want control of everyones lives and use uneducated and thus un-employable people as force or coercion against those that are educated, or at least have an outside view of the world. As in most of the Arab world education is in the control of the Mosques and not a State run system. The masses are taught only the Koran, and then only in the flavor of the (usually) Jihadist Iman. If all you are ever taught comes out of one book, and that is all you ever learn from cradle to grave, then you will believe what the Iman tells you. You don't know any better. If you want to look back at our Christian history we did the same thing. All education was in the hands of the Roman Church, and so we ended up with little things like the Spanish Inquisition, and some other very nasty things. Lets not forget that many times in the past it was illegal and death for somone not of the church or nobility to possess, much less read a book, including the Bible. Not pointing fingers just stating history.

I deal with Arabs and people of the Islamic faith from numerous countries every day by the hundereds. Unfortunately most, 90%+ can not read or write in their own language. This means that what they do know of their religon is second hand at best, because they can not actually read the word of their Prophet. It is ultimately the Iman's opinion that gets passed along. This is why I believe that Democracy is felt to be such a danger over here. Democracy brings education, and that threatens the Iman' and his whole position of power.

I remember being in downtown Baghdad in '88 getting drunk with a bunch of shop owners and many others from the district I was visiting. Even at that time I felt that the Iraqi's were to be feared. Not as warriors, but in the business world. They live for the Game as they put it, and the game is business. Those are the ones that will eventually make this madness stop. They are the Silent Majority we are still waiting to hear from. I hope Allah is listening to their silent prayers.

-- July 21, 2006 8:55 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Lance:
You are so correct...control the schools and what is taught...control the airwaves of radio and TV as to what information is releashed ...censor or prevent the internet...limit communication devices you have all you need to stay in power.....

-- July 21, 2006 11:23 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Lance;

It is my prayer and hope that the vast majority of those elected and placed into the positions of power in Iraq are part of that silent majority and represent them. I believe Maliki and the other politicians, by and large, are working within the framework and understanding of the silent majority.. and for their interests. They all - politician and silent majority alike - just wish to get on with life and have peace.. if only they could get the terrorists to let them all alone.

My hope is that the truth is being taught at home after they come home from the Imam's preaching at the mosque, and that they are able to have those "teachable moments" with their children when they hear of or see what the terrorists have done. Then the younger generation will learn to be tolerant because their parents are able to pass on their silent majority values to them. With tolerance will come peace and 'a future and a hope' for the region and their families.

Sara.

-- July 21, 2006 1:32 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Good information everybody is posting on the changing tide in the Middle East.
The last part of the news below indicates Maliki is on a deadline to bring Iraq under control. I believe if he doesn't take a stand against the armed militia in Iraq soon it will take him down. His first step should be to disarm his fat buddy Al-Sadr and kick him out of the country. Sadr is part of the problem and for sure doesn't fit the trend that everybody else is seeing in that part of the world.
I believe Maliki can get the job done.

=============================
Iraqi paper views premier's forthcoming US visit

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

21 July 2006 (BBC Monitoring)
Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki will leave for Washington in the next two days on a visit to the United States during which he will meet with his host President George Bush at a time the two men desperately need such a visit.
======================
The spectre of the increase in violence in the country will overshadow Al-Maliki's visit to Washington as this does not serve the US presence in Iraq. Iraqi sources are now openly saying that Washington has given the Baghdad government a six-month period to end violence and safeguard stability in the country. Otherwise, a national salvation government will be set up and this will mean toppling Al-Maliki's government, dissolving the Council of Representatives, and placing the country under a strong military leadership that is not affiliated to any political party or forces that will prepare the country, during an interim period which might last two years, for new general elections while placing the security forces with their various police and army groupings under the command of the US forces that will be responsible for all their field movements and activities.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php?refid=DH-S-21-07-2006&article=9492

-- July 21, 2006 7:16 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Is Iraq Another Vietnam? Not for U.S. Troop Levels
by Tim Kane, Ph.D., and David D. Gentilli
Backgrounder #1954
July 21, 2006

Each war is unique, and any comparison to other wars invariably suffers from oversimplification. With respect to troop deployments and casualties, comparing the Iraq War with the Vietnam conflict will demonstrate more differences than similarities.

Simply put, there are far fewer U.S. troops in Iraq today than there were in Vietnam in the late 1960s, and there are far fewer casualties. Second, troop levels are more stable in Iraq. Third, the duration of deployments cannot be compared because U.S. engagement with Iraq has been shorter, and the Iraq conflict is open-ended. Overall, American strategy in Iraq is less reliant on military muscle and more focused on the political and economic aspects of fighting a counterinsurgency. Focusing on political and economic development is the superior strategy, but success will require patience and endurance.

What This Means for Americans

Iraq is not Vietnam. The war in Iraq, some 40 years after the Vietnam conflict, is different both quantitatively and qualitatively. In the late 1960s and early 1970s, the ranks of the U.S. military were filled with draftees; now they are filled exclusively with volunteers. In the 1960s, policymakers focused on body counts of the enemy; now they focus on the deaths of our own troops.

Both of these measures miss the point. What should matter to Americans is the mission to secure freedom abroad, because that is why our troops join and serve. However, troop numbers do inform us and dispel some conventional myths.

First, although troop levels have held steady in Iraq for four years, the political winds in Congress have shifted from calling for more troops to calling for fewer troops. It is likely that U.S. troop levels in Iraq will decline as the war enters its fifth year.

Second, by a ratio of nearly 3:1, there are fewer U.S. troops stationed overseas today than there were during the Vietnam conflict, even though the percentage of troops abroad compared to the total force is similar. This shows that the American military’s footprint is smaller today, contrary to the myth of a new imperial posture.

Third, Iraq is not a meat grinder, nor is it more deadly than Vietnam. The number of U.S. troop deaths as a proportion of the total number to have served in Iraq is comparable to what it was in Vietnam. Though all wars are dangerous and troops endure many hardships, the argument that Iraq is especially deadly is not supported by the data. The data may, ironically, describe an overemphasis on force protection at the expense of cultural engagement.

Fourth, despite political pressure, the U.S. effort in Iraq places far less emphasis on numbers of troops. Even though there have been mistakes along the way, there has been a greater focus on the political aspect of the counterinsurgency in Iraq than there was in Vietnam.

Conclusion

The most important thing for Americans to remember about the Iraq War is that the vast majority of U.S. military personnel are serving admirably. Sadly, more than 2,500 have been killed, but they have rid the world of a murderous dictatorship that was determined to acquire weapons of mass destruction; they have killed and captured thousands of terrorists; and they have helped a fledgling democracy to beat the odds and secure roots in the Middle East. They have done all this in the face of great adversity and in a restrained manner that should make Americans proud.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/bg1954.cfm

-- July 21, 2006 8:09 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Iraq's police overwhelmed by violence

By Dan Murphy, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

Fri Jul 21, 4:00 AM ET

BAGHDAD - At her home in central Baghdad, Niran al-Sammarai frets over the fate of her husband, kidnapped Saturday with 30 of his colleagues from a conference hall in one of the most heavily patrolled parts of Baghdad.

In Rasafah district, a police captain says he and colleagues are contemplating mass resignations in frustration over mistrust from US forces and orders from Iraqi politicians to release known criminals.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20060721/ts_csm/oolympic

-- July 22, 2006 1:08 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance.

Wow, you wrote such a good piece there, I admire your insight that comes with years of experience.

Carl is right in that if you control the information, the media and censor the internet, you will control the minds of people.

China is controlling the internet, and surely have a say in what news to broadcast, but tell me Lance, from what I have been hearing, the information is free in Iraq now, isn't it? I heard that there are hundreds and hundreds of magazines, radiostations , and a flurry of TV stations.

Are they censored in any way or form?

I can understand if they are influenced from culture, and old way of thinking, but in circumstances like there is in Iraq, are the TV staations, Radio stations and papers, "pushing the limit" so to say, constantly trying to pass old forbidden lines, and try to "dare to say it" , or is it basically the same old grind day after day?

Can you say what is going on over there in that aspect, basically, are there changes or not?

Second question I have for you is:

On the recieving end, I understand that if you can't read and get your info basically as a second hand info from your Iman, you will eventually align your thinking to him.

However, my question is, nowdays, there are TV,s radios, and even though he cant read and newspapaers would'nt do him any good, then at least radio and a TV would reach him.

Is that way an influence on him, or are there big obstacles like there is only one TV in five hundred people, and no power,or some similar situation?

I really appreciate your observations, and love to get some real insiders info (for a change).

-- July 22, 2006 1:11 AM ∞

---

Seeker wrote:

Good evening one and all.
This the first time I've posted on this site but I've been viewing it for some time.
About 6 weeks ago I recieved some information from an acquaintance about idea of investing in Dinars. This acquaintance had recieved the information and some Dinar from a close relative. After being presented with the information, I as a responsable individual I believe myself to be, started doing my homework. I started looking on the WWW for every piece of information I could find. I GOOGLED. I YAHOOED. I used every resource I could think of to get more information on the validity of the information I had recieved. This search is what brought me to this site. Of all the places I've viewed,I believe this one to be the most valuable.
I believe this page brings to the table the best melting pot of ideas,opions and sources than any other I have viewed. With this many people, each doing thier own research, and sharing it here with thier opions and ideas has tought me so much and opened my eyes to alot more. What I read here are the opions and ideas of real people like me. People with dreams and desires. Opions and ideas, strengths, weaknesses and EMOTIONS. Sometimes the emotions get the best of the conversation, but thats what gives this place flavor and life. Most sites are slanted either one way or another. For Dinar, against Dinar. For the bird in the hand, or the bird in the bank.

Just to be upfront I HAVE invested in the bird in the hand.

Now after that long winded introduction I would like to address my reason for breaking my silence and op-ening my big mouth.

First, I believe I personaly am souly responseable for the information I receive, how I use it or react to it. I don't believe it's right to blame somebody else for my decisions. Especially when that source is only trying to share some information they have received and believe to be real. I personaly only believe, or try to only believe in documented facts.

Next, I do not believe there will be ANY advnace notice to a RV of the Dinar. I'll simply wake up one day and I'll either be rich or the train will have stopped and I'll get off, trade in my ticket and possible make a small return on my investment.

Lastly, in a twisted turn of the cosmos and information I have read here, I believe I personaly know who TAXMAMA is. I believe her to be the close relative of the acquaintance that originaly introduce my to the Dinar Train. If that is so I can attest to her integraty and her truthfullness when she say what she says she is "A CPA" She has a large vested interest in where the Dinar goes. She is not MISSDINAR. Her handle "TAXMAMA" comes from when she used to ride shotgun with my aquaintence in a semi on the hiways of this great land we get to call home. I understand her reasons for not divulging the source of her Dinar purchase's and respect it. I also know the source of her information and know it to be a genuine source. Though I must say Taxmama, in my search for information I checked out your source and decided it is one I personaly have chosen to stay away from. I believe the DOC has a personal adgenda and I don't want to be one of his victims. Not to say some of his information isn't exciting. It feeds my lust for information and excitment and provides good food for thought. I just can't blindly trust it, his track record isn't that good.

With ALL that said. Taxmama, if you are who I think you are, rest asured your personal info is safe as I have made a commitment to our common acquaintance to not share what I know. I simply want to share with the rest of this board, that you are a real person and the only personal interest you have in the Dinar Train is the same one EVEYBODY else here has in that we all would like to see it turn into a super freightliner and deliever the goods. Your informational source is genuine and what we do with that information once shared is, or should be, our personal responsibility. Please do not stop sharing, give us more, I personaly have not reached overload capacity yet. Though a little documentation would be nice. If no documentation is available then a word of caution would be nice.

SOooo, from the outside looking in I want to thank you all for your information and opions. IF I ever come accross any fresh info not already posted here I'll greedily share as I feel I owe it to the cause.

Thankyou for the space to share. Later
Seeker

-- July 22, 2006 2:58 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Roger,

Unfortunately you are wrong in most but not all. First the right; Yes there is freedom of the press here in Iraq. But that is a double edged sword. Back to that Iman. With him being the savvy person that he is, he is now controling the local papers/rags (which most are) and also owns the local radio station. So when you go to prayer, you are actually hearing the Iman tell you to only read or listen to "HIS" approved story once again. Another thing that struck me about your comments were how American they were. Not a bad thing, it just really showed. I am assuming that you were born an raised an American (like I was), in a basically Christian society. But the other thing that struck me was your view that every Iraqi has a TV, Radio, access to a News Paper, not to mention the internet. Yes many Iraqi's have this, but the vast majority do not.

I just returned this AM from visiting another Camp over here morning. This is a few of the things that I saw: Children of school age (Saturday is off) begging along the highway for food or money, naked boys swimming in a oil polluted pond, people living in tents with no water (using the same water the boys were swimming in) to drink, not to mention no electricity at all, children herding their families camels, etc.... And this was by the hundereds, and not just an isolated group. This was in the rural areas between cities/towns. In the actual towns it is just more cramped and crime ridden. So instead or a family of 8 in a fair sized tent, you have whole extended families of 20+ living in a one room apartment with no running water or electricity. News in the towns is gotten at the Sidewalk Cafes, where the men gather to discuss the news. Many of these are under the auspice of our infamous Iman or even worse the local Warlord/Sheik. So any discussion is going to be in the context of how the local winds are blowing, for your own, and families self preservation. Really not so different from small town America where I call home. You go to the local diner and meet and greet all the people there, have coffee and discuss politics or how the corn is doing this year. The only difference here is that Big Brother is watching, a spy for the Sheik or Iman. Granted this is not happening everywhere. But enough to make a difference.

So there is censorship at the local level. And the censorship is in most cases just self preservation. This may be hard for many who do not live here, or have seen what it's like, to really understand the way it is for the common Iraqi. I had actually studied long ago the Arab culture years before I was ever came over here. Thought I understood what it was like and was thus fully prepared to take on the Arab world. Now I understand that I still don't have a clue for many of the cultural differences even after all this time. This is just one of those cases where you actually have to be born in this culture to understand it fully. I have great respect for the Arab and Islamic cultures when they are not blowing people and things up. But do I truly understand them? Not by a long shot, and I deal with them every day.

I have said before, and will shout it again. The only thing that will eventually stop this madness is education. Unfortunately it is a generational process that will take many years. Let me give you just one example. I deal with local (Iraqi) Truck drivers over here on a regular basis. You can believe me or not, but 90%+ have no idea of how to read the speedometer on their dashboard, or even know what it indicates. It's not that the Iraqi's are stupid, which many people say, it is just that they are uneducated. I find many if not most of these uneducated actually very smart and savvy. They work very, very, hard to send their children to school so they can have a better life in the future. Many make less the $3-5.00 a 12 hour day performing grueling manual labor. This is the opportunity that we (America) have given them. And for that, the majority of them are thankfull that Saddam is gone. But can you imagine sitting in your LazyBoy watching CNN, that this is actually a vast improvement for these people. I do know that it is, but freedom is never free, and almost always painfull, and this is the lesson the Iraqi's are learning.

Ok, Roger, I have pontificated enough. And none of the above is directed at you or anyone else. It is directed at our American and some times blind culture. But for all that it, is still the best in the world, and thank God I am an American.

-- July 22, 2006 7:05 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Roger and All,

Current temperture is 120.2 here, so another lovely windy day in Iraq. One more story before I call it a day. I use this story as an example to friends back in the States to show them at least one cultural difference.

Ahmed the driver has just hit another truck becausing he wasn't paying attention, causing damage to both. Now I witnessed this and he knows it. Now I as the American ask him why, and he tells me that his wife is pregnant and having a baby, and was rushing to get home. I remind Ahmed that last week he was rushing home because his wife had died. Amed tells me that that was his other wife, but she's all better now. So Ahmed tells me that he was rushing today because the sun was in his eyes and he didn't see the other truck. I remind Ahmed that the sun has set. So Ahmed tells me that it was too dark to see. I remind him that he has his light on. Ahmed at this point is frustrated because I will not accept his excuse. So he pulls the big one out of the hat. "En Shalla" or Gods Will. At this point nothing else can be said, as Ahmed has placed the blame on God.

Now if I was an Arab, at some point in the above, we would have reached an agreement after the 2nd or 3rd lie. For in Ahmed's view he was never really at fault, but by compromising and never telling the real truth that we both knew, he feels that he has won. So one of the things I have learned over here is never to get to the En Shalla stage. For once Gods Will is invoked, it is all over and there is no further chance of discussion. It is sort of like Catholic Confession without the priest. You just forgive yourself, because it is God's Will!!!

By the way. Ahmed and I still talk. Last week he forgot and told me he had never been married. And yes the story is true. You just got to love this place!!!

-- July 22, 2006 7:39 AM ∞

---

Terri wrote:

I agree with Seeker's comments about Taxmama --

Taxmama, anything new?

-- July 22, 2006 10:06 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Lance:
Just read your post about the Iraqi people and what you observe everyday there....that is one of the best articles I have ever read about the Iraqi people, and this includes newspapers, editorials,magazines, etc...
Well thought out, well written, greatly appreciated..
Kudo's to you and your abilities to express yourself and observations well..
I for one would like to see more of these observation post from you...

-- July 22, 2006 10:22 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I just received an e-mail from Warka Bank in Baghdad regarding the current status of their on-line banking. I opened an account with them over a year ago while in Iraq and have always communicated with them by manual mode (e-mails & phone calls)so this is a big step forward for them.
This is offered as "information only" and nothing else....
Talk about changing times...note where this guy slams the previous regime....if he had done this a few years ago, he would get a one-way ticket to chop-chop square.
==========================================================

Dear Mr. xxxxx

Thank you for choosing our bank and taking interest in our fine services.

We look forward to assisting you in all your financial and investment requirements in Iraq by providing you with our very best banking services and customer care ensuring your total satisfaction and comfort.

I would like to bring to your kind attention Warka Bank for Investment and Finance is the first Iraqi bank among all its competitors to be utilizing advanced technology and implementing the latest online banking version where you can do various banking transactions at the tip of your fingers.

We are currently implementing the highest security features on our online banking system where we are using a special encryption line supplied by VERISIGN Company which along with the existing firewall will prevent cyber theft and the unwanted entry of hackers. A password will be given to our client where he or she can feel free to change it as they see appropriate.

Online banking is at the final stages of completion. all that is left is establishing a communication link with the outside internet server of which our dedicated technical staff are working around the clock to implement and hopefully will be resolved as soon as possible, details of which will be provided to you accordingly.

Unfortunately all these minor problems and delays are due to the previous regime not paying any attention to the building of the Iraqi infrastructure.

A password will be provided to our esteemed client by our E-Banking department once the online banking application form has been completed, signed and submitted by the client to the
E-Banking Department e-bank@warkainvestmentbank.com

Access can be obtained by visiting our website www.warka-bank.com and clicking the online banking icon.
Login using your account number and password and enjoy the experience of the many unique services that our bank has to offer.

Below is the complete list of diversified services that will be provided by our esteemed bank.

Account Balances which Contain:

- Display Accounts: Actual accounts held at the bank
- Cheque Book Request
- Money Transfer
- Stop Cheques Request
Inquiries:
- Internet Statement: Transactions applied while using online banking.
- Open Period Statement
- Currency Exchange Rates

MAINTAIN CLIENT INFORMATION:
- Change Personal Information
- Display Personal Information
- Change Login Password

MAINTAIN INTERNET LC:
- Apply for internet LC
- Internet LC drafts
- Send LC from template
- Show sent LC status
- Import LC inquiry

CUSTOMERS NOTES:
- View notes
- Send a note to the bank.

In order to meet all the requirements of our sincere clients ensuring the very best banking services and quality performance we provide the following additional services:

Phone Banking:
- Balance Services
- Money Transfer Services
- Administration Services
- Cheque Book Services
- Card Services
- Bank Facilities

SMS Banking:
Receive up to date personal transaction movements.
Transfer of funds from bank to bank and purchase of ISX stocks online will be implemented once the necessary features have been updated and upgraded.

For any further information and inquiries regarding online banking you are kindly requested to address your questions directly to our Electronic Banking Department
e-bank@warkainvestmentbank.com and they will provide you with their full cooperation.

If you would like to participate in obtaining a visa card through our bank all you need is to provide us with the following information:-

 A requisite from your good self applying for the issuance of a visa card through our bank.
 An authorization letter signed by your good self authorizing Warka Bank for Investment & Finance to make all the financial operations and settlements.
 A copy of your passport or any official document.
 Specimen of your signature duly attested.
 Two small photographs taken recently.

After receiving the above information we will proceed with taking the necessary steps needed for issuing your visa card after confirming that the below information is completed and sufficient :
1. You must have a USD currency account with our bank.
2. We will draw 105% from your account as a guarantee for issuing the visa credit card. i.e. if you wish to have a visa card with USD$1000 we will draw USD $1050 in advance as a guarantee.
3. We have two types of visa credit cards:
- Classic with annual fee of USD $50 its limit is USD $300 – $5000 US$
- Golden with annual fee of USD $100 its limit is USD $5000-$10000.
4. You must completely fill the enclosed application form personally signing it by your good self.
5. You can obtain an additional visa credit card for your family members with the same fees and variable limits.
6. Warka Bank for Investment and Finance will provide the client with a monthly statement containing all the transactions and payments made thru the visa credit card.
7. All postage and phone fees will be charged on the client's account.
For any further inquiries or information please contact our Visa department visa@warkainvestmentbank.com to provide you with their full cooperation.

Best regards,

Mohammad K. Issa
Manager
International Foreign Relations Dept.

-- July 22, 2006 11:23 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,

I'm spellbound of your postings.

I dont have a clue where you want to go in your life, but I must say that you have an ability to write.

You have one of those abilities very very few writers have.

When you read a very good book from a very good writher, suddenly the book you're looking at, dissapears, and you sit in a movie. You dont see the physical book, the physical text, and pages, you see living moving pictures.

Few writer have that, you have that.

I had a friend once with the ability of an exact tone. He could have been anything on the music scene. Last I saw of him, he was a beer drinker, and was turning a stop/slow sign at road construction sites.

Lance, with the ability you have, use it, and you will go far.

I'm very impressed with your writings, please drop in often, share your observations, and please forgive some occasional Americanized dumb question.

I have personally been in over 25 different countries, but mostly western or asian countries, and the arab culture is still a bit of a mystery for me. I've been there but it was a very short stay, and I consider it doesn't count.

I can see you have had a very long timespan over there in different periods, now, have you percieved any actual change in the arab world since your first time around over there.

That is an impression over here, it might that we have gotten favourable news clippings, and at least a change for the better is what we want to belive.

Your description of the day to day life did fully communicate, but looking back since, I believe you mentioned your first time around was 1988, thats 18 years.

I know the homefront has change since then, and I suppose no society stays static.

-- July 22, 2006 11:53 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Outlaw;

I saw that news yesterday you posted.. which stated:

In Rasafah district, a police captain says he and colleagues are contemplating mass resignations in frustration over mistrust from US forces and orders from Iraqi politicians to release known criminals.

I was thinking it was not wise to release known criminals in any country.. ????

There is a lot of hopeless news stories about Iraq lately.. and I was thinking how I could answer in a general way about that when Lance - not this Lance who posted from Iraq.. and super posts they were, too.. appreciate it, Lance.. - the IIF Lance.. he posted a post which said it better than I would have. So I asked his permission to post and he granted it. Here is his post which I liked very much:

Did you hear what Bush told Putin at the G8? Putin had just taken a jab at Iraqi democracy, saying that Russia would form their own democracy not one like Iraqs. He got a few laughs from his puppets, then Bush replied with two words. "Just Wait". Forget the American media people, they have an agenda right or left they are politically transparent. Watch how the world views Iraq. The world views Iraq like a goldmine. Who has ever left a full goldmine? Lance

Sara.

-- July 22, 2006 2:52 PM ∞

---

Jimmy P wrote:

Taxmama, I too believe in Dr. Q. His entire association is both informative and reliable. I and at least a dozen of my pals from work have had numerous dealings with them and love the calls that bring new and current perspective to this life changing endeavor.

If anyone would like a wake-up call on what is behind the Lebanese border battle, check out this site:
www.americancongressfortruth.com

Thank you

-- July 22, 2006 3:55 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Lance:

Your recent posts are exactly the kind of insight and experience that it seems impossible to glean from any media source coming out of Iraq. I found them extremely well written, thought-provoking, informative, poignant and humerous in a ironic way.

This kind of post is priceless and very involving. I agree with Roger, that I can see your text as images.

Please keep them coming.

All the best.

-- July 22, 2006 5:00 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

90% CAN READ THIS WITHOUT PROBLEM.

THE BIRAN CAN RAED BY LOKOGN AT FRIST AND LSAT LTEETR, AND AISCCAOTE THE MAENNIG. MY QUSIOTEN IS WHY IS IT IPMARTONT TO LAREN SEPLLNIG IF YOU UDNRETSNAD AYWANY?

That's way a computer is dumb, and the human mind is in charge.

The outcome of the Dinar train could have been easy if all the variables could be programmed into a "Brainiac" machine, push the button and it would tell exactly when where and how to invest.

The problem is, there is no computer that can fathom the human mind, it's intuition, ability to postulate, and calculate.

Economics, and finances is pretty easy to calculate, as this are abstract figures, machines looove those.

Probably the whole Iraq finacial and economical situation could be fed into a big machine, and the financial measures recomended by this machine given the data at hand, would probably be, not too bad.

Thats where the whole equation ends, we're waiting not on machines, but on humans to get their thumb out of ...you know what, and do something.

So, (have you heard this before).....wait and see.

-- July 22, 2006 9:15 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

After observing for sometime and commenting on occasion. I think one must purchase the amount of Dinar one is most comfortable with and wait to see how the events in Iraq unfold.

I do agree with a previous post postulating a sudden re-evaluation. I do not tend to lean toward an RV where the Iraqi Dinar has it's zeros lopped. I know some of you disagree.

George W. Bush's comment to Putin further bolsters the U.S. unwaivering committed to a democratic Iraq. Though I am not a seer or a prophet, once U.S. reconstruction funding expires this will catalyize the government of Iraq to RV its currency.

I believe the end of reconstruction will mark the time where the Iraqi Dinar will come into its own value; without the necessity of a zero lop.

Once the Dinar opens on the currency markets, its value will continue to rise slowly until it is unit for unit with the other currencies in the area. This all may be my wide eyed optimism, but I can see the rationality of it playing out this way.

If I am right, I better be buying more Dinar as I type this line. Opposing opinions are welcomed

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 22, 2006 11:04 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Good morning all,

I thank you for your kind comments on the previous posts.

But please don’t be deceived into thinking that I have any special knowledge of what is going on over here. Actually your sources may be better than mine as you can get a broader array of information from the MSM and other sources, and probably have more time to investigate. This is one case where I am, in many respects, too close to the problem(s). 99.99999% of what I observe over here has nothing to do with the economics of the country. What I do observe is the end result too the common people, and that is from a stand-off distance due to security concerns. Sorry, but I have no wish to join the men in the Sidewalk Café’s, and become a target. I can only relay what is told to me by the people after they have left the café’s. So much is second hand. But talking with numerous of them you begin to get a fair assessment of what is going on. I hope it also gives you a little local color. Likewise I don’t send these people out to find out what is up with the Dinar. I would love to, but I won’t jeopardize them for information that would increase speculation (on our part), might not be accurate at best, and they might give me information that is “Just to please me”, be far from the truth, and possibly endanger them. So I try not to ask direct questions about their money. Only if they bring it up is it discussed. So, I will pass along the common Iraqi’s view, as best as I can determine.

The IQD “Is” the currency of choice. It is not the U.S. Dollar. Dollars are still horded because they are considered much as Gold is, always solid and tradable, as a hedge against the next disaster. But that is the way it is in almost any third world country. The currency of choice in the street here is the IQD.

The Iraqi’s have no concerns about the IQD being the Bremmer Dinar. It is now “THEIR” Dinar. Much more durable (physically). And stable as it can’t be printed on a Xerox machine. This is why I tend to stay out of the debate on the re-issuing a “NEW” currency. I just don’t see it happening, and the locals would be up in arms. Same applies to the ZERO Lop. They actually laughed at that idea. Took me quite a while to explain what that meant. But of course this will be a political and financial decision made by the government in coordination with the IMF and World Bank, and who ever said that they would do the right thing.

So that is the extent of my “Local” knowledge on the IQD. Not much when you look at it, and definitely not something to make you go out and invest in more.

The good news from my observations is, that the Iraqi’s are better off then they were under Saddam. They will even tell you so, on a one on one basis. They have hope now, but it is overlaid with the fear that it won’t continue. Most of them want the militias’ to go away and let them do business. They also really resent the foreign Arabs telling them what to do and think i.e. the Mosque’s, Iran, and insurgents. They were never a very religious people to begin with, and this whole sectarian thing has them worried and scared, because the government as of yet is not strong enough to impact their lives directly, and the local Sheik/Iman/Mulla does. Until the government can affect the Sheik/Iman/Mulla, the locals will continue to go with the safest wind.

All, please remember that what I hear is not necessarily the truth. The Iraqi’s that I deal with, will sometimes only tell me what they think I want to hear, and not necessarily the reality of the situation. But because I deal with numerous, and get pretty much the same feedback from all, it appears to me to have the ring of truth. Much of that is being able to “Read” between the lines of what is being said. But that is normal operating procedures for any dealing with any Arab. That is just the way they work, and another of the cultural differences. They very seldom, will directly tell you what you want to know.

-- July 23, 2006 1:07 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Roger,

Now, good afternoon to all. You all need to be on my time frame, it seems that I am talking to myself because of the Time Zone thing.

You asked how much has changed in the years of my involvement over here in the Middle East. So here are probably too many points to ponder:

1. What is truly sad, is the loss that is felt throughout the entire ME of security. Blame it on the radicalism of a few in Islam that have made their religion a religion of hate. The common people hate them, but also fear them. Everyone fears the person or group that has the ability to harm their family.
2. It used to be that I could walk and go anywhere in the ME back in the late ’70s and ‘80’s with no fear. Now I wouldn’t be caught dead in many, if not all of those places. Yes the fear is palatable.
3. In conjunction with the above you see a more stratified and class based society. The have’s and the have not’s. The gap has really widened. More poor or lower middle class, but now a very larger group of the super wealthy. Not much in between. Sorry to say that it is beginning to look like the pre-Civil War southern society. Owners and slaves. In many cases the slaves are not of the wealthier’s tribe, ethnicity, or country. Very racial. Didn’t used to be this way. But I think ultimately this will go away. We just have the beginnings of a very affluent bunch at the top who consider themselves Royalty whether they are or not, and thus look down on the little people.
4. Kuwait is a good example of a slave state. If you are a Kuwaiti, then you are rich, even by our standards. The Government actually pays you to be a Kuwaiti, and to make even more little Kuwaiti’s. Reverse taxes, in that the government pays them (from oil money), and not what we do back in the states. If you are not a Kuwaiti then you are nothing. If you are of say Indian or Pakistani descent and were born in Kuwait, you are still not a Kuwaiti. Even if you spend your whole life there you won’t, and can never be a Kuwaiti. If you are brought in as a guest worker you must pay a Kuwaiti to sponsor you, and at age 21 if born in Kuwait, but not of Kuwaiti parents, you must start paying a sponsor whether you have a job or not. If not, and you can’t pay then you will be deported back to your home country that you have probably never seen or been to. This sponsorship varies. In most cases you will actually be a slave, and at the end of your contract, end up owing the sponsor more then you were paid, by whoever hired you. Example: A domestic hired for a year contract may be offered $2000.00 a year. (Far more then they would have made in their home country, and yes that is only $2,000.00 not $20,000.00). Now the sponsorship fee would probably be $1,500.00 for the year that you pay to a Kuwaiti Sponsor. So out of the $500.00 that they may see, they must provide much of their own upkeep. I will mention that most of the domestics are from the Philippines, and at least 3-5 times a year one of them is killed by their master for failure to provide for his sexual pleasure. And these are just the most obvious that make the news in Kuwait. (FYI the Master’s usually only pay a fine for killing one of the Domestics. Allah forbid that a True Kuwaiti spend time in jail.) Pay is better for the higher trained people (computer programmers, electricians, etc…), who actually get a bigger percentage to send back home to support their families. I actually have many friends that are Kuwaiti’s, it is just sometimes hard to digest their culture. But I keep reminding myself that it is their culture and not mine, and they see no problem with it.
5. There are more of the poor. This is a fact supported by numerous surveys and studies done internationally. And like any commodity the more there is of it, the less you have to pay for it. So wages have become slave-like, where they are only working to survive and eat. They are never given enough to save or better themselves with. And if they quit, there is always a long line of other even more desperate people to take their place.
6. Education. Yes that again. Read my earlier posts to see why this is important. But without State Sponsored education, and it being mandatory, none of the above will ever go away. They need to get out of the religious schools where the Jihadism is taught.

What I feel is sorrow for the common Arab as they have become marginalized. Things have not improved, but gotten worse under the Saddam’s of the ME. In some cases the ones we call our friends; Qatar, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, and yes even the Kuwaiti’s have improved the lot of the poor. But there are many others that have only made it worse and are actually exporting the Jihadism along with their own poor to other countries. No need to tell you which ones they are. Iraq is a totally different story. The invasion has turned them into something else, but I’m not sure they know what it is, or where it is going. We will just have to wait and see. But I have hope, and so do the majority of them. This is what makes this whole situation so interesting despite the blood that flows, and the pain of finding out where they are going. To my mind, this would be like watching the American Revolutionary War as an outsider, and seeing where the experiment goes. Let us hope that this experiment turns out as well as that one did.

-- July 23, 2006 6:22 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Lance;

That was EXCELLENT posting and gave much food for thought. Thank you.

Sara.

-- July 23, 2006 12:46 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Lance....

Your thoughts and understanding of the area is appreciated by all. Those of us who have spent some time in the ME can truly relate to it.
I laughed out loud as you told how they create a lie to avoid confrontation with the truth...that's true with a lot of them. Take care.

-- July 23, 2006 2:14 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Lance:

Though I have not served in the military, I appreciate you giving members of this forum a breif insight into the lives of the Iraqi people.

Governments and regimes come and go, but when the Iraqi people finally rise up against the Islamic extremists only then can Iraq form a true democracy. A government for the people and by the people (sound familiar).

Our American Revolution stands as the standard for the rest of the world. It accompished what the French Revolution could not, which was equality and freedom for all the people. The world community will have to wait and see if Iraq can rise from their own internal secterian violence and enter the world community with those vast Oil and Gas reserves.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 23, 2006 2:41 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Lance;

Your description of your dealings with the Iraqi's, caused me to flash back to my own dealings with the LN's. (Local Nationals) and I started laughing. Very enjoyable and accurate!

Thank you for reminding me that not all of my experiences in Iraq were bad. I remember the serious looks on their faces while their telling you these wild stories... Classic!

After a while you understand that these people really aren't stupid, but only that they have never been taught to do the simplest of things... things that one takes for granted as being learned by everyone in life... NOT SO! This brings a sense of sorrow towards these people and seeing this first hand, makes one really appreciate their own roots back home in America.

Thanks again... Be safe my friend.

Outlaw

-- July 23, 2006 2:43 PM ∞

---

JJ wrote:

when the old swiss dinar with sadam's face on it was exchanged, the locals got 150 NID per old dinar, so a revalue with a zero lop really wont hurt people who had large amounts of old dinars

-- July 23, 2006 5:03 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,

Again, you've got my total surrender. Seems like you have a complete approval from the board, and I'm one of your fans.

I'm seriously proposing that you should write a book. Perhaps you already have had that in your mind. All the ingrediences are there.

You have the gift of writing that few have, you are there seing hearing things others dont see, and perhaps some have it in front of their eyes but dont percieve it, like you do.

You have have spend a long time there, and have a long and indepth understanding of things.

If you're going to write a book or not, I dont know, perhaps you have another calling.

You certainly have the ability to write one.

May I suggest, save old letters, call friends and ask for copies of old mail, start getting your photos together, diaries, logs and other records.

That will be an excellent base for either your documentary book, memoir book fact book, or whatever gendre you want to write it in.

You are a very special person, and modesty aside, I think you have a clue about it too.

I just hope your abilities will not be waisted writing endless goverment reports , filed and recorded, no one will read.

Or you go back to your civilian life, and end up as a DOT officer at a truckscale, giving tickets to trucks without mudflaps.

All civilizations rests on very few shoulders, and is carried by those that took the step.

Perhaps it was ment that you should be there, and write about it.

I have never seen this kind of reporting before, FOX, CNN, CNBC, to name a few, is doing 15 seconds bits.

They leave a puzzle, but no one have reported from the Middle East a such complete picture like you are doing, with one train of thoughts connected with the next.

Maybe the world needs a book from your perspective.

Maybe that book will be the one that made the difference you're yearning for in the Middle East.

With the right marketing, it might be a best seller here as well as over there.

Lance, you do what you want to do with your life, I'm just wishing here.

At least promise me this, kick it in your head a couple of weeks or so, and dont make an instant decision about it.

-- July 23, 2006 5:45 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Lance, I have to say I agree with Roger wholeheartedly on this one. You certainly have the ability and no doubt the insight and information that would make for a very compelling read.

I think with so much interest directed towards the Middle East now and almost certainly for a long time to come, this could be your own personal ticket on the Dollar Train! There is definetly a gap in the market for this. I'm not a big reader, but I would want to read a book filled with stories like your posts above, about Iraqi / Middle Eastern culture from an American's perspective.

Of course, you need to want to write it, but if you need any more encouragement here, just ask.

-- July 23, 2006 6:20 PM ∞

---

sjjjjj wrote:

braking news just coming

-- July 23, 2006 11:35 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

TB Family,

Enough already. I write to inform, because I like to. But even more important, I look at myself as an observer of History. Which is one of my passions. I am mainly just watching, and write only for myself, a few friends, and family. I tried writing professionally but way to opinionated to succeed. I also found it a very painful experience which I did not enjoy. I find writing opinion pieces fun and would sell my children if I could be George Will or Art Buchwald.

To restate, I read TB for years before I made my first posting about a month ago. I am not a writer as such, I leave that to the professionals like Sara. Her thoughtful and insightful posts are the ones that leave me breathless. It was a dark day for TB when she went on sabbatical from this site. She fought the battle against the immature that were posting, and I would assume felt that it was a lost cause for a while. One of my happiest days was seeing her return. Tentative at first, but soon returning to her position of the un-official moderator and guide, keeping all in line. Thank you Mother Sara. Without you this would be dull indeed.

If you take the time to read back over the years that this Blog has been active, you will see how it has matured. Not just a place for Dinar speculation and rumor, but a place for discussion stretching from God to Toilet Humor. This is why I think of you all, as extended family and friends. This is also why I will not post on the other Dinar Sites. I read them, but find them juvenile a majority of the time, with guesses, speculation, lying insider information, and ugly personal assaults. I can also tell when you all are posting on the other sites. Your individual styles stand out against the hordes, not to mention Avatars with similar names. Or at least its fun to guess. It is just that I refuse to get into that all that. I look at TB and you all, as my relaxation, and a mind expanding experience. Working 12/7 takes a toll and TB gives me a chance to relax, ponder, and laugh.

Myself; I am one of the evil contractors over here. I leave it for you to guess who writes the Paycheck, or at least writes it to my wife. 22 years active duty in the military, and not going to say what branch. In Baghdad before the ’91 war, and then back again for that whole shooting match. Also spent much time in other locations throughout the ME in the late ‘70’s and most of the ‘80’s. Retired many years ago, and successfully ran my own company then sold it. Bored to death after that, so took a position back over here, because I love this part of the world. Been around the world 7 complete times, and too many almost made it’s to mention. High School Drop-Out, but have 2 Bachelors Degrees concerning absolutely nothing I do now. Having one of the best times of my life doing what I do here.

Ok, that is enough about me. I will continue to post Local Color as I get a chance, but will always try to make it neutral, so as not to increase speculation or make you think I have insider information (which I don’t).

Now let’s get back to the Dinar discussion. RV when and how much? Come on folks!!!!

P.S. If I wanted to commit suicide again and try writing another book, my first choice would be one about this Blog. Now that would be worth it!!!!!!!!!!

Lance

-- July 23, 2006 11:43 PM ∞

---

dsfsdf wrote:

again this is breaking new

-- July 23, 2006 11:48 PM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

What breaking news? Post it already, LOL

-- July 24, 2006 12:49 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

I have and am checking all news sources, Bob.. I have not seen anything noteworthy that is new.. at least concerning the Dinar investment. Perhaps it is news related to the greater Middle East and the conflict with Lebanon which this poster was speaking of as "breaking new"?

So far as I can tell, PM Maliki is currently in the UK for talks..

Iraq PM in UK for talks
Published on: Monday, 24th July, 2006

Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki arrived in London yesterday ahead of talks with Britain’s Tony Blair aimed at reviewing progress made by Iraq’s national government. The two men are due to hold discussions today and will examine plans to continue the handover of southern Iraqi provinces from coalition forces to local authorities, Blair’s Downing Street office said. Al-Maliki is also expected to comment on how the current conflict between Israel and Lebanon has affected his country.

http://www.7days.ae/2006/07/24/iraq-pm-in-uk-for-talks.html

-- July 24, 2006 1:45 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,
Sorry you have keept us so spellbound for a while, I have to rattle my brain to think about Dinars.

Dinars...Eh...yes Dinars are good.

-- July 24, 2006 1:49 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Iraqi PM makes first visit to Britain for Blair talks
(AFP)
24 July 2006

LONDON - Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki was to hold talks Monday with British counterpart Tony Blair, on his first official visit..

His office said he was accompanied by Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari and Oil Minister Hussein al-Chaharistani and would discuss ”the two essential dossiers of security and economic development” in London and Washington.

The Times newspaper said Monday there were signs of progress in Iraq...

The daily said it expected specific details...

“Lebanon commands the headlines but it is in Iraq that the future of the Middle East hangs in the balance.”

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/theworld/2006/July/theworld_July596.xml§ion=theworld

-- July 24, 2006 2:06 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Roger,

Stay off of the Prozac. Or either take more, if you are having that much of a problem remembering DINAR. I know the feeling. I used to have a drug problem too. Used to shoot up marijuana seeds. But it gave me lumpy veins. Had to quit when they started to germinate. :):)

-- July 24, 2006 9:10 AM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Hello all.. I just pulled this off a conversation on aboutdinar.com It was fun to read..

What??? No one wants to play??? It's really quite easy. Read the information about the various neighboring countries. Then simply "slot" Iraq in the spot where you think their currency value will eventually reach. Here's where I think it will end up within a year:

Libya: 1 (LYD) = .73 USD
Land Mass: 1,759,540 sq km
Population: 5,765,563
Government Type: Military Dictatorship (stable)
GDP: $37.48 billion (2006 est.)
Assets: 1/4 GDP is from oil. Petroleum, iron and steel, food processing, textiles, handicrafts, cement, wheat, barley, olives, dates, citrus, vegetables, peanuts, soybeans; cattle. 3,900 oil reserves in million tonnes.
OPEC Member

Iraq: 1 IDinar = .0007 USD {.32 USD Projected}
Land Mass: 437,072 sq km
Population: 26,074,906
Government Type: The Iraqi Interim Government (IG) was appointed on 1 June 2004. Interim Government Constitutional Parlimentary (Federated) Democracy. (semi-stable)
GDP: In 2004, the Iraqi GDP was $25.5 billion. 2005 projections were $29.3 billion. $54.4 billion gdp (2006 est.)
Assets: Petroleum, natural gas, phosphates, sulfur, large agricultural potentia (wheat, barley, rice, vegetables, dates, cotton; cattle, sheep, poultry). 13,400 oil reserves in million tonnes. 10% of potential reserves have been explored. IMF projections 2 to 2.5 mbpd for 2005-2006.
Before U.S.-led forces defeated Saddam Hussein, whose government also heavily subsidized gas prices for consumers, average annual oil production in Iraq was 2.5 million barrels per day. Iraq has large water sources many were dammed up and drained by the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein.
OPEC Member

Saudi Arabia: 1 SARiyal = .27 USD
Land Mass: 1,960,582 sq km
Population: 26,417,599
Government Type: Monarchy (stable)
GDP: $310.2 billion (2006 est.)
Assets: 35,700 oil reserves in million tonnes. Natural resources include petroleum, natural gas, iron ore, gold, copper. Severe lack of fresh water resources an extremely arid environment.
OPEC Member

Qatar: 1 QRiyal = .27 USD
Land Mass: 11,437 sq km
Population: 863,051
Government Type: Traditional Monarchy (stable)
GDP: $19.49 billion (2006 est.)
Assets: Significant Oil and Natural Gas reserves third largest in the World. Limited natural fresh water resources are increasing dependence on large-scale desalination facilities.
OPEC Member

-- July 24, 2006 10:13 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Iraqi PM says foreign troops will not take years to leave Iraq
Posted: 24 July 2006 1938 hrs

LONDON : Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, on his first official visit to London, has said his fledgling government was making strides toward ending violence in Iraq and enabling foreign troops to leave.

Speaking on BBC Radio before meeting British Prime Minister Tony Blair later Monday, Maliki added that his government was grappling with both a sectarian conflict and violent crime, but that Iraq would not descend into civil war.

He also confirmed a report published last week by the UN Assistance Mission for Iraq which said a total of 5,818 civilians were killed and at least 5,762 wounded during May and June this year.

He added that Iraq's elected political leaders were "working on putting an end to the sectarian issue and there is continuing efforts in that direction. The civil war will not happen to Iraq."

Asked how long foreign troops were needed in Iraq, he replied: "Definitely not decades, not even years.

Iraqi troops took over control of security from British and Australian forces in the southern province of Muthanna on July 13.

Maliki hailed the transfer as a "historic milestone" in an opinion article published Monday by the Wall Street Journal.

"Iraqi forces there are now not simply operating independently, but have replaced 1,400 coalition troops. This is a crucial first step in a sequence of events ultimately leading to Iraq standing entirely on its own."

"As the first of 18 provinces to transfer security responsibility, al-Muthanna is a test. And it is one with real potential to succeed," he wrote.

Maliki said several other provinces were close to achieving required security levels. But he cautioned that current estimates of transferring security responsibility in half of Iraq's provinces by the end of 2006 would depend on achieving the conditions for transition.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/220934/1/.html

-- July 24, 2006 11:45 AM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Iraqi Reconciliation Panel Optimistic

By Andy Mosher
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, July 23, 2006; Page A15

BAGHDAD, July 22 -- Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's program to bridge the widening divisions among Iraq's religious, ethnic and political factions took its first concrete step forward Saturday. A high-level reconciliation panel held its first meeting, with its members voicing optimism about the task ahead while offering fresh evidence of how difficult it could prove.

The Supreme Committee for Reconciliation and National Dialogue, intended to bring together representatives from the widest possible cross-section of Iraqi society, met inside Baghdad's fortified Green Zone. Afterward Maliki, President Jalal Talabani and Parliamentary Speaker Mahmoud al-Mashhadani met with reporters, and the prime minister proclaimed that "coordination and dialogue based on democracy had found their way to the light."Iraqi Speaker Mahmoud al-Mashhadani, left, with President Jalal Talabani.

The panel's first session brought no new pronouncements; rather, Maliki said, its role would be one of gradual "initiative launching," with practical measures and details to be worked out over time.

Maliki, who heads a ruling coalition of Shiite religious parties, stressed that the committee was open to all Iraqis and said he had been in contact with some of the country's armed factions about their participation. However, as with his initial announcement of a 24-point reconciliation plan one month ago, differences emerged over which armed groups might be excluded.

Maliki stopped short of including groups that had killed Iraqis or Americans, saying "all those whose hands were tainted with blood should be brought to justice." But Mashhadani, who represents a Sunni Arab coalition, said "anyone can join the reconciliation process."

"If we punish a person who killed an American soldier, who's considered an occupier, we also should punish the American soldier who killed an Iraqi who fought against occupation," Mashhadani said, adding: "If a person killed an American to defend his country, in another country they would build a statue of him."

The U.S. military reported that two American soldiers were killed Saturday. One died in eastern Baghdad when his vehicle was hit by a roadside bomb; the other was a victim of small-arms fire south of Baghdad. Neither was identified.

The divisions among Iraqi factions were likewise visible on the streets of Baghdad. In the Furat district of western Baghdad, gunmen in two cars without license plates attacked a group of Shiite construction workers, killing seven, according to Lt. Col. Salman Abood of the Interior Ministry. Later, a mortar attack in Amil, a mostly Sunni area, killed five people, news services reported.

U.S. troops clashed with Shiite militiamen in Musayyib, about 40 miles south of Baghdad, in a three-hour gunbattle in which 15 gunmen and an Iraqi soldier were killed, U.S. officials and Iraqis said, the Associated Press reported. Also, in the western province of Anbar, 10 Iraqi soldiers traveling in a convoy near the village of Karmah were killed by a roadside bomb, according to the AP.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/22/AR2006072200746.html

-- July 24, 2006 12:25 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Interesting post Taylor.

I'm not asking you to find out, but it would be nice to know the amount of currency in circulation in each of these middle eastern countries.

In Iraq, the magic number is around 6 trillion dinars, as I think you found out (if I recall correctly)

Maybe I'll look into that as well. I think that also has a significant bearing on the potential rise of the Dinar. Remember that it was largely through Saddam printing vast quantities of additional (old) notes around 1991, following the Kuwaiti incurrsion, that the old (and hence current) notes were massively devalued. As I understand it, the number of dinars in circulation has actually increased since then.

-- July 24, 2006 1:40 PM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

Thank you for your kind words, Seeker.

My Satellite feed that powers my computer at our 2nd home was out for 3-1/2 days.
No Truck and Barter or any computer information - almost went into withdrawal.

Just got caught up, back in the office.
Yes, Lance, stay on the system here. Your wisdom, insight and information is badly needed.

This site is an excellent learning tool.

Dr. Quddouri does not beleive there will be a zero lop. He has stated that more than once. fyi

-- July 24, 2006 2:38 PM ∞

---

outlaw wrote:

Bush, Maliki to consider adding troops in Baghdad
Reuters - 1 hour, 38 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - President George W. Bush and Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki will consider adding more U.S. and Iraqi troops in Baghdad and other ways to counter surging violence when they meet at the White House on Tuesday. Bush and Maliki will consider new approaches to quelling the bloodshed in and around the capital after Maliki's security plan for the region proved a disastrous failure.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060724/ts_nm/bush_iraq_dc_2

-- July 24, 2006 2:48 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

The Insurgency
Wednesday, 21 June 2006

The Insurgency:

The insurgency in Iraq consists of myriad anti-Iraqi Forces and their supporters who are engaged in guerilla warfare against Coalition and Iraqi security forces and use terrorism to strike fear in the Iraqi populace. Their tactics include, but are not limited to, suicide bombings, improvised explosive device attacks, kidnapping, rudimentary sniper techniques, mortar attack, rocket attacks, and murder.

Insurgent activity is centered in the Sunni-dominated parts of Iraq, primarily the areas to the northwest of Baghdad and between the cities of Tikrit, Ramadi, Samarra and Fallujah. Sunni Arabs, including Ba’athist and former elements of Saddam Hussein’s regime, Saddamists, sometimes collaborate with international Sunni Arab terrorist networks, providing funds and guidance across family, tribal, religious and peer group lines. The foreigners include jihadists led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi’s terrorist network, al-Qaida in Iraq, AQI. Together, these groups work to perpetuate a reign of terror designed to breed havoc in Iraq.

Some of these anti-government elements are clearly groups drawn from the former regime, the Ba’th Party, the paramilitary Fedayeen, and the Republican Guard. Some are anti-Saddam nationalist groups with no desire to see Saddam restored but resentful of U.S. and Western presence; others are Islamist groups, some members of which have been trained overseas or are foreign nationals, the latter including Syrians, Saudis, Yemenis, and Sudanese. Some activities have been the work of criminals or criminal organizations, large numbers of criminals being released at the end of the war and some certainly hiring themselves out for attacks on Coalition forces.

Other Iraqi jihadists groups are active, notably Ansar al-Sunnah, which operates primarily in Kurdish-dominated northern Iraq. The foreign jihadists enter Iraq from Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, and Iran.

Most of the victims of jihadists suicide bombings have been civilians, innocent bystanders. This has been especially true since Coalition and Iraqi security forces developed tactics and deployed better equipment to protect themselves from the attacks. Among the Sunnis, a variety of groups have been identified. They are united only in the sense of having what have been called “negative” goals in opposition to U.S. presence; in seeking some return to the former status quo in which the Sunni minority have exercised power since the Ottoman period.

There are also armed militias attached to the two main Shiite political parties, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq and al-Dawa, and there is clearly potential for Shiite participation in violence. The pattern of Iraqi activity thus far looks remarkably similar to that in Palestine with roadside bombs, which have also been used by Hezbollah in Lebanon, and other so-called improvised explosive devices; ambushes of soft-skinned vehicles; opportunistic rocket-propelled grenade and shooting attacks on military personnel; attacks on civilian members of the Coalition authorities and foreign personnel working in some way for the Coalition; attacks on Iraqi “collaborators,” most recently police and army recruits’ and attacks on economic targets such as power stations, oil installations, and pipelines. There has also been an increase in the number of attacks upon “soft” targets, principally civilian gatherings.

Terrorist Organizations

al-Qaida Organization in the Land of the Two Rivers
Mujahideen Shura Council
Ansar al-Sunnah
Islamic Army in Iraq
Although some named terrorist groups operate in Iraq, these categories are constantly shifting. The following is a brief introduction to some of the most well-known terrorist groups in Iraq.

For remainder of article click: http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=729&Itemid=45

-- July 24, 2006 2:56 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Very interesting Freedom Facts about Iraq:

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=5&id=17&Itemid=32

-- July 24, 2006 3:01 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

I found this and it was very thought provoking... Check out this site and look at Iraq's currency!

http://www.tradearabia.com/tatools/Worldsum.asp#36

-- July 24, 2006 3:10 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Okie;

You know your post:
http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#122329

It said in that article, quote:

"Iraqi sources are now openly saying that Washington has given the Baghdad government a SIX-MONTH period to end violence and safeguard stability in the country. Otherwise, a national salvation government will be set up and this will mean toppling Al-Maliki's government, dissolving the Council of Representatives, and placing the country under a strong military leadership that is not affiliated to any political party or forces that will prepare the country, during an interim period which might last two years, for new general elections while placing the security forces with their various police and army groupings under the command of the US forces that will be responsible for all their field movements and activities."

====end of quote====

What I am wondering is.. if things are going so very poorly as the MSM seems to project.. so that the country is in danger of breaking up.. will the US just shorten this from SIX MONTHS down the road.. to NOW.. and take over the Iraqi government?? I mean.. if it is really is that bad, it seems to me they should just get the job done properly, even if it means taking control a bit ahead of this timeline. Surely the stability of the country, even if under a US military regime, is preferrable to what these bleak reports are saying?

Perhaps I am speaking prematurely, as Maliki and here, Talabani are saying they should settle their "differences" not that the country is on the edge of breakup and Civil War...

===

People fed up, stop complaining, solve your problems, Talabani tells politicians

BAGHDAD, July 24 (KUNA) -- President Jalal Talabani called on all parties and politicians on Monday to stop releasing their differences through the media and attempt bridging them behind closed doors.

In a statement released here today he said that the "steadfast people are already fed up of of our differences made public by the media, while they stand in courage against the booby trapped cars, explosive devices, coward assassinations or any other means followed by the takfiris, Saddamists and criminal gangs." He said as any world democratic state has differences but the Iraqi "parties should turn these differences into a source of force not weakness." Concluding he appealed to all parties and political powers to be aware of this critical phase and challenges to the Iraqi democratic process.

http://www.kuna.net.kw/home/Story.aspx?Language=en&DSNO=889888

If these negative media reports are the reality and the Iraqis are incapable of governing themselves and simply cannot get along.. if it really is hopeless.. surely the SIX MONTH period should be shortened for the good of the country and the US should take over and set up a strong military leadership over Iraq? If that is the only way to restore control.. if the MSM reports of it being out of control are correct.. then surely that is what should happen?

Sara.

-- July 24, 2006 3:41 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Iraqi Shi'ite militia ready to join fight
By Sharon Behn
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
July 24, 2006

A senior member of Muqtada al-Sadr's Iraqi Shi'ite militia, the Mahdi Army, says the group is forming a squadron of up to 1,500 elite fighters to go to Lebanon.

Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies said that the Mahdi militia's claim to be sending a force to Lebanon could be exaggerated, but that Sheik al-Sadr stood to gain a lot by sending volunteers to help Hezbollah.

"He shows he is a fighter for the Arab cause at a time when the Iraqi government cannot, which gives him support at the local level in Iraq and makes him into a regional rather than a local figure, even if it isn't real," he said.

"He gains power and status as a person seen as willing to take such risks," Mr. Cordesman said.

Mr. Mujtaba said the Mahdi militia was figuring out how to get its fighters to Lebanon without the help of the Iraqi government.

"People have volunteered ... but as this is not the government, we cannot use planes. We need to go by land," he said.

The most direct land route would be across Iraq's western Anbar province to Jordan or Syria. Because of border restrictions, Jordan would be an unlikely crossing point, Iraqis said. Syria is an important backer of Hezbollah but may not want to be seen as helping Mahdi militia fighters reach Lebanon.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20060724-122256-7766r.htm

-- July 24, 2006 4:55 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,
No no no you got it completely wrong, it's BUGSPRAY.

Admittedly, it gives you a cough, but it's easily smothed over with an after spray of break liner cleaning spray.

Outlaw,

You've given us a lot of goodies lately, thanks.

Sara,

Your last posting, will give the interesting possibility of people otherwise shooting and bombing in Iraq, would leave and be taken care of by the Iraelis.

They die here or they die there, for the score it's the same difference, but it all come down to the fact that they dont have to die just because they are ignorant and have Sad'r megaphone voice in their ears all day long.

Still I dont have a clue why this Sad'r guy is running around, free as a bird, instigating and conspiring wherever he goes.

He is personally a murdersuspect, and as such should be sitting in jail awaiting trial.

The only reason I see is fear, fear of more violence if they take him in, fear of upproar, fear of this, fear of that...

Evidently if you do a crime, it will not neccessarily be a consequense, but other factors will be weighed in.

This just shows to what extent control is asserted.

Over here, if you do this, that will happen.

That function is very much compromized over there.

What the Iraqis are missing, is a leader figure.

Unfortunately those are very far and few inbetween. In our own history I think we can all agree on about three "great" presidents. Washington Lincoln, and Roosevelt, rest is on a sliding scale.

India with Ghandi, Brittain, with Winston Churchil, after that I'm stumbling to find more, there are big ones that also were bad, Hitler Stalin, Mao, Napoleon and a few more, but they brought destruction.

Great leaders are so hard to find, but imagine one of historys great one would pop up in Iraq right now, and make the Iraq people hold hands, singing "we are the world" and "Kumba ya my lord".

At least I can wish for it, ok.

-- July 24, 2006 5:58 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Gang... Here is a site that has everything you wanted to know about Iraq... but were afraid to ask!!

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=8

-- July 24, 2006 6:18 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

By reading the daily agenda on Central Bank of Iraq's mainsite, it seems to me they're also in a waiting mode.

Issues of the day is to replace watercoolers, get spare parts for their elevators, and buy anti-virus for their computers.

Thats their "announcements" of the day, seems like another day at the office.

-- July 24, 2006 6:19 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Sara & Outlaw…….

Sara…. Regarding your previous post on the 6 month deadline….

I think the following post by Outlaw is a good summary of the situation in Baghdad. Fact is, most of the country is making very positive progress, but Baghdad is not. This creates an opening for the liberal press (AKA: I don’t like Bush, our Government or our Military) to amplify the bad news totally out of proportion. I think most people accept the fact that the armed militia groups and other gangs are responsible for the chaos in Baghdad.
Even though Maliki has vowed to disarm the militia and put them out of business he has not been able to do it. Whether it’s lack of will or manpower, he has not applied his “Iron fist” to the likes of “Fat Boy” Al-Sadr and his group of thugs. It’s very difficult for one Muslim to attack another Muslim of the same sect, so it’s a tough situation for him.
It’s understood this problem will be a hot subject between Bush and Maliki during their visit and I believe a solution will be found. I think the US will offer Maliki all the help he requests and also a very politically worded statement that results are expected, or else.
Maliki is a very strong and able leader for Iraq so I believe he will take the high road in this situation and put the Militias down.

outlaw wrote:
Bush, Maliki to consider adding troops in Baghdad
Reuters - 1 hour, 38 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - President George W. Bush and Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki will consider adding more U.S. and Iraqi troops in Baghdad and other ways to counter surging violence when they meet at the White House on Tuesday. Bush and Maliki will consider new approaches to quelling the bloodshed in and around the capital after Maliki's security plan for the region proved a disastrous failure.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060724/ts_nm/bush_iraq_dc_2
-- July 24, 2006 02:48 PM ∞

-- July 24, 2006 6:53 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Roger.....

I've noticed some things about your posts. When you first started posting here you would just open your creative mind and let your thoughts flow onto the page.

But.....after you announced your purchase of more Dinar..your posts took on a more serious approach and research was injected into your thoughts.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but at least you could confess to the group that you are a born again "dinarholic"...go ahead and say it...the truth will set you free.....

On a more serious note. I have a feeling you've traveled more of our highways and byways than many of us. The question is....what is the latest state of art,hardware and software, related to tapping into the WIFI hotspots around the country.
Your comments would be appreciated.

-- July 24, 2006 7:20 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Okie,

You might be right, I'm right now sitting on 30 mil Dinars, and when coming into a site, not knowing where it leads, where the mainstream is, where the discussion goes, I took on a more "float " attitude.

I am very intersted, trying to follow the thing as close as I can, and also doing research, but it seems that there are other memebers on this board that are much better in the research department than I am.

Sometimes I have a few hours, and sometimes I have less, but as a confessed Dinaroholic, I check in. I'm a very communicative person in life, (sometimes to the point of , they asking me to shut up), and when at the site, sometimes it's just a blabber posting to pose oneself as existing or something.

I'm sure Freud can explain it better.

Perhaps it's the creativieness in the whole thing. It's honestly not much to create about it, we're all waiting, and like true gambloholics, sitting in the wee hours dealing cards, just to keep an endless game going, it's hard to be Shakespeare on every posting.

It's the booooring wait, that makes us all fill in with whatever we can create.

Sometimes , I have noticed this in most all of us, when we have nothing more to say, we seem to be able to create a debate over one issue to the point it's debated to death, and when it's done , someone comes in with a new angle on the same issue.

This will immediately be a relief as now we can discuss this issue over one more time.

There really isn't much to do, other than wait and see.

That's the problem here.

We could all do one posting, where we say, wait and see, and then switch off the pjuter, and not return to the site in a few months or so.

Same difference, but I think we all choose to be here, perhaps as an extended Dinar family of some sort, and post what we feel for the day.

But Ok Okie, I can take you up on a challenge and try to come up with some Einstein stuff or something, just give me some time and let me brew on something.

(Talking about being bored, see how much I managed to create on this topic already)

WiFi, stuff, it's hardware more than anything else, no special program needed, except if you need more security. The Achilles heel in this stuff is the ease with, that a bad guy could pick up your signal, so when I need to do anything with bank accounts, social sec # , or CC cards, I make sure there is a wire there, and that my lap top is not connected via airwaves.

The basic set up is very simple, most laptops today, have a ...uh...ok, walkie talkie in them.

Truckstops, Hotels, and many restareas have a hotspot, it's basically a continouos transmitting and recieving base station that will reach between 150 to 500 feet.

I have a "sniffer" a small device you can buy at Office depot or similar stores, it's so small it's like a key chain device. You press a button and a series of diodes will light up telling you if you have signal, and if you have, it will tell the strenght of it. Cost less than 20 bucks.I've got mine hanging and dangling from my CB, and can give it a "sniff" fast and easy to check for signal.

Just because you get a signal, doesnt mean you can get in, many places charge for the use of the Hot Spot. Except for Aunt Ednas and Oncle Ernies truckstop most chain type truckstops have hotspots, and charge for it too.

Many Cafee's have hot spots, and one of the best ways to fast get a signal that is free, is to park close to hotels or motels.

I've been in industrial places where I dont have a clue who's sender it is, and got onto the net.

For somewhat older laptops, ( you know those old obsolete Dinosaurs they sold three weeks ago), you can buy a card to slip into the laptop, and that device is the "walkie talkie" unit.

If you crossbreed a centipede and a parrot, you must get a walkie talkie.

-- July 24, 2006 8:45 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Coalition, Iraqi raids net terrorists
Saturday, 22 July 2006

Story courtesy of American Forces News Service

WASHINGTON – Iraqi and Coalition Soldiers launched a new operation near Kirkuk, in northern Iraq, on Thursday, and Iraqi Soldiers captured more than a dozen terrorists near Baghdad during a seperate operation.

Iraqi Soldiers from the 4th Iraqi Army Division, and U.S. Soldiers with the 101st Airborne Division, kicked off combined Operation Gaugamela (gaw'guh-MEE-luh). The forces simultaneously surrounded and entered the cities of Hawija and Riyadh, just west of Kirkuk, searching for suspected al-Qaida terrorists.

The operation, requested by local Sunni Arab leaders, follows a series of terror attacks in the area and comes amid reports of al-Qaida terror cells in the area, U.S. officials said.

In the past five weeks, 31 Iraqi Soldiers have been killed in terrorist attacks in the region, and six policemen were killed in Hawija earlier this week. U.S. and Iraqi troops surrounded Hawija, blocking off escape routes, as another combined force air assaulted into a market in the heart of the city. The units cordoned off the area and searched for terrorist forces. Meanwhile, Iraqi and Coalition forces surrounded the village of Riyadh, about 10 miles away, and searched that city. Operation Gaugamela is named for the battle in which Alexander drove the Persian army from the city of Gaugamela, U.S. officials said.

In other news, Iraqi Soldiers from the 6th Iraqi Army Division found a newly emplaced improvised explosive device early Wednesday while conducting a patrol south of Baghdad. While the troops were investigating the device, terrorists hiding in the area attacked them with small-arms fire. When the Soldiers returned fire, the terrorists fled the area. The Iraqi Soldiers pursued them and caught 12 suspects. The soldiers traced wires leading to the device and it was removed without causing injury or damage.

Elsewhere, Multi-National Division - Baghdad Soldiers detained a terrorist at about 11 p.m. on July 18 while he was emplacing an IED southwest of Baghdad. Soldiers from the 4th Infantry Division observed two terrorists digging on the side of the road - one terrorist fled to avoid capture, and the other was taken into custody. The Soldiers discovered a weapons cache containing four IEDs, a mortar tube with mortars, rifles, a camera with night-vision capability and rifle ammunition at the site. A further search of the area also led to the seizure of a rocket-propelled-grenade launcher with rounds. The area was cordoned off and an explosive ordnance disposal team was called to the scene.

(Compiled from Multi-National Corps - Iraq news releases.)

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1124&Itemid=42

-- July 24, 2006 8:58 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Sara;

I just ran across this "Report to Congress". This appears to be the latest and makes a very interesting read on Iraq. It covers everything.

Please check it out and let me know what you think.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/may2006/d20060530SecurityandStabiltyRptFinalv2.pdf

Happy Reading,

Outlaw

-- July 25, 2006 12:14 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Dinar opinions and guesses. Please remember that these are my opinions and assumptions (and we all know what those mean: opinions are like As*holes because every ones got one, and assuming makes an As*-out-of-you-and-me).

Time when anything will happen:

1. After to World Bank Chapter IV is announced in late July early August. This assessment in coordination with the WB is the only way that Iraq’s “Net Worth” is evaluated, and more importantly determines to a large extent the TRUE value of their money. It will also have a huge impact on whether it becomes an international currency traded in the ISX. This may also be when the Dinar is PEG’d to other currencies or a market basket.

2. Before the Investment Law is passed by the Assembly. Granted it has been approved by the Cabinet and Ministers. But the true vote to implement won’t come until late September early October. Could be before then if they get their act together. I believe that they want their money to increase in value prior to letting the investors come in. Doesn’t make much sense to do it afterward’s as they would be allowing the potential investors to invest too cheaply.

3. Definitely before the Hydrocarbon Investment Law is passed. This is the big one, with every Oil Company beating on the door. Trillions to be made. Would decrease unemployment tremendously over here. I no longer think that Security is a big issue with the Multi-Nationals. The cost of increased security is more then covered as a very minute percentage compared to the cost of a barrel of oil. The potential loss of life to employees is negligible and the cost “$” already figured in. Believe the smart ones have already invested in the Dinar and are sitting on them. This is a cheap investment for them now with the Dinar so low, and they know that it will rise. So buying a dinar today at 14 to $0.01 becomes very attractive when later that same dinar may cost 1428% more even if the Dinar only equals one cent. Huge profit, and makes the S&P look puny. With the cost of the oil field/refinery infrastructure improvements being very large (Hundreds of Billions, and take it from me as I have seen the age and condition of the existing), the Iraq’s will want every Dinar to be worth more so they can get their cut. Not to mention that those Oil Companies will soon run out of any Dinar’s they already hold, due to the tremendous costs involved.

4. Exact date: Pick a number, any number, or date. Wish, wish wish.

Why it will happen:

1. I believe that the CPA and the interim Governments missed the boat on this one. They should have raised the value long ago. Economic stability and an increased worth/value of the Dinar would have stopped much of the insurgency if the people had money to go shopping with, even if it was just for food. I know this sounds simplistic, but if you are working for something of value, then you are not out making IED’s.

2. No one likes their money to be worthless. Not that the Dinar is that. It is the perceived value on the street that is important. If a loaf of bread cost 1,000 IQD or approximately $0.71, when pre-war it would have taken only 3-7 IQD to buy the same loaf, your opinion is that your money has lost most of its value and purchasing power. This is a true statement. I think the perceived and real devaluation of the Dinar is costing the Government support. You can’t win a war with bullets only; you have to better the perceived economics on the street whether real or not. Make their money worth something to them, and much of the insurgency will go away. I know that this has absolutely nothing to do with Global Economics or the World Bank/IMF, but it does have to do with Politics (re-election), and the man on the street. Bread and Circuses, as the Roman Emperors were so fond of saying.

3. I also think that there will be little forewarning to preclude additional investment in the IQD. A lot of people keep asking why this potential investment has not reached the MSM, and is only on sites like this or a few stories in financial news deriding this as a Pig-In-The Poke. Because I think this is and insider trading thing and they don’t want to announce it to the world and thus cut their own percentage of potential profits. The ISX should make billions off of this when trading does start to happen. Their big profits will come from their commissions on either end and will be fast and furious. So quiet is the word of the day!!!!!!!!

4. Because I want it to happen. Enough said on that.

How much:

1. The big issue. My personnel opinion (see above for definition), is that we are not going to get rich over night. Hope for it, but not betting on it. Some figures to bear me out; 6 Trillion IQD on the street, worth approximately 4 Billion dollars and change. Even raising the value of 1 IQD to 1 Cent raises the overall value of the dinar to approximately 85 Billion Dollars. This is why I don’t see those projections of even $0.31 as realistic, as that would make the IQD on the street worth 2.6 Trillion Dollars. Not very realistic in my view. But then I am not an economist. Iraq could very well be worth that, but how much of that is mortgaged on future developments, or just plain betting on the come? Even at 1 Cent “OUR” profit would be over $9,000.00 per million IQD. Not bad. $270,000.00+ profit for Roger alone.

2. I see a gradual rise, or even an initial RV below a penny, initiated by the CBI and Finance Ministry in conjunction with WB approval. Then let it hit the international markets and standby for the ride. I believe that they will let the markets determine what its actual value is. And it should only get better as the big Multi-Nationals pull out their Check Books.

3. The real amount I project is: Waiting for Johnny Carson to play Karnac again and tell me. OOP’s forgot he is dead too.

Other things that do affect it:

1. Baghdad. Much like Alexander the Great said about the Mediterranean, “Whoever controls the Mediterranean, controls the World”. Same for Baghdad in Iraq. The center of everything in this country. They have got to get a handle on it.

2. What really piques my interest, is that all the MSM is reporting that Security and Economics are mentioned hand-in-hand on all reports/pronouncements coming out of Baghdad. I find it very important that now Economics is on the same level. In the past it was just given passing mention. So I think the Iraqi Government is very much in step with realizing that Economics can be used as a sword against numerous of the problems they have.

Things that don’t really affect the IQD:

1. The visit of their president to ours.

2. Security overall. I think the Economics, and thus the IQD are a separate issue, and that improving the Economy is actually looked at as one of the best ways to improve Security.

3. My wife. Don’t know whether to tell her or not about the investment. So far not!!!!

4. My children. Definitely NOT. I plan on putting the bumper sticker on my new Escalade that says “I am spending my children’s inheritance!”. And I hope it is a large one!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, that is “MY” opinions of where we stand on this ride from hell. No insider info, or special insight, just my view.

Now everyone’s turn to rip me apart, and kick me!!! Come on, I won’t cry much.

Lance

-- July 25, 2006 1:51 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Outlaw,

Outstanding link, shoud be required reading for eery investor:

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/may2006/d20060530SecurityandStabiltyRptFinalv2.pdf

Pages 17 to 22 of the actual document are some of the most enlightening I have read anywhere.

Thanks.

-- July 25, 2006 2:14 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Outlaw;

65 pages and it all says the same thing.. we aren't leaving Iraq til the job is done, we have a plan and we ARE winning! :)

Lance;

I am NOT going to "rip" you.. I loved the points in your WHY section - in particular the first one when you said, "They should have raised the value long ago. Economic stability and an increased worth/value of the Dinar would have stopped much of the insurgency if the people had money to go shopping with, even if it was just for food. I know this sounds simplistic, but if you are working for something of value, then you are not out making IED’s."

I wish that would get through to the Powers That Be.. just wish it were truly known. This is so very important.. please read it again.. quote:

"an increased worth/value of the Dinar would have stopped much of the insurgency"
"an increased worth/value of the Dinar would have stopped much of the insurgency"
"an increased worth/value of the Dinar would have stopped much of the insurgency"
"an increased worth/value of the Dinar would have stopped much of the insurgency"

STOP.
THINK ABOUT IT.
REALIZE IT.

It isn't about us making money (though that will happen too) but about winning the war in Iraq and stopping the seedbed of terrorism in its infancy. I wish this were understood and given its rightful importance by the politicos (such as the Iraqi factions bickering in the news) so such that they would stop haggling over non-issues and simply employ the winning strategies...

They need to realize that to win, they need to employ every positive strategy and this one is KEY!!

I am hopeful that this situation will be remedied soon.

Sara.

-- July 25, 2006 2:39 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Hey whataya all doing up this late...go to bed

-- July 25, 2006 3:44 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

whataya all doing up this late.....go to bed

-- July 25, 2006 3:47 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

ok I heard you....lights out

-- July 25, 2006 3:49 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Outlaw,

You should change your handle to: Finder of esoteric and very important Dinar news.

You must be using the NSA's/CIA's search engine.

Love the info.

Roger, it's only noon here, whats your problem.

Lance

-- July 25, 2006 4:48 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Local Color or the nightmare of Iraqi Politics. Or todays ponderings.

I hope that you have all seen the Godfather Series (movies). It has actually been a long time since I have watched it, so bear with me. I believe that in Part 2, you have a young Vito Corleone living in the Little Italy section of New York. Notice that I didn’t identify him as “Don” Vito, because he hasn’t reached that point yet. Instead he is basically a thug along with his friends. Now there is a local “Don” that runs the area (and I can’t for the life of me remember this characters name, but I remember him always wearing a White Suit and Hat), and is in-fact the local giver and taker of life, jobs, property, deals, etc… He struts around the streets receiving the accolades of the local Italians, and knowing that he is Top-Dog due to his wealth and potential to have one disappear. Even the local Priest is obeisant to him. The Don makes one mistake of over confidence by not having body guards with him all the time. Of course Vito takes advantage of this and whacks him while on an unaccompanied visit to his girlfriend. So little Vito moves up the ladder. You have to know that even in Little Italy, you still have your Police, Mayor, and local government in the background, though seldom seen or even cared about. After all they have been paid off too, or provide the locals with nothing.

Got the picture in your mind? Just change the Don into a Local Sheik wearing a White Robe and Turban, and the Priest is now the local Imam. Vito is no where to be found because he is already dead, or more importantly if the Don was knocked-off, the son from his first wife would take his place. Getting the idea now? This is one case where the old adage “All politics are local” is very much a truism. Another point is that the Sheik’s have been running these little kingdoms for thousands of years. So it is traditional. They long ago learned, that you go everywhere without protection (now called Militias), they just use AK-47’s now. Sometimes you have the reverse with the Imam on top, due to the local Sheik being weak, or in big cities where the Sheiks have disappeared or never gotten a foothold. Our buddy Muqtada al-Sadr is one of these, but he inherited his power from his father, though he does not have the religious education or training to be an Imam. He is just a bully riding on the good works that his father did and trading on the Sadr name. He is the Vito of Baghdad, or at least the loudest and deadliest of that bunch. Really was easy for him to get where he is today. Just surround yourself with young uneducated, unemployed boys, tell them they are special, give them a gun, promise them virgins, and let them go out and bully/kill people. Of course you also get to blame the evil Americans and anybody that isn’t of your religious stripe. So you create little instant terrorist buy the dozens. Works every time, just ask Bin Laden.

So where is the Representative Local Government in this? Still off-screen just like the movies. Paid-off, scared, under equipped, overwhelmed, belong to the wrong religious group, or already a member of the local militia. Take your pick. Then you have your foreign insurgents, former Bathist’, and common criminals to make it a jolly old time. Never quite sure who is shooting at you or why. You just want them to stop shooting.

The National Government; at least they are trying, but for their policies to get down to the common Iraqi, it just has to go through too many layers of greed, power, and until those local powers see what is in it for them, it will continue to be a mess. Will they win? Probably. They are at least attempting to exert their power. It is a long road, with so many players. Provincial, Local, Sheiks, Imam, and probably the guy at the 7/11 store who has a brother in the Militia. So until the National Government can exert force on the Local Powers, this will continue to be a mess. The easiest way to win is to pay (with power, privilege, money worth something, etc..) the Local Powers off, and kill those that don’t want to play ball. I do believe this is what is happening, but you won’t see it in the press stated as such. We are starting to see them going after Sadr’s henchmen in Baghdad as an initial step with the latter approach. I also hope he gets his 1,100 freedom fighters to Lebanon. Let Israel remove them for us, and give them their virgins. Hope they are disappointed when the find out that there aren’t any left!!!

-- July 25, 2006 8:53 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

My point about Sadr's henchmen below in the news.

Raids targeting Iraq death squads

By Borzou Daragahi and Julian E. Barnes, Tribune Newspapers: Los Angeles Times
Published July 25, 2006
BAGHDAD -- U.S. military officials announced Monday that they had stepped up a campaign against death squads operating in the Iraqi capital, launching 19 raids as sectarian violence between Sunnis and Shiites left dozens dead and wounded throughout the country.

In the western Iraqi province of Anbar, two U.S. soldiers assigned to the 1st Brigade of the 1st Armored Division died in combat, and the mayor of the provincial capital was assassinated.
Although the military released no more details about the soldiers' deaths, a witness reported that a roadside bomb had exploded near a Humvee about 5 p.m. Monday, apparently killing the troops.

Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, the top military spokesman in Baghdad, said Monday that the 19 raids were part of an effort to control the violence that has engulfed Baghdad in recent weeks. "Over the last week, we have intensified ... our efforts against death squads," he said.

The military said it had captured eight cell leaders and 37 cell members.

Meanwhile, Iraq's prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, made his first official visit to Britain since his government was formed in May.

Al-Maliki was scheduled to travel next to Washington for a meeting with President Bush on Tuesday.

In violence Monday, four civilians were killed during a clash between a U.S. military patrol and gunmen, Ramadi police Lt. Muhammed Shibeeb said.

Violence has intensified in Ramadi in the past two days, killing five policemen and the mayor, Shibeeb said.

On Sunday night, Mayor Muhamed Ahmed Al-Dulami was killed about 9 p.m. by gunmen, according to a witness. Three policemen were also killed in the attack.

On Monday, the city morgue in Kut, a mostly Shiite city southeast of Baghdad, reported receiving 19 bodies--blindfolded and some showing signs of torture, The Associated Press reported. They were believed to be victims of sectarian death squads, city officials said.

In Mosul, a suicide car bomb exploded, killing five Iraqis and injuring four more.

A car bomb also exploded in Samarra, killing two people and injuring 11 others.

In Basra, British forces moved against members of al-Mahdi Army, detaining nine men and angering residents loyal to the cleric Moqtada Sadr, an official from Sadr's Basra office said.

Also Monday, the most wanted Iraqi fugitive claimed in an interview that key elements of Saddam Hussein's old army are now heading the insurgency, AP reported.

Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, Hussein's top lieutenant with a $10 million bounty on his head, struck a defiant tone in an interview appearing on Time magazine's Web site in which he answered questions sent in May through intermediaries, AP reported. Time said it wasn't clear when his answers were written.

Al-Douri, the highest-ranking figure from Hussein's regime still at large and the "king of clubs" on the most wanted list, said Hussein blundered by having his army confront the U.S.-led invasion force instead of holding it in reserve to fight a guerrilla war, but he said the old army has bounced back.

Hussein's trial resumed Monday for closing arguments, a day after the former Iraqi leader was hospitalized and fed with a tube during his hunger strike to demand better security for his lawyers, AP reported.

-- July 25, 2006 9:28 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Lance:

I believe in one of your posts you indicated that you have not told your wife about your Dinar investment. Why?

I have a very small amount of Dinar compared to Roger, but I too have not said anything to my wife. My justification centers around the volatility of the Dinar itself.

If I told her, she would stay awake at night worrying. This may not be rational, but it settles for me any guilt I might have had for not telling her.

What do you guys think? Should Lance and I fess up to our wives? How many of you are keeping your Dinar investment a secret? This is getting interesting.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 25, 2006 11:37 AM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

My spouse knows - from the beginning.
But I do have a friend, a Dr's wife who has not told him. If she did, he would be out spending it as we speak.

He's going to find out when he goes to test drive a new SUV with one of his sons and when they arrive back at the dealers lot, he will be given the key.
I think she's only going to tell him about 50% of what they have, to protect the asset, so to speak.

-- July 25, 2006 11:53 AM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Here's a link to a foreign currency site that breaks down a country's wealth; nation by nation. It may shed some light on my last post. I couldn't find data on the exact amount of currency any country has dispersed of its own currency. If anyone has found information like this please let me know.

http://www.imf.org/external/np/sta/ir/colist.htm

-- July 25, 2006 11:56 AM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

To whose of you who are wondering about the vast amount of Dinars that are outside the country you should see this site..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_reserves

It explains in many words that the reasons for holding a large amount of your currency in reserves is to stabilize the currency. If it was all released at once the fluctuations in value would happen too often.

-- July 25, 2006 12:01 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Text of Bush-al-Maliki news conference By The Associated Press 24 minutes ago.

Text of Tuesday's news conference by President Bush and Iraqi Prime Minister al-Maliki, as transcribed by CQ Transcriptions:

___

BUSH: Thank you all. Please be seated.

Mr. Prime Minister, welcome to the White House.

I just had a very constructive meeting with the leader of a government that has been chosen by the Iraqi people in free and fair elections.

I appreciate your vision for a free Iraq, and I appreciate your briefing me on a strategy to reduce violence and to rebuild your country.

You have a strong partner in the United States of America, and I'm honored to stand here with you, Mr. Prime Minister.

It's a remarkable, historical moment, as far as I'm concerned, to welcome a freely elected leader of Iraq to the White House.

We discussed a lot of issues. The prime minister's laid out a comprehensive plan. That's what leaders do: They see problems, they address problems and they lay out a plan to solve the problems.

The prime minister understands he's got challenges. And he's identified priorities.

Our priority is to help this government succeed. It's in the national interests of the United States that a unity government, based upon a constitution that is advanced and modern, succeed.

And that's what I told the prime minister. You know, he comes wondering whether or not we're committed. He hears all kinds of stories here in the United States.

And I assured him that this government stands with the Iraqi people.

For complete reporting of this press conference go to: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060725/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_al_maliki_text_3;_ylt=AlGxQSm5Bkl9vEVOxna356wGw_IE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2ZGZwam4yBHNlYwNmYw--

-- July 25, 2006 1:36 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

U.S. steps up attacks on Iraq death squads

BAGHDAD, July 25 (UPI) -- U.S. forces made 19 raids against death squads responsible for the deaths of hundreds on civilians in Iraq as part of a new crackdown on the squads.

"Over the last week, we have intensified ... our efforts against death squads," he said.

"It appears it's very extremist elements from both sides out there operating, using murder and assassination as their means by which to further personal goals that they're trying to achieve," he said.

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060725-074242-9625r

-- July 25, 2006 2:21 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Outlaw,

I spent most of the night reading that very interesting post you found. That was a very good one indeed.

-- July 25, 2006 2:21 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,
Lunchtime in Iraq when it's sleeping time.
I dont believe it's because the earth rotates, because the earth is flat, must be some other reason

-- July 25, 2006 2:34 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

FIFTY PERCENT of Americans Think WMDs Were in Iraq

More Americans Think WMDs Were in Iraq
By Monisha Bansal
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
July 25, 2006

(CNSNews.com) - According to a recent Harris Poll, a growing number of Americans believe that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the United States went to war in March 2003.

Fifty percent of American adults, when questioned by telephone between July 5 and 11 said they believe weapons of mass destruction (WMD) existed in Iraq before the U.S. invaded and toppled Saddam Hussein's regime.

The latest poll - indicating that the mood has shifted and half of American adults believe Saddam possessed WMDs - surprised the polling firm.

"People seem to think Iraq had these weapons even if there's not much evidence of it," said David Krane, vice president of Harris Interactive, "even if there have been some discussions about the stockpiling of weapons that may be coming out slowly, I just can't imagine that the broad public knows that," he told Cybercast News Service.

However, an Oct. 4, 2004, report by Cybercast News Service included 42 pages of Iraqi Intelligence Service memos that revealed Saddam's purchase of mustard gas and anthrax as recently as the summer of 2000 and his extensive ties to al Qaeda.

Then in June, House Intelligence Committee Chairman Peter Hoekstra (R-Mich.) and U.S. Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) released declassified portions of an intelligence report that they said confirmed Saddam's possession of weapons of mass destruction, including mustard gas. The report indicated that 500 such weapons had been destroyed by the U.S.-led coalition since 2003 and that the U.S. and its allies were racing against terrorist groups in trying to control the remaining weapons in Iraq.

"It is essential for the American people to understand that these weapons are in Iraq," Santorum said during the news conference last month.

But many skeptics remain, including retired Air Force Lt. Col. Paul Lawrence Vann, who insisted, "The American people were misled ... Belief is one thing, but facts are another," he said. "Unfortunately the American people are responding to unfounded fear of WMD in a land far removed from our own."

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200607/NAT20060725a.html

-- July 25, 2006 2:34 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Very interesting structure of the Iraq society, and yes, it will take time, but the funny thing is, if the society looks similar in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Dubai, and it's a stable society, the shootings and killings in Iraq would not be because the society in itself is set up the way it is. I can imagine if democracy is introduced, there will be a very unique society for Iraq, but it will still be built on old principles.

Like many European countries still have Kings, dutches, and all that, but being a functional society.

Lance can you please educate a couple of americans morons on the difference between Persian and Arab.

I have not figured out if it is a different race, or different religion only.

If its different ethnic, that doesnt necessary mean it's different race.

If you take an American and a Canadian, they come from different ethnic background, but if you stand them side by side the only difference is the the Candian talks funny.

You couldnt tell any race diffrerence.

In the caucasian race group, India is actually a caucasian race. Take Joe Blow, and Mahurundi, and you can see that they are different even though they are the same race.

Persians, are those people undercover Arabs, but they like to talk differently and worship differently, but basically the same shit in different wrapping?

Can you please expand Lance, would preciajt it.

-- July 25, 2006 2:56 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Iran president warns of spreading violence.

By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 50 minutes ago

DUSHANBE, Tajikistan - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad warned Tuesday that the conflict between Lebanon and Israel could trigger "a hurricane" of broader fighting in the Middle East.

Ahmadinejad's nation is a major backer of the Hezbollah militant group and a sworn enemy of Israel. In his comments, he referred to a proverb that says: "He who raises the wind will get a hurricane."

"That proverb fully relates to the Middle East, which is a very volatile region," he said. "And it will be a strong hurricane which will strike really hard."

Ahmadinejad made his comments after meeting with Tajik President Emomali Rakhmonov. The two leaders signed a joint statement declaring "that the use of force against Palestine and Lebanon is unacceptable."

"All issues of international security must be resolved through dialogue, because force does not bring a solution," the Iranian leader said. "The use of force will only exacerbate the situation."

Ahmadinejad and Rakhmonov called for a cease-fire and urged international organizations to seek the swiftest possible settlement of the conflict.

Tajikistan is an impoverished but strategically important former Soviet republic because of its border with Afghanistan. Tajik and Iranian officials signed agreements Tuesday meant to boost trade and cooperation on cultural issues, labor, justice and tourism.

The Tajik language is similar to Farsi, Iran's main language.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060725/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_iranian_fallout;_ylt=As8axHAjCavcB84foYZPXICs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

-- July 25, 2006 3:39 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

'Courage' transfer another step for Iraq

Sunday, 23 July 2006

By George W. Casey Jr.
Multi-National Force - Iraq
Commanding General

In Mosul last week, Coalition forces transferred control of Forward Operating Base “Courage” to the Iraqi government. This event marks the 43rd of 108 operating bases turned over since Operation Iraqi Freedom began in March 2003.

As with the historic transfer of Muthanna Province to Iraqi control on 13 July, this turnover once again highlights the increasing capability of the Iraqi Security Force to protect its people. This day should bring hope and pride to the Iraqi people of the rapid progress they are making towards the goal of being able to stand on their own feet. More bases will be transferred to Iraqi control in the coming months.

Transfer of bases to Iraqi control mark another step in the march towards democracy and the birth of a new Iraq. This palace complex, built on more than 1.4 square miles of land and including several palaces and VIP residences, was Saddam Hussein's northernmost presidential site. Now it is back in the hands of its rightful owners -- the people of Iraq. Base transfer also continues to fulfill the promise made by the Coalition Forces that as the Iraqi Security Forces continue to grow in its capabilities and ability to sustain itself, Coalition Forces will continue to turn over more responsibility to them around Iraq in areas that the people of Iraq can see

Just as transfer of Provincial Iraqi Control, transfer of these bases is a phased, conditions-based process rather than strictly a time dependant action. Coalition forces are transferring security responsibilities – including bases, tactical areas of responsibility, and responsibility for domestic security within entire provinces – as the security environment and the capabilities of the Iraqi Security Forces to conduct counterinsurgency operations improves.

Iraq is making impressive progress and Iraqi Security Forces are gaining more capability and more responsibility each day as they rally behind their freely elected government. As the Iraq security forces grow stronger and more numerous, they are increasingly taking the lead in providing security for the nation. From one brigade and 11 battalions in June 2005 to four divisions, 21 brigades and 75 battalions in July 2006, Iraqi forces continue to take the lead in securing their nation. Additional units are nearly ready to assume security responsibilities and more than 275,000 trained and equipped Iraqi Soldiers and Police are manning the front lines, protecting their nation, their people and their families.

Ensuring a secure environment for the people of Iraq is vital to Iraq’s future and the success of the Government of National Unity. Accepting the transfer of Forward Operating Base “Courage” is one more tangible sign that the Iraqi Security Forces and the Iraqi Government continue to develop the capability to establish and maintain that secure environment. This transfer is a great testament to the strength of the Security Forces. I congratulate the Iraqi people, their government, and their security forces on this occasion and look forward to continued transfer of security responsibilities as their capabilities continue to improve.

Last Updated ( Sunday, 23 July 2006 )

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1180&Itemid=37

-- July 25, 2006 4:54 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Focus on Baghdad as Iraqis lead
Tuesday, 25 July 2006

DotiBAGHDAD - Iraqi security forces are increasingly taking the lead in operations as Baghdad becomes the focal point in the fight for Iraq, a Coalition spokesman said in Baghdad Monday.

Maj. Gen. William B. Caldwell IV, spokesman for Multi-National Force - Iraq, said in a press conference that Iraqi Soldiers and police are at the forefront of operations "to make their capital safer" and that they are setting the stage for Baghdad to emerge as a center for business and learning.

Insurgents and death squads have blanketed Baghdad with bombings, murders and kidnappings over the past week and a half, seeking to uproot the newly-formed democracy and derail the government.

"Baghdad is the center that everybody is fighting for," he told reporters.

Caldwell noted Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's assessment published today in the Wall Street Journal. He quoted Maliki as writing: "Security plans to quell the violence in Baghdad, the capital and most populous city, face serious challenges that must be overcome. Together, we can and will succeed."

That success, the general said, appears near. Recent tips provided by Baghdad citizens to Iraqi Soldiers and police have led to the capture or killing of insurgents and the foiling of bombing and kidnapping plots.
Such triumphs demonstrate the growing capability of Iraqi security forces, he said, adding that America remains firmly in al-Maliki's camp. Caldwell vowed that U.S. troops will do "whatever it takes" to bring security to Baghdad.

Coalition officials have said the recent murders and kidnappings in and around the capital don't seem to be the work of any one particular group.

"It's been a random of Iraqi personnel that we've picked up that have been associated with death squads," Caldwell said.
He warned that people conducting illegal activities in Baghdad will be arrested.

“Anyone who is conducting activities outside the law obviously we are targeting,” said Caldwell.

During the past week, Iraqi security forces, working with Coalition forces in support, have intensified operations aimed at quelling the violence. Caldwell said there has been 19 such operations, 17 of them inside Baghdad.

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1234&Itemid=18

-- July 25, 2006 5:00 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Democrats assail Maliki for criticism of Israel, failure to denounce Hezbollah
1 hour, 35 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (AFP) - Democrats in the US Congress called on Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki to condemn Hezbollah's attacks against Israel and to recognize Israel's right to defend itself.

The lawmakers expressed dismay during a press conference over Maliki's recent criticism of "Israel aggression" in Lebanon, and called for a "clarification" from the Iraqi leader before he appears Wednesday before a joint session of Congress.

House Democrats wrote a letter Tuesday urging Republican House Speaker Dennis Hastert to revoke his invitation to Maliki, whose steadfastness as a partner in the US-led war on terror, they said, is seriously in doubt.

"With evidence mounting that the Iraqi leadership's goals are not in the best interests of the United States -- nor the Middle East -- Prime Minister Maliki's address is inappropriate," the House Democrats told Hastert.

"We are unaware of any prior instance where a world leader who worked against the interests of the United States was afforded such an honor. We would like to know how Prime Minister Maliki was chosen to receive the honor, and absent an apology by the prime minister, urge you to cancel the address," they wrote.

The leader of opposition Democrats in the House, Nancy Pelosi, in a statement, called Maliki's remarks "unacceptable."

"At the White House this morning, Mr Maliki did not retreat from his comments on Israel and once again failed to criticize Hamas and Hezbollah's terrorist activities.

"Unless Mr Maliki disavows his critical comments of Israel and condemns terrorism, it is inappropriate to honor him with a joint meeting of Congress," she said.

Other House Democrats added that they felt concern recently about "extensive reports indicating that Maliki and many in the Iraqi leadership are increasingly influenced by the government in Iran.

Maliki is in Washington this week for meetings with US President George W. Bush and other senior officials.

Democrats in the US Senate suggested that some members may choose to boycott the event if a satisfactory explanation by Maliki of his views on Hezbollah is not forthcoming.

"No matter how politically expedient he thinks it may be, to stand with America, you have to stand against terrorism," said Senator Chuck Schumer at a press conference.

"Before he speaks in front of the Congress and the American people, there's a very simple question we are asking the prime minister today: Which side is he on when it comes to the war on terror?" Schumer said.

In a letter dated July 24, Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid, along with other party leaders, further press the Iraqi leader to clarify his views before speaking to Congress.

"Your failure to condemn Hezbollah's aggression and recognize Israel's right to defend itself raise serious questions about whether Iraq, under your leadership, can play a constructive role in resolving the current crisis and bringing stability to the Middle East," the lawmakers wrote to Maliki.

"As you know, the American people have given so much in the name of fighting global terror and helping build a better future for the people of Iraq," the Senate Democrats said.

"Americans deserve to know whether Iraq is an ally in these fights."

The senators' letter called Maliki's recent denunciations of Israel's bombing of Lebanon "very troubling."

"In advance of your scheduled appearance before a joint session of Congress on Wednesday, we believe it is essential that you clarify your position with respect to Hezbollah and its provocative incursions into Israel," the lawmakers wrote.

"It is imperative that the US Congress and the world know immediately whether you support or condemn Hezbollah's acts of terrorism."

In a separate letter addressed to Bush meanwhile, former Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry wrote that Maliki should to use the Congress speech to answer his critics, in order to "build confidence in his government as they embark on the difficult tasks ahead."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060725/pl_afp/mideastconflictusiraq_060725193846;_ylt=AtYCiRUwTxgM2cTktmi1SA5X6GMA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

-- July 25, 2006 5:19 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Outlaw:

Concerning your last post, it is not surprising the Democrats are assailing Maliki for criticism of Israel and for his failure to denounce Hezbollah. Since the beginning of the campaign the Democrats have sought to call into question the creditability of President George W. Bush. Discredit the legitamacy of the Iraq Government. Their continued criticism is a sign of their desperation to spin something out of nothing.

I do not think the American people are going to be fooled by their continous critcism. The Republicans are offering a course in Iraq, what are the democrats offering?

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 25, 2006 5:46 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Outlaw are you kdding me with this crap? This has nothing to do with Bush... no matter how big of a retard he is. This new Iraqi govt. is an extension of the American system and sould be viewed that way. People who have thought otherwise were killed as a result of this war. We paved Maliki's way to the top with gold. Should he now support the same people who want to kill us is an insult. Terrorism must end. If that results on Maliki's removal then let it happen.

-- July 25, 2006 6:09 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

The questions are......

Does Maliki condemn Hezbollah's aggression and terrorist activities?

Does Maliki believe Israel has a right to defend itself against Hezbollah?

I believe these are justified questions and Maliki needs to answer them. A good chance would be when he speaks to our Congress.

I'm sure the liberal press will have a field day....but we need to know the answers.

-- July 25, 2006 7:42 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Sorry Outlaw.. That last comment should be addressed to Rob not you.

-- July 25, 2006 7:48 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I hope everybody remembers the US Diplomats asking, just after 9/11, every country in the ME if they were with us or against us.

Our war on terrorism is real and the future of the US depends on knowing who our friends are as we win the war.

-- July 25, 2006 7:52 PM ∞

---

Mary Lou wrote:

Iraq restructures almost $20bn Saddam-era debt July 22, 2006 - Iraq has concluded its programme to restructure Saddam-era commercial debt, having retired almost $20 billion over the past eleven months, one of the country's financial advisors Citigroup, said.
he bank said in a statement Iraq had completed the process after two rounds of debt-for-debt exchange, four rounds of cash buybacks and an arbitration process addressing previously unreconciled claims.
Almost 500 commercial claimants participated in the programme under which claims worth $19.7 billion against Iraq and Iraqi public sector entiities were retired, the bank said in the statement.
Almost 12,000 individual Saddam-era commercial claims were cancelled as a result of the process, it added.
"The enormous and unsustainable debt stock accumulated by the Saddam regime has now been reduced to the point that it will not deter the new investment needed to finance Iraq's economic reconstruction" Iraq's central bank governor Sinan Al Shabibi said in the same statement.
Last month, following an arbitration process, Iraq added $131 million to its 2028 2.6 billion eurobond, which was issued in January 2006 to restructure $14 billion worth of claims.

-- July 25, 2006 9:12 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

http://theotheriraq.com/

There's hope

-- July 25, 2006 9:37 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Rob N.

Love my wife, but she tends to think that if she has Checks in the Check Book, then there is money in the bank. Really not that bad!:) The real reason is; Why put her through the hell we are all experiencing. And I would rather surprise her with being filthy rich.

Roger,

You are right again. The earth is flat. Especially where I am, in the middle of the desert. Sorry, blame it on the heat!!!!!!!

Persians = Iranians. Both a cultural and ethnic difference from the rest of the Gulf Arabs. They speak Farsi, and most of the rest speak Arabic. Some of my best friends are Iranians (living in the States). Of course they are all EXPAT’s from the Ayatollah’s regime. Read some history about ancient Persia and you will see the difference in their history vs. the rest of the Arab world. The Persian Empire is actually where most of our culture, science, and much else comes from. This was very much the center of culture and learning, while our ancestors were in the Dark Ages painting their faces blue. Of course like many peoples with a great past the Iranians still think they are special and look down on the poor Gulf Arabs. It’s a cultural thing. But now the tables are very much turned with the Gulf Arabs being the rich ones, and the Iranians being the ones will real issues. Their current president (kill all the Jews), is very much into trading on the past grandeur of the Persian Empire and telling them they should again rule the world. If this sounds familiar, just look back to the Nazi’s. Dear old Adolph used the supposed Aryan history to justify his little fantasies. What is really funny is that the original Aryan’s he talked about were actually from Persia and parts of India/Pakistan. Some people just can’t get it right.

-- July 25, 2006 10:51 PM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

XE.com shows 1 USD = 1484 IQD...going the wrong way....it hasnt been that high in a long time.....any thoughts?

-- July 25, 2006 11:16 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Bob,

Don't think it is anything to worry about. CBI exchange rate Note: #1 (1476+1+10=1487)so not much different from the Local Bank purchase price. The Money Exchangers have to take their cut too. Note #2 (1476+2) for foreign exchange. All the extra is the Exchangers profit. Wait until (if it ever) hits the real open market. You will see vast swings within minutes. That is what I am waiting for. Come on dinar!!!! Hike Hike

-- July 26, 2006 6:33 AM ∞

---

C1Jim wrote:

It was more fun reading this page when we were going to be rich in a couple of days.

-- July 26, 2006 7:37 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

C1Jim....

I agree with you! I think if Maliki survives his speech before Congress without getting killed by the liberals he can continue on in good shape. His next little chore will be to dis-arm, or put in jail, his fat little buddy Al-Sadr and the other thugs in Baghdad.

I still have confidence in our investment.

-- July 26, 2006 9:51 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Taylor:

The retard comment causes me to question the very credibilty of your position. When one chooses to resort to name calling it appears there is really no point to be argued.

Regardless of whether you believe the Iraqi Government is an extension of the American System the fact remains the Democratic party shriek at any success in Iraq.

Taylor, real progress has been made in Iraq contrary to the anti-propaganda spread by the Demcratic faithful. Since 2003 the democratic leadership namely Hiliary Clinton, John Kerry, and Ted Kennedy have been praying for some Iraqi disaster that would help justify their criticism. I can imagine the three of them sipping sherry when Iraq was on the brink of civil war. Since the ending of secterian violence, their only recourse is to continue to be critical. At this juncture, their prayers have not been answered.

Their continual attempts to discredit President Bush and now criticize Maliki continues to underscore their own lack of vision for Iraq and America.

Taylor, I do not usually paraphrase the Bible, but in this reply I think it quite appropriate to do so. "Without a vision the people parish." Will you please tell me and the others on this forum what the Democrat's vision is for Iraq? Listening to its leadership there does not seem to be one.

I concede to mistakes being made in Iraq, but I also recognize that President George W. Bush has a real vision for those people. Every success in that country brings us closer to his vision's fruition.

Democracy for Iraq is good for Iraq. It is good for the Iraqi people. It is good for the American people, especially those who have invested in the Dinar. Ask yourself this question Taylor. If the democrats were in office, would I have an equal or better opportunity to make a substantial profit in Iraq? I believe the answer to that qestion is NO.

So, if you think my previous post and this post are both full of crap, then why are you investing in the Iraqi Dinar? In my opinion, you are not investing in the Dinar because of anything the Democrats have done. You are investing in the Dinar based upon the vision and action of George W. Bush. One last question, since you stand to make some profit from your investment in Iraq why are you calling George W. Bush a retard. I think the only retards in this senario are the Democrats. Oops I called the the democrats retards, my mistake.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 26, 2006 10:31 AM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Iraqi prime minister addresses Congress
By ANNE PLUMMER FLAHERTY, Associated Press Writer
2 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Seeking to shore up the U.S. military commitment in Iraq, Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki must charm an increasingly skeptical Congress that is wary of his criticism of Israel and concerned about rising violence in Baghdad.

During his first trip to Washington since becoming prime minister two months ago, Al-Maliki was to address the House and Senate in a joint meeting on Wednesday.

In earlier meetings with President Bush, the Iraqi leader asked the United States for more military equipment and recommended increasing U.S. and Iraqi forces patrolling Baghdad neighborhoods.

Al-Maliki told reporters he and Bush agreed Iraqi forces needed training and better arms "as quickly as possible," particularly in the besieged capital city, to stabilize the country. Bush said the violence in Baghdad "is still terrible" and more troops are needed there.

The president said U.S. forces would be moved into Baghdad from other parts of Iraq. He did not say how many troops would be redeployed, but Pentagon officials have suggested several thousand soldiers would be moved to Baghdad, including some now based in Kuwait.

Roughly 127,000 U.S. troops are in Iraq, but the administration is under increasing pressure from both Democrats and some Republicans to bring a substantial number of them home by the end of this year.

"I certainly hope that he stands as strong as he can because we've got an awful lot of the credibility of the United States riding on his ability to lead this government," said Sen. John Warner (news, bio, voting record), R-Va., chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

At the same time, leading House and Senate Democrats said they were incensed by al-Maliki's position on the Israel-Hezbollah conflict. Al-Maliki has condemned what he called Israel's "hostile acts" in Lebanon and said the international community has not done enough to stop it.

The House and Senate last week overwhelmingly approved resolutions in support of Israel, which began heavy attacks on Hezbollah sites in Lebanon two weeks ago after Hezbollah forces crossed into northern Israel, killed eight Israeli soldiers and captured two.

Al-Maliki sidestepped a direct question at a White House news conference Tuesday about his position on Hezbollah, the guerrilla group that dominates south Lebanon.

"Here, actually, we're talking about the suffering of a people in a country. And we are not in the process of reviewing one issue or another, or any government position," al-Maliki said.

Sen. Charles Schumer (news, bio, voting record), D-N.Y., said he doubted he would attend al-Maliki's address, and House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi hinted she too would boycott the speech. "Unless Mr. Maliki disavows his critical comments of Israel and condemns terrorism, it is inappropriate to honor him with a joint meeting of Congress," said Pelosi, D-Calif.

Another 20 Democrats, including Rep. Rahm Emanuel (news, bio, voting record) of Illinois, sent a letter to GOP House leadership asking to rescind al-Maliki's invitation to address Congress.

"We are unaware of any prior instance where a world leader who worked against the interests of the United States was afforded such an honor," the Democrats wrote.

GOP members said they too were concerned about the direction of the Iraq government, but they wanted to retain a dialogue with al-Maliki and other top leaders.

"We have hundreds of thousands of men and women right now fighting in Iraq to see that that country does become a safe, a free democratic and prosperous country," Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist of Tennessee said Wednesday on CBS' "The Early Show." "We have their sovereign elected leader, with a full cabinet just recently appointed, coming to this country to continue that dialogue. So to even think that some of my Democratic colleagues are not going to show up to continue that show of support, that dialogue and, yes, ask questions and ask tough questions, is just wrong."

At the White House, press secretary Tony Snow said al-Maliki is entitled to his say.

"Let me try to explain democracy to people on Capitol Hill. It involves such rights as free speech and freedom of opinion," Snow said Wednesday. "The president is not a puppeteer in this case. He's not pulling the strings of Prime Minister al-Maliki. Prime Minister al-Maliki is the duly elected leader of a sovereign state, and as a result, has rights to his opinions."

Warner said attending al-Maliki's address and engaging his government were critical to achieve success in Iraq. Warner also said he has warned the administration about unintended consequences from supporting Israel's military operations.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060726/ap_on_go_co/us_iraq;_ylt=AtSPmrMReWndOyOea__zKdOs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3OTB1amhuBHNlYwNtdHM-

-- July 26, 2006 11:25 AM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Don't worry Rob... A fool and his money will soon part. Get used to doing your current day job.

Honestly, I could give a crap about Iraq or the people in Iraq. I'm in this for one reason. Its to make $$. Welcome to the business world.
Do I care about the Chinese? NO. I just want my TV's and computers made faster and cheaper. I really don't care what age the person is or how many hourse they worked in the sweat shop to produce it. Perhaps you've just stumbled on the typical American.

The war should have been presented in a different way.. conquer a weaker country so we can get our oil at a cheaper price.

Our military was originally set up for one reason.. to protect ourselves and our borders. NOT SOMEONE ELSE! Somewhere along the line we've lost that vision and we've become the policemen of the world. Do you ever see anyone giving Sweeden or Iceland a hard time? Any terrorism there?? NO. We are looking for a fight if you ask me. If our country started moving toward a idealogy of isolation, we'd solve a lot of problems right there. We could keep jobs here. We could use our own oil, we could save trillions because we'd no longer have to save the world from killing itself. We'd only have to worry about 1 thing; US - the United States.

When we got rid of Saddam we offset a very delicate balance of power in the middle east. The People of Iraq did us a favor by holding back Iran from becomming too strong. This is probably the reason why it was thought that the Iraqi people supposedly had WMD. The thought of their enemies holding this power would hold back the Iranians from crossing their borders.
We really fu**ed it up.

Bush a retard? Absolutly. However, I do thank him for tilting the tables to hopefully make me millions..

Donald Rumsfeld briefed the President this morning. He told President Bush that 3 Brazilian soldiers were killed in Iraq in the last 24 hours.

To everyone's surprise, all of the color ran from Bush's face and he collapsed on to his desk, head in hands, visibly shaken almost whimpering.

Finally, he composed himself and asked Secretary Rumsfeld, "Just exactly how many is a brazillion?"

George W. Bush (Dubya)
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave., NW
Washington, D.C. 20500

Past Work Experience

Ran for congress and lost.
Produced a Hollywood slasher B movie.
Bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas; company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.
Bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using taxpayer money. Biggest move: Traded Sammy Sosa to the Chicago White Sox.
With father's help (and his name) was elected Governor of Texas.
Accomplishments in Previous Positions

Changed pollution laws for power and oil companies and made Texas the most polluted state in the Union.

Replaced Los Angeles with Houston as the most smog-ridden city in America. Cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas government to the tune of billions in borrowed money.

Set record for most executions by any governor in American history.

Became president after losing the popular vote by over 500,000 votes, with the help of my father's appointments to the Supreme Court.

Accomplishments As President

Attacked and took over two countries.
Spent the surplus and bankrupted the treasury.
Shattered record for biggest annual deficit in history.
Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period.
Set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market.
First president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.
First president in U.S. history to enter office with a criminal record.
First year in office set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in U.S. history.
After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, presided over the worst security failure in U.S. history.
Set the record for most campaign fundraising trips than any other president in U.S. history.
In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their job.
Cut unemployment benefits for more out of work Americans than any president in U.S. history.
Set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.
Appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in U.S. history.
Set the record for the least amount of press conferences than any president since the advent of television.
Signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any president in U.S. history.
Presided over the biggest energy crises in U.S. history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.
Presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history and refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have.
Cut healthcare benefits for war veterans.
Set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.
Dissolved more international treaties than any president in U.S. history.
My presidency is the most secretive and unaccountable of any in U.S. history.
Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in U.S. history (the 'poorest' multimillionaire, Condoleezza Rice, has an Exxon oil tanker named after her).
First president in U.S. history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously go bankrupt.
Presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world.
First president in U.S. history to order a U.S. attack and military occupation of a sovereign nation.
Created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States.
Set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any president in U.S. history.
First president in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the human rights commission.
First president in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the elections monitoring board.
Removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in U.S. history.
Rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.
Withdrew from the World Court of Law.
Refused to allow inspectors access to U.S. prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.
First president in U.S. history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. elections).
All-time U.S. (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.
My biggest lifetime campaign contributor presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation).
Spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in U.S. history.
First president in U.S. history to unilaterally attack a sovereign nation against the will of the United Nations and the world community.
First president to run and hide when the U.S. came under attack (and then lied saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)
First U.S. president to establish a secret shadow government.
Took the biggest world sympathy for the U.S. after 9/11, and in less than a year made the U.S. the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in U.S. and world history).
With a policy of 'disengagement' created the most hostile Israeli-Palestine relations in at least 30 years.
Fist U.S. president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.
First U.S. president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the U.S. than their immediate neighbor, North Korea.
Changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.
Set all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated U.S. law by not selling huge investments in corporations bidding for government contracts.
Failed to fulfill my pledge to get Osama Bin Laden 'dead or alive.'
Failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders of our country at the United States Capital building. After 18 months I have no leads and zero suspects.
In the 18 months following the 9/11 attacks I have successfully prevented any public investigation into the biggest security failure in the history of the United States.
Removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in U.S. history.
In a little over two years created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided the U.S. has ever been since the Civil War.
Entered office with the strongest economy in U.S. history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.
Records and References

At least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available)
AWOL from National Guard and deserted the military during a time of war.
Refuse to take drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.
All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my father's library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
All minutes of meetings for any public corporation I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.
For personal references please speak to my daddy or uncle James Baker (they can be reached at their offices of the Carlyle Group for war-profiteering.)

-- July 26, 2006 1:09 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Bill Maher put it very well on HBO the other night:

"Mr. President, this job can't be fun for you any more. There's
no more money to spend--you used up all of that.

You can't start another war because you used up the army. And
now, darn the luck, the rest of your term has become the Bush family nightmare: helping poor people.

Listen to your Mom. The cupboard's bare, the credit cards maxed out. No one's speaking to you. Mission accomplished.

Now it's time to do what you've always done best: lose interest
and walk away. Like you did with your military service and the oil company and the baseball team. It's time. Time to move on and try the next fantasy job. How about cowboy or space man?

Now I know what you're saying: there's so many other things that you as President could involve yourself in. Please don't.

I know, I know. There's a lot left to do. There's a war with
Venezuela. Eliminating the sales tax on yachts. Turning the
space program over to the church. And Social Security to
Fannie Mae. Giving embryos the vote.

But, Sir, none of that is going to happen now. Why? Because you govern like Billy Joel drives.

You've performed so poorly I'm surprised that you haven't given
yourself a medal.

You're a catastrophe that walks like a man. Herbert Hoover was a shitty president, but even he never conceded an entire city to
rising water and snakes.

On your watch, we've lost almost all of our allies, the surplus,
four airliners, two trade centers, a piece of the Pentagon and the City of New Orleans. Maybe you're just not lucky. I'm not saying you don't love this country. I'm just wondering how
much worse it could be if you were on the other side.

So, yes, God does speak to you. What he is saying is: 'Take a
hint.' "

Bill Maher
HBO-Real Time

-- July 26, 2006 1:22 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

NBA OR NFL?

36 have been accused of spousal abuse

7 have been arrested for fraud

19 have been accused of writing bad checks

117 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses

3 have done time for assault

71,repeat
71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit

14 have been arrested on drug-related charges

8 have been arrested for shoplifting

21 currently
are defendants in lawsuits, and

84 have been arrested for drunk driving
in
the last year

Can
you guess which organization this is?



Neither,it's the 535 members of the United States Congress.

The same group of Idiots that crank out hundreds of new laws each year
designed to keep the rest of us in line.

-- July 26, 2006 1:34 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,
Thanks on the Persian/Arab difference.

Yes, same retoric, nazis or islamofachists, when their race is supreme.

Aryans, do actually not exist, Germany is the crossroads of Europe, and all possible combinations of migration to the point of loosing track, has taken place all over Europe since times beginning.

Also it's easy to generalize, saying all Germans were Nazis. I do believe the extreemists, in the Persian Arab cultures are bullying the population about the same way the fanatic nazis were doing.

I had a friend when I grew up, he was born in Germany, his father was in the Waffen SS. Waffen SS was an elite corps, similar to Special Forces or Marines, and was called in to roll up the front when the allied axis forces of Bulgarian or Italian forces was bogged down.

Gestapo and Waffen SS was not liked by each other. Waffen SS considered Gestapo as backline lazy, and murderers, while the Waffen SS, did "honorable" war against a visible enemy. he told me that many times a cafee was filled with Waffen SS, and in walked two black uniformed Gestapo Officers, the whole group of Waffen SS, would rise and leave the place empty.

His father was at the time the youngest Major (only 23 years of age) in the Wermacht (German army) at the time, he was one of the very few Germans that was able to see Moscow in his field binoculars, he was at the very point of where Germany succeded in it's invasion.

At that moment he recieved a letter from Gestapo, wondering why he, as important person as he is, and with such an impeccable Arian background, could marry a 100% jewish woman. It was forbidden by law, and the issue has to be dealt with.

He answered that he will take care of the business after the victory, and requested the issue to be put in pending file until later.

Victory never came, but in the meanwhile, his wife, was able to live a life in Germany, in her small village, walking around without a star, without being deported and with full support and protection by the village people.

So it seems it's more in the hears and minds of people, and when it comes to big declarations, by nazis, islamofaschists, or any other Big Brother, the last say, what is right and wrong ultimately comes down to what the people themselves think.

The harder they bully, the more they get it their way, if they slack in their bullying, the reason and logic, starts taking over.

I think the phenomenon is more recognizable on a smaller scale.

If there is in the family, a grandma, or Niece, Oncle or something, that is very confused, very ignorant, loud, aways in the center of things, , always dominating.

When you are around one of those individuals, after a while, you have a hard time collecting your thoughts, start making mistakes, get upset over things, and your future seems hopeless.

Once that two week terrible vacation at Oncle Terror, and his submissive wife is over, (you know you're never doing it again,) and while you're sitting in you car driving home, suddenly , things starts to clear, things starts to come together, and lines become straight again. You're actually sitting and smiling.

You are getting back control over your "thinking space".

I have an idea that It's not Islam itself, but the way its set up, that drives people crazy over there. The call goes on endlessly for prayer, loudspeakers, people screaming from towers, it's precense is far more intruding than a churchbell.

Then, as a whole group you attend prayer, that must give a very strong feeling of belonging. For me religion is very private, love to discuss it, and so, but my own practices, I doubt that anyone have a clue. Over there its emphasized on a very big group.

Any individualism can't thrive in those conditions.

So with such a massive overwhelming religious practice, the rest of the life must by definition also focus around it.

God or Allah, must be intertwined in the society in so many ways that it's almost impossible to describe.

Dealing cars, laying roofs, shopping groceries, anything.

I doubt that one Arab (or Persian) man or woman can go one day, without assiociating their daily taks, with "God willing" , "With the might of Allah" or similar things, when standing at a car parts store figuring out if the have got the right kind of break liner for their pickup.

This is a dilemma, and a very hard nut to crack.

If you would tell the Arab, to start free thinking, and stop listen to the bullhorn in your ear, you would tell him to abandon his faith.

It's simply that Islam need a Marthin Luther, they have never had one, He dignified and upheld all the Christian beliefs, and was opposed to the Roman Catholic Church total power.

That lead to a reformation, in both the reformed, side of Christianity, and the Catholic style of Christianity, and today, it's more a choice of belief rather than a powerstruggle.

Right now, it's the Megaphone in the ear, style Islam, and no reformation is on the horizon.

The reforms starting to happen is on the social side, wobbly democracies, in Afghanistan, Lebanon( it's a joke), and Iraq, question is, if the reforms coming from that side of life, will eventually reform the Islam church itself.

-- July 26, 2006 1:51 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Bush or not,Taylor in the lead right now, gota roll, I may or may not have time for this one, but it's a sure issue to hit the hearts of people.

-- July 26, 2006 1:58 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Hi guys...I haven't posted to this thread since about 2 notebooks ago. Me = Rommel. =) I've been following this thread dilligently, and have served time in Kuwait, Baghdad, and later this year in Qatar. (I know Outlaw...vacation!) I've always appreciated the relevency of this post to current IQD news, even though there have been a few rabbit trails in the past. I've followed up on the research and conducted a little of my own, have a good buddy of mine who is a branch manager of a bank in North Idaho who gives me sound financial advice and his opinion as well. This is what he says, a good night on the town will cost almost a million IQD...sounds like this is a much more profitable venture! I am looking forward to one delicious pig roast a few years down the road (IMO). However what caused me to move from observer to participant in this current notebook are the blatantly callous posts from Taylor. Now I can understand that some people are totally self-centered and are concerned for no one but themselves, but dude, if you've got to go completely away from the intent of this thread to express your political views towards our commander-in-chief, MLB v NBA, etc...why dont you go call C-SPAN or something. I would invite the moderators to delete these posts as they have no contribution whatsoever to the current discussion topic. The fact is, we are here to discuss and speculate on the IQD, not go off on some wild political expression of discontent toward our Commander in Chief, aka my Boss. The only thing I have to say to you personally is this: The fact that you can sit there and abuse this forum for your own distorted political agenda is due to the sweat and blood, not to mention the LIVES that me and my comrades have VOLUNTARILY given for the sake of freedom. Before this war, approximately 891,000 american soldiers gave their lives (combat related deaths) in order for us to enjoy the freedom we have. So therefore feel free to express yourself and speak out against whomever you want...just do me one small favor for my labor. Dont do it here, please. If others are in agreement, please respond with a "here here"

Lets try to stay on focus without going out of our way to start calling eachother names, and then springboarding onto a rabbit trail that leads nowhere.

Ok, now that thats out of the way...and these are just my thoughts, I believe we are getting closer and closer. As Iraq's debt to income ratio rapidly closes in, more money is going to be used to build up their infrastructure. Remember the huge boom in Iraqs economy in the 70s and early 80s? They were one of the most advanced cultures on the planet, until uncle Saddam squandered that away by picking on a country 3 times bigger than him. I see Iraq on the verge of an explosive economic recovery. It's gonna happen fast, with or without the insurgency. Of course getting rid of them will only help, but we are talking about rebuilding so much faster than they can tear down. Just look at the progress we've made thus far! I personally awarded contracts to rebuild 3 secondary schools and 2 primary schools that have been neglected and abused over the years. Now these kids have a modern facility in which to learn in and go to school...in some cases their schoolhouse is far better than their own houses! And then there are the countless other construction projects that are going on, including one of the worlds largest and most sophisticated oil refineries. I'm excited...and look forward to meeting y'all in the near future!

Peace...

-- July 26, 2006 2:41 PM ∞

---

smooter wrote:

Tyler,

"Here, here"

Smooter

-- July 26, 2006 2:51 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

I think TAYLOR is in dire need of mercy, because, concerning GW Bush.. it is good when all men do not speak well of him:

====

Luke 6:26-36: Woe to you when all men shall speak well of you! For so did their fathers to the false prophets.

But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.

For if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back.

But love your enemies, do good, and lend.. and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.

Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

-- July 26, 2006 2:59 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Tyler;

Here, here..

Thanks for your post..

and your service for freedom.

Without it, we wouldn't even have this notebook page.

Sara.

-- July 26, 2006 3:03 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

PM Says Iraq Is Front Line of Terror War
By ANNE PLUMMER FLAHERTY, Associated Press Writer
Wednesday, July 26, 2006

(07-26) 09:57 PDT WASHINGTON, (AP) -- Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki insisted Wednesday that his country is a front line in the war on terrorism and said those behind the rampant violence there are perverting the Islamic faith.

"I know some of you question whether Iraq is part of the war on terror," al-Maliki told a joint meeting of Congress, where some lawmakers have been critical of the new Iraqi leader's position on the current conflict between Israel and Hezbollah militants.

"Let me be very clear," said al-Maliki, speaking through a translator. "This is a battle between true Islam, for which a person's liberty and rights constitute essential cornerstones, and terrorism, which wraps itself in a fake Islamic cloak."

Al-Maliki said his country has made great strides despite the threat of extremists he said are bent on destroying Iraq's nascent democracy.

"Above all they wish to spread fear and represent a threat to all free countries", he said "Iraq is the battle that will determine the war."

Of his people, who have faced violence and death as the country makes a transition from the Saddam's rule, al-Maliki said: "They have stated over and over again, with the ink-stained fingers waving in pride, they will always make the same choice."

Asked about talk among Democrats earlier of boycotting al-Maliki's address, White House press secretary Tony Snow said, "Let me try to explain democracy to people on Capitol Hill. It involves such rights as free speech and freedom of opinion.

"The president is not a puppeteer in this case. He's not pulling the strings of Prime Minister al-Maliki. Prime Minister al-Maliki is the duly elected leader of a sovereign state, and as a result, has rights to his opinions."

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/07/26/national/w091830D88.DTL

-- July 26, 2006 3:35 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Don't write off my posts as an unnecessary Bush slam.. Rob's post of : "Concerning your last post, it is not surprising the Democrats are assailing Maliki for criticism of Israel and for his failure to denounce Hezbollah. Since the beginning of the campaign the Democrats have sought to call into question the creditability of President George W. Bush. Discredit the legitamacy of the Iraq Government. Their continued criticism is a sign of their desperation to spin something out of nothing.

I do not think the American people are going to be fooled by their continous critcism. The Republicans are offering a course in Iraq, what are the democrats offering? "

The Democrats opinion is a much needed and welcomed voice to keep this government in check. Their arguments are very well validated by the current track record of this government. They are not desperate to "spin something out of nothing". They want to make sure, just like every American should, that your tax dollars are being spent for the better of every AMERICAN. We should be sure were supporting a society that will in turn support our values, not set up another Western hating government.

I don't consider myself a Democrat or Republican, however, I don't like seeing one group slammed because they don't support rebuilding a nation when there's a nation here, that they live in, that needs alot of help. No one wants to see soldiers die. No one wants to see other people oppressed or tortured for their ideas. But think of this question.. What is the real cost of this war?

When the dinars finally do come to RV, I will cash in just as all of you hopefully will. I just hope the millions in taxes I'll pay will support a new fire house, school, road, police station in my neighborhood; here in the USA.

-- July 26, 2006 4:04 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Taylor - I'm not going to try to argue with you, or disprove what you have to say in this forum. I'm sure we could have a lively debate...just not here. You are right though, several other people seem to have used this forum to bash other people and voice their criticism of other governments and political groups. And now that I go back and read what I wrote, I apologize for the sarcasm. I, like others can get a little passionate when typing up my thoughts. I certainly agree with you about the taxes though! I suppose I look forward to paying millions in taxes, cause that will mean I have several millions more in my pocket! =)

Sara: Thank you for your words of encouragement! I know [knosis] the verse well...

-- July 26, 2006 4:59 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Tyler:

Thank you for your post. I agree.

Taylor:

While you have been quick to say you are neither Democrat or Republican, I have ascertained from reading your posts in context and without any presupposition on my part leads me to believe you are a liberal.

The general characteristics of a liberal are as follows:
1. Lack the ability to be reasoned with.
2. Spews a point of view without thoughtfully considering its merits.
3. Concerned with furthering a political agenda rather than a concern for humanity.
4. All truth is relative. Each person has his/her own personal truth.

Liberal........enough said

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 26, 2006 5:07 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Tyler...

Here...Here... Hoorah!"

Outlaw

-- July 26, 2006 5:11 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Rob.. At the dinar party let me know if you want to strap on some gloves and go a couple of rounds. You seem to be a fan of unprovoked battles.

-- July 26, 2006 5:25 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

TAYLOR said:

"I don't consider myself a Democrat or Republican, however, I don't like seeing one group slammed because they don't support rebuilding a nation when there's a nation here, that they live in, that needs alot of help. What is the real cost of this war? I just hope the millions in taxes I'll pay will support a new fire house, school, road, police station in my neighborhood; here in the USA."

Listening carefully to what you are saying, TAYLOR, I see you saying that you are not UNNECESSARILY bashing President Bush. That is, you feel that you have a legitimate beef.. and that is that you believe that he really should not be getting us into a war over there or seeking a stabilized Iraq and Middle East, but that he should instead be concerned primarily with what is going on at home. You say you belong to those who "don't support rebuilding a nation (over there, Iraq).. when there's a nation HERE.. that needs alot of help."

Can I ask you where you were when you heard the news of 911? Hello? Do you remember that event? Because, like it or not, that was the event that precipitated the invasion of Iraq. It was dead AMERICANS that made the entire US (Democrat and Republican) concerned about who the enemies were who did that and whether an attack like that might possibly happen again. They were not thousands of dead American soldiers either, combat deaths due to war (horrible as that is), but they were - dead American children, American mommies and daddies.. lots of decent and honorable people.. many of them just regular folks, just like you, going about their daily lives.

Now, President Bush looked over the intelligence reports and decided that, according to what he knew and the US Congress knew, the authorization of force against Iraq was a wise move to protect the US from such a thing happening again during his Presidency. And.. guess what? He has had 100% success rate. Not one American civilian has been murdered in cold blood by terrorists since 911 on American soil. Stop and think about it. It was a concern.. it was an issue. It WAS dealt with.. it has not happened. This is a success. A very big success, too. I know.. you will say that a lack of dead bodies isn't evidence, but it WOULD be very interesting at this time to those whose lives and loved ones would be dead by now if he hadn't authorized force and gone into Iraq.

So, since I truly believe what we are truly comparing is spending the money to secure American lives against your lack of money to buy a new firehouse, school, road, police station.. I don't think you have your priorities right. There would be a very large dead body count of American CIVILIANS within the US by now if the decision from the Powers That Be had gone the other way.. and President Bush being in the Whitehouse changed all that. For that, I am grateful. And you won't be changing my opinion anytime soon.

You asked, "What is the real cost of this war?". The questions you did not ask were:

"What would have been the cost if we didn't?" And..

"What will be the cost to us if we don't complete the mission and fully succeed?"

I have asked those questions, and to supplement my answer (which was dead Americans on American soil, in case you didn't get it in what I said above), I say this. God chose this Commander-in-chief and it was a wise choice, and I hope He will choose the next one too by giving the American people the brains to see the real questions and answers... even if those answers involve higher mental exercises involving things you cannot actually see.. like seeing the cost of preserving human lives against the cost of your schoolhouse and better road, OR seeing in your mind's eye the stack of dead (but not yet existent) Americans on American soil, or the firehouse. I pray to God they see the wisdom of the choice to preserve our lives and freedom. Then I hope they thank the soldiers for making our freedom and living possible. So from me, my thanks right now.. Thanks for all you do to all of you fighting for our freedoms - including the freedom to be free to live. :)

Sara.

-- July 26, 2006 5:27 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Tyler......

Well said....spot on....Thank You!....not just for your posting but for your service.

I liked the response Maliki gave to our Congress today....his remarks should silence the Liberal negative comments about him.

If he can now return to Baghad, with the added military help, and get it under control it will be a giant step forward.

-- July 26, 2006 5:39 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Taylor:

How shall I interpret: "You seem to be a fan of unprovoked battles."

If you are referring to the U.S. invasion of Iraq I would postulate both national security concerns and the vision to alleviate human suffering in Iraq both led to its invasion.

Concerning national security there is overwhelming evidence linking Sadam's regime with Al Qeida (may be mispelled)and his possession of WMD. In addition, I believe President Bush used the Iraqi invasion as an opportunity to counter balance the extremists in the region namely, Iran.

What possible moral question could motivate the U.S. to invade Iraq? Answer: Sadam among other atrocities gassed his own people. I believe President Bush saw the plight of the Iraqi people under Sadam and it moved him to action.

Now, if by your comments you mean a confrontation between you and I. Then, It is as I expected it to be an exhibit of another Liberal characteristic.
5. Resorting to Pugalism when disagreed with.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 26, 2006 5:59 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

TAYLOR;

This was posted on the previous page of discussion:

Bush was right on Iraq
5/11/2006

I want to draw your attention to that last line. In June of 2004, one year after the invasion of Iraq, Russian President Vladimir Putin made a stunning announcement that got virtually no coverage here in the United States. Here is an excerpt from an Associated Press report out of Kazakstan on June 19, 2004, about Putin's statement:

Russian President Vladimir Putin said Friday his government warned Washington that Saddam Hussein's regime was preparing attacks in the United States and its interests abroad -- an assertion that appears to bolster President Bush's contention that Iraq was a threat. After Sept. 11, 2001, and before the start of the military operation in Iraq, the Russian special services. . . received information that officials from Saddam's regime were preparing terrorist attacks in the United States and outside it against the U.S. military and other interests, Putin said.

Now, put yourself in President Bush's position. Three thousand Americans have recently been murdered in downtown Manhattan by jihadists, and the president of Russia tells you that Saddam is preparing terrorist attacks in the United States and outside it against the U.S. military and other interests. We now know -- from captured Iraqi documents -- that Putin was telling the truth.

Yesterday I met with a retired Israeli general, a man who has been on the frontlines of the war against terrorism for many, many years. Toward the end of the conversation, I asked him why the United States has not been hit again since September 11th. He said it could be strategy, but there is evidence that the Islamists were shocked by President Bush's strong reaction. They didn't believe we had the will to fight back. After all, the U.S. response to a string of terrorist attacks, beginning with the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center towers, was to treat each incident as an unrelated criminal offense, rather than coordinated acts of war committed by a common enemy. That mentality changed after September 11th. The Israeli general I spoke with said Bush is absolutely right that by taking the war to Islamofascists, we are preventing them from bringing the war to us. He said that was the lesson Israel has learned. Against this enemy, so totally consumed with hatred and so determined to kill, the best defense is a good offense.

My friends, as frustrating as the headlines out of Iraq may be, the alternative to a good offense is to invite more atrocities like September 11th. As we now know, that is clearly what Saddam Hussein intended. I don't know about you, but I believe President Bush made the right call by invading Iraq and removing that threat against America.

http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=12305

-- July 26, 2006 6:25 PM ∞

---

VALERIO wrote:

I THINK IT ENCOURAGING THAT THE NEW LEADER OF IRAQ HAS BEEN GIVEN THE HONOR OF REPRESENTING HIS COUNRTY TO THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. ITS MY HOPE THAT HE WILL GET MORE OPPORTUNITIES TO DO THE SAME THROUGHOUT OTHER NATIONS. THESE KINDS OF EVENTS WILL BOLSTER HIS IMAGE AS THE TRUE LEADER IN THE MINDS OF THE IRAQI PEOPLE, SO THEY MAY HAVE THE COURAGE TO IMPOWER HIM AND THE NEW GOVERNMENT TO RULE, AND CRUSH THOSE AMONG THEM WHO IMPOSE THEIR WILL THROUGH FEAR AND VIOLENCE. THIS WILL BE ACCOMPLISHED ONLY WHEN THE IRAQI PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT THIS EXPERIMENT HAS A CHANCE TO SUCCEED IN BRINGING THEM A HIGHER STANDARD OF LIVING IN A STABLE ENVIRONMENT. ITS A SHAME THE DEMOCRATES EVEN THINK OF BOYCOTING, BUT ITS NO SURPRISE THAT THEY WOULD WORK AGAINST STRENGTHENING THE NEW LEADER OF IRAQ. IT SEEMS THEY ARE MORE INTERESTED IN TRIVIAL ISSUES THAT AID THEIR ANTI BUSH CAMPAIGN, THAN THEY ARE ABOUT THE GREATER ISSUES.

-- July 26, 2006 6:46 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Iraqi PM calls for more money and troops!

By ANNE PLUMMER FLAHERTY, Associated Press Writer
19 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki appealed to Congress Wednesday to press the war in Iraq with money and troops, portraying his country as crucial to the U.S. as a front line in the war on terror and comparing violence there to the Sept. 11 attacks.

Addressing a joint meeting of Congress, al-Maliki said, "Do not imagine that this problem is solely an Iraqi problem because the terrorist front represents a threat to all free countries and free people of the world."

Lawmakers in the House chamber gave him a warm welcome, but a number of Democrats stayed away, upset by al-Maliki's stance on another Mideast crisis: He has refused to criticize Hezbollah for its attacks on Israel.

Despite tough rhetoric against terrorism in the Middle East, al-Maliki did not mention the combat between Israel and Hezbollah guerrillas that over the past two weeks has killed hundreds, devastated parts of Lebanon and seen rockets bombard northern Israel.

Later in the day, al-Maliki and President Bush ate lunch with military troops at nearby Fort Belvoir in Virginia. Bush praised him there as a man who has "helped save lives."

The speech by al-Maliki, who became prime minister two months ago, capped a two-day visit to Washington that included personal talks with Bush at the White House on Tuesday. His address came with sectarian violence in Iraq on the rise, threatening hopes by the Bush administration and lawmakers facing election this year that some U.S. troops might come home soon.

During his address, al-Maliki appealed for more aid from the United States and other nations and sought to solidify Congress' commitment to rebuilding Iraq, though he mentioned no specifics. In earlier meetings at the White House, the Iraqi leader asked for more military equipment and recommended increasing U.S. and Iraqi forces patrolling Baghdad neighborhoods. Bush agreed and said more U.S. forces would be moved into the embattled capital from other parts of Iraq.

Congress has approved nearly $300 billion to try to secure and rebuild the country more than three years after a U.S.-led invasion toppled Saddam Hussein. Some 127,000 U.S. troops remain in the region.

Without identifying exact amounts, al-Maliki lamented money that has wound up "in the hands of security contractors and foreign companies that operate with enormous profit margins," rather than in the hands of needy Iraqis.

"There needs to be a greater reliance on Iraqis and Iraqi companies with foreign aid and assistance to help us rebuild Iraq," he said.

For the rest of the story... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060726/ap_on_go_co/us_iraq;_ylt=AiT9BNkNI9aO0ifOiKSl4Ies0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3OTB1amhuBHNlYwNtdHM-

-- July 26, 2006 6:51 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

While all the different developments have taken place, the Dinar have been sitting stuck like an old molar.

From the data I can gather, the re evaluation of the Dinar is rising in pressure, it's like a pressure cooker, it builds and builds, and then pop, the lid comes.

The fact that the Dinar is going to rise in value, that I dont have any problem with, from all I can see, it will, and it will rise in the degree, investments are executed.

It doesn't mean more in Dinar value if money is invested, other then the wages earned on construction at the different construciton sites.

Investments will go from future hopes, to present time revenue, when the newly constructed wells, factories or industries are PRODUCING.

Right now, Iraq seems to be in heavy investment mode, new laws, and lures of investment profits.

True investment hysteria, will be allowed when the currency is free and floating.

Investment can (and probably will) be done before that, but it will introduce the uncertanty factor of not reeeealy knowing the exact value of the Dinar.

Of all the factors that I'm looking at, I feel fine, confident and have no problem with the investment, except on one point.

We have discussed it before, the zero loop argument.

As I have seen, we have all pretty much agreed to that it's a bad idea, but what bothers me is our own motivations for seeking long logical waterproof analyses for the issue against it.

All investors will benefit more if they dont.

We will, but to a much lesser degree benefit if they do.

I'm just sitting and pondering if we have all so deeply argued against it, that it seems clear and logic for us, that it wont happen. Therefore it wont happen.

We have had this discussion, but have they had it?

What says, that there has been a thinktank in a position of more authority than us,that have had a similar logic reasoning, and come to the conclution that a zero loop must take place.

Of all the factors, insurgency, culture, bribes and corruption, investments, religion, big and small politics, oil, and daily bread, I've read them all, and they just keep coming. It's to the point I'm getting blase'. Another statment from someone with a suit. After a while, the picture have merged, any detail added or removed will not change anything.

Nothing of that worries me in my investment, except this lonely unresolved issue, zero loop.

I have not been able to get anything on it since the issue dissapeared from the headlines a couple of weeks back.

A couple of Doctors connected with the money trade have assured it wont happen, but if they have the same motivation as us, we will benefit more if it doesnt, and is in no position to know more than you and me, I dont give it much a of trust.

All I know for sure, is:

1. the statment from the Iraq Finance minister that he wants to do it.

2. The world bank seem to be in on it in one way or the other.

3. There will be a session regarding Iraq Dinar in August/September.

Thats the three only statements, not coming from prognosticators.

With that small ammount of information, I just can't put a finger on it.

Will it, will it not?

-- July 26, 2006 9:16 PM ∞

---

Terry wrote:

Tyler, as a Vet myself I thank you for your service and observations. And this is Terry not Terri as referred to in previous post. I salute you my friend!

Pig roast ought to be fun considering all of the different points of view a the money.........
T

-- July 26, 2006 9:17 PM ∞

---

Mary Lou wrote:

Tyler-don't post much-but you have a HERE HERE from me also
Thank you

-- July 26, 2006 11:08 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Well! Well! Well....I have been on the road all week and I see we have some blood pressures up among the readers here.....regarding opinions stated...
First....I am glad we have a diverse group on the board, as it allows you to see your side better and the other sides detriments even more clearer...sometimes...the other side convinces us to consider their side as valid....not often...but you have to give A's out for trying ya know...
But regardless...they are just opinions and views expressed... as all americans should be able to do with personal attacks...
Taylors views were entertaining and I was truly impressed by the list of "Dubra's" accomplishments since birth... I never knew so much about George until now...thanks for the Infomation Taylor....
God Bless that little ole Southern Texas Boy....Now! I fully understand why I voted for him......

-- July 26, 2006 11:08 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

All,

Wooooow. I can’t leave you guys alone for a minute Look at what you were all doing while I slept. Bush bashing. Democrat bashing. What fun or pain if you are on the other side, or rebuttal of the argument going on.

As this Blog has developed over the years I have witnessed heated, and sometimes nasty arguments/discussions about virtually everything, from God to the Dinar. Very seldom have the moderators stepped in to delete attacks, and in those instances it was clearly a “Personal” attack, with the language used being unfit for consumption (retard, just doesn’t reach that level). You had to look quick before they got too, and deleted it. But overall this has been a free ranging and mind expanding experience. This is what I love about TB.

Taylor; I found your attack on GW extremely funny, as I remember reading the same about Bill Clinton when he was in office. Let’s not forget Monica, and the Astro-Turf in the back of his pickup truck. And those were the high or low points depending on your point of view in that same type article. I will also defend you, to enjoy your freedom of speech, no matter how I feel about it, even on TB (I voted for Nixon, and have never regretted it). So you won’t hear me say “Here, Here”. I spent 22+ years defending your right to say what you think, and I don’t regret a moment of the pain I experienced in that defense. If I was a soldier from another country, I might have been defending the country or politicians there, in their right to string you up. Luckily we are both Americans.

9/11, yes I remember being in Lincoln Nebraska working on a new project. Everything came to a halt, as we became mesmerized and appalled at the disaster that had befallen us. But like many, it was still distant (NY, DC, PA) and did not directly affect me. No one I knew had been killed, so it was not as personal, and instead was an attack against my beliefs and the country I had helped to defend. It wasn’t until I got over here that it became personal. I have known many of the Soldiers that have been killed, and I grieve for the loss to their families, and the nation as a whole. But that is the nature of war and they were all volunteers performing their duty, whether they agreed with the reason for being here or not. There are numerous other reasons for being here in Iraq. Below I offer just one more reason:

Most of us think about all the News Stories, with Saddam killing numerous ethnic minorities, religious groups, not to mention raising his lovely sons to continue in their father’s footsteps. Everything from “Anfal” the gassing of the Kurds, to blatantly killing anyone with a difference of opinion. Not exactly the guy you want to take home to mother. But these are all remote and historical at this point and do not affect most of us in our daily lives.

Having driven and flown over most of Iraq before the ’91 War, and now have done the same after the ’03 invasion, I offer one more reason to execute him, and invade Iraq.

Prior to ’91, Iraq produced 3/5th of the food for the Middle East. Much of the country was lush and green. Vast wheat fields in the north, extensive orchards in the center, and stupendous swamps and marshlands in the south. Take a look at any older map of Iraq and you will see the marsh’s of the southern Iraq. Remember the Garden of Eden was once here. There were of course areas of desert, but it just added to the overall beauty of the country.

Now you can’t exactly accuse Saddam of being environmentally friendly. Let’s remember the burning of the Kuwaiti Oil Fields and dumping millions of barrels of crude into the Persian Gulf to stop the infidel invaders in ’91 (not much fun to swim in it at the time, but that is a different story). What I see as a reason (just another one) to execute him and invade is the destruction of the marshlands of the south. Flying over this area today is a lesson of environmental destruction, ethnic cleansing, and desert making. As you look down from an airplane or helo, all you see is desert, and poking its way through, are the borders of what used to be farm fields or now dry water courses. To give you an idea, visualize pictures in an old National Geographic showing aerial views of the Sahara with ancient ruins barely showing through the sand. This is how most of southern Iraq now appears, as lines in the desert leading to no where, with vast stretches of empty of salt flats and sand.

What happened? Saddam is what happened. After the ’91 War, the Shiites in the south tried an uprising. Pissed Saddam off, and he stomped on them. Part of his long term stomping was to drain all the Mesopotamian Marshland, and divert the water to his friends. Along with this he destroyed the indigenous culture of the Marsh Arabs (also Shiites), even though they were not a part of the uprising. So now what was once one of the most beautiful areas of the world, with gently flowing water and 15 foot high reeds blowing in the breeze, is now a horrendous desert where nothing lives but a few desert foxes, the scorpion, and the blistering hot wind blows the sand from one point to another. Also surrounding these marsh’s were numerous farms and villages that are now gone.

I am not a ‘Green” guy by any stretch of the imagination, but living in the middle of this environmental disaster day after day gets to you. Thankfully the Iraqi’s, U.N., and the U.S. have started to re-flood this area, but it is a long and slow process, which will take decades, and probably never return the land or people to their original state. Of course this impacts me directly, so I feel it more intensely. I can see that it will revive somewhat due to a strange circumstance. Outside my office we have an Ice Chest that leaks constantly. A couple of months ago I noticed that there was movement in the always damp ground underneath. Looking closer I observed that there were actually frogs hopping around and the whole area had become its own little eco system. Birds were drinking, and we were getting plants too. Our own little terrarium. Not bad when you figure that the closest running or standing water is 20 miles away, and it has been over 10+ years since this area was marshland. Every time I do go outside, I am still stepping on the shells of the creatures that used to inhabit the marshland, or even more appalling is seeing what is left of the Marsh Arabs with their children begging for food alongside the road in the middle of this desert that Saddam created. Just one more reason to shoot the bastard and invade. Not that there weren’t enough already.

-- July 27, 2006 12:22 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,

I have proposed earlier that changes will take place when Saddam swings.

He is nothing now, but his presence have been so strong for so long, and the effects of his existence have gravely impacted so many people so deeply and harmfully, so just by his existence, he still is someting over there.

Now, when he is gone, there must be a sigh of relief, a confirmation that there is no chance he will ever come back.

What in your opinion will happen in Iraq, with the man on the street, the day it is announced he is swinging.

-- July 27, 2006 12:53 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Roger,

Jubilation and rioting depending on who you support, or who you are told to support. But I don’t think that it, at this point, is going to make a lot of difference. The Iraqi’s I know are just glad that he is no longer in power, and thus out of the picture. Almost every time that a Dictator has stood trial and then been executed or died in the past, it has had very little impact on current developments. Nothing much changed when old Slobodan died earlier this year. The main issue of contention was whether we (the U.S.) had poisoned him, and where to bury him exactly.

All,

Good news or info below. Love to snoop around the World Bank and all its entities. Especially as they are the biggest determining factor in any RV/Peg. Very quiet about Iraq for the last several months. This is the first new News that they have really posted showing facts and figures (second link). Below is the IRFFI (International Reconstruction Fund Facility for Iraq) web site under the auspices of the WB. Lots if interesting items. Think I actually got ahead of Outlaw on this one.

http://www.irffi.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/IRFFI/0,,contentMDK:20241701~hlPK:537994~menuPK:64168620~pagePK:64168627~piPK:64167475~theSitePK:491458,00.html

The best link off of that page is the 11 July Iraq Data Sheet. Up to date info on the Iraq economy and current statistics. Shows terrific improvement through the World Banks eyes. Check it out.

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/IRFFI/64168382-1092419012421/20990276/Iraqdatasheetjuly06.pdf

-- July 27, 2006 1:56 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Below from the following IMF Web Site link, showing the next date for Executive Board meeting scheduled for Iraq:

Date: August 2, 2006

Title: First and Second Reviews Under the Stand-By Arrangement, Financing Assurances Review, and Request for Waiver of Nonobservance and Applicability of Performance Criteria

http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/bc/eng/index.asp?sort=country&year=#top

Getting closer I believe and hope.

-- July 27, 2006 2:29 AM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

iLance...

Yes sir you got ahead of me on this one... Great Info! Especially love the "Key Economic Data"...

Real GDP Growth: 10.4%
Consumer Inflation is bad news at 27.0%

Good Post Lance... Keep snooping!

Outlaw

-- July 27, 2006 3:01 AM ∞

---

C1Jim wrote:

It is nice to see people up this late.

-- July 27, 2006 3:30 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Trial of Saddam Hussein enters final day
By Ahmed Rasheed July 27 2006

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - The trial of Saddam Hussein and seven co-accused of crimes against humanity entered its final day on Thursday...

U.S. officials close to the court said they expect the current trial to adjourn later on Thursday, with a verdict in October.

The maximum penalty is death and Saddam said on Wednesday that as a soldier, he deserved to meet this fate by firing squad rather than the gallows. But Iraqi law clearly states the execution must be by hanging and Saddam appointed himself as commander in chief and never actually served in the military.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060727/ts_nm/iraq_saddam_dc;_ylt=Aht_D0m7pNDzkX1CwlEeBA.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3OTB1amhuBHNlYwNtdHM-

-- July 27, 2006 6:14 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

From the Kuwait News, proof that the Big Oil Companies want to be here yesterday:

http://www.kuna.net.kw/home/Story.aspx?Language=en&DSNO=890780

C1Jim,

It's not late, it's early depending on where you are at. Sometimes think I am writing to myself.

-- July 27, 2006 7:06 AM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

AMERICAN AIRLINES #77
BOEING 757
1) Khalid Almihdhar - Possible Saudi national

-Possible resident of San Diego, California, and New York

-Alias: Sannan Al-Makki; Khalid Bin Muhammad; 'Addallah Al-Mihdhar; Khalid Mohammad Al-Saqaf

2) Majed Moqed - Possible Saudi national

-Alias: Majed M.GH Moqed; Majed Moqed, Majed Mashaan Moqed

3) Nawaf Alhazmi - Possible Saudi national

-Possible resident of Fort Lee, New Jersey; Wayne, New Jersey; San Diego, California

-Alias: Nawaf Al-Hazmi; Nawaf Al Hazmi; Nawaf M.S. Al Hazmi

4) Salem Alhazmi - Possible Saudi national

-Possible resident of Fort Lee, New Jersey; Wayne, New Jersey

5) Hani Hanjour -

-Possible resident of Phoenix, Arizona, and San Diego, California

-Alias: Hani Saleh Hanjour; Hani Saleh; Hani Hanjour, Hani Saleh H. Hanjour

AMERICAN AIRLINES #11
BOEING 767

1) Satam M.A. Al Suqami- Possible Saudi national

-Dates of birth used: June 28, 1976; Last known address: United Arab Emirates

2) Waleed M. Alshehri - Possible Saudi national

-Dates of birth used: September 13, 1974; January 1, 1976; March 3, 1976; July 8, 1977; December 20, 1978; May 11, 1979; November 5, 1979

-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida; Orlando, Florida; Daytona Beach, Florida

-Believed to be a pilot

3) Wail M. Alshehri

-Date of birth used: September 1, 1968

-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida; Newton, Massachusetts

-Believed to be a pilot

4) Mohamed Atta - Possible Egyptian national

-Date of birth used: September 1, 1968

-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida; Coral Springs, Florida; Hamburg, Germany

-Believed to be a pilot

-Alias: Mehan Atta; Mohammad El Amir; Muhammad Atta; Mohamed El Sayed; Mohamed Elsayed; Muhammad Muhammad Al Amir Awag Al Sayyid Atta; Muhammad Muhammad Al-Amir Awad Al Sayad

5) Abdulaziz Alomari - Possible Saudi national

-Dates of birth used: December 24, 1972 and May 28, 1979

-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida

-Believed to be a pilot

UNITED AIRLINES #175
BOEING 767

1) Marwan Al-Shehhi

-Date of birth used: May 9, 1978

-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida

-Believed to be a pilot

-Alias: Marwan Yusif Muhammad Rashid Al-Shehi; Marwan Yusif Muhammad Rashid Lakrab Al-Shihhi; Abu Abdullah

2) Fayez Rashid Ahmed Hassan Al Qadi Banihammad

-Possible residence(s): Delray Beach, Florida

-Alias: Fayez Ahmad; Banihammad Fayez Abu Dhabi Banihammad; Fayez Rashid Ahmed; Banihammad Fayez; Rasid Ahmed Hassen Alqadi; Abu Dhabi Banihammad

Ahmed Fayez; Faez Ahmed

3) Ahmed Alghamdi

-Alias: Ahmed Salah Alghamdi

4) Hamza Alghamdi

-Possible residence(s): Delray Beach, Florida

-Alias: Hamza Al-Ghamdi; Hamza Ghamdi; Hamzah Alghamdi;

Hamza Alghamdi Saleh

5) Mohand Alshehri

-Possible residence(s): Delray Beach, Florida

-Alias: Mohammed Alshehhi; Mohamd Alshehri; Mohald Alshehri

UNITED AIRLINES #93
BOEING 757
1) Saeed Alghamdi

-Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida

-Alias: Abdul Rahman Saed Alghamdi; Ali S Alghamdi; Al- Gamdi; Saad M.S. Al Ghamdi; Sadda Al Ghamdi; Saheed Al-Ghamdi; Seed Al Ghamdi

2) Ahmed Ibrahim A. Al Haznawi - Possible Saudi national

-Date of birth used: October 11, 1980

-Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida

-Alias: Ahmed Alhaznawi

3) Ahmed Alnami

-Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida

-Alias: Ali Ahmed Alnami; Ahmed A. Al-Nami; Ahmed Al- Nawi

4) Ziad Samir Jarrah

-Believed to be a pilot

-Alias: Zaid Jarrahi; Zaid Samr Jarrah; Ziad S. Jarrah; Ziad Jarrah Jarrat, Ziad Samir Jarrahi

The USS cole bombing in Yemen.. Ted Kazinski (Unibomber).. Terry Nicols, Timothy McVeigh, Bus bombings in England..

Do you all see 1 thing in common? None of these people were from Iraq. They never attacked us. All this terrorism was from people outside Iraq.. sometimes even our own citizens!

Why didn't we have more of a legimate fight with the Saudi's? Egypt? These countries seem to have little control over their populations. They are constantly critical of our western ways.

We bombed the hell out of Afganistan.. Are we really making any major attempt to rebulid that society?

Did any of you invest in the Afghani?

http://www.usaid.gov/stories/afghanistan/fp_afghan_money.html

The real reason... oil. Afganistan doesn't produce much that we consume. Those people have just as much potential to hurt us as any other ME nation.

If we, as a nation were interested from freeing people in tyrany.. how bout Rwanda? Congo? Angola?

I was in NY during the plane attacks. I am still here now. Don't you find it interesting that the people that were in the areas all around the attacks were Kerry supporting states in the 2004 election? We were the one's who felt the majority of the devistation. My local tax dollars are still paying for the cleanup.

After the war we were looking for someone to fight.. Someone to justify why all these innocent people had died. Along with it the US could include a hidden ajenda to line their pockets with black gold.

All I'm saying with all this nonsense over the past few days is.. As long as the hogs are getting fat, right or wrong, why not join them and enjoy the wealth.

The democrats shouldn't be bashed for not supporting this war. They just want to better the lives of all Americans through a different mechanism.

-- July 27, 2006 9:44 AM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Obviously we have differnt views over the government.. Perhaps we should get back to talking about the Dinar and upcoming fortunes.

-- July 27, 2006 9:50 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

From www.iraqieconomy.org

ICB raises interest rates from 10 to 12% - Iraq July 26, 2006 - According to the Iraqi Central Bank, the monetary inflation situation through which the Iraqi economy suffers, amounted to 52.5% at the end of May 2006 compared to the same month in 2005, Dar Al-Hayat reported.
A statement by the bank said that this situation is dealt with enabling interest rates to perform their role in optimal levels of saving and maintaining the level of revenue deposits at banks, by amendment of the approved interest rate from 10 to 12% as of mid-July present.
The results of undesirable phenomenon of economic inflation are reflected the gradual decline of purchasing power of income that are exchangeable, what led citizens to bear burdens and expenses are deducted from the consumers income to compensate the rise in value of consumer goods assets, at the same time pointing to a continued deterioration in level of savings and effect of adverse on growth in the long run, the statement added.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 27, 2006 9:56 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Another from www.iraqieconomy.org

Iraq, US sign commercial cooperation agreement July 20, 2006 - Iraq announced that it has signed a commercial cooperation agreement with the United States to move the country toward a market economy after decades of state planning, Associated Press reported.
US Commerce Secretary indicated that progress in Iraq's economy hinged on improved security.
Oil is the biggest source of income for the Iraqi government, which is struggling to curb violence and restore the supply of electricity and water.
Iraqi Trade Minister hailed the pact as a milestone.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 27, 2006 9:58 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Taylor:

I agree, lets speak about the profit to be gained from investing in the Dinar.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 27, 2006 9:59 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

TAYLOR said:

"None of these people were from Iraq. They never attacked us. All this terrorism was from people outside Iraq.. sometimes even our own citizens!"

Your argument, I presume, is that going into Iraq based on their threatening the US was unwarranted. Read:

http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2005/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_2.html#115507

http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2005/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_2.html#115509

http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2005/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_2.html#115516

Quote from the last link:
Quote:

One of the most dramatic moments in the 12 hours of recordings comes when Saddam predicts — during a meeting in the mid 1990s — a terrorist attack on the United States. "Terrorism is coming. I told the Americans a long time before August 2 and told the British as well … that in the future there will be terrorism with weapons of mass destruction." Saddam goes on to say such attacks would be difficult to stop. "In the future, what would prevent a booby-trapped car causing a nuclear explosion in Washington or a germ or a chemical one?"

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Investigation/story?id=1616996

-- July 27, 2006 2:49 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Also see: http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2005/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_2.html#116001

Quote:
"One of the most dramatic moments in the 12 hours of recordings comes when Saddam predicts — during a meeting in the mid 1990s — a terrorist attack on the United States. "Terrorism is coming. I told the Americans a long time before August 2 and told the British as well … that in the future there will be terrorism with weapons of mass destruction.""

And how do you think Saddam said those words? With concern for the welfare of the American people, or more with the attitude of "you are going to get what we want you to get, and we will be supplying these people with the weapons soon"? How would you have taken being TOLD that there would be WMD attacks on US targets by Saddam? Add to it the tape transcript of the discussion with Saddam amongst his top aides by Saddam's son in law, and I think we have a legitimate case for war. One that WAS WARRANTED.

- The tape transcripts are discussed more in the links I have given above.

-- July 27, 2006 2:51 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Lastly:

Saddam Translator: ABC Reinterpreted Tapes
Friday, Feb. 17, 2006 12:51 p.m. EST

The FBI translator who supplied the 12 hours of Saddam Hussein audiotapes excerpted by ABC's "Nightline" Wednesday night now says the network discarded his translations and went with a less threatening version of the Iraqi dictator's comments.

In the "Nightline" version of the 1996 recording, Saddam predicts that Washington, D.C., would be hit by terrorists. But he adds that Iraq would have nothing to do with the attack.

Tierney says, however, that what Saddam actually said was much more sinister. "He was discussing his intent to use chemical weapons against the United States and use proxies so it could not be traced back to Iraq," he told Hannity.

In a passage not used by "Nightline," Tierney says Saddam declares: "Terrorism is coming. ... In the future there will be terrorism with weapons of mass destruction. What if we consider this technique, with smuggling?"

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/2/17/125334.shtml

Sara.

-- July 27, 2006 2:51 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Saddam declares: "Terrorism is coming. ... In the future there will be terrorism with weapons of mass destruction. What if we consider this technique, with smuggling?"

But.. he was no threat, right?

Tierney says, "He was discussing his intent to use chemical weapons against the United States and use proxies so it could not be traced back to Iraq."

Your argument that the US was not under any threat from Saddam is baseless and unwarranted.

Sara.

-- July 27, 2006 3:00 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Tierney said Saddam, "was discussing his intent to use chemical weapons against the United States and use proxies so it could not be traced back to Iraq."

Did Saddam actually HAVE any chemical weapons?

http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#122422

Quote:

.. an Oct. 4, 2004, report by Cybercast News Service included 42 pages of Iraqi Intelligence Service memos that revealed Saddam's purchase of mustard gas and anthrax as recently as the summer of 2000 and his extensive ties to al Qaeda.

Then in June, House Intelligence Committee Chairman Peter Hoekstra (R-Mich.) and U.S. Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) released declassified portions of an intelligence report that they said confirmed Saddam's possession of weapons of mass destruction, including mustard gas. The report indicated that 500 such weapons had been destroyed by the U.S.-led coalition since 2003 and that the U.S. and its allies were racing against terrorist groups in trying to control the remaining weapons in Iraq.

"It is essential for the American people to understand that these weapons are in Iraq," Santorum said during the news conference last month.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200607/NAT20060725a.html

-- July 27, 2006 3:09 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Roger:

I recall in one of your recent post you indicated that you are sitting on $30,000,000 Dinar. That is a large amount to be holding. I can see why you are a Dinaraholic.

I am sure you are prepared for the impressive profit to be made if the Dinar is revalued between $.68 to $1.12. On the other hand, what is your strategy if the Dinar is never revalued and is never traded on the open market?

I am interested in a perspective from a person who has a lot to gain and loose from this type of investment.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 27, 2006 5:38 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Rob N;

Think all these folks will just give up.. the UN, IMF, World Bank, etc? God willing, with that kind of support, I don't see Iraq's future fortunes as being bleak, myself.

====

Iraq and UN join forces to launch Compact to support peace and reconstruction

27 July 2006 – The United Nations and the Iraqi Government announced today the formal launch of the International Compact with Iraq, a new partnership with the international community that aims to consolidate peace and pursue political, economic and social development over the next five years in the violence-torn country.

“The Compact, jointly chaired by the Government of the Republic of Iraq and the United Nations, with the support of the World Bank, will, over the next five years, bring together the international community and multilateral organizations to help Iraq achieve its national vision,” Marie Okabe, spokesperson for Secretary-General Kofi Annan, told reporters in New York.

Ms. Okabe explained that vision as that of “a united, federal and democratic country, at peace with its neighbours and itself, well on its way to sustainable economic self-sufficiency and prosperity and well integrated in its region and the world.”

Earlier this month, Mr. Malloch Brown conferred with Iraqi leaders on helping the Government set up a Preparatory Group for the Compact, with support from the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and other regional financial institutions.

According to a joint statement issued today by the UN and the Iraqi Government, the finalized Compact, including key priorities, benchmarks and commitments, will be presented by Baghdad by the end of the year.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=19323&Cr=iraq&Cr1

-- July 27, 2006 7:11 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

United Nations, Iraq jointly announce launch of five-year International Compact aimed at achieving national vision of united, federal, democratic country
Source: United Nations (UN)
Date: 27 Jul 2006

Following is the joint statement on the launch of an International Compact with Iraq, issued today in New York:

The Government of Iraq and the United Nations announce the formal launch of the International Compact with Iraq. This Compact is an initiative of the Government of Iraq for a new partnership with the international community. The Compact, jointly chaired by the Government of the Republic of Iraq and the United Nations, with the support of the World Bank, will, over the next five years, bring together the international community and multilateral organizations to help Iraq achieve its national vision.

The Government of Iraq recognizes that good governance and resolution of security and political challenges are prerequisites for progress in all other areas, including economic revival and normalization. It will, therefore, make every effort in the coming period to realize these conditions, with the assistance of regional and international partners, in order to achieve the Compact's primary focus: building a framework for Iraq's economic transformation and integration into the regional and global economy.

In their capacity as co-chairs, the Government of Iraq and the United Nations have appointed an executive committee that will also include the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and other regional financial institutions, which will manage the process towards the adoption of the Compact and beyond. The Executive Committee will assist the Government to formulate a strategy for economic regeneration and fundamental reforms for integrating Iraq within the regional and global communities.

The co-chairs will also work with a preparatory group of countries and organizations to develop the Compact via a consultative process. This group will provide support, advice and guidance on the Compact. In September, broader consultations with the international community will take place in New York at the next meeting of the United Nations General Assembly, followed by an update to finance ministers at the annual World Bank/International Monetary Fund meeting in Singapore.

It is envisaged that the finalized Compact, including key priorities, benchmarks and commitments, will be presented by the Government of Iraq by the end of 2006. We invite the international community to commit their support to the process that we have begun today and, ultimately, to join as valued partners in the International Compact with Iraq.

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/EGUA-6S4QP3?OpenDocument

-- July 27, 2006 7:15 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Roger;

You were concerned about the Zero Lop recently.
I found this article on another Dinar site, and I thought the information SG posted to be very helpful:

Some Ideas Are Discussed Over the Value of the Dinar

23 July 2006 (Baghdad: Al-Iraqiyah TV) -- Minister of Finance Bayan Jaber al Zubaidi made a suggestion .... He suggested that the best way to fight inflation, which is spiraling out of control, is to abolish several zeros from the Iraqi dinar to align it closely with the value of the US dollar. For example, if the dollar is equal to 1500 Iraqi dinar, one dollar would equal one Iraqi dinar, which would mean deleting the last three zeros from the dinar. Economists, however, believe such an idea is impractical .... Most economists (in particular, the governor of the Central Bank, who is a world expert on such matters), felt that the suggestion made by the minister did not go far enough, so the proposal has, at least for the moment, been set aside.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php/article/9594

-- July 27, 2006 9:25 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Taylor:
Politicians are for Politicians ....it does not really matter which party they belong too..
You and I as citizens call it bribery when a politician takes money to vote or block a vote for a certain group or interested party...the Politician calls it a Political Contribution from an adhoc group that has been sat up to disperse funds, that cannot be traced to the contributor...I believe the polite word is "Political Action Committee.."

Politicians want you and I to believe history as they tell it to us....Historians do there best to record it as accurately as they can, inspite of the politicians..

So for every derogatory list given for one political side, there is another list that is of equal damaging to the other...personally...I think our system works very well...except when the politicians start thinking alike...and voting on something...now that is when things really get screwed up....
I believe the best senario is to keep both side of the chambers talking, having discussions, attending meetings, participating in self appointed hearings, investigations, reviews, fighting for seats in under advisement committees, etc...we need to encourage this as long as we can...that way two things are accomplished...
the politicians get to talk about themselves and transmit to the world just how important they are...We the American people get to have them tied up in their own little world and allows the american citizens to solve the problems without all of the grandstanding...

While I consider myself more of a republican than an independent...I agree with you on one of the main reasons we went into Iraq was to secure the Oil fields, so America would not be held hostage to countries such as Iran, Syria, etc...

-- July 27, 2006 10:32 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Sara,
Hey, hey , hey, that was good news, regarding the Zero Loop thing, thanks.

Rob N.

Well, I'm in a position of no wife, or girlfriend, no kids, or dependancy from no one, Everything I have is paid, never use Credit Cards, dont even know if I have a credit card score. I dont care, because that score is a grading of how much you like to be in debt.

I gross well over six figures, and have no where to put it.

If 30 mil is much or minor probably depends on where you are.

If you have responsibilities, like house mortgage, braces for the kids, and your washing machine start making noise, youngest kid just smashed the neighbours window, and your wife is pregnant with medical complications, then you're not where I am.

If I was there I could not do it, because other responsibilities are higher priority than speculating in currency.

I'm not talking about the morality of right and wrong living one way or the other, I just want to highlight that by luck, or something, I happened to be in this particular situaton right now, with regards to Dinar investment.

I am looking for a girlfiend or wife, though, because of all the gold in the hills there none like love.

If I would lose the money, it will never RV and never be traded, then I lost it.

You put the risk in one hand, and the hope, anticipation and dreams in the other, and ask yourself if it was worth it.

If I lose it, I think I die a happy man knowing I tried.

Knowing it, and not doing it, I just wouldnt be happy with it.

When I took a decision to do it, I know I stepped out of the pack, the naysayers, the head shaking smiling eyerolling nice people that wish me to not take a step.

Perhaps its just the satisfaction that I did take a step, and it was my step.

-- July 28, 2006 1:27 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Sara,

Re zero loop thanks, like it.

Rob N

Well I dont know how to tackle this one but I'm sure going to give it a shot.

I'm in a situation where I have everything paid, I have no payments on anything I own, and I dont use CC cards, heck I dont even know if I have a credit score.I dont care. Credit score is a score of how much you like to be in debt. Most even assign status to it.

I'm alone right now, I dont have a girlfriend, wife, kids or any other dependance.

I'm grossing well over six figures/ year, and by a combination of events, luck perhaps, I'm in a situation where I can do the investment.

If I would have wife , kids, (in need of braces) the dog just digged up the neighbours garden, the washing machine start making noise, my wife pregnant with medical complications, I would be in a completely different situaton, and the responisbilities would shift from Dinars, to higher priorities.

I'm not discussing the morality of right or wrong living one way or the other, but it just happen that, there I am.

I am looking for a girlfriend or hopefully , wife, because of all the gold in the hills, there is none like love.

If I lose the Dinargame I would probably die a happy man knowing that I tried.

If I would know, but didnt try, I would probably die a less happy man.

When I decided to do it, I know I took a step out of the crowd. The naysaying negative crowd, that with their heads shaking, friendly smiling and with rolling eyes, want me to be safe and not take a step.(they're thinking of my best you know)

I just took a step anyway, and perhaps it's the satisfaction that I can say, it was my step.

-- July 28, 2006 1:57 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

What a crap, first I wrote it,
then it didnt take, so I had to rewrite it out of memory, then when it was posted, the first had posted.

-- July 28, 2006 1:59 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

One of the down sides with Wifi. If you're at a truckstop, logged in, you know that about half of the other users are on pornosites, downloading stuff.
That uses a whole lot of bits, and sometimes the pjuter slows down to the speed of molasses in a winterstorm. Sometimes the screen just freezes all over, and it looks like it's locked up. It's the fault of the dirty minds.

-- July 28, 2006 2:06 AM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

Since the zero lop is put to the side for now.....wondering what other proposals are out there? I am hoping the proposal of opening at .68 and higher as we all do I am sure......the other question is when? Hoping it at least goes on the international market soon. Any thoughts?

-- July 28, 2006 2:11 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Carl, on your post of politicians, one thing came to my mind.

Here in the US it's a two party election.

Most other democracies have many more parties, and it seems at a glance that ther is something missing here in the US.

However if you look closer at the multi party system you will find out that they go in block.

Coalisions forms almost immediately, that by almost a natural law will form a left and right block.

So of all the multiple choices you have in a multiparty system, you always end up in a for and against proposition, exactly like Conservative and Democrats.

If you have ONE party (communist party in the Soviet, or Nazi party in Germany), and propose that all choices and discussions have to be made within the party, you still dont have the full form of democracy. You must have something that stands outside of it, you must have someting that is different enough that you can give it a party name.

As long as you have a CHOICE, people will be happy.

You will have a riot if you feed an army, mule balls.

Give them a choice between mule balls, and horse tounge, and you will not get a riot, because as bad as both are, you have transfered the process of being at cause to the individual man.

Works with kids too, they dont want to go to bed, but given the choice if they want to brush their teeth or put the pyamas on first, they happily take one pick.

If the existing parties are rotten or excellent doesnt really matter, as long as there is a choice.

This , how can I say, mechanism in people, will even if the country have unstable, newly formed, not very much known, parties, probably not worth much, give that choice, and thus it will satisfy the people.

It seeems to work even when in the past countries have been deadlocked, or have such a weak and impotent regime that the goverment had to be dissolved. It has happened in some countries that an endless line of goverments had to be dissolved just months after it was installed, and the country have gone trough numerous goverments, before some stability was reached.

Still, as long as the choice is there, the people will happily go and vote again.

Mule balls or horse tounge, take a pick

-- July 28, 2006 2:41 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Roger;

That struck home - what you said about choice in the political process.
In the Middle East, it is a choice between visions of Islam, in my opinion.
Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki:

"This is a battle between true Islam, for which a person's liberty and rights constitute essential cornerstones, and terrorism, which wraps itself in a fake Islamic cloak; in reality, waging a war on Islam and Muslims and values," he told the joint meeting of Congress.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,205656,00.html

=====

The people who adhere to Islam throughout the Middle East should have the freedom to choose which vision they believe in - the terrorist vision or "true Islam.. (where) a person's liberty and rights constitute essential cornerstones."

Sara.

-- July 28, 2006 7:06 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Without a vision, the people perish.

- Proverbs 29:18

-- July 28, 2006 7:07 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Roger:
I lost your number...call me on the cell...leave me your number..

-- July 28, 2006 7:49 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

It IS a Martin Luther.. Reformation.

Roger said;

It's simply that Islam needs a Marthin Luther, they have never had one. He dignified and upheld all the Christian beliefs and was opposed to the Roman Catholic Church total power.

That lead to a reformation in both the reformed side of Christianity and the Catholic style of Christianity, and today, it's more a choice of belief rather than a powerstruggle.

Right now, it's the 'Megaphone in the ear' style Islam, and no reformation is on the horizon.

http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#122454

Roger, I think this IS a Reformation. As PM Maliki said,""This is a battle between true Islam, for which a person's liberty and rights constitute essential cornerstones, and terrorism, which wraps itself in a fake Islamic cloak; in reality, waging a war on Islam and Muslims and values."

This IS their Reformation. The vision of Islam WITH CHOICE of personal liberty and rights is a reformation just like Martin Luther who, as you said, "dignified and upheld all the Christian beliefs, and was opposed to the Roman Catholic Church total power". This democracy move in the Middle East is one which dignifies and upholds their Islamic beliefs, while being opposed to the Imam's total power over the masses through his terrorist "inquisitors". It too will lead to "more a choice of belief rather than a powerstruggle". They are attempting to allow the people of the Islamic faith to think for themselves - to no longer make the church and its doctrines the supreme rule over their lives, but to determine for themselves their own Islamic religious beliefs by safeguarding their personal liberties and rights of conscience and belief.

I agree.. it is a large thing to do, a huge goal. But it is an essential one. This is a movement, a change that is happening over there - like a wind blowing across those lands, unseen and unstoppable. The people wish to be free to choose what they want to think and believe. Those that think that automatically means they will all become whores and change their religion are deceived. It never happened with the Christian Reformation and it will not happen with this reformation either. Instead, freedom will bring a more sincere faith and a revolution within the religion of true heart adherence. It will bring tolerance for others of differing Islamic faiths and this will cause them to grow, and to live in peace and cooperation with their brothers. It should be viewed as a step forward because it should be acknowledged that mere outward forms of religion are not what God wants. He wants those who are truly believers from their hearts. True Islamics must know that to be true.

If it is so that they wish true adherents and not mere professors, they must be willing to test their mettle by allowing their adult populations the full privileges of citizenship - including the freedom to choose their beliefs (within the confines of that which is not criminal). Islamics over here say they love the freedoms they have here. They are free to believe and practice their religion and do not have to fear any death squads forcing the will of their Imams on them. That is all that is being fought for in the Middle East - the ability to believe and practice the many forms of religious belief within Islam from their hearts and without coersion, within the confines of respect for a person's liberty, rights and dignity.

It is not an East-West conflict. It is a conflict from within Islam itself - one between the totalitarianism of Imam-ruled Islam and Islamic beliefs which uphold the freedom of conscience while safeguarding life and freedom of choice. It is a reformation because to attain to that degree of religious freedom they must DISagree with the Church's exercise of total power. That is what this "war on terror" is about - stopping the terror which comes when any church or group becomes absolutely powerful over men's lives. It happened with the Inquisition... it is happening with these terrorist attacks. It is all about control and freedom - the freedom to think, to speak, to believe and to adhere to your own religious convictions before God. What it comes down to is this: To truly be free - you must allow others the right to disagree with you peacefully. The Catholic Church had to learn that lesson - now the Imams and the terrorists carrying out their wills are learning it.

Sara.

-- July 28, 2006 9:04 AM ∞

---

Mary Lou wrote:

23 July 2006 (Baghdad: Al-Iraqiyah TV)
Some Ideas Are Discussed Over the Value of the Dinar Iraq TV St. St. , Al Sabah 23.7 Today Iraq is facing the most difficult problems its economy has ever had to confront. Apart from the violence and terror, which seem endless, and the deterioration of the electric sector and fuel products market (the two main pillars of Iraq¹s economy) extra hardships are being added to an already embattled economy. The price of all items is increasing beyond any acceptable logic with the excuse always being that it is the price of electricity and transportation that are driving inflation. Within this atmosphere of uncertainty and doubt, Minister of Finance Bayan Jaber al Zubaidi made a suggestion which had an enormous impact on those following economic trends in Iraq. He suggested that the best way to fight inflation, which is spiraling out of control, is to abolish several zeros from the Iraqi dinar to align it closely with the value of the US dollar. For example, if the dollar is equal to 1500 Iraqi dinar, one dollar would equal one Iraqi dinar, which would mean deleting the last three zeros from the dinar. Economists, however, believe such an idea is impractical because with an economy such as Iraq¹s with its large foreign debt (estimated in tens of billions -- the bulk of which has already been written off), a 40% rate of unemployment, a poor infrastructure, and an urgent need for tens of billions of dollars to rebuild its oil sector (the prime underpinning of the country¹s economy and major hard currency earner) chances for success are very slim. The premise for the idea was based on the fact that some countries experiencing a similar state of affairs implemented such a course of action and were successful in controlling their levels of inflation. Turkey, which managed to control its inflation by abolishing six zeros from its circulating currency, was cited as an example. Most economists (in particular, the governor of the Central Bank, who is a world expert on such matters), however, felt that the suggestion made by the minister did not go far enough, so the proposal has, at least for the moment, been set aside.

-- July 28, 2006 9:12 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

UN, Iraq launch joint initiative to support peace, reconstruction

The United Nations and the Iraqi government launched on Thursday a joint initiative to garner international support for the violence-torn country's reconstruction over the next five years.

Marie Okabe, spokesperson for Secretary-General Kofi Annan, explained that vision as that of "a united, federal and democratic country, at peace with its neighbors and itself, well on its way to sustainable economic self-sufficiency and prosperity and well integrated in its region and the world."

An executive committee appointed by the UN and Iraq will be tasked to manage the process towards the adoption of the compact and formulate a strategy for economic development and reforms to integrate Iraq within the regional and global communities.

The UN and Iraq will also work with interested groups and nations, and then hold broader talks with the international community in New York in September at the next meeting of the UN General Assembly, followed by an update to finance ministers at the annual World Bank/International Monetary Fund meeting in Singapore.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200607/28/eng20060728_287582.html

-- July 28, 2006 9:31 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

The Democrats' Extremist Position on Iraq
David Limbaugh
Friday, July 28, 2006

if the Democrats weren't so preprogrammed to oppose all things Iraq all the time, they might have been heartened by the prime minister's message to Congress: his affirmation of Iraq's commitment to democracy, his strong denunciation of terrorism, his expressions of gratitude to the United States, and his earnest plea that we not abandon our mission.

But considering the anti-Iraq corner in which Democrats have placed themselves, it would be difficult for them to applaud al Maliki's optimism, much less his confirmation that Iraq is the front line in the war on terror.

While Sen. Durbin said some parts of the prime minister's speech were encouraging, he couldn't pass up the opportunity to condemn America's losses and expenditures in Iraq and to chide Iraq for not doing enough to take over the primary role in defending itself. Most offensively, he scolded Iraqis for not demonstrating a sufficient willingness to demonstrate that they are willing to die for their own cause. Presumably Durbin is unaware of the Iraqi elections, where Iraqi voters risked their lives to participate, and of the huge number of Iraqi casualties in this war.

Ask yourselves: Why are Democrats so determined to slug the prime minister in the gut and discourage and insult the Iraqis, who are caught in a life-threatening struggle for freedom, by refusing to let stand – even for a few brief diplomatic moments – al Maliki's encouraging words about Iraqi progress?

Simple: Democrats have staked out their position on Iraq, and they will try to destroy anything or anyone who gets in their way.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/7/27/233927.shtml

-- July 28, 2006 9:51 AM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

Sara....what other ideas do you think are being discussed to raise the value of the Iraqi Dinar?.....since the zero lop is set to the side for the moment?

-- July 28, 2006 10:02 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Several posts ago I stated my intent on purchasing more Dinar. I made the purchase last evening. I added an additional 2,000,000 dinars.

We have discussed previously the amount of Dinar in circulation. I am now interested in knowing what some of you think regarding the number of people invested or investing in the Dinar? For our discussion, lets exclude the big players. I am referring to regular people like you and me.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 28, 2006 10:02 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Bob;

Regarding raising the Dinar value, I would have to say that I agree with a previous post by Taxmama:

Dr. Qaddouri has repeatedly said, along with my dealer who has extensive contacts in Iraq, that when the peg happens, it will be sudden. There will be no big announcement that would cause a huge run on the Dinar. It will be an immediate event.

http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#122214

-- July 28, 2006 10:08 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

I thought this post by Jerry on IIF so encouraging concerning the Dinar investment that I felt it worthwhile putting a referring url to it:

http://www.investorsiraq.com/iraqi-government-society-forum/19775-iraq-un-postpone-launch-economic-programme.html#post204706

-- July 28, 2006 10:49 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Carl,
dont worry, I have lost my own number too, :) ,I'll get back to you sometime during the weekend, little bit on the bizz side for the moment.

-- July 28, 2006 11:31 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

SOLICITED/UNSOLICITED COMMENTS, RUMORS & RAW DATA

- The Dinar is a good investment and will give us all a good payday. When? All of our peanut brain power cannot solve that part of the puzzle at this point.

- Roger probably curses violently for several minutes every time he fuels up his big 18 wheeler.

- I was born and raised in the “oil patch” and currently still involved in it as a career. Just remember….the oil companies aren’t the problem you think they are.

- Maliki just got a new bumper sticker for his pick-up truck “Shi’ite Happens”.

- When we finish off the terrorists…..let’s take on the Liberal press and Democrats who are also trying to tear down our country.

- The Islamic Terrorists are a rare breed of ignorance and arrogance who are slowly but surely being wiped off the face of the planet.

- If our investment in the Dinar goes South and doesn’t RV at a higher value….not to worry….we can still sell it to collectors on e-bay and make a profit.

- If you haven’t made plans on how you’re going to invest your profit from the Dinar…..start now!!!

- When we get to the island, and before we start the pig roast, we need a show of hands to elect Sara as Mayor so our little piece of paradise will stay on a positive course. And Carl would make an outstanding law enforcement guru.

- I’ve been buying Dinar since I started in Iraq about July ’04. Just purchased another 2 mill. last week to bring my stash up to 33 mill. No real amazing reason other than 33 is a lucky number for me.

- It might surprise everybody how few people are actually buying Dinar. In my circle of friends….maybe one in a hundred.

- Al-Warka Bank truly does pay interest on their accounts. So I’m already making money on my investment……on paper anyway….yes I do subscribe to the “bird in hand” theory. I’ll feel better when I can get a debit card from them.

- I spent more than twenty years living and working in the Middle East and never did like the term “bucharah inshalla”….tomorrow if Allah is willing.

-- July 28, 2006 11:34 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Sara.....

Your ref. to the posting By Jerry from the other forum was really good reading....thanks :)

-- July 28, 2006 11:53 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Okie;

You are welcome.
I enjoyed your comments. :)

Oh, by the way, did you know that there was a SONG that went with the Andy Griffith show theme?

http://www.garagebuilt.com/media/Comedy_-_Andy_Griffith_-_The_fishing_Hole.mp3

Sara.

-- July 28, 2006 12:25 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Sara....

The theme is locked in my brain cells but I had never heard the song before.....Thanks for sharing it with me. :)

-- July 28, 2006 2:42 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

YW, Okie.

Yes, it is a piece of American historical memorabilia - a bit like a Norman Rockwell, that song. I just found it interesting it was a song and not, like you said, a theme locked in your brain cells. :)

http://www.gaseenterprise.com/07194%20Coca%20Cola%20Norman%20Rockwell.jpg

http://www.poster.net/rockwell-norman/rockwell-norman-the-runaway-2105387.jpg

http://www.projo.com/seasonal/thanksgiving/photos/rockwell.jpg

http://galeriegigi.com/artwork_images/Rockwellastudyforthedo.jpg

Sara.

-- July 28, 2006 3:16 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Several posts ago I stated my intent on purchasing more Dinar. I made the purchase last evening. I added an additional 2,000,000 dinars.

We have discussed previously the amount of Dinar in circulation. I am now interested in knowing what some of you think regarding the number of people invested or investing in the Dinar? For our discussion, lets exclude the big players. I am referring to regular people like you and me.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 28, 2006 10:02 AM

Hi Rob. Just my 2 cents worth. I live in England and so far do not personally know of anyone else who is switched on to Dinars, beside 1 friend who invested after I told him about it.

On Ebay.co.uk, there are typically 500-550 auctions running over the course of the week. The vast majority of these are for relatively low amounts. I presume most of the sellers are either dealers who are trying to make a big mark-up on smaller amounts, or are just ordinary folk who have bought a million or two and are reselling for a profit.

A million dinars is still selling at around £450-500 per million.

A quick search on completed listings with '1 million dinars' in the title, ending in the last 2 weeks revealed just 18 million dinars sold. Most of the auctions were for 1/4 million dinars.

I would guess that there are substantially more people in the U.S. that have invested, due to the larger population and more service personnel 'in the know' about the economics of Iraq.

None of this probably helps much, but just chipping in my bit.

Personally, I have 4 months wages invested in Dinars, but then I don't get paid a lot! I'm not banking on a large RV, just going with the theory that the more I have invested, the larger the potential return. If I double my money, I'm happy. It would make a significant, but not huge difference to my life. Anything more is a bonus, which I have not allowed myself to hypothetically spend. In the mean-time, day to day life goes on, with a bit of an investment hobby to give me interest and hope of a better future. I liken it to buying a pre-paid lottery ticket that is valid for as long as I hold the cash. I check-in here regularly to see if my numbers have come in yet. I just like the odds better and just for the record, I haven't bought a lottery ticket in months.

-- July 28, 2006 3:33 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

After purchasing the additional 2,000,000 Dinars this is the email I receive in confirmation of my payment. A disclaimer: this is one person's opinion. She is not perdicting a specific time when the Dinar hits the foreign exchange market. I thought it interesting.

"Dear Rob,
No problem :)! I'll make sure to ship there for you. If you decide you want more, let me know. I order from the Middle East, and on larger orders, I sell at a significant discount. I may only be able to get 1, possibly 2 more orders in before the Dinar is expected to go on the Foreign Exchange."
God Bless,
Veronica

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 28, 2006 3:42 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

JUST AS I TOLD YOU....
Back in April, I made a prediction that Iran would start to make some moves but to look at around June for the significant ones....I was wrong!....by about 10 days....Iran started making their move the first week of July with the hit on the Iraeli soldiers in the Gaza Strip.....then followed it up with the second strike in Lebanon...The move...create an incident that will cause Israel to strike back....with this accomplished, then start to feed the Arab masses that this is a strike on the Arab people of the Middle East...get some help from Sadr in Iraq....Syria....continue to say... say it often enough ...long enough...continuous enough and the arab, european and western press will pick up the cry for you....the unification "Banner of Arab Nationality" will be flown high...and shouted to the heavens at all mosque...and public gatherings...
When the pressure gets to great the moderates will start to join in...not because they want too...but because they have too...

Today 7-28-06 the Saudi Royal Family and King Abdullah II of Jordan are starting to distance themselves from President Bush...the arab papers have now picked up the cry with cartoons, blogs, and editorials...praising hezbollah....Egypt papers are now printing stories about the bravery of the hezbollah fighters...the hezbollah leader is now being compared to President Naser of Eqypt....Even Al Qaeda who is Sunni based and hates the Shiites have now gotten into the act...by saying they are coming to the aid of the Hezballoh...
The Middle Eastern Papers are protraying Secretary Rice as cold and uncaring..as she used words of an Israeli Leader Shimon Peres to describe what was happening at a Arab Press Conference...
(I believe that might have been the right person to quote, but I maybe she should have picked a different audience)

Will this end any time soon?
Not if Iran has anything to do with it....they are just getting started here....the intent is to inflame the entire region....have the Iraqi Government turn on the Coalition and kick the Americans out....Iran will now have control of Iraq...with an expansion of Iran into a larger Persian Empire.....jumping into the pit with the bulldogs...to help kill the infidels will not save the Saudi family, the Jordan Kingdom or Egypt Monarchy....if Iran is successful in this effort...they will fall like dominoes with a 2-4 year period...
I assure you the middle east will not be the same at the end of the next 2 years...the big fire works will come in spring or summer of 2007...

-- July 28, 2006 4:00 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Rob N...

In my opinion she was just "Pumping and Dumping". There is WAY too much going on in the ME right now for a RV... Trust me!

Outlaw

-- July 28, 2006 4:16 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Thanks for sharing that Rob N. :)

Maybe it will resolve itself sooner, rather than later..

Sara.

===

Bush, Blair call for Mideast cease-fire
Multinational force proposed for southern Lebanon

Friday, July 28, 2006; Posted: 3:18 p.m. EDT (19:18 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair announced Friday their support for a U.N. cease-fire resolution to end the Mideast crisis and a multinational force to stabilize southern Lebanon.

The leaders said the force would help Lebanese troops take control of the south, where the Hezbollah militia is firing rockets into Israel and Israeli soldiers are striking Hezbollah positions.

Their plan could be taken up by the United Nations as early as Monday, the leaders said.

Bush said he planned to appeal to the United Nations "for a Chapter 7 resolution setting out a clear framework for cessation of hostilities on an urgent basis, and mandating the multinational force."

British diplomats have been talking about a cease-fire followed by deployment of an international border force, CNN's Robin Oakley reported. Then a second stage would begin, involving a larger border force that would also help with disarming Hezbollah and establishing a greater role for Lebanese government forces.

After meeting with Bush, Blair is to travel to California -- the first official visit to the state by a sitting prime minister, according to the British consulate in San Francisco. He will discuss issues such as globalization, trade and biotechnology.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/28/us.britain/index.html

-- July 28, 2006 5:23 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Sara,

Re:Martin Luther and reformation.

Very good posting of yours, on the issue.

There is changes happening over there, but it doesn't seem to come from within Islam, but rather from social reform.

That way, might as well be a working way, with the caveat that, as the reforms are coming from social reforms, rather than religious reforms, the reforms will be seen as hostile and threatening.

Not that I think tthere would be any difference. If there was a Islamic Martin Luther standing up, nailing his thesis on the door of a mosk, breaking with the established Islamic ways, ther would still be a war, or hostilities coming out of it.

Europe was entrenched in war for 30 years on this issue, Gustavus the II, died on the foggy battle field in Lutzen. He was the flagbearer for the protestant movement, but the movement survived and was thoroughly establised.

Already in the next generation, protestantism or catholisism was a choice of faith.

Gustavus II's daughter, now a Queen, after inheriting the swedish throne, switched from protestant to catholic, abdicated and went to Rome as a nun.

(as a triumph to that, the Vatikan still today have the Swedish flags colors on their coat of armor, blue, with a yellow cross)

The Islam will feel a revolution in their own ranks, , but as the social revolution is taking place right now, it's probably too late for the internal reform, and the reformation will take place through social enlightement instead.

Either way, as long as they change to the better, we're all happy, and most probably themselves too, when everything is said and done.

-- July 28, 2006 7:01 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

This looks very positive.....The "big boys" are getting ready to move in.....I like it!!!

=========================================================

Energy - Oil & Gas

Iraq may sign oil deals before oil law enacted

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

28 July 2006
Iraq could sign joint ventures with international oil companies even before the nation's parliament enacts a long-awaited hydrocarbon law, Iraq's oil minister said.

Iraq's oil minister, Hussain Al Shahristani, met with representatives from international oil companies, including Exxon Mobil Corporation, BP Plc, Shell Oil Company and Chevron Corporation, according to a list provided by the US Energy Department.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php?refid=DH-S-28-07-2006&article=9604

-- July 28, 2006 7:20 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

The shoot-out at the OK corral will be very soon and I don't believe Al-Sadr will be standing after the smoke clears......

==========================================================

More troops in Baghdad brings risk of showdown
By ROBERT H. REID
The Associated Press

BAGHDAD, Iraq — Putting more U.S. soldiers in the streets of Baghdad risks a new showdown with a radical anti-American cleric who has modeled his movement after Lebanon’s Hezbollah guerrillas.

Muqtada al-Sadr’s Mahdi Army has re-emerged as a key force in the majority Shiite community after suffering substantial losses during two uprisings against the U.S. military in 2004. Sunni Arabs believe the militia is responsible for kidnapping and killing thousands of Sunnis since the Feb. 22 bombing of a Shiite shrine.

Al-Sadr’s black-clad followers insist they simply protect Shiite communities that have suffered horrific losses at the hands of Sunni insurgents and religious extremists such as al-Qaida in Iraq.

U.S. officials believe disbanding Shiite and Sunni armed groups is essential to curbing the sectarian violence threatening the government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and U.S. plans for removing substantial numbers of troops before U.S. congressional elections in November.

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/nation/15131893.htm

-- July 28, 2006 7:51 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Okie!
Regarding Sadr....I hope we all will be singing soon..."another one bites the dust"...now that will be positive Iraqi governmental progress I can relate too...

We need to dispatch him and his commanders to those 72 Virgins as quickly as possible...

-- July 28, 2006 8:12 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

MILITIAS gOD bLESS THEM...

The outgoing British Ambassador stated today it is up to the Iraqi People as to whether they slip into civil war or keep the course...there are times when he has been highly optimistic then he slips into pessimism...but now he really does not know...
William Patey stated as of now the Iraqi people no longer have confidence in their police force. We know that the police are taking orders from the Militia leaders and participating in death squads. They need to be weeded out, and prosecuted...but that will remain to be seen...

One Police Captain stated, that he and a lot of his officers are thinking about resigning as they are told daily by the politicians to release individuals that he knows are criminals. Inside a local police station, an iraqi translator for the soldiers was verbally attacked by a police officer, and told several times to remove his mask. He told the soldiers the police station was full of milita, and if he took off his mask they would hunt him down and kill him.

A Military Officer was told to conduct a new joint patrol with the Iraqi police, however, the local police commander refused to take the order, and seemed in no hurry to implement the joint patrol. The Iraqi individuals who work at the military bases are continually under death threats, and many don't show up for work from intimidation.

The Iraqi Soldiers are under constant threats and intimidation...so it is not surprising many desert the unit...

This gives us some indication of the weak Police infrastructure and the confidence given the milita's to protect instead of the governmental agencies...

This is a Iranian structured method to undermine the new government's internal security, and give more power to Sadr and his Iranian handlers...

Lt. Gen Fry stated, we are expecting the violence to get worse in the weeks to come.

To think for less than $2.00 and a recoil on a sniper's shoulder....Sdar could be put in the classification of "Another one Gone"

As Katie Couric ask the other day of a Marine Sniper in Iraq....What do you feel when you shoot a insurgent....the marine hesitated ...and then stated flatly looking into her quisitive face..
"RECOIL"

-- July 28, 2006 11:39 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

All,

Having read all of the above it appears that some are comparing apples to oranges again, concerning the Dinar. Security being the apples and Dinar being the oranges. I believe that they are one in the same.

Oranges first:

If you (the Iraqi Government) raise the value of the Dinar, you in fact help to cut inflation overall. You may have an initial rise in inflation, but overall increasing the value of the monetary unit, by adjusting it to its international market value, will give the common Iraqi greater purchasing power. Right now the value of the IQD is being kept artificially low by the CBI as one tool to manage inflation. This is a hold-over from the good old CPA that helped to stabilize the economy during those first uncertain years of the war when there was “NO” economy. Now many years later there is an economy that is improving every day. A tremendous future is coming with both the Foreign Investment Law and Hydrocarbon Law soon to be passed. These laws will in the out years infuse the Iraqi economy with Trillions of dollars, and lower unemployment. There are also 20+ government owned sectors/companies that will be for sale on the market also. The economy is already exploding prior to these Laws being enacted. Agriculture and manufacturing exports already exceed pre-war totals, with the oil sector is soon to reach that level. The big difference now, is the money is going to the government and companies instead of Saddam’s pockets. No longer are exports smuggled with the extra cost involved, but are instead freely moved in an open market economy. Another reason that inflation is raising, is the cost’s that were covered by the government or U.N., pre-war are now borne by the people; fuel & food. This is why I think raising the value of the IQD will actually lower inflation, and the next step the CBI has to take. Make the money worth more, and the disparity between costs and monetary value will disappear.

Apples second:

The MSM leads with it bleeds nightly. Granted the 100+ killed daily is horrendous, along with the displacement of ethnic and religious groups running away to avoid the violence. But is it that bad overall? I think not, as it is only the bad that you see on the tube or read in the press. No where do you see that the economy comes to a halt, or businesses close forever. Even in Sadr City after a bombing or drive-by, the shops re-open and business continues within hours if not the next day. Power is what the Militias and the Imam’s want, and are using unemployed boys and men to foment the violence for their own agendas. Take away their guns, and put them in jail like the common criminals they are, or put them to work with a decent wage, and the security will improve. This is all about power, and not religion. Religion is just the excuse.

Fruit Salad:

Security is the Economy. Make the IQD something of value that is sought after by the common Iraqi with real purchasing power, and that person will have to decide between carrying a rifle, or working to purchase a new car. Let’s see: in one hand carrying a rifle and having people shoot back at me, or on the other hand driving a new car or supporting my family. Simplistic, maybe, but a majority of the Iraqi’s will probably go for the “or”. After all being a terrorist doesn’t pay very well, and a new car might actually get me a virgin without having to die first.

Whipped Cream on top:

“The economy, stupid”
James Carville Democratic strategist for Bill Clinton,1992 presidential election. See, even the Democrats can get it right sometimes.

-- July 29, 2006 1:26 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Not good news for anyone, especially if you bank with Warka.

Violence in Iraq Is Creating Chaos in Bank System, link below:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/29/world/middleeast/29banks.html?hp&ex=1154232000&en=783451bf3cd59efd&ei=5094&partner=homepage

-- July 29, 2006 3:50 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Carl....

Your thoughts regarding the Police in Baghdad are right on....any Government has a choice...they can control the bad guys or let the bad guys control them. Sadr has been a bad boy too long...he needs to be captured or killed. This will be the true test for Maliki to see if he will deal with the Sunni and Shi'ite militias the same.

-- July 29, 2006 9:35 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Hezbollah Politicians Back Peace Package
By SAM F. GHATTAS
The Associated Press
Friday, July 28, 2006; 10:57 PM

BEIRUT, Lebanon -- Hezbollah politicians, while expressing reservations, have joined their critics in the government in agreeing to a peace package that includes strengthening an international force in south Lebanon and disarming the guerrillas, the government said.

The agreement _ reached after a heated six-hour Cabinet meeting _ was the first time that Hezbollah has signed onto a proposal for ending the crisis that includes the deploying of international forces.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/28/AR2006072801552.html

-- July 29, 2006 10:26 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Lance....

When I first heard the news about Warka Bank it got my attention and tightened up my pucker string for sure. I didn't relax until my friends in Baghdad called the bank and confirmed that the Bank itself was not robbed. Some one knocked off an armoured truck on the way to Warka from the CBI.
My friends also have money in Warka and their advice to me was to "chill out".....everything is OK.

-- July 29, 2006 11:04 AM ∞

---

Ron wrote:

Lance I like and agree some what to what you posted.The lives that are lost every day to the radicals is sad.I do not see the one who gives the orders to blow yourself and otherwsup,doing any of the straping on of bombs and pulling of the cord.I hope that the leaders in Iraq sort this out soon.good luck to all and Iraq.

-- July 29, 2006 12:03 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Okie,

I take 300 gal, fuelmileage of 5-7 miles/gal depending on weight,rest you can figure out.

Went by a truckers lounge in a truckstop some weeks ago, the old trucking movie "Smokie and the Bandit" was playing.

One scene, that was not funny then, gave a belly laugh now, a scene with a gas station, and a sign flashing by.

DIESEL 0.42

-- July 29, 2006 12:24 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Some excellent posts recently. Thanks. :)

I don't think Iran can make a regional war without the others.

Some are proposing that Iran will escalate the situation and cause the entire region to be engulfed in war. Although IRAN is that suicidal, I don't think too many of their neighbors in the neighborhood are willing to commit suicide with Iran and therefore I think that a diplomatic solution may be the only consensus which can be reached if there is little backing for Iran's plans.

Earlier I quoted an article about the silent majority not staying silent anymore in the Middle East. It said, in part:

Rarely have I seen such an uprising, indeed an intifada, against those little turbaned, bearded men across the Muslim landscape as the one that took place last week. The leader of Hezbollah, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, received a resounding "no" to pulling 350 million Arabs into a war with Israel on his clerical coattails.

The collective "nyet" was spoken by presidents, emirs, and kings at the highest level of government in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Bahrain, Qatar, Jordan, Morocco, and at the Arab League's meeting of 22 foreign ministers in Cairo on Saturday. But it was even louder from pundits and ordinary people.

===end of quote===

If all the others in the region are saying NO.. I don't think Iran by itself can embroil the entire region in a war.

Perhaps that is why the Hezbollah have now accepted the proposal for a ceasefire.

I am still optimistic that things will work out well.
A couple of days back there was this interesting comment:

Iraq oil minister calls for more foreign investment
Business // Thursday, July 27, 2006

Iraq's oil minister Hussein al-Shahristani said that boosting foreign investment is vital to increasing the country's oil output as he met in Washington with executives from major energy groups.

He added that he believes Iraq could become the world's second largest oil producer in the next couple of years "and perhaps the largest producer of crude oil in 10-15 years time despite what the country's going through now."

http://www.todayonline.com/articles/132987.asp

-- July 29, 2006 12:59 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Insanity and the trap.

Our common interest is the Dinar, hopefully it will give us anothr life, and take us from where we are now, to a place filled with milk and honey.

That will automaticly pull our view to Iraq, it's problems, it's future, and it's possibilities.

There we see sanity and insanity.

Sanity follws logic reason and can be understood.

Insanity can by definition never be understood other than describing the phenomenon, it's not logic, and therefore it has in itself no solution.

There is no difference in insanity if it is expressed by one single person, chewing on a carpet, citing spiders, marsmen and conspiracies, or a group of people acting under the same banner.

A sane person, trying to understand insanity, will if he accept the insane, himself be an insane, as he has accepted a ladder or, train of thoughts that has no logic to it.

Now, I consider sanity and insanity in that sense that it has a sliding scale of comprehension.

You left the ice cream on the desktop counter overnight. By definition that was not sane, but no need for the Prozac.

If you KNOW what will help, you KNOW what to do and you KNOW what not to do in order for the society to be stable, prospeous and happy. You have learned it as a child, and its so obvious it is true because you practice this everyday without effort.

Then its so frustrating to helplessly from a distance, trying to understand an insane situation.

I'm sure youve seen pictures or videos from a slum somewhere in Brazil or something. The first thing that comes to mind is how EASY it is to fix this,if you were living there. Clean up a bit, get water, some paint on the houses, get rid of the rats, move, talk with someone, get the kids in bed in the evening.

I'm sure I could pick any of you, and put you in a slum environment, and if I would say," -This is where you will live now."

You are coming from a SANE environment and have a lot more knowledge of what causes end effects there are.

After a while, you would not have that slum, even if I would put you there penniless to start up with.

You would work your self up.

You wouldnt dwell on the insanity, howcome it is insane, how come nothing works, howcome ....you would just PUT SANITY there.

As daily news from Iraq , it's endless killings , its blodshed, and headshots victims are so closely related to the Dinar investment, it's part of it , in a sense, even though it is INSANE.

TV and media wants their rubbernecking audience to get chocked, to keep their ratings, so the reports from there, circles around the insane aspect of things.

The more that stuff is shuffled into our eyes, the more we are trying to SOLVE INSANITY, the more down we're getting for each serving, because we could'nt come up with a sane solution.

The mind looooooove problems, if you dont have enough of them you'll get them.

I had one of those very early pocket calculators, from the 70's, before they we're refined.

8 divided by 0 can't be done, because you can't divide something with nothing. The calculator had its order, to divide, but couldnt divide.

So it went on an endless loop of calculations.

INSANITY CAN'T BE UNDERSTOOD BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING THERE TO UNDERSTAND.

From Iraq, comes this garbled flood of information, mixed sanity and insanity, and in the flood of things, we have to pick the nuggets, and connect the dots, but as soon as we pick fools gold, the dots will not come together.

This is the trap that I've seen with myself regarding this Dinar train.

In the aspects of Dinars, I try to pick out any and every piece of information about it, but as I'm sitting with fixed attention towards that end of the world, the dish served is an overwhelming ammount of insanity.

If I just look at it too much, try to get into it too much, and try to solve all the problems around it too much, I just got sucked into an unsolvable problem, I have no way of solving from the position I am in.

The solution, turn the TV off, go fishing, fix your clutch, have a happy hour with your kids, and try to solve the problem with that fuse that always blows.

I do like this blog very much, I have been able to from this site, get a very very good picture of the Dinar and I must say, due to some time restrictions on my part, I have been riding piggyback on others research, saving me a lot of time, (Sara always stand out).

I have been able to pick my nuggets here, and can to that degree, avoid seing endless media carnage, just trying to get the info.

True, the carnage and deaths, is part of the picture, and must be discussed, but here it is part of the overall picture and put in the right perspective.

Keep on trucking and..dont eat yellow snow.

-- July 29, 2006 2:02 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

I liked these definitions best..

Main Entry: in·san·i·ty

a : a disease, defect, or condition of the mind that renders one unable to understand the nature of a criminal act or the fact that it is wrong or to conform one's conduct to the requirements of the law being violated.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/insanity

Law

The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible.
The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.
A code of principles based on morality, conscience, or nature.
Legal document setting forth rules governing a particular kind of activity; "there is a law against kidnapping".
The collection of rules imposed by authority; "civilization presupposes respect for the law".
A rule or body of rules of conduct inherent in human nature and essential to or binding upon human society [syn: natural law].
The force of policemen and officers; "the law came looking for him" [syn: police, police force, constabulary].

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/law

I would say that what we are seeing is a violation of the law, including specifically this kind of law (also from the above url):

The Law of Nature is the will of God as to human conduct,
founded on the moral difference of things, and discoverable by natural light
(Rom. 1:20; 2:14, 15). This law binds all men at all times. It is generally
designated by the term CONSCIENCE, or the capacity of being influenced by the
moral relations of things.

Those whom we see committing these violations of the law are violating the natural capacity inherent in all men which we call the human conscience - being "unable to understand the nature of a criminal act or the fact that it is wrong or to conform one's conduct to the requirements of the law being violated." according to the definition of INSANE.

Perhaps they are like these people, who have their consciences SEARED (so that they are insensible):

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Note the relation between wrong doctrines (teachings which are considered sinister, wicked, evil or of the devil because of the outcome of holding those beliefs) and seared consciences.. so as to cause "a... CONDITION OF THE MIND that renders one UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND the nature of a criminal act or the fact THAT IT IS WRONG or to conform one's conduct to the requirements of the law being violated."

Sometimes it helps to contemplate and understand, even if we cannot change the insanity, Roger.

Perhaps those with the ability to understand and who are in a position of ability can make a difference by offering teachings which do not lead to insanity... hence my belief we are seeing a fight within Islam between that which respects human rights/liberties and that which does not. Anyone not insane understands that those rights should be respected..

Sara.

-- July 29, 2006 2:53 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Roger wrote:

Okie,

I take 300 gal, fuelmileage of 5-7 miles/gal depending on weight,rest you can figure out.

Went by a truckers lounge in a truckstop some weeks ago, the old trucking movie "Smokie and the Bandit" was playing.

One scene, that was not funny then, gave a belly laugh now, a scene with a gas station, and a sign flashing by.

DIESEL 0.42
- - - - -

Roger: Thank your lucky stars you are not a trucker over in England. Diesel is currently around £0.98 / Litre or equivalent to $8.01 / Gallon. That would put a dent in your pocket!

70% of that is tax.

Granted, England is a bit smaller to get around :o)

-- July 29, 2006 3:04 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Nelly B investor,

I've been there, took a two months Commercial Diving Course In Ft Williams Scotland, climed Ben Nevis alone in the fog, was in London, and argued (ofcourse ) in Hyde park, slept on the circle, and had friends in Peterborough, a biker gang "Iron Horsemen". Spent a dirty weekend in Brighton and have swept a few in the Pubs. I never got arrested for anything, but probably should have when making love on the rolling transporter at Gatwick. Oh what a jolly ol' time I had. I'm older now, but it's fun looking back knowing I'm alive after taking an acid trip on top of the Eiffel tower, throwing firecrackers at the French Gendarmerie, getting chased in small streets in Paris, could hear the boots behind me, or being so hangover that I puked behind a waxdoll in the dungeon in Madamme Tussaudes in London. Dear Nelly I hereby ask for your forgiveness, and hope I didnt do too much damage, and that your country and the rest of Europe was easy to repair after my visit.

-- July 29, 2006 4:38 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Hi Roger (sorry everyone else - this may be a bit off topic)

I was an inch away from going to Fort William myself, back in '91. I still have the brochure somewhere in my loft. The course was then 10 weeks and cost around £4000. I didn't have enough money then to do the course. How different life might have turned out if I had. I was born to be in the water. My first two years, I was brought up in Bermuda and one of my most memorable times of my childhood was when I was just 2. I was with my mother at a tidal swimming pool, on the beach. I managed to slip the attention of my mother and go fully into the deep water. She noticed moments later and fully clothed, jumped in to pull me out. Apparently I was not a bit concerned about being completely immersed in the water and when I was pulled out, simply said "mummy, it's green down there".
A couple of years later, at the tender age of 4, my childhood career hit an all time 'low' when I sledged down my parents stairs in a cardboard box, straight through the window next to our front door. I was VERY apologetic! In my defence, I did have the foresight to 'test' the mini cresta-run with my toy (not pet) rabbit. Bunny was fine, so I assumed I would be too! I think fate was smiling on me that day, as I just had the smallest of cuts on my thumb. Sadly, the window never recovered from it's trauma.

Roger, next time just puke in France, then everybody will be happy and all will be forgiven. You get extra points if you do it off the top of the Eiffel Tower.
Note: check wind direction first :o)

It sounds like you have led a colourful and full life, which has shaped you into a very interesting and out-spoken person. Did you take up diving as a career and if so, where, and how long for? Did it pay well?

Myself, well after skipping diving skewl for lack of funds, spending a year in the Territorial Army, waiting for a place in the Royal Engineers to come up (to get into diving), decided it wasn't for me. I spent 7 years doing crappy retail jobs and the last 10 as a pest controller. I can't help wondering how differently things could have turned out if I had made the most of my opportunities back then.

Life is a journey. It's not where you go, but how you get there and how many mistakes you can make along the way.

*Disclaimer* All of the stunts perfomed in the above post were performed by a pillock who was too young to know any better. Under no circumstances, should any attempt be made to recreate these feats of stupidity.

Over & out

-- July 29, 2006 6:26 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I believe most of the Muslims can be divided into two camps, moderates and radicals. Both experience brain washing from the Imams, but in different degrees.
Brainwashing or mind conditioning was studied by Pavlov and is well documented.

"Classical conditioning (also Pavlovian conditioning, respondent conditioning or alpha-conditioning) is a type of associative learning. Ivan Pavlov described the learning of conditioned behavior as being formed by pairing two stimuli to condition an animal into giving a certain response. The simplest form of classical conditioning is reminiscent of what Aristotle would have called the law of contiguity, which states that: "When two things commonly occur together, the appearance of one will bring the other to mind." Classical conditioning focuses on reflexive behavior or involuntary behavior. Any reflex can be conditioned to respond to a formerly neutral stimulus."

The Moderate Arab has been worked over by the Imam but has also been exposed to Western education or exposure to Western ways.
The radical has received all of his training from the Imam and the Mosque. The only training a lot of them receive is endless reading of the Koran until they have memorized the entire text.
That's why it's so easy to convince them that blowing themselves up is a good thing.
Diplomacy and other normal means will not work with the Radicals....they simply don't understand it.
It's like having a rabid dog in your neighborhood....the dog is shot immediately because no one wants to take the chance of getting bitten and infected.
If the moderates can't convince the radicals to change their ways....as we say in Oklahoma...they have a long row to hoe.

-- July 29, 2006 6:55 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Roger,

Again, everyone keeps assuming that what is in insane in our Christian culture is insane in the Arabic culture. Not so, read my post on Ahmed the driver. We all know that Ahmed is lying, but does Ahmed? When he says In Shallah, he really means it, it is Gods Will. Remember that hitting another truck is a criminal act even over here (By law), but its now Gods Fault and Ahmed is absolved, and in his eyes it never really happened. With so many years over here, they (the Arabs) still catch me with my pants down on some point or another. What would seem insane to us is to them a perfectly normal part of everyday life. Don’t worry, just reverse it, and in many cases that is what they think of us. We are the insane Americans or Brits. Okie is very right about the reason they are like this, it is conditioning, because this is the way they are brought up. It is their culture from cradle to grave, and of course they live in it, so have to abide by its conventions otherwise they are INSANE.

Okie had it right to a large extent, on the radicals and the moderates, but I think that he is leaving out the largest group. The non-religious/lip service Arabs. Look in your home town or city and you will see that you have the Hard Core Christians (who’s whole life revolves around the church), the Moderates (attend church, but their life does not revolve around it), the Rest (may go to church on holidays, or not religious at all, or just happen to live in a Christian culture (America) and have to live by the rules). It is this “Rest” that actually makes up the majority, and only pay lip service to Islam. That is also your silent majority.

-- July 29, 2006 11:26 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Okie said:

The radical has received all of his training from the Imam and the Mosque. The only training a lot of them receive is endless reading of the Koran until they have memorized the entire text. That's why it's so easy to convince them that blowing themselves up is a good thing. Diplomacy and other normal means will not work with the Radicals....they simply don't understand it.

===end of quote===

Lance said:

Okie is very right about the reason they are like this, it is conditioning, because this is the way they are brought up. It is their culture from cradle to grave, and of course they live in it, so have to abide by its conventions.

===end of quote===

What you are saying, between the two of you, is that men are like dogs (Pavlov) and can be conditioned completely by their culture and environment (and the Koran, in this case) into behaviors which seem normal to them but are actually insane (like murdering innnocent people by blowing yourself up). However, this overlooks conscience. You see, I believe all men know right from wrong. ALL men start out with their consciences intact. I think that because of the natural law within all men (our consciences), this cannot be true on such a massive scale as you expect, even with "propaganda" at the youngest levels of instruction.

Wild Dogs do not stop and think that that killing a mouse or rabbit for their supper is actually a shame for the rabbit. Men tend to have twinges of conscience about killing even mice (we do not like cruelty to animals) and when it comes to killing men, normal human beings have serious problems with taking another person's life due to the fact that our consciences make us feel tormented and guilty... unless they have been so seared by such conditioning as to no longer be working properly. But to have a seared conscience to the point of being able to take human life without regret, that person has to be pretty depraved.. a monster and less than human - having a portion of what we consider makes us true human beings removed from their psyche.

I simply cannot believe that the majority of the Islamic people are depraved and less than human morally. I think their consciences remain intact, in spite of indoctrination to the contrary, and that most of them seek and wish to safeguard their own and others personal liberty, peace, morality (no murder) and good. The "silent majority" are people who have consciences and are not conditioned into these behaviors, nor do they condone them. They only keep their opinions to themselves because the radicals who are monsters of cruelty and morally depraved keep them in fear for their lives. Remove that fear and you will have a reformation.

Sara.

-- July 30, 2006 1:05 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Nellie,
You're not "Little Nellie" from Rocky Horror, are you?
Promise I'll take my pukes in France in the future. Interesting you were on the way to Ft Williams and take the Commercial Diving Course I took.

On that subjhect I have a bone to pick with Saddam, and it's very personal. When I was done with my Diving education, Iran and Iraq was throwing anything they had at each other, selling cheap oil on the market to finance their war. Oil rigs was put in mothballs, and very experienced divers was sitting ashore, rolling their thumbs. So here I came with a wet certificate, in one way or the other in this business I ended up in Singapore bumming myself around, I applied to over 60 diving companies around the world, but only three even bother to write me back and say no thankyou.

Other than that, yes I've seen Europe, did Fasnacht in Basel, Christiania and Nyhavn in Copenhagen, Reeperbahn in Hamburg and Soho in London. Got broke in Milano, Worked oilrigs in Stavanger Norway, smuggled ciggs to Finland and was a black market taxidriver in Stockholm.

I'm older now, and found joy in discussing insanity. I have found that I'm 95% sane, and the rest 5% is pure insanity.

I dont try to cure it, resist it, hide it or deny it.

I rather, really learned to enjoy it.

Lance,

Naaa, I think you missed my point completely.

In simple terms.

If you get fed a shitload of insanity constantly, just stop being the recieving point for a while.

Over here it's very easy, just turn the TV off, over there I dont have a clue what you do.

What I'm saying is, give the man a break, if the insanity is in your ears, you'll go insane yourself after a while. (Sara got it)

I'm saying, on occasion yo have to have your own thinking space back, say puh, and get your own bearings straight.

Ahmed might not know he is insane, but I'm not going to sove it for him, he has to solve that himself, because I'm going to solve the problem with why my check light always comes on.

Starting to get what I'm saying?

As long as Ahmed goes against the laws of the universe, I dont need to bother to punish him for that, because the universe itself will continue to punish him, until he's got it.

Sara,

Well I think you got it right, but when saying LAW'S, it must include physical universe laws also, not only man made written laws.

If a person would start constructing a "skyhook", he wouldnt really be in too much of a healthy mental condition. There is no such things as a skyhook, but while doing that, he would not break any moral codes, or written laws.

I do believe you are absolutely rightwhen it comes to insanity and the conciousness.

Human mankind wants to survive. Whatever will enhance his survival, for himself, his family, group or the whole mankind that must be part of the sanity factor.

If all the blondes want to kill all the read heads, that would violate the survival of mankind.

Any action against the survival to any part of mankind, would be to that degree insane.

If Islam wants to kill ALL the Christians and any oterh human with any other viewpoint, then Islam has taken the viewpoint that all except Islamists are human.

Other people wants to survive, and are trying to solve the problem of survival, when dealing with a group that want to kill them.

That posing of the problem WILL be seen as completely INSANE by the intended victims, because to accept their solution, it must involve their own death.

-- July 30, 2006 2:44 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Uhu...DrDinar have a survey out, wanting to know if I visting any chat or blogsite regarding Dinars.

"Please fill in what site your'e visiting".

I'm not sure I would be to happy having a salespitch from one of the dealers here.

"If you buy now, we throw in six months free worth of....."

-- July 30, 2006 3:06 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

THE iDEA IS AND WaS GOOD
iTS UNDERSTANDABLE WHY THEY FORMed
hIStoRy shows it doesn't AlwAys turn out the way you EXpecteD...

Situation:
You have a neighborhood or City that is totally overrun by assholes, gangs,individuals who hang around on the corners, at store parking lots, and run through the commerical areas like a pack of wild dogs...they verbally abuse individuals,sale illegal drugs, fight, threaten, steal, break, destroy, in general they contribute nothing but negative to an area.....

The Police Force whom you... the citizen rely on to control these type of two legged critters... either does not exist, doesn't have the guts to do so, not enough man power or support...no equipment to do a good job...etc...
Thus....the men of the neighborhood who want this to stop, form a "little group" to... lets say...take care of business...
This "Group of Protectors" are greatly appreciated by the citizens and Police who did not have the arms or manpower to control the Individuals, or group of Individuals who were creating the fear...Things settle down and start to get back to normal...

Humanoids being who they are...tend to put their personal views into things....like...Hey! What are you doing in this neighborhood...this area is for "Green People Only" do you look green you dumb "White" SOB...get out of here...

Hey! Hey! This area is for Church Of Christ only....no Baptist are allowed here...get your butt gone...

Look! Have we already not told that ignorant Baptist to not set up his selling booth in this market area...you!.. John..take a couple of the guys and take this guy for a ride...be sure he can be found as a warning to the other Baptist...

Thus...you have what started out as a necessary thing gradually switching to personal beliefs and prejudices...and becoming a terror within its own..

In the America if they are unofficial we called them citizen groups, vigilantes, KKK, etc...if they are official we call them the National Guard...

In Iraq they are called "Milita's"
If used correctly a necessary and good thing....wrongly and you have another problem to contend with..WORSE... than the one the militias were formed to resolve...

The issue....What is Right? What is Wrong? What is accepted in one neighborhood...would not be accepted in another...Thus....diversity steps in and separates the neighborhoods...and divides the country to the point of building separate governments...

This is why the Iraqi Government has got to step in and deal straight forward and quickly with the individual militias...to put back into structure a uniform law...the code under which all are expected to live by...without ethnic or religious crap being thrown into the mix......its the Sadrs of the Country that will be the leaks that cause the dam to crack and crumble if not patched now...

-- July 30, 2006 7:10 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Sara,

Your quote(s):

Main Entry: in•san•i•ty
a : a disease, defect, or condition of the mind that renders one unable to understand the nature of a criminal act or the fact that it is wrong or to conform one's conduct to the requirements of the law being violated.

And:

I think that because of the natural law within all men (our consciences), this cannot be true on such a massive scale as you expect, even with "propaganda" at the youngest levels of instruction.

And Roger's:

Ahmed might not know he is insane, but I'm not going to solve it for him, he has to solve that himself, because I'm going to solve the problem with why my check light always comes on.

Starting to get what I'm saying?

As long as Ahmed goes against the laws of the universe, I don’t need to bother to punish him for that, because the universe itself will continue to punish him, until he's got it.

Rebuttal:

Your Christianity is showing. These people are Islamic and raised this way. You are placing YOUR Christian views and values of what is right and wrong upon them. Their “Conscience” is not yours and mine. You are assuming that Christianity is right. They are assuming it is wrong, oh infidel maiden and sir. They go to their heaven and we go to ours. Theirs just happens to require an entrance fee of dead Infidels, and to them that is the path in “Their” universe. Christian conscience, definition of criminal act, and morals, not required for entry.

-- July 30, 2006 7:42 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Sara, Roger,

Don't think that I am standing up for them. I think that they are insane, and I have to deal with them every day. Which makes me 95% insane and the other 5% questionable at best.

It's not all of them that think that their Koran is gospel. It's just most of them, even the moderates that will tell you, and quote to you, that all Infidels should be killed. The moderates just put a caveat after that by saying they don't believe Mohammed meant that. Now who do you believe?

This wasn't like this many years ago when I first got over here. This is the influence of the Jihadist and Imam's. It poisons most of them, and they agree out of fear. After generations of fear it has now become truth. This is what I find really scary.

-- July 30, 2006 8:06 AM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

http://www.cbiraq.org/C.B.I.%20FOREIGN%20EXCHANGE%20AUCTIONS.pdf

I'm not sure if any of you are familiar with this.. Soes anyone know why back in April there was such a huge volume of Dinars selling as opposed to now? Even today there was a little upswing in the amount sold, but nothing compared to April.

-- July 30, 2006 10:31 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Lance:
You are totally correct in your analysis...The definition of right and wrong depends on where you are in the world...that is one of the problems....there are certain organizations and groups that teach their way is superior to the others....so they extend labels like sinners, infidels,backslidders, wetbacks,niggers,honky's,limey,daigo,whop,slant eyes....go ahead and put whatever label you want....as long as it degrades the other...

If you teach a squirrel dog how to hunt and then kill the squirrel when it hits the ground...the squirrel dog will they view the squirrel in a totally different way.... from a dog that was raised as a puppy with other baby squirrels...this dog may lick them to death...but never intentionally kill a squirrel...

This is no different from what the Palestians are doing with their small children...teach them to hate the jews and infidels from childhood and you will get a hunter of jews and infidels when they are grown...
The conditioning is the same....just different species...so to answer Sara's point of view is they have no hesitation in killing infidels or non believers...why? because the infidels, etc are no better than the squirrel that hit the ground...no! even less...at least they can eat the squirrel..

So! that is why it will take at least 3 generations to remove the hatred and prejudice in Iraq just among their own...dislike, disrespect...or hatred toward infidels,and the West will never be removed....the equalizer is "Economic Trade" Create a fair trading partner and you will remove at least the chance of War significantly between you...Why? because the both nations,and its citizens benefit each other......and contribute to each's financial security...

You cannot negoiate with someone who's total purpose and goal is to kill you or your race... There is only one solution....sorry! but that is the reality of the situation with the hamas, jihadist, and Hezbollah...After the battle..then allow the politicians to discuss anything they want...but these groups understand only one thing...force...fear..annilation..so its time we gettadone...and over with...

Then take the children "CONDITION THEM TO NOT HATE ANY RACE OR RELIGION" and you will then start to have peace...

Condi Rice needs to take about 6 months and go play the piano somewhere so Israel can complete solving the Hezbollah and Hamas nusiance..

-- July 30, 2006 10:36 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Carl Sez……….

This is why the Iraqi Government has got to step in and deal straight forward and quickly with the individual militias...to put back into structure a uniform law...the code under which all are expected to live by...without ethnic or religious crap being thrown into the mix......its the Sadrs of the Country that will be the leaks that cause the dam to crack and crumble if not patched now...

Lance Sez……..

Your Christianity is showing. These people are Islamic and raised this way. You are placing YOUR Christian views and values of what is right and wrong upon them. Their “Conscience” is not yours and mine. You are assuming that Christianity is right. They are assuming it is wrong, oh infidel maiden and sir. They go to their heaven and we go to ours. Theirs just happens to require an entrance fee of dead Infidels, and to them that is the path in “Their” universe. Christian conscience, definition of criminal act, and morals, not required for entry.

Okie Sez………

Carl and Lance have done an excellent job summarizing what we’re dealing with in this clash of cultures. A lot of people on this forum have been exposed to different ideas and thoughts as they travel and work in the US and different parts of the world. Most people discuss things in a civilized manner and sometimes they will raise their voice to make a point. If they go beyond that and attack each other it becomes a matter of law.
I can’t imagine watching some guy crawling over my fence, heading for my back door, with a gun yelling “I don’t agree with you…..you’ve really pissed me off now…..I’m going to kill you ! “ without seeking help from my friend Mr. “Colt” to help me handle this guy. I feel I don’t have time to wait for him to reach some state of Nirvana or let the universe take care of him. If his friends come to help him, I have a right to call in my other friends “Smith and Wesson”. The radicals are forgetting the universal law (Well in my part of the world anyway ) “Your rights end where mine begin”.

-- July 30, 2006 11:54 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Well it started with the topic INSANITY. I think we can agre that any solution on anyone elses part, that involves my death, will be viewed as insane on my part.

Love the forum.

Dinars?

-- July 30, 2006 1:40 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Taylor,

I looked tat the table on the site you showed. Yes you are right, my take is, with the knowledge I'm sitting on, that Iraq is not printing any more money, and the system they have in place right now, to support the Dinar, is a system that will only last so long, because the limited ammount of Dinars.

If you do exactly as they are doing right now, the ammount of Dinars will eventually be more and more scarce on the home front.

You sell a certain ammount on the auction, half is going back in circulation at home, and about half is going to banks in the surrounding countries.

A system like this is very simple, and compared with international practiced bank routines almost past stone age, but it is a very effective way to control a currency value.

All you have to do is to place restriction on how much an Iraqi can take abroad, calculate how much is going that way, and sell to banks in the surrounding states, a certain ammound of Dinars.

In tha way you can calculate very close to exact how much is in curculation and where it is, sell more if you need to and less if you need to, in order to keep the value of the Dinar stable at home.

In case you need more value, you sell more of it, if the currency have strong value, you dont need to sell more of it.

My take is that, the fact they are selling less and less, the actual value of the Dinar is growing.

The Dinar is probably worth much more right now than the artificial held value.

(that advice will cost you 50 cents)

Assuming I'm sitting on right information that the Dinar is not endlessy reprinted, this system can not go on forever. Just by setting it up in the first place must assume a time limit on it, because if runned long enough, Dinars will start to be scarce in Iraq.

I do believe they are far from that point now, but theoretically if they continue like this, they will.

-- July 30, 2006 2:14 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Don't Have Much Use For Weak Spined Individuals...
As a Police officer I have patroled the toughest of getto's in Oklahoma City,and meanest streets of Birmingham, Ala ...I have tore up more uniforms,wipe more blood from my face, put more sterial gause on wounds that I want to even start to remember...but if I had too ...I would do it all again..Why? Because it kept order in the streets...that is what Police are for...not to create their own brand of fear..

I have had individuals ask "Don't You Get Scared?...Aren't you afraid to go into there? The answer is a resounding "YES"..just because you wear a badge doesn't make you any less a human, with the same human reactions that all have...its the training...that makes the difference...

The training allows you to turn the fear into an asset...it hones your senses....your nose smells more...your eyes catch the smallest movement...your skin feels the pressure of the air and how the air is disturbed when something moves or blocks a breeze..You move slowly for you know the eye cannot catch a slow movement as quickly as a quick movement...you instinctively watch shadows....any sound causes you to pause...and pin point where it came from...when you get into your first gunbattle you really don't have time to think. The first thing you hear is the buzz,then the acid smell of the bullet, the next is the smack of the hit,then the retort of the shot...Sometimes you see the shooter before he fires...sometimes not...

When you have shot someone they do not always fall instantly...it takes approx 7 seconds for the body to recognize it is shot unless you hit a bone...I have seen individuals shot 5 times with a 357 Mag and then say..."Are you Through"? only then to fall dead before they hit the ground... I have seen individuals blown up and backwards with two loads of buckshot at point blank range and never make a sound after they hit the ground..Sometimes they jerk... sometimes not...occassionally a gurgle or death rattle...this just lets you know should you shoot them again or not...the point of this diatribe is ....keeping order in a society is not pretty...the laws are not always followed to the tee as you the citizen have been led to believe ...
Even here in America...Yes! I have seen things happen in law enforcement that if known would have caused quite a stir in the newspapers...those things are better kept below the public radar...example:
We had a rash of strong arm robberies in a 10 block area of a certain area of town...I believe it was around 25 robberies for the month...so we district officers simply solved the problem... the first thing we did was decided to not worry about convictions...sorry! no lawyers...no prosecutors...no judges...no correction officers..just this...."Medical Examiner and the guy who sticks the butt plug up their rectum during the embalming"

We put a team of snipers on the buildings in this 10 block area especially over looking the type of business that were being robbed.... Instructions were this..."Allow them to get out side of the building...shoot the fuckers until dead" No Warning...Not Miranda... Simple...no mistake in communication...
We shot 7 that month...no court..no research on his background about being mistreated, no hearings to attend...just a pastor or priest to say something meaningful for the family of the asshole we shot..Our arm robberies dropped to zero...our merchants started to feel save again, and were glad we handled the situation... Now! that is crime control...its the law of the jungle folks...its the only thing some understand..you don't have to worry about repeat offenders...Yep! you can strike that one from the category list...

Then...the ACLU, and other organization started raising cain about us killing too many of those misunderstood assholes...so the politicians made us stop being so efficient in our method of "Criminal Birth Control"....The Arm Robberies then increased back to where they were..
As an officer of the street for 24 years I have learned the simple lesson that "Justice is very rarely in the courts" The Prosecutor, Judges and Lawyers are too involved in the gaming skills and who is going to one up... to really give a shit about the verdict...they just want to win...for their own ego...
I am sure some of the bodies showing up on the streets of Iraq were created by Police Officers or Militia personnel... which when looked at would be justified...

Today we have the military trying to take care of business and solve a continuing problem efficiently once and for all...now its the politicians who are coming back into the picture doing the same old shit they have always done...and getting the same old results they have always gotten...which in 5 years will cause the world to go through this crap once again..

When will the Politicians learn? Any Guesses anyone...?

-- July 30, 2006 2:32 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Roger said:

Well I think you got it right, but when saying LAWS, it must include physical universe laws also, not only man made written laws.

===

Well said, Roger.. I agree. Law is law.. it isn't negotiable. It isn't optional.. it is LAW. It is to the universal laws, such as gravity, that we are speaking here. Physical laws have consequences, and violating true moral laws also have consequences. When you say, "Any action against the survival to any part of mankind, would be to that degree insane." that is true.. because acting against a part of mankind.. be it Jew, Christian, Islamic, Chinese, Black, White or any other designation, is WRONG. Why is it universally wrong, though, Roger? When Lance says, "Your Christianity is showing. These people are Islamic and raised this way. You are placing YOUR Christian views and values of what is right and wrong upon them."

I have to disagree. It isn't Christianity, but sanity and universal law which I am arguing for. Set aside if you can what is religious.. what is universally accepted as SANE? Killing off a group due to religion, color, gender or any other thing is not SANE. It isn't Christianity - it is Universal Conscience or Law - a principle of universal morality which is not exclusively something Christian.

I agree with Carl when he said: ".. there are certain organizations and groups that teach their way is superior to the others....so they extend labels like sinners, infidels, backslidders, wetbacks, niggers, honky's, limey, daigo, whop, slant eyes....go ahead and put whatever label you want....as long as it degrades the other..." but we all know that isn't right, INNATELY. That is why Lance said, "It's not all of them that think that their Koran is gospel. It's just most of them, even the moderates that will tell you, and quote to you, that all Infidels should be killed. The moderates just put a caveat after that by saying they don't believe Mohammed meant that."

I ask you, why don't they think Mohammed meant that? Because they KNOW it isn't reasonable, any more than degrading any of the other groups. Innately, we all KNOW that humans have innate GOD GIVEN AND INALIENABLE RIGHTS. I know it is stated in the US Constitution, but face it, they got that point RIGHT. We all KNOW IT INSIDE.. they do, too! They are not that brainwashed or they would all be murderers and extremists. They have the light of conscience and feel it cannot be right - that somehow someone got what Mohammed said wrong.. why? Because he represents God and we all know those rights are given to us of God.

So when you say, Lance, that: "Their “Conscience” is not yours and mine. You are assuming that Christianity.." No, I am not. I am assuming the light of normal human conscience which any Buddhist monk who has never heard of Christianity or any Confuscionist or Hindu will agree to. ALL men know inside that we are given human liberty and rights and to violate them is wrong. It isn't Christianity, it is UNIVERSAL LAW.. as real as the laws of nature. It is what the people of the Middle East wish to have and know that all men should have. When you say, Lance, that their religion "just happens to require an entrance fee of dead Infidels, and to them that is the path in “Their” universe. Christian conscience, definition of criminal act, and morals, not required for entry."

I think that is wrong.. and that the overwhelming majority of the world's population would say that is wrong - whether they are Christian people or otherwise. Take a survey and let me know.. I am certain it is universal natural law within the human conscience for mankind to know that murdering people is morally wrong. It is not just a Christian concept.. it is a part of the Universal Natural Moral Law of Human Consciousness and Conscience.

Sara.

-- July 30, 2006 3:19 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Sara:
The point is you are an infidel...and to some muslims LESS than human...so they would have no problem in killing you as they would a goat or sheep....as matter of fact they would probably kill you quicker...all of the arguments human rights, or of what is wrong or right... does not apply....it is the Fundamentalistic Islamic conditioning that has the strongest play here...

-- July 30, 2006 4:48 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Being nut's amongst nuts doesnt make a nut sane because the only thing he can compare with, is other nuts.

-- July 30, 2006 5:30 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Carl and Roger - points well taken.

===

Quote:

Law

The force of policemen and officers; "the law came looking for him" [syn: police, police force, constabulary].

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/law

Carl;

This definition (which was in the definitions I quoted above for Law) fits the military operation in place in Iraq as well as some needs within law enforcement at times, I agree. Sometimes, the only way that the violators of the law can be dealt with is to send the long arm of THE LAW after them, in order to bring peace.

War appears to be an extension of the LAW in that respect. Even as you spoke of helping clean up the neighborhood from those who would harm the ordinary populace, the takfiris/insurgents are being cleaned up by the Iraqi and coalition forces in Iraq. I believe they have the force of LAW and God on their side.. simply because, as you said:

"to some muslims you are LESS than human...so they would have no problem in killing you as they would a goat or sheep....as matter of fact they would probably kill you quicker...all of the arguments human rights, or of what is wrong or right... does not apply....it is the Fundamentalistic Islamic conditioning that has the strongest play here..."

Since murdering (breaking the Universal LAW of God) is in play and disrespect for human life is the rule of their Fundamentalistic Islamic conditioning, these murderers of innocent men, women and children cannot prevail, for all of heaven is against those who seek to bring peace (defend God/God's kingdom, usher in their Empire or vision for humanity, etc) by using the sword - the sword will be used against them and prevail against them to their death:

Mat 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, Put up again your sword into its place: for all they that take the sword shall die with the sword.

For those so brainwashed against the US that they cannot see, but apply that to the efforts to secure the peace in Iraq by the Iraqi and coalition forces I can only say, Luke 7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

Sara.

-- July 30, 2006 6:58 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Sara....

I believe the "universal natural law" that we're seeing in the Middle East right now is..."Good will always overcome evil".

My Grandma taught me that when I was four years old.

-- July 30, 2006 7:30 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Carl....

Thanks for your input on law enforcement. I've known several police officers and if I put their names on your posting, it would read the same. Good reading!

-- July 30, 2006 7:37 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

The Intent...
of Iran was to stir the masses...to unite under one banner...to seal the divide...

7-30-2006
Iraq's top "Shiite" Cleric has come out and demanded an immediate halt and cease fire in lebanon...
The Muslim World (he is trying to speak for muslims in Egypt,Iraq,Saudi Arabia, kuwait,and
jordan. He is now going to attempt to seal the Divide under one banner...fight under one cause...expel the infidels...) he continues...Muslims will not stand by and forgive the nations that stand in the way of stopping the fighting...(this is a clear direct statement to the United States)

"It is not possible to stand helpless in front of the Israeli aggression on Lebanon". If the fighting does not stop "dire consequences will befall the REGION...(NOTE HE INCLUDES IRAQ IN THIS STATEMENT)

President Talabani A SUNNI KURD EXPRESSES ANGER AND EXPRESSES HIS SOLIDARITY WITH THE LEBANESE PEOPLE..fully knowing they are Shiite...

Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Saleh also a SUNNI KURD stated...Lebanon will undoubtedly impact iraq and the region surrounding it...

What has now happen and is happening IS the Israeli's while winning the battle in Lebanon are losing the WAR..as their action is now doing what Iran or other insurgents could not do...

UNITEING THE SHIITE AND SUNNI'S UNDER ONE ANGRY BANNER...OF MUSLIM AGAINST JEWS AND THE COALITION FORCES IN IRAQ

What is now feared is that Al-Sistani's call will create a large following which will begin to turn against the American supported Iraqi government...This Iraqi government depends on the coalition for security and support...

Sadly...It appears the plan of the Iranians is starting to take effect and presently beginning to work...

You will see in the near future major uprisings all staged and backed by Sadr....this stirs the pot even more....as the tension increases you are going to see Maliki start to attempt to placate the anger by giving verbal support of the hezbollah fighters and reacting strongly against the support America is giving Israel.....

I predict Iran will turn up the heat, by causing either Israel or the USA to strike back at a provocation that is intented to inflame even more...

Our leaders are going to have to start being proactive instead of reactive to win this thing...
So far our leaders are chasing the fox...and he is running the hounds straight into the briar patch

-- July 30, 2006 8:03 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Roger and Taylor;

You must also consider trading PRIOR to the date that the CBI started keeping records... The NID was out in mid 2003 and was trading like cotton candy at the county fair. Do you see anything that shows how much of the old Dinar was traded for the New??? Like I previously stated... "No One really knows how much is out there!" One thing I learned while I was in the sandbox... "NEVER trust an Arab!"

Regards,

Outlaw

-- July 30, 2006 8:58 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php/article/9619

UN, Iraq initiate international development compact

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

30 July 2006 (MENAFN)
The Iraqi government and the United Nations have launch an International Compact backed by the World Bank and aims to help Iraq, Middle East Times reported.

The Compact will bring the international community and multilateral organizations together to help Iraq achieve its National Vision over five years.

The main goal of the compact is to set up a structure for Iraq's economic transformation and integration into the regional and global economy.

An executive committee including Iraq and UN officials, the World Bank, the IMF, and other regional financial institutions will oversee the compact.

The compact was achieved during Iraqi Prime Minister visit to the United States and was directly backed by Washington.

-- July 30, 2006 10:18 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Outlaw,

Well, if you know how much you have printed, and you know how much you have in the reserves, then you know how much exactly there is floating around.

Then it doesn't matter how much the Dinar was traded in exchange for the old "Saddam"Dinar.

It wouldnt matter either, if you started to keep tabs a time period after the release of the new Dinar.

All you need is those two numbers.

With the current systen they have, it's a very easy thing to know whats floating, and whats, not. This mainly because the system is set up like a kitchen table budget.

It is a very simple and crude system, but just because it's so simple the control is also very easy.

You can hold the Dinar value easy, doing what they're doing.

If you want to keep it pegged where it is right now to the Dollar, all you have to do is sell more or less of your currency.

If the Dinar is weak, you need more of other currency to back it, and you sell more, making the currency a small fraction more scarce in Iraq, and now you have boosted the Dinar.

In the reverse, if the Dinar is strong and hold it's own, then you sell less.

Then you keep tabs of how much of your printed stash you are releasing, and voa'la, you've got what you wanted.

It would technically not really be true to say that the Dinar is pegged to the Dollar doing this, it would be more true saying that it's artificially held in a fixed position towards the Dollar.

You will see on the Central Bank of Iraqs auction board, a small fluctuation, not much, but that shows it's a balance act.

A true pegged currency doesn't move against the currency it is pegged.

When it comes to trusting an arab, well....I think that belongs to the discussion about sanity and insanity, that discussion is still going, and I think I will ad to it some more.

-- July 31, 2006 1:08 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Looking at the latest conflict between Israel and Hezbolla, not putting any morality in it, no taking sides, or waiving any banners, I must say the latest discussion about sanity and insanity do apply very well.

Lets say you are a war planner, you are a high ranking well seasoned military man, and you want to do a war excercise.

You are given a choice of leading one force out of a pick of two possible.

One force will have small arms, and WW2 technology ballistic rockets without any guidance system, as it's only offensive weapon.

The other side will have airforce, infantry, tank divisions, artillery, and marine forces. All state of the art in performance. And ad an overwhelming ammount of firepower over the other side.

Any field commander having the choice, if he would be sane, would choose the one with modern weapons and overwhelming firepower.

Evidently, there is some commanders in this world that choses the other side as a viable and healthy force, and initiate a war.

When logic decision is so clouded by own bias, that not even such an obvious observation , as your own forces short comings against your enemy, has any value, would'nt this be an issue under the SANE and INSANE discussion board.

-- July 31, 2006 1:36 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Just a Idea Of The Complexity

Here in America and Europe we have a unique way of thinking. Most if not all, place some type of moral or religious value guage to the actions of an individual.The Communities serve under one law, so if you go to another community, you just stay within the guidelines of what you know about your local laws and you will be safe in not violating established laws...

We view our language the same way...the major universal language here in America is English, so you speak and expect to hear English when you travel...Now! I realize there are certain areas of even the USofA that no one can understand a word you say because you do not know the communities langugage such as spanish,haitian, Polish,German, etc...

But in Iraq it is a little more complex...due to the limited access to certain parts of the country, they have been isolated for centuries...and even today it is a rarity for a visitor or an official of the government to even show up in their area...
The Country is a maze of religions, sects, towns, villages, family trees,individual local governments,tribes,etc...all of these foreign to the another areas way of conducting life and thinking...Individual families who have tribal leaders, warlords,clerics, mullahs, in power are not too receptive of a national government coming in and telling them "You will perform under these laws" They are use to it being the other way around...now throw in the many different dialects of arabic languages where different phrases mean one thing to an individual, with a total different meaning to the other trying to communicate...and you have what is referred to here as ..."Yep! its clear as Mississippi mud"

Don't believe this would be difficult...if you live in a small town go to the community council and attempt to get something changed officially, that has not been changed in years...
You will get the fight of your life and a good lession in "Well! its always been that way..."

So it is not inconcievable that in order for things to truthly change it takes years. The present generation,and second generation folks will have to die off...as this starts to occur the old way of thinking and doing things also dies with them...this then leaves a void for new ideas and methods of doing things to slowly be filtered into the mix of life...

Any baker will tell ya....dump a cup of flour or corn starch to thicken the gravy and you are going to have lumpy gravy.....in order for their to be continuity the ingredient has to be sifted in slowly and stirred so it will blend in with the existing gravy..changes being made in communities have to be done the same way...

Somehow...our MSM as supposely intelligent they claim to be, have forgotten that simple basic rule of human nature...So! when they put a time frame of "Well! hell you've been their 3 years....if you can't change things by that time frame ...you're an idiot..."
They must not have mirrors in their home...because if they did...they would see one every morning when they shaved or put on their makeup...

-- July 31, 2006 8:11 AM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Roger;

"Time will tell!"

Outlaw

-- July 31, 2006 8:33 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Sure hope the Iraqis follow thru on this....it could be the best decision they ever made. The Major Oil companies can and will develop the oil industry for them. At a good price?...you betcha!
==========================================================

International oil firms ready to invest in Iraq - minister

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BAGHDAD, 30 July 2006 (AFX News Limited)

"Most of the companies have shown a serious willingness to help and to work with Iraqi oil companies and on their own" to develop the industry, he said."

"We are hoping the International Compact will give a chance to many more companies to come and cooperate with us to develop Iraq's oil fields."

"Shahristani also described a pair of laws that were now before parliament to boost the sector, including the long-awaited Iraqi investment law."

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php?refid=DH-S-31-07-2006&article=9624

-- July 31, 2006 10:00 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

We could stand a truck load of good news about now.....
Sara....Will you please come to our rescue? :)

-- July 31, 2006 11:20 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Okie:

According to Taylor's post; Iraq initiate international development compact. Is this not a truck load of good news?

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 31, 2006 11:47 AM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

I can't seem to find any additional information on this topic but on aboutdinar.com someone has posted that the Iraqi parliment has gone on vacation for the next 30 days. Has anyone else heard anything about this?

-- July 31, 2006 12:28 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Rob N. & Taylor....

It is great news for sure...thanks!! I also read somewhere today that Maliki is shaking up his cabinet and getting serious about dealing with the Militia thugs.....hope he does it quickly!

-- July 31, 2006 12:39 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Quote:

Frank Rich: Why the television networks 'canceled' the war in Iraq
RAW STORY
Published: Saturday July 29, 2006

Referring to a report that Iraq coverage on the three major network evening newscasts dropped 60 percent since 2003, New York Times columnist Frank Rich argues that the war has been "canceled" partly because the American viewing audience may not have the "stomach to watch" such a "big, nightmarish story" that has garnered the "specter of defeat," and which "lacks the thread of a coherent plot," RAW STORY has found.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Frank_Rich_Network_helping_to_cancel_0729.html

===end of quote===

My take on why folks don't wish to watch the MSM coverage of the Iraqi war anymore is that they are sick and tired of the propaganda. They see the "nightmarish story" the MSM has spun and they are sick of it. Whether they remain believers of the MSM slant on the story or not has yet to be determined.

Like the statistic of 50% of Americans believing there were WMD in Iraq:

Quote:
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200607/NAT20060725a.html - Fifty percent of American adults, when questioned by telephone between July 5 and 11 said they believe weapons of mass destruction (WMD) existed in Iraq before the U.S. invaded and toppled Saddam Hussein's regime.

.. the public is not lockstepped with the media and may have their doubts about the way the story is being spun, or, indeed, they may be thinking quite contrary to it (also note Bush's second term and the media slant on that before he won).

Sara.

-- July 31, 2006 1:19 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Iraq Fixed Turkey Pipeline
31.07.2006 13:37

Iraq's crude oil pipeline to Turkey has been fixed, and Iraq expects to resume exports to Ceyhan port, Oil Minister Hussain al-Shahristani said on Sunday.

http://www.neftegaz.ru/english/lenta/show.php?id=65153

-- July 31, 2006 1:20 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Sara:

Your post today: Iraq Fixed Turkey Pipeline
31.07.2006 13:37 should fulfill Okie's request for a truck full of good news

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 31, 2006 2:06 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

2006 media advisories
Press Conference-Signing Ceremony with Senior Official
Baghdad, Iraq
July 31, 2006

WHAT:Press Conference and Signing Ceremony

WHO:Senior U.S. and Iraqi Officials

DATE:Tuesday, August 1, 2006

WHERE:GCD Auditorium (High Rise adjacent to the Prime Minister’s Office)

TIME:12:25 P.M. (Arrive before and no later than 12:00 noon)

SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS: This Press Conference/Signing Ceremony is open to CPIC-credentialed media only. Translation will be provided.

CONTACT: U.S. Embassy Spokesman’s Office – (914) 360-6395 or (914) 360-6452, Iraqna 07901-819-314, or BaghdadPressOffice@state.gov.

http://iraq.usembassy.gov/iraq/20060731_senior_us_iraqi.html

I'm not sure what this is all about...

-- July 31, 2006 2:14 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

From www.iraqieconomy.org

World Bank approves loan for Iraq July 31, 2006 - The World Bank's board of executive directors approved a credit to Iraq's government to rehabilitate highly damaged highways and rural roads and re-establish critical river crossings.
The $135 million Emergency Road Rehabilitation Project will facilitate reconstruction, promote trade and economic integration, and benefit road users throughout the country. The project will also create substantial local employment.
"The project is designed to address urgent transport bottlenecks," said Mohammed Feghoul, the World Bank project team leader. "At the same time," he added, "the project will establish a road asset management system to ensure proper maintenance and sustainability of road networks in the medium and long term.
"In central and southern Iraq, the project will rehabilitate about 180 miles of highways, reconstruct about 90 miles of village access roads, and replace some floating bridges with permanent structures.
In northern Iraq, the project will rehabilitate the main road from Erbil to Altun Kopri, a nearly 24-mile road, and reconstruct around 45 miles of village access roads.
The project will be implemented by the State Commission for Roads and Bridges within the Ministry of Construction and Housing in Baghdad, and the General Directorate for Roads and Bridges of the Kurdistan Regional Government in Erbil.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 31, 2006 2:24 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Another article from www.iraqieconomy.org

More oil products imported to Iraq from Turkey and Iran July 31, 2006 - Iraq's Ministry of Oil announced that it awarded – following transparent procedures - contracts for the purchase, from Turkey and Iran, of 280,000 tons of gasoline and 175,000 tons of diesel fuel for public consumption.
The Ministry also purchased 139,000 tons of liquid gas for the power stations under the authority of the Ministry of Electricity.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 31, 2006 2:25 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

One more from www.iraqieconomy.org

Inclarity expands communications reach in Iraq July 29, 2006 - Inclarity announced July 27 that it has signed a contract that will help Asiacell expand in Iraq.
The contract will deliver major network enhancements that should significantly increase international and national traffic capacity for Asiacell throughout Iraq to support Asiacell's national roll out of its GSM network.
Inclarity will also extend the reach of Asiacell from the three existing satellite earth stations in Sulimania, Mosoul and Baghdad to two new earth stations in Basra and Kirkuk.
Inclarity and Asiacell will further cooperate in the delivery of inbound international traffic to the Asiacell network and to the rest of Iraq via Asiacell's network. Inclarity remains Asiacell's preferred partner for international traffic serving its multi-million subscriber base.
Faruk Rasool Mustafa, Asiacell's Chairman of the Board, said: "As we further roll out our network in Iraq, we are comfortable in the knowledge that our international connectivity will be provided by Inclarity. Over the last seven years, Inclarity has delivered on its promise to provide first-class technical expertise and support capabilities."
"The expansion of Inclarity's role will allow us to easily cope with a steady increase in subscribers as we grow our services in Baghdad, and launch services in Basra and beyond."

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 31, 2006 2:27 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

My little truck is quickly filling up with good news....Thanks!

-- July 31, 2006 3:05 PM ∞

---

Terri wrote:

Any comments on this article???

http://iraq.usembassy.gov/iraq/20060731_senior_us_iraqi.html

-- July 31, 2006 4:05 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Dinar Auction results from the CBI as of 07/31/06. http://www.cbiraq.org/cbs6.htm
Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- July 31, 2006 4:32 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Yes, terri and TAYLOR, too.. who posted it first.
That article says there will be a signing ceremony with Senior U.S. and Iraqi Officials tomorrow at noon. What they are signing we do not know.

My friend Chaka did phone to the embassy. They said they know nothing. The WH said to call the state department. The state dept transferred him to the Iraq desk. He ended up gettting an answering machine... so much for Bureaucracy.

Speculation is running from the signing ceremony being the RV (of course) to toilet paper requisition forms.. (ok, in jest by Lance on the IIF). We have no way of knowing exactly why they are getting together to sign something, but if it isn't the RV they are signing, I would say it will be something to do with the security situation there. Maybe the Sunnis got on board after all??

The fact is, we do not know.. but it is possible it is the RV, so it should be interesting to see what happens 12 hours from now (if there is no delay in the signing ceremony).

Sara.

-- July 31, 2006 4:40 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Yes, terri and TAYLOR, too.. who posted it first.
That article says there will be a signing ceremony with Senior U.S. and Iraqi Officials tomorrow at noon. What they are signing we do not know.

My friend Chaka did phone to the embassy. They said they know nothing. The WH said to call the state department. The state dept transferred him to the Iraq desk. He ended up getting an answering machine... so much for Bureaucracy.

Speculation is running from the signing ceremony being the RV (of course) to toilet paper requisition forms.. (ok, in jest by Lance on the IIF). We have no way of knowing exactly why they are getting together to sign something, but if it isn't the RV they are signing, I would say it will be something to do with the security situation there. Maybe the Sunnis got on board after all??

The fact is, we do not know.. but it is possible it is the RV, so it should be interesting to see what happens about 12 hours from now (if there is no delay in the signing ceremony).

Sara.

-- July 31, 2006 4:41 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Sorry about the double post. Real time in Baghdad at this post time:

Baghdad, Iraq
Baghdad is the capital of Iraq
The native name of Iraq is Al Iraq
Current time Tuesday, August 1, 2006 at 12:44:28 AM

Signing ceremony at about 12:00 PM.. so less than 12 hours until we know for sure.

Sara.

-- July 31, 2006 4:46 PM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

Terri - re: article.

Does this have something to do with signing the Foreign Investment Law into law?

-- July 31, 2006 4:52 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

taxmama;

I certainly hope it is the FI laws being signed into law. :)
That certainly would be good news.

Sara.

-- July 31, 2006 5:12 PM ∞

---

Terri wrote:

Hum, I would bet so -- but I'm also betting (LOL, hoping)they announce both (law and peg) at the same time...like Sarah said "less than 12 hours until we know for sure."

-- July 31, 2006 5:23 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

WOW!!....Talk about good news....this will be the most watched event we've had for awhile...
Com'on Sara...admit you double posted because you're getting excited about this news...

I'm like Terri....I hope it's the FI laws and news on the Dinar at the same time.

I think the good news will flow at a faster pace because we're less than 100 days until the US elections and political forces will play a big role.

-- July 31, 2006 6:40 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Lance,Turtle,Okie and any others who are in Iraq and reading this...

Things appear to be becoming unhinged in certain parts of the middle east....Most of not all of the board realizes this is not by accident...this is by Iranian design...In my opinion the Iranians are attempting to inflame the entire region under two banners...the banner of "we are all muslims, ie arabs"...and "the banner of Islam for the fundamentalist"...So! Far it is going their way...

The Iranians are not going to allow the flame to die down....you are going to start to see more brazen kidnappings, mass ethnic murders, and riots in Iraq. Attacks against the coalition forces are going to pickup in Iraq...some of those attacks will start to be carried out by Iraqi Soldiers, Militia and Police who are loyal to Sistani and Sadr....Sadr will especilly incite the demostrations,riots, and mass killings... Presently, the Iraqi government will not do anything to stop him...Why? because he has been allowed to infiltrate the Police and Military..and has been giventoo much control at this time...Malaki could have stopped him a few months back but chose not too...I believe that was a poison pill...

The Iraqi Politicians will do what politicians have always done....talk to their base of support....that base of support is shiite...which just so happen to be under the leadership of Sistani and Sadr...Sistani is now calling for an end to the fighting in lebanon...it is my belief he is doing this simply because he has too...The Shiite Iraqi politicians are going to do the same...they are going to chastise the USA simply because they have too...simply because we support Israel....its a matter of survival....if and when it comes to the nut cutting time...the politicians are going to line up with Iran...As the tension increases you are going to start to see several things...

You are an independent contractor...the muslims who once were friendly to you are no longer going to talk to you as freely as they once did....they will not be unfriendly... just guarded..Your workers are going to start missing work...when you walk into the room full of muslim workers, things will start to get quiet.there are more but these are things you will pick up on.

These are the indications of the pyschological barrer being formed between you and them...you will soon be placed in the slot of "Infidel" mentally by them....this is a necessary change in order to place you in the position of enemy...You may have some come to you..and give you warning to not go out...or to leave their country...do not dismiss them...they will tell you to not do certain things alone...they are trying to protect you their way...but most will not risk they own life or their families for you...

Keep your eyes and ears to the ground...pay very close attention to your intuition...ya know the old gut feeling....follow it as if your life depends on it...because it does

I believe you will have time to get out of their if things start to get any worse...and if Iran can achieve it...it is going to get worse...they want Iraq bad...I believe you guys have about 4-8 months at the most...around the spring and beginning summer of 2007 all hell is going to break loose..

I am not a religious man...I consider myself more spiritual...so I really don't pray...but I assure you for the first time in many years I am going to ask the creator to give you, rest of the guys and our soldiers extra protection, and to assist you in getting your butt out of there safely...

Guys when it comes to what is happening now...I have been right...you can go back to my post 1 year ago and I stated what Iran was going to attempt to do...and what their plan was in uniting their empire...I believe what we are seeing and experiencing now is that attempt...I gave you the sequence of the events and how the Iraqi politicians would start to collapse...today's news about the iraq politicians back that up...more will start to join...

Israel is the catalyst but not the issue...Lebanon is not the issue...Gaza is not the Issue..they are only the tool in which the iranian planners have intended to use in expanding their empire...sadly the world governments it appears are going to be the spectators and not the preventors..

I hope I am totally wrong in my views...and things will settle back down....

-- July 31, 2006 8:33 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

The Next Sequence Of Events...

There will be an incident which will be the attempt to get Israel to attack Syria....Iran has already told us...that if Israel attacks Syria...they too will join in full battle with Israel...

If this happens...Iraq will be the next to follow as they will join under the Muslim banner and go to the ad of their Shiite Brothers...The anger toward the jews will be the weld that will seal the divide between the Sunni and Shiite...the Sunni will also join under this banner...the coalition forces will either be ask to leave..If we stay...the loss of life will be significant as we do not have the logistics or manpower to fight man to man in that area......either way we lose...
The command center will be Tehran...
What they have planned for is now set....THE FINAL STAGE...Global War... death... destruction... chaos...in the Iranians mind this has to occur in order to bring back the 12th Imada....
The 12th Imada will then assist in the spread of the Islamic Faith....and at the same time Iran will become the center of the middle east taking in all of what we now know as the CCG Countries...IT WILL BE KNOWN AS THE NEW PERSIAN EMPIRE...

That is the plan...can they carry it out...? Only if the other Arab countries jump in with the Shiites to fight Israel...and the Western Nations..That I believe is still a distance away..
and if the United Nations continues to perform as they have....the answer is.. highly possible...
The Governments that could stop all of this China...Russia...EU Nations and USA cannot agree on what flavors of milkshake should be ordered for the bonfire weinee roast much less anything significant...

-- July 31, 2006 9:28 PM ∞

---

Turtle wrote:

Carl: You're right in a lot of ways. A lot of what you are seeing now is an escallation from the same main players. At least in my area, things picked up when we killed Zarqawi. Of course, I'm based about 30 miles from where they popped him. The thing that most of the MSM left out was that we killed or captured about 140 top players in the 3 days following the Zarqawi bombing. About a week after that, we took out about 20 guys that were major munition runners. Oh yeah, that leader of that group just happened to be a top guy in the Mahdi army. So, to complete the argument you are forming, our favorite politician Al-Sadr is directly related to the huge increase in violence as a direct relaliation for us taking out a couple of his death squads. The question left to be answered is will we find a way to put that dog down while weathering the political fallout of taking him down. Keeping in mind your point that Sadr is NOT the only pro-Iranian in power. It's kinda nasty in my neighborhood. I'm still getting reports of great improvements to the north and south but we have got to form and execute a solid plan for securing central Iraq.

As for Iran, there is no question they are trying to pick a fight. The only question is where will Russia and China fall in this affair. Anyway, we have the forces in place to face Iran and Syria but it would be a rough affair. I really foresee this happening a tactical nukes being used. Sorry to be the pessimist, but I agree, this looks ugly to me and I do see myself in the middle. That said, I think most will agree that i cannot abandon the guys I support as long as they are willing to stand between me and the enemy.

Yeah, keep those prayers coming. Maybe we'll both be wrong and sanity will win the day. The dinar will peg at 3 dinar per $ and we'll all make the luau as multi millionaires. Except roger who will be the group's first billionaire with all the dinar he's stockpiling. I know, it's dreaming but if we're gonna dream why not dream big right?

-- July 31, 2006 11:02 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

My prediction...

There are always 2 sides to every war. We have people in groups called the CIA and Secret Service. Wouldn't it be best for us to unload sometype of non-flying nuclear war head into Iran; Somewhere near the capital? When it comes time, detonate the bomb and blame it on an Iranian Nuclear experiment gone bad. There will be no harsh feeling from the rest of the ME because they did this to themselves. Case closed. We'll come back in 10,000 years to help clean up the mess after its safe.

-- July 31, 2006 11:19 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Doom and Gloom Carl, AKA Nostradamus,

I understand where you are coming from, BUT, the previous silent majority, and the Gulf State moderates will not let it happen. REASON: Money & Trade. ANOTHER REASON: Uncle Sam, who will step on the Israelis, if they get out of hand. I think we are already starting to see Israel pull back. I do be believe that this will all come to a head, but I think the time is now. The rest of the Arab world is just fed up with this shi*.

Granted Iran wants to inflame the whole Mid East, but they have been trying to do that since the Seventies and it hasn’t worked. Most of the problems can be directly attributed to Syria and Iran supporting the Jihadist and Terrorists. Iraq used to be in this mix, but no longer except as an excuse against Americans. But most of the Arabs throughout the Mid East really don’t care about the new Persian Empire, and most don’t like or trust the Iranians to begin with. The Iranians speak a different language and are culturally different from the rest of the Mid East. Their only claim of solidarity is Islam, and in the long run, they know that it doesn’t pay the bills. Remember Iran is actually threatening them by declaring that the New Persian Empire will take over the world from India to Spain with them in charge. If I was the current ruler of a country within that area, I don’t think I would be very happy with that whole concept.

If you talk to the everyday Arab they look down on Hammas, Hesbollah, Palestinians, Al Qaida , or any of the others. They really wish that they would just go away or grow up and live in the real world. If all the Mid East Arab countries would ever get their act together as an economic entity, they would be much more of a problem, and we might see our grand children going to the Mosques.

Lance

-- August 1, 2006 12:01 AM ∞

---

Seeker wrote:

Re: Tylor
I can't seem to find any additional information on this topic but on aboutdinar.com someone has posted that the Iraqi parliment has gone on vacation for the next 30 days. Has anyone else heard anything about this?
-------------------
-------------------
2006 media advisories
Press Conference-Signing Ceremony with Senior Official
Baghdad, Iraq
July 31, 2006

WHAT:Press Conference and Signing Ceremony

WHO:Senior U.S. and Iraqi Officials

DATE:Tuesday, August 1, 2006

WHERE:GCD Auditorium (High Rise adjacent to the Prime Minister’s Office)

TIME:12:25 P.M. (Arrive before and no later than 12:00 noon)

SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS: This Press Conference/Signing Ceremony is open to CPIC-credentialed media only. Translation will be provided.

CONTACT: U.S. Embassy Spokesman’s Office – (914) 360-6395 or (914) 360-6452, Iraqna 07901-819-314, or BaghdadPressOffice@state.gov.

http://iraq.usembassy.gov/iraq/20060731_senior_us_iraqi.html
------------------
Isn't the religious time of ROMADON (hope I spelled that right) supposed to start soon?

-- August 1, 2006 1:20 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

One hour to go.. and all is well! :)

Sara.

-- August 1, 2006 3:04 AM ∞

---

C1Jim wrote:

It is 12:48 in Iraq.

-- August 1, 2006 4:49 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Gitmo guards often attacked by detainees
By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press Writer Aug 1 2006

WASHINGTON - The prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay during the war on terror have attacked their military guards hundreds of times, turning broken toilet parts, utensils, radios and even a bloody lizard tail into makeshift weapons.

Pentagon incident reports reviewed by The Associated Press show Military Police guards are routinely head-butted, spat upon and doused by "cocktails" of feces, urine, vomit and sperm collected in meal cups by the prisoners.

They've been repeatedly grabbed, punched or assaulted by prisoners who reach through the small "bean holes" used to deliver food and blankets through cell doors, the reports say.

"Detainee stabbed the MP guard ... in the hand with his spork from chow meal," the report said, adding the prisoner later "made a slicing motion across his neck" and vowed to kill the guard.

Nicolucci said one of the most serious incidents occurred this May, too recent to be recorded in the Pentagon's released reports. A prisoner staged an apparent suicide attempt while his inmates slicked the floors with human waste, seeking to overpower guards when they slipped, he said.

"We provide fans in order to keep them cool," Nicolucci recalled. "And they were using the basket, or the grate of the fan as a shield, the blades as machetes, the pole as a battering ram."

The Landmark Legal Foundation, a conservative legal group that fought to force the Pentagon to release the reports under the Freedom of Information Act, said it hopes the information brings balance to the Guantanamo debate.

"Lawyers for the detainees have done a great job painting their clients as innocent victims of U.S. abuse when the fact is that these detainees, as a group, are barbaric and extremely dangerous," Landmark President Mark Levin said. "They are using their terrorist training on the battlefield to abuse our guards and manipulate our Congress and our court system."

Though all detainees are foreigners, many are clearly Americanized when it comes to their insults and gestures. Male guards are frequently derided as "donkeys" while female guards are routinely called "bitches" or harassed by references to their breasts or genitalia, the reports said.

Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said "Our personnel there have perhaps the most difficult task you can have in the military outside of being in a combat zone. ... These are bad guys and some of the most hardened of hardened criminals. And some I think will need to be kept permanently."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060801/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/guantanamo_prisoner_attacks;_ylt=An.uzninkfJIUIh52oCp5f2s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3OTB1amhuBHNlYwNtdHM-

-- August 1, 2006 5:01 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Kurdish Foreign Investment Law contains..

Kurds regard Turkey as main economic partner
Ilnur Cevik
Aug 1, 2006 ERBIL

On Sunday the Kurdish regional government unveiled a landmark Foreign Investment and Incentives Law that allows foreigners 100 percent ownership, full transfer of profits and a minimum of 10 year's tax relief. They will also provide free land for investment.

Turkey is best situated to make maximum gains from the new law. Let us not miss this golden opportunity.

http://www.thenewanatolian.com/opinion-12027.html

-- August 1, 2006 5:39 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Israel ready to swap kidnapped soldiers with Lebanese prisoners -- paper

GAZA, Aug 1 (KUNA) -- Israel will release two Lebanese prisoners in return for the two soldiers abducted by Hezbollah, as part of a cease-fire agreement, government and defense officials said on Monday.

The sources had meanwhile told the paper "the UN Security Council would call for a cease-fire in Lebanon on Friday, and it could take effect as early as Saturday."

http://www.kuna.net.kw/Home/Story.aspx?Language=en&DSNO=892418

-- August 1, 2006 5:47 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Iraq power supply improves
01 Aug 2006 04:42:50 GMT
Source: Reuters

WASHINGTON, Aug 1 (Reuters) - Iraq's power supply has reached prewar levels and more Iraqis have access to clean water ...

The Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction, in its July 30 report to Congress released late on Monday, said that the democratic vote in May to chose a government was a huge step forward, as were improvements in supplying the population with water and power. It noted that most homes outside Baghdad had electricity for 12 hours a day and those in the city had power for eight hours a day.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N01342765.htm

-- August 1, 2006 6:10 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Lance:
I think you are totally right about how the Iranians are viewed by other arab countries...
However there is nothing about what I have stated is Nostradamus in nature...neither is it gloom or doom ...it is simply an observation of events to come...projected by the Iranians statements of intent...I didn't make this crap up...I am bringing it to the forefront so we as dinar investors can be aware of not only the progress that Iraqi is making in their effort to become a stable nation...but also of the attempt to destablize them...and to take over the political positions of Iraq...it wouldn't take a blind hog long to find that acorn of Iranian intent.

If you read what the Iranian leaders, ie political, mullahs, military generals have stated over the past 1 year...they have told us what they intend...then it is not too difficult to fiqure out the steps it takes to achieve that end or attempted end...simply ask yourself what you do?

Emotions overrule logic and reasoning....we in america experienced that when we got involved in a Civil War ourselves..and this caused us to kill members of our own family, friends, associates, etc in the hundreds of thousands......

The Iranians are simply using the emotion of hate to insight and the fuel of Muslim/ and Islam pride to bring fighting factions together and to keep it going...the common denominator is Israel and ignitor....The USA is going to be hit with the same broad brush, simply because America is not going to allow Israel to be ganged upon....does that sound logical and reasonable?

When the USA comes to Israels aid what do you supoose is going to happen in Iraq considering just the few statements of the Iraqi politicians in the past few days...? Now! that should make you have a very intense pucker factor..If you have a different view of how the Iraqi politicians are going to react...considering it is the shiites being attacked by Israel and the Iraqi politicians power is build solely within a shiite political base both in population and positions of strength within the Iraqi government...please feel free to give it here....if you were an Iraqi politician what would you do...when the shiite population and your shiite cabinet members started putting pressure on you ...? Would you go against your human nature of survival both political and even loss of your physical not mentioning your family's?

Now is that being gloom and doom or just making a reasonable deduction of probability..? Considering the basics of human nature...

Wars are hardly ever conducted in winter...it is usually spring and summer when offenses begin...it also takes time for logistics to catch up with planning....so we are coming to the end of summer...do you think any military general really wants to put his men fighting a ground battle in the winter...? Its 10 times as hard to supply and equip during that period..so if a showdown is to come with Iran...is it not pragmatic to think the next windows will be spring or early summer...?
I am not tea leaf reading here...don't dismiss this as some mystic shit...Hitler projected what he was going to do 2 years before he did it....and the world stood by with their thumbs up there rectum and allowed it to happen.... and believe me the Iranian showdown is going to happen...that I believe is 100% certain....

What I have stated in these post is common sense...a logical sequence of events to come if you want to achieve what Iran is attempting to do...will the other Arab Countries allow it to happen? Tell! Me! 10 things the other arab countries have done publicly to show they will not allow Iran to continue in their little gamemanship here...No! give us 5 examples of how the other arab countries have gone in and told Iran to stand down or they were going to put them down...! Or have you just heard that one loud continious thunder from most if not all...."THE ROLLING SOUND OF SILENCE"

So if what I have been posting does not agree with your ..."shall we all go play in the flower field and have a picnic senario" ....sorry!!! I want the Iraqi government to succeed as much as anyone else here...after all... I have several million dinar to exchange...and will buy more when we whip the Iranians ass.... so Iraq can continue to make progress without interference from those Assholes...

When a war mentality starts to develop there are stress pains and cracks that begin to show...the first is noticed in the demeanor of associates....again...do not ignore your intuition...its the best friend you have there...

-- August 1, 2006 7:49 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Examples of logic conflicting with Emotion...

Why did the American Civil War Start...and what really set it off..

Ans. Some will tell you it was about slavery....some other reasons...but the facts are this...most southerners back then did not owe land...and if they did it was a small plot...most never owned slaves....nor could they afford them if they had bought them...slavery was being attacked within the southern territories itself...so over a period of time...it would have faded away....Education was limited as most could not read or write...nor even allowed to vote...only males could vote...and then if you only owned land...most of news were brought by the circuit preachers and they were listen too as if their words were gold...

The iginator of the Civil War....the union army attack a small Fort in the South....otherwords a NORTHERN YANKEE had attacked a "SOUTHERNER" or ANOTHER SOUTHERN STATE....
The rest of the Southeners felt they had to go an defend their SOUTHERN BROTHERS....the politicians played it to the hilt.....otherwords they fueled the fire with SOUTHERN PRIDE as presented as an attack on the SOUTHERN WAY OF LIFE...SOUTHERN TRADITIONS...SOUTHERN HERTIAGES...THUS...LOGIC WENT OUT THE WINDOW and it was not seen for what it was...just an attack on a small fort in another place 4 states away...and if not pushed by the MSM, Circuit preacher riders... back then it would have died out.....and thousands of americans would not have killed each other...

Fact: Hamas and Hezballoh were the instigators of this conflict on going with Israel...
Fact: Iran and Syria are the supports and backers of these groups
Fact: All of the surrounding Arab nations and Iraqi's are aware of this...yet most have kept silent..except for a few short rebukes

Fact: Israel responded in self defense..stated enough...they were going to solve the problem with both hamas and hezballoh....

Fact: The other arab nations do not like Iran and think they are ignorant and a pain in the ass...they wish they would go away...

Fact: The Iraqi Officials know that Iran is behind a lot of their internal problems...

Fact: The Shiite and Sunni are ethnically killing each other...they hate each other with a passion.

Fact: The Lebanonese Government is guility of complicity and out right support of the hezbollah army...so to pretend they did not allow or could not control the hezballoh is mainly a bunch of crap..I don't see where they made even an effort...but they did include them in their government and give them voting powers..

Fact: Israel has stated time and time again for the civilians to get out of harms way....hezballoh has not once given any warning to any Israelli civilian as to where they are going to fire their rockets..

Fact: Israel has stated time and time again we are going after the terrorist not the lebanonese government...we want the lebanonese to take over the area hezballoh was allowed to control...however...the MSM media pushes the death toll of civilians...rarely mentioning that the hezballoh fighters fight behind the wall of women and children...

Fact: The Mullahs, Clerics, and some politicians are spreading in their speeches the Israelis are murdering all of the lebanonese and palistinian people...that they intend to wipe them out..

Fact: The Iraqi Sunni and Shiites are now coming together to go and fight the Israelies forgeting for the moment they hate each other with a passion

Fact: The Iraqi Politicians who are in power because of the USA and other coalition forces are now being chastised because we are supporting Israel in their right to defend themselves..

Fact: Eventhou the Arab League of Nations, Iraqi People etc...know that Hamas and Hezballoh started this...I don't believe I have heard any Arab nation or Iraqi Politician say...Hey! the Israelies are right and it is logical that they defend themselves against such aggression...Lets go help the Israelies defeat these jerks and get the region back to the business of commerce and living peacefully with our neighbors..

Logic would simply state that the Arab Countries and Lebanonese would come down on hezballoh, hamas, Iran and Syria for endangering the region...instead you now have the Arab Leaque of Nations jumping on the bandwagon of support for hezballoh and Hamas...logical no...emotionally understandable...Yes!!! Why because the "JEWS" are fighting ARABs or MUSLIMS forget the reason...

Take the word "SOUTHERNER" out and INSERT ARAB OR MUSLIM OR ISLAM...mix it with fire speeches of Jewish Hate and the matches called "OCCUPIER" and you are going to get an explosion...the ingredients are deadly...and I am not sure if time will allow for enough fire retardant foam to be gathered before it ignites

-- August 1, 2006 9:35 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

For any on here that have an Interest in Al-Warka bank.

They have now gone on-line to the point where you can sign on and do some basic services like check balances and transfer money between accounts, etc.

They're still expanding their system but this is a major step for them since their Main branch is located in the Baghdad area.

-- August 1, 2006 9:53 AM ∞

---

Terri wrote:

Does anyone know what the big "signing conference" was about? I can't seem to find any information on it...

-- August 1, 2006 11:10 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Yes, terri.. it was apparently the signing of AGRICULTURAL agreements. It was not the FI Law.

===

Iraq and America sign of a memorandum of understanding to support the agricultural sector of Iraqi

Baghdad - (Voices of Iraq)

And signed by Iraq and the United States of America today, Tuesday, a memorandum of understanding to share experiences and to support the agricultural sector in Iraq. The memorandum was signed by the Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister on security and services Alzobai Sallam, and the US side Mike Johannes and US Secretary of Agriculture.

-- August 1, 2006 11:27 AM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

Well, when we look back on this "signing" and "announcement" from yesterday, they posted this notice of a press conference 12 hours before it was to happen.
Does it really make sense that they would do this if it was going to announce the "peg" of the Dinar? Can you even imagine the run on the Dinar over that 12 hour period?
I have not checked EBay, but was there a lot of activity during that time or did any of the dealers that read these posts have excess Dinar purchase activity?

I still believe that when it's announced, it will be absolutely Sudden. No advance notice whatsoever.

-- August 1, 2006 12:38 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

My friend Carl.. you are a pragmatic:

prag·mat·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prg-mtk)
adj.

- Dealing or concerned with facts or actual occurrences; practical.

- Philosophy. Of or relating to pragmatism.

- Relating to or being the study of cause and effect in historical or political events with emphasis on the practical lessons to be learned from them.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pragmatic

I appreciate your pragmatic insights and hope that the region can avoid the war you so very clearly see the Middle East region is being steered toward. Seeing the rocks might keep the boat afloat, if anyone is listening.. :)

I am hoping that the Middle East does not wish a war and that they will see it as UNECONOMICAL, because, frankly, the root of all evil, including war, is MONEY. (The love of money is the root of all evil - 1 Tim 6:10) If that incentive can be taken away, they will not do this. Currently, the Middle Eastern powers do not see the Iranians as enemies who will take over their own countries and kick them out of power but as a way to gain financially once the US is removed, so they fit into their plans. But, like Hitler, once Iran's leader gets more power, he will use it to try and take the entire region, making it UNECONOMIC in the long run and truly against the long term Middle Eastern power's best interests - no matter what Iran is saying in backrooms now to placate and pacify them and make them go along. Iran's leader is, after all, a fox seeking to steal a henhouse for himself and his country (and give a cut to those who help him). Do they honestly believe him incapable of turning on them and doing the same to them? Lust for power and coveting of riches do not only extend to Iraq, but to those helping him divide the spoils.. removing them means that he doesn't have to give them a cut. Do they think he is above such motivations?

It is to gain power and wealth for themselves that Iran is trying to make war.. and those going along are not doing it for Islam and Arab brotherhood but they are only JUSTIFYING it under that banner. In reality the Iranians are coveting the wealth of the region because of their own depleting supplies - and to start with they covet close to home - the oil fields of Iraq.

If you remove the incentive for others to come to their aid and fight with them for the spoils the winner gets from the war - Iraq and its oil fields - by giving the regional powers more of the oil contracts in Iraq - GIVE THEM more of the MONEY - they will not feel that they will benefit if Iran wins. They would see a win for Iran as a lose for themselves and Iran will lose its support. If the powers which would support Iran would be given a large chunk of interest in Iraq, they would not be so eager to support Iran. Pragmatically, the only real reason they are cooperating at all when they hate each other so much is mutual interest... promises of money and oil, right?

Those are my thoughts on the matter.. give the ME powers more of the lucre and they might not let the bad guys come in and take over. The bad guys are promising them a big enough cut to make it worth their while, you can be sure - the ME powers will only let the bad guys in and support them if they think they will profit from it. Make it economically unwise and I think Iran will lose the support they need to wage a war - they will find themselves talking til they are blue in the face but they won't ignite anything in the region. Douse the flames with monetary interest in the region - make the ME powers to have more monetary interest in Iraq's Democracy succeeding - and I believe you can win the region away from war peacefully.

It's a pragmatic solution.. do you think it might fit, Carl... board?

Thoughtfully,

Sara.

-- August 1, 2006 1:04 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

International Relations

U.S. administration expresses optimism about international support package for Iraq
By MARTIN CRUTSINGER

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

01 August 2006 (AP Worldstream)
Several nations have said they are willing to help boost international economic support for Iraq, the Bush administration said Monday.

Deputy Treasury Secretary Robert Kimmitt, President George W. Bush's special envoy on the issue, said he was optimistic the necessary work will be completed in coming months so that an international conference to collect pledges of financial support can be held by the end of the November.

He said France and Germany, two countries that opposed the U.S.-led Iraq war, are participating in meetings chaired by the Iraqi government and the United Nations to discuss development of an International Compact for Iraq.

Under the compact, Iraq would pledge to undertake a number of economic reforms and estimates would be developed of how much financial support Iraq would need through 2012 to rebuild its economy.

That estimate would include money that Iraq could be expected to raise, primarily through oil exports, with any deficit made up by international donors. Kimmitt said it was too soon to say how much money would be needed, but the goal was to develop a financing plan by October.

The compact was set up in June at the request of Iraq's new prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki. Both he and Bush have called for greater international efforts to rebuild Iraq's economy, seen as key to combating political instability in the country.

Countries participating in the working group include the United States, Britain, the 25-nation European Union, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Japan, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates.

Kimmitt said, "Countries understand the need to play a constructive role."

***He said the compact would be discussed at the September meeting of the United Nations in New York and at annual meetings of the International Monetary Fund and World Bank, in Singapore in September.*****

A donors' conference for Iraq held in Madrid in 2003 raised an initial $13.5 billion (A10.6 billion), but so far only $3.5 billion to $4 billion (A2.75 billion to A3.1 billion) of that amount has been disbursed, Kimmitt said. He said he is seeking commitments in his discussions with other countries on when the rest of the money will be forthcoming.

Kimmitt said Iraq has been meeting the economic reform requirements of a preliminary IMF loan program in spite of continued violence in the country.

"This is a country that has faced a difficult security situation for some time, and they are living up to their obligations," Kimmitt told reporters.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php/article/9659

Perhaps RV in September??

-- August 1, 2006 1:07 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Conjecture...

Supposing these new Foreign Investment laws make it possible for those interested in Iraq's wealth to take a cut? Supposing the Powers That Be already went this route of thinking and the FI Law will placate those who might support Iran and allow those potential allies a larger interest in the oil field profits? Might that not be a way to win the war by making it uneconomic to oppose the interests of Iraq?

Sara.

-- August 1, 2006 1:23 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Sara:
Logically it would fit....but we are not dealing with logic...if that was the case...Saudi Arabia and the CCG Countries would have already kicked Irans and Syria's butt just for the principal of the situation...

Violent Emotions have need no for justification other than that which angers, incites hate or revenge...
I have stated before....and I still believe this...Israel and the USA have to start making pro-active decisions and block Irans intentions before they have a chance to create a major incident...We have some smart people in these think tanks...for the likes of me...I can't fiqure out what they are doing...as it appears they are getting caught with their pants down reading the Sears and Roebuck Catalog Lingerie Section, instead of paying attention and anticipating what Syria and Iran are doing...

The USA needs to put pressure on the Arab Leaque of Nations to stop this SHIT as President Bush would say....Aid,Support,Provide logistics, Intellengence, etc...But allow the middle eastern nations who are going to be destroyed economically by Irans unbridled goals to take the overt actions necessary to remove this ignitor of the region... The UN needs to be told to go sit in the corner until called to clean the mess up after we are through...appeasement does not work....Iran just looks at appeasement as a sign of spineless talk...the UN has proven that over and over and over and over....I believe 17 times with Saddam...

Will this happen...probably not....

-- August 1, 2006 1:54 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

I would like to see an RV sooner rather than later, but it may be later rather than sooner. In my mind an RV is still a number of months if not years away, but I reserve the right to be wrong.

It makes sense for there to be the beginnings of a free market economy and signficant oil production. These two items contribute to valid economic numbers that reflect true GNP and GDP for Iraq before currency values are changed.

Thanks,

Rob Nowlin

-- August 1, 2006 2:01 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Rob:
Now you are being pragmatic...but it does make sense...

-- August 1, 2006 2:06 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

I went back and began reading some of the old post from 2004, I am curious to know where those previous posters have gone?

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 1, 2006 3:08 PM ∞

---

Ron wrote:

rob i am still here just been silent with nothing to say yet

-- August 1, 2006 3:53 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Ron N........

Iknow! Iknow! The previous posters have gone on to the Island and getting ready for the pig roast....they're just waiting on the rest of us slugs to bring the dinar up and join them....
Com'on Dinar

-- August 1, 2006 5:25 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

What happened to the old posters?
One word...

"Dinarburnout"

OK, it is two words..
but that about says it all.

"Dinar burnout"

-- August 1, 2006 6:23 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Understanding Burnout

Two important definitions of burnout are:

“A state of physical, emotional and mental exhaustion caused by long term involvement in emotionally demanding situations.” - Ayala Pines & Elliott Aronson

“A state of fatigue or frustration brought about by devotion to a cause, way of life, or relationship that failed to produce the expected reward.” – Herbert J Freudenberger

http://www.mindtools.com/stress/Brn/StressIntro.htm

Burnout symptoms of emotional nature include, but are not limited to, prolonged periods of

apathy
frustration
depression
anger
negative or cynical attitude
being unexcited about life
inclinations to high risk behaviors
high emotional volatility
high irritability

http://www.time-management-guide.com/burnout-symptoms.html

-- August 1, 2006 6:40 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Note that burnout causes..

FRUSTRATION.. due to a failure to produce the expected REWARD

which results in HIGH IRRITABILITY...

emotional volatility.. negative and cynical attitude... ANGER and depression.

Now, I am not so sure we have any of that here, but..

I think this is why SOME people make it their hobby to attack rumor posters.. such as the current round of attacks on Clay at the IDI... a rumor poster who doesn't even post on that forum, but receives the brunt of their frustration in attacks caused by their disappointed hopes when the Dinar does not peg as predicted.

Just my take on it.

Sara.

-- August 1, 2006 8:23 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

As for the old posters from here who do not post much anymore... rather than being the sort who get angry and attack people.. I think they fit the characteristic they mentioned of becoming apathetic. They just became apathetic toward the Dinar investment due to their disappointed hopes for a short term Revaluation and put it on the shelf or sold it.

ap·a·thy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (p-th)
n.
Lack of interest or concern, especially regarding matters of general importance or appeal; indifference.

An absence of emotion or enthusiasm 2: the trait of lacking enthusiasm for or interest in things generally

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apathy

We are still here because we didn't really think it was a short term investment and we are willing to wait until it pans out, whether in the short or long term.

Sara.

-- August 1, 2006 8:33 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Carl,

Have been rolling lately, catched up and must say you have some very good ..well ..pragmatic postings. Seems we all love that word now.

In principal, reasoning I agree with you, I must, however agree on one point Lance have. You know the Doom and Gloom.

This point Im getting to is so hard to describe because it's more intuition and after thought. Perhaps a portion of naive thought and belief in humans.

The sequence, cause and effect must follow the steps you are laying out, but it will lead to a very destructive war, and probably an epocalypse of some sort.

Rodney Kings, place on this earth was probably to leave us all with the expression "can't we all get along".

It doesn't look good for the forseable future with Iran, and its leaders intentions.

This is the point, and question.

Are people inherently evil?

I dont think so, pushed to a point of terror, an "evil " person will see the light.
Only problem, the leader might sit in a bunker like Hitler, protected, and when HE PERSONALLY was cornered, he finnished off the blood orgie by biting the bullet.

I think this subject touches very close to the sane and insane discussion.

There are obviously insane people around, but looking at daily life, they are very very few, and in you life time I'm sure you have encountered much fewer of those than the sane man walking the street.

I believe that was what Lance was touching on, most people just want to live their life and dont give a rats ass about Jihad or Hezbolla.

They are basically good people , like the working Joe here, completely happy with a Bud and Superbowl.

I do believe all people are basically good, even the pshycotics, and insane, in their twisted mind, they believe what they are doing will be survival. Even if it is destruction, but their main motivation is survival.

If you would walk the streets of Theheran right now, and by accident something fell from a highrise building, hit you and hurt you, people around you would rush to you , to help.

The good in people is everywhere.

A very small clique of fanatics are running Iran.

As kidnapping them and put them in a rehabilitation center is an unreal option, and as their goal is to kill me, I must conclude that I must kill them first.

As nuclear power is in the mix right now, it's more a race over time.

I really have a hard time writing my point other than simply state, would'nt it be a horreneous waste of good people on this earth, if we start nuking.

Majority of Iranians, are good buddies waking around ducking and abliging the guys with the bull horns.

When this whole affair is said and done, those are the people I want to see taking over the rudder in Iran. If we nuke, there wont be any.

I have such a darn problem with this, if we wait too long, the Iranians (religious leaders) will nuke us or Israel or a combination of both.

If we do take them out, the whole regime strata must be taken out, otherwise they retaliate, and were in the nuke business again.

In order to take them out, it could be done as a supprise action, with some pinpoint missiles, when their combined prayer/goverment is in session.

That wont happen either, as we have an idea that we're going to bring everything to the UN.

If the bad guys are inherently evil or not , we could perhaps discuss it further, but agreeable is the fact that the absolute majority of people of any nation is good people, with no wish or intent to harm.(I know, brainwash them and...)

If this Iran conflict get to a point, and is pushed to few options, then it's a matter if enough good people with enough sanity can be a bigger factor than the small group of insane evil doers wanting their version of Islam.

Perhaps in the end, you are ultimately responsible for the regine you have, and "I just followed orders" is no longer a valid reason, that was established in the Nuhrenberg trials.

That is an obligation to follow sanity.

I have no clue where this Iran thing is going, but I just know that there must be some good out there.

I'm afraid that the US goverment have no idea how to neuter the good in Iran, everytime they walk around in different cultures, it's with clownshoes, and any effort to get a broad based support for an internal coup in Iraq, some anal "whissleblower" that have a missguided idea of patriotism will immediately give the whole program to NY times, they will publish it under the first ammendment, probably with names, commanders, contacts, and the whole enchilada.

Yes, there is such a doom and gloom over this whole thing, I'm just desperately looking for the good somewhere.

There got to be some light. I would hate to give in to this only option of making hot melted glass out of Iran.

They deserve to live.

-- August 1, 2006 11:49 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Carl you wrote to Sara:

Logically it would fit....but we are not dealing with logic...if that was the case...Saudi Arabia and the CCG Countries would have already kicked Irans and Syria's butt just for the principal of the situation...

Most third world countries (GCC, ME) have Militaries that are small and defensive only. They may have the best equipment; Abrahams Tanks, F16 Fighter Jets, etc… But what they don’t have are the quantities (bodies) in uniform to go after Iran or Syria. Iran especially has a huge population of unemployed and uneducated to draw from and put into Martyr Brigades, and this is exactly what they have been doing for a while. Besides giving these “now” soldiers a pretty uniform and very little pay, this is mainly for show, and a quick way to keep them out of trouble. Look back to the bloody conflict between Iran and Iraq in the ‘80’s. Hundred’s of thousands killed on each side with no apparent goal achieved. I believe that the goals of both governments WERE achieved. They took their excess unemployable and thus potential problem males, gave them guns, pretty uniforms, and sent them to be slaughtered. Cheap population reduction by getting rid of those that might rebel against you. You also get to rally the nation against the evil other side, plus a reason to acquire new toys (arms/weapons) to play with. Overall I think both of them achieved their goals quite well. Now it’s 2 generations later and the problem is back again. Your economy sucks, and you have all those people (mainly male) that have nothing else to do. These I know for facts, as I was here helping to support, who else but our buddy at the time Saddam.

Things are much more complicated now, especially for Iran. It is almost impossible for them to use these Martyr Brigades except as show, as a means of waving the flag, employment for the disenfranchised, and as a propaganda tool. They can’t and won’t attack Iraq, and the logistics of getting them anywhere that they might be useful (remember, all they are is bodies in uniform and not very well trained) doesn’t exist. It is the logistics that is the killer, with no way to get them where you need them. So you (Iran) use puppets that are already on the ground where you need them Hezbolla, Hammas, etc…. But the problem now is that the attention of the whole world is on you. You also have the issue of the Gulf Arabs being rich and powerful (politically & monetarily). You are finding out that no one really likes you, trust you, and most consider you a backward idiot with no concept of how the world has changed over the past 2 decades. Your saber rattling and attempts to radicalize Islam have now isolated you from the rest of the Arab world.

You now have a bigger problem. You have put all these uneducated/unemployable males in uniform, given them guns, and you can’t let them do what you promised i.e. kill the infidels. So I think that we may very well reach a crisis point within Iran it’s self. The population will only put up with Bread and Circuses for so long, and for not much longer if they can’t provide the bread. Iran may indeed start something on their own, but it will be suicidal in the long run. When that happens we will step on them at the request of others, even if we have to use the bomb. Yes, I mean a surgical nuke strike. If it comes to the point where we really pull off the gloves, the rest of the world will give a sigh of relief. I think the world and the rest of the Arabs are very, very tired of them and their Ayatollahs. I hope that it never gets to that point, and they just melt down internally which is the direction I think they are headed. So if you see any Help Wanted Jobs for President of Iran, I don’t think I would apply.

P.S. Carl, just kidding about the Nostradamus. I do believe that something will happen, but no idea when or where. It might in fact just slowly die down, but I just don’t see the invasions happening. I really hope that we are all wrong on “OUR” doom and gloom potential scenarios. Hope Condelezza actually makes diplomacy work.

-- August 2, 2006 12:04 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

All,

Remember today, the 2nd is the Executive Board Meeting of the IMF on Iraq. The results of the 2nd Article IV.

Now this is should impact our investment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lets hope for a positive impact.

Roger, you beat me by 15 minutes with your response to Carl. I guess I need to type faster.

-- August 2, 2006 12:21 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Roger,

It's scary. We were both thinking about the nuke option at the same time. We have to quit this, but I am afraid that with our military stretched so thin, it might put us in the same position Truman had in '45.

-- August 2, 2006 12:25 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Lance....Roger

Good responsive post...well thoughout!

-- August 2, 2006 12:43 AM ∞

---

sherii wrote:

http://biz.yahoo.com/hftn/060801/080706_8382603.html?.v=1

........................
Now Iraq's Finance Minister, Bayan Jabor, has come up with a plan to make it easier to shop (not to mention rob a bank): He wants to revalue the currency, chopping three zeroes off the dinar, and peg it to the dollar. That's one way of lightening the average Iraqi's wallet.

WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- August 2, 2006 4:40 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Sherri,

The lop theory has been killed on this and other sites, not to mention by the Director of the CBI. This is all old news, just rehashed by the MSM to show how bad things are over here. Look back through the posts from about the middle of July on.

-- August 2, 2006 8:33 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Within the past 24 hours Al-Warka Bank in Baghdad has reached the level of expertise that allows on-line banking. This is a sign of progress in their Banking systems and a very positive step.

As I explored their site I noticed the "foreign exchange" section only listed six currencies:

US DOLLAR
EURO
STERLING POUND
JORDANIAN DINAR
UAE DIRHAM
KUWAIT DINAR

I'm sure they will add more later but I think it indicates their current trading partners. It might also make a great "basket of currencies" on which to base a future RV. Makes you think...doesn't it?

-- August 2, 2006 8:58 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Lance....

Thanks for the reminder about the IMF meeting.

-- August 2, 2006 9:49 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Every Southerner That Hunts Knows...

You can kill a deer with a single high powered solid round vs a shotgun blast which may kill a duck if you are close enough...shooting into the mass of flying ducks just makes them fly higher..
The point is this...to win a battle you do not always have to fight the army..select your target...be specific...be patient...plan what you need to do to remove the ignitors of the conflict you have...then neutralize the situation

In any conflict there are three levels ....Strategic(Political).....Operational(Commanders)....Tactical(Fighting Line)

What are the things you want to inflict on the enemy..... fog/friction/ confusion/uncertainity

Both of these will affect the spirit and moral of the enemy..it weakens the resolve of the adversay in seeing that direct battle does his side more harm than achievement...battle is not always about destroying cities,people,mass group of soldiers and weapons...loss of life and property damage is strickly a by product of attempting to get the other side to bend to your view point..and if possible to be avoided...that is the least of all actions desired...

I would say the War On Terrorist started Officially on 9/11....but there is a problem....you see war doesn't start unless it is accepted in the mind and heart of the people..America has a lot of politicians and citizens in which the war has not personally started in them....thus in there mind we are not at war...and thus the conflict with the ones who have recognized it as such...

Example of being specific beyond the obvious...
Iran hates us for many reasons but in their minds we have a decadent way of living...they dispise our clothes, music,hairstyles, shoes, books, movies, etc...anything Western is considered of the great Saten...even our language..and words...

Why do they fear it so...because it weakens their grip on the people...that is one reason why we have scared the bezees out of them...with being so close to them with a form of democracy in Iraq....it weakens and threatens the power brokers...

It makes me want to pull my hair out when I hear President Bush talk about Sanctions...the first thing that comes into my mind is ..."Are you blind?...." Look at Cuba, Iraq, Libria, etc...did Sanctions work? Doesn't history teach you anything..." Look at the results of previous sanctions...
All Sanctions do is create Ill will from the people of the country you are wanting to influence to start with...The people really had no say in the conflict...ITS THE LEADERS STUPID...

It also creates a blackmarket of western goods...it creates a commerce for your other European markets who would have had America as a competitor, if our politicians had not shut our own merchants down...WOW! now that is a stroke of GENIUS showing through..

AGAIN...SANCTIONS DO NOT WORK..THEY DO THE OPPOSITE....just like putting drug users in prison does not lessen the demand for drugs...Our American leaders to me sometimes are such dump asses...

All they have to do is understand the human mind...Its the oldest method in the book to use the Puppy Dog Sale...give someone something that improves their life and then try and take it away in 2 months....you have just made a sale...

Simply "FLOOD" the country you want to influence with goods from your country that will make their way of living better...more pleasant and enjoyable...give them items that will allow them to achieve their goals...KEEP FLOODING the area with these goods...its a whole lots cheaper than 10 missleS...not only does this give the masses things they can use and get them use to our lifestyle...but it also bankrupts their governmental coffers as no sales are being made from their factories...now the business owners are getting upset at their own leaders...also the people or indirectly affected because of unemployment...this ignites internal unrest from the people not from an invading army, that they can rally the region around...now after one year...see what happens when the present leaders attempt to take the items away....it will not be long before the existing leaders are gone..."THAT IS THEIR ACHELLES HEEL"

Will it always work?....don't know! I really don't think it has been tried by our government...but it is a start at thinking outside of the box...

-- August 2, 2006 9:53 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Carl,

Great post. If you read about current Iran you will see that this is exactly one of the problems being experienced by the government. Too much western influence, and you are right that it is driving the Ayatollahs crazy. But the common people love their Lincolns and TV's.

Embargos/sanctions are just the first step in the long "Diplomatic" road to making them look bad, and making all the governments feel better when we do have to beat the hell out of them. The only problem is that it takes so damned long. Oh by the way it did actually work against Libya in the long run. One of our actual wins. Got to go been at work for 15 hours. Can't wait to see the responses tomorrow.

-- August 2, 2006 10:18 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I've heard from friends that the US Special Forces are active in the Baghdad area and have "taken the gloves off" when dealing with the leaders of the thugs. Several of these leaders are no longer with us and more are on the list to be visited.

==========================================================

Iraq vows security takeover this year By SAMEER YACOUB, Associated Press Writer
26 minutes ago

BAGHDAD, Iraq - President Jalal Talabani said Wednesday that Iraqi forces will assume security duties for the whole country by the end of the year, taking over responsibility from U.S. and other foreign troops now policing all but one of the 18 provinces. The optimistic forecast came during a relative lull in the violence wracking Iraq. Police said nine people were slain Wednesday, a day after a wave of bombings and shootings killed more than 70.
>
>
>
>
U.S. officials have described the Baghdad campaign as a "must-win" for al-Maliki, whose government has struggled to curb violence since taking office May 20. American troops will work alongside U.S.-trained Iraqi forces.

As part of the campaign against militias, U.S. troops on Tuesday arrested a Baghdad-area representative of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, whose Mahdi Army is among the most feared armed groups.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060802/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_talabani_security_9

-- August 2, 2006 10:42 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Carl;

I was very glad to see your post "thinking outside the box" and your thought-work on the economic side. Very interesting food for thought - the idea of using goods to make the people dependent on cheap imports as a military strategy. It made me think.. do we have anyone we buy cheap imports from at the expense of US products and productivity? Is this very same method of warfare being used against us? Hmmmm...

I also found interesting your saying that the War on Terror started officially on 911... but not in the minds of "a lot of politicians and citizens" in America. I do see that as a BIG problem. These people who have put their heads in the sand like ostriches - thinking that we can view the entire situation like no war has been declared - are dangerous. They are not acting or speaking according to REALITY. They appear to think if we are nice, the radical terrorists will be nice and peaceful back to us. They also think if we just pull out of Iraq (or redeploy, as they call it) the problem with radical terrorists will disappear and 911 was a temporary aberration to be swept under the rug and forgotten. Thus the conflict only continues to be addressed by those who have recognised that we are in a War on Terror - while these folks, like insane people walking aimlessly about on a battlefield speaking peace to the wounded and and showing compassion to the hurt, claim that all that is needed to stop the war is to withdraw from the conflict and speak peace and love instead of war. Battle commanders just aren't impressed with such rhetoric (loud and confused and empty talk; "mere rhetoric"). Hitler would not have been deterred by such talk, nor will those of his ilk in this current global conflict. The other side has GOALS.. I wish they would apprise themselves of what they actually are.

I also found interesting your statement, "loss of life and property damage is strictly a byproduct of attempting to get the other side to bend to your view point.." I agree with you that weakening the morale of the other side, using the coverage of an eager media which concentrates on the loss of life - rather than the goals which must be accomplished to bring about peace and an end of terrorist activity - is indeed a military strategy. I wish it were a more understood point.

God bless and protect those in harm's way and their families, and give comfort and all the support necessary to those who have been harmed or had loved ones killed in this NECESSARY war which is fighting for a greater goal which must be accomplished - lasting peace.

This war is complex and I have to agree with Roger's compassionate assessment of the Iranian component, "it's a matter if enough good people with enough sanity can be a bigger factor than the small group of insane evil doers wanting their version of Islam. There is an obligation to follow sanity. There must be some good out there. There got to be some light. I would hate to give in to this only option of making hot melted glass out of Iran. They deserve to live."

I too wish peace and sanity to prevail, not evil, war, bloodshed and horror. But I do believe that the GOALS of this war are lasting peace, safety and the greater good, and that the only way the US will go to war with Iran is if they feel it is necessary - in other words only if they are FORCED to do so. I know the enemies think the US actually wishes to go to war and I am aware of the conspiracy theories, but the rational, logical and normal mentality is truly shared by the politicians in power in the US. They are not making war for profit, prestige or self-aggrandisement - and if the enemy sympathizers and tools would stop sweeping 911 under the rug and telling us to ignore the threats by the enemy as bogus and hot air, those who don't even believe this is a war would be less likely to be looked upon as needing to be committed to an asylum for the insane.

Sara.

-- August 2, 2006 11:12 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Carl....

Good post about "thinking outside the box" when dealing with the terrorist nations.

I'll bet if we passed out free I-Pods in Iran, with positive subliminal western thoughts on them, we could have Democratic elections within 12 months.

And like you say, it would be a lot cheaper than war.

-- August 2, 2006 11:12 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Iranians with blue hair and studded toungues, well....I hate the style but it will help the Iranians. The I-Pod idea is great.
Rock n roll was one of the underground cultures in the Soviet. I have never heard of any big middle east artist that have got attention to the level like in the west we give Travolta, Beatles, Stones and Sinatra.
That might be the first sign of relief, a big artist could be created , not neccesarily in Iran, it could be in Iraq, where we have control. Word will spread, something that girls wiil scream at, boys all want to be the same.
We could export Howard Stern, we dont need him here, but over there, they badly need him.
Carl, now your talking, this is the winning line.

-- August 2, 2006 11:51 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Dems unite in call for ’06 Iraq pullout

Key Democratic leaders in the House and Senate have united to call on President Bush to begin pulling US troops out of Iraq by the end of the year, citing an overtaxed military, billions of dollars spent and ongoing sectarian violence.

In a letter to Bush released Monday, the Democrats backed a plan for the “phased redeployment” of troops.

“US forces in Iraq should transition to a more limited mission focused on counterterrorism, training and logistical support of Iraqi security forces and force protection of US personnel,” the Democrats wrote.

Bush has consistently said there will be no such pullout until the fledgling Iraqi government can secure its position and Iraq’s security forces can defend the country.

Republicans said the letter amounted to Democratic leadership surrendering to terrorists.

“The Democratic leadership continues to demand that American soldiers end their mission and wave the white flag of surrender to the terrorists that we are fighting in Iraq,” Ron Bonjean, a spokesman for House Speaker Dennis Hastert, said in a statement.

The US military death toll in Iraq fell for a third straight month in July, 44 US troops were killed in July, well below the war’s average US monthly death toll of just under 64.

http://www.arabtimesonline.com/arabtimes/world/Viewdet.asp?ID=8198&cat=a

-- August 2, 2006 11:54 AM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Iraq's central bank offers stability amid chaos
02 Aug 2006 12:40:15 GMT
Source: Reuters
Printable view | Email this article | RSS [-] Text [+]
Background
Iraq in turmoil
More By Alister Bull and Mariam Karouny

BAGHDAD, Aug 2 (Reuters) - Iraq's central bank offers a beacon of stability in a country on the brink of civil war, but the governor is still forced to use safe houses for meetings with guests too scared to visit his headquarters downtown.

Sinan al-Shabibi makes light of the bank's location a few blocks from Haifa Street, one of the most dangerous places in Baghdad. But many prefer to avoid the narrow road that leads to the bank, fearing it is too easy for potential kidnappers to block.

"It is very difficult. In many cases we see a lot of people outside. We designate a house or something like that and see them," he told Reuters in a recent interview in his third floor office, overlooking an internal courtyard.

The central bank is on Rasheed Street, long Baghdad's financial centre, and next to its old headquarters, badly damaged during the 2003 U.S.-led invasion to topple Saddam Hussein and from which his son Qusay allegedly stole $1 billion on the eve of war.

Approached through a bustling market, the bank remains in the heart of the city, in contrast to most government operations which have moved to the heavily fortified Green Zone on the other side of the Tigris river.

"It is very difficult to work somewhere else. All the banks are here and all the staff. We can always have alternative offices, but it is better to be with the staff of the bank," said Shabibi, who spent 11 years at the United Nations and was Iraqi Minister of Planning from 1977 to 1980.

The guardian of Iraq's new currency, the central bank was re- created by U.S. occupiers in the image of a modern institution with its independence enshrined in law.

NEW APPROACH

It now conducts daily foreign currency auctions, in which the Iraqi dinar has maintained striking stability at around 1,475 dinar to the dollar despite an Iraqi inflation rate of 52.5 percent year-on-year in June.

Shabibi says there is no intervention to keep the dinar strong. Nor is there a black market currency price, indicating the official exchange rate reflects real dinar purchasing power.

The very model of a modern monetary policy maker, Shabibi said: "The most important objective of the central bank is the preservation of price stability. That is why we are concerned and monitoring the (inflation) situation."

Interest rates were raised to 12 from 10 percent in July and Shabibi said in the interview further action might be needed.

All this marks a sea change from the mismanagement the central bank endured under Saddam, whose government used its overdraft at the bank to print money while saddling it with debts that were never paid.

Shabibi said a recent audit of the bank by accountants Ernst and Young, which has not been published yet, gave it a clean bill of health from corruption, but exposed the costs of years of abuse.

"It opened our eyes to what kind of losses we had in operations and to losses from outside our operations, which were put on our balance sheet, and that is not fair," he said.

The same treatment was meted out to state-owned lenders Rasheed Bank and Rafidian Bank, which the central bank must now restructure in cooperation with the ministry of finance.

***Shabibi said changes to create the healthy banking system needed for economic progress in Iraq would happen soon.***

But he declined to be more specific, displaying a gift for sidestepping questions that he claimed to have learned from the former chairman of the Federal Reserve.

"We had some technical assistance from Alan Greenspan in being vague," he said.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L02107786.htm

Possible RV??!!

-- August 2, 2006 11:55 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Taylor:

I would like to think an RV is around the corner, but the one enigmatic word in your post is the word "soon". In other words, soon is so vague that a time frame can not be assessed from its use.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 2, 2006 12:08 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

This is good news!! They're talking about huge amounts of money to develop these oil fields.
==========================================================

BAGHDAD, Aug 2 (Reuters) - Iraq is expected to start talks with major companies in two months to develop its oilfields and some are eager to begin work even before a hydrocarbon law is in place, its oil minister said on Wednesday.

"I think within two months we will begin talking to the companies and negotiate and decide the fields which need to be developed," Oil Minister Hussain al-Shahristani told Reuters in an interview.

Shahristani said he had met officials from the major oil companies, American and European, during a visit to Washington with Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki last week.

"We talked about Iraq's vision and plans. The companies were happy. In return the companies expressed their readiness to start working immediately," he said.

"They (the companies) told us that the security situation does not stop them from working here because they work in difficult conditions in other countries," he added

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/GEO247098.htm

-- August 2, 2006 1:16 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Okie:

Yes, your post is good news. I do believe this is one of the keys to a higher revalue for the Dinar.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 2, 2006 2:28 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Sara:

Regarding the old posters who have experienced Dinar burnout. In my opinion, buying Dinar in 2004 and witnessing a potential revaluation in 2006, 2007, or 2008 is not really a long time to watch an investment.

Therefore, to experience burnout this early is a commentary to the failure of those posters to look at this type of investment as long term.

I hope those old posters will come back, this site should be teeming with activity.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 2, 2006 3:08 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Marine sergeant accusing congressman of defamation
The Associated Press
08/02/2006

A Marine Corps sergeant under investigation in connection with the deaths of 24 Iraqi civilians in Haditha is accusing Rep. John P. Murtha of defaming him in public comments about the case.

Lawyers for Frank D. Wuterich, 26, argue in a suit to be filed Wednesday in federal court that Murtha falsely accused Wuterich "of cold-blooded murder and war crimes."

The suit maintains that Pentagon officials "who have briefed or leaked information to Mr. Murtha deliberately provided him with inaccurate and false information" and that the congressman subsequently "has made repeated statements .... that are defamatory" to Wuterich and his fellow Marines.

The suit accuses Murtha of spreading "false and malicious lies" about Wuterich and his squad that were "intended to serve his own private purpose and interests" and that Murtha's comments "have been reproduced by countless third parties throughout the world."

Wuterich maintains several civilians were killed when his squad pursued insurgents firing at them from inside a house after a roadside bombing that killed one Marine. He describes a house-to-house hunt that went wrong in the midst of a confusing battlefield, but has denied through his attorneys any vengeful massacre.

No one has been charged in the case.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16996460&BRD=2212&PAG=461&dept_id=465812&rfi=6

-- August 2, 2006 3:47 PM ∞

---

VALERIO wrote:

IT AMAZES ME THAT THE ISLAMIC PEOPLE ARE SO UPSET WITH THE ISRAELIS FOR THE KILLING OF INOCENT WOMEN AND CHILDREN AS A RESULT OF CASUALTIES OF WAR, EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE GIVEN WARNING AHEAD OF TIME TO LEAVE THE AREA, AND EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE IN THE MIDST OF HEZBOLLA FIGHTERS WHO INITIATED THE CONFLICT, YET STILL THEY CRY EVIL. EVERYDAY THE ISLAMIC TERRORISTS BLOW UP INOCENT PEOPLE, MOSTLY CIVILLIANS INCLUDING WOMEN AND CHILDREN, WITHOUT WARNING OR REASON, AND THERE IS NO SUCH OUTRAGE. WHY DO THEY NOT EXPRESS OUTRAGE AT THESE VIOLENT EVIL PEOPLE. EVEN THE WORLD COMMUNITY, AND THE PRESS ARE GUILTY OF THIS.

-- August 2, 2006 6:16 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Valerio....

The best answer I can give to your question is that the Muslims are brainwashed from Birth, by Islam, to hate anything Western. This dulls their senses regarding moral or humanity issues.

Some in the world community, and others in the Liberal press continue with their anti-American and anti-Bush negative positions and don't/can't recognize any other course of action.

Hope this helps a little....

-- August 2, 2006 6:45 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

I think art in all it's form is spiritual, and counter insanity in big ways.

Any artistic creation will pose some spirit, say "I created that, it's not a blob of matter, it is something that is formed, shaped and created after the imagination of a mind"

Older people might be aware to what lenght we as a youth made just to try to dial in to far and away stations that played the music we wanted to hear. I could remenber falling alseep to a dailed in station, barely hearable, and a lot of static. AM worked best at night.

Ordinary close local stations could have perhaps an hour or so on saturdays for this Rock and Roll. Then they went back to Glenn Miller for the rest of the week. I never missed that hour.

Today we're so spoiled with TV and radio, have all the satellite gadgets and hundreds of choices at our finger tip.

Artists can today perform in a variety of media, for the consumer it's an over whelming stream, but it gives us choices like never before.

I'm thinking of what Lance said in an earlier posting. Over there, few have TV and radio.

The easiest way to take attention off they Imans, and the extreemist would be to flood the arab market with cheap radios and TV's, so cheap that the average citicen can afford it.

This is perhaps a point Irael couold have done long ago, set up a lot of radio stations, TV stations, I'm not talking about a state sponsored, CIA runned "Radio Freedom", as in the cold war, few russians dialed in to those stations anyway.

They had enough propaganda from their own leaders, no they dialed into the "cool" stations. Radio Luxemburg, a station in the central Europe, playing pop and rock music from the current charts. Radio Carolina, a pirate radio operating from a rebuilt fishing vessel in the North Sea. Radio Nord, another pirate station operating from the Baltics, all playing the music we wantet to hear. Not what "they" considered we wanted to hear.

I would set up a lot of stations, to the point that it fills the dial, all across Israel, strong enough that it reaches all corners of the Arab/Persian world.

I wouldnt care about politics, just have fun, have hillarious DJ's and good music that appeals to the whole region.

I would set up a similar set up in Iraq, even more crazy DJ's, some people that can poke fun at things in a light and humourus way, the stations should be able to easily cover Iran.

I would by pass the locally owned Iman controlled stations, set up the stations with far more power.

I would hire a proffesional company and do a really thorough and deep survey that will show exactly what type of music, what style and what trends the region will respond to, adjust the radiostations to appeal to what they want to hear, then go out and have a blast.

-- August 2, 2006 11:11 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

"Oil prices rose amongst fear of war and the lingering storm brewing outside our cost"

A war between two non oilproducing nations, and a storm that have not materialized into something yet.

ANY reason to hike the oilprices is evidently in order and the problem is not hiking the price up, I'm sure they even have think tanks coming up with the reason WHY the oil is going up.

"Oilprices went up in anticipation of next years potential violent election in Quatamuburi."

-- August 2, 2006 11:39 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

All,

Came across the below. Facinating article out of Israel on IQD investing, and the government allowing this to happen. Everyone has been asking how much IQD is outside the country, and the last place I would expect would be Israel.

Looking for investment opportunity? Try the Iraqi dinar

Despite Trading with the Enemy Act prohibiting trade in enemy currency, finance minister approves trade in Iraqi dinar for another year. Buying Iraqi dinar at unprecedented lows could prove enormously profitable if and when war-torn nation returns to economic prosperity
Shlomi Shefer

Despite the Trading with the Enemy Act, which forbids trade in enemy currency, Finance Minister Abraham Hirchson renewed authorization to traffic in the Iraqi dinar for another year this week.

The CashFlow Club Israel, which unites entrepreneurs and investors in various financial sectors, said the extension constitutes an investment opportunity with potential for significant profits.

The guiding principle in the move can be traced back to World War II, when the German mark collapsed. The few people who purchased German currency at its low point and held onto it for a few years were rewarded with astronomical profits when the mark regained strength a few years later.

The same went for the Kuwaiti dinar, which slumped during the Iraqi invasion of the country and soared when the economy restabilized.

The forecast that Iraq will someday return to economic prosperity is based on the nation’s tremendous oil reserves.

Bibi okayed trade

After the outbreak of the war in Iraq, the Iraqi dinar plummeted to all time lows. For the sake of comparison, before the war one Iraqi dinar was equal to USD 3. Nowadays, one American dollar is equal to about 1,000 Iraqi dinars. In other words, the value of the dinar plunged over 99 percent. According to historical trends, the purchase of 100,000 dinars for USD 100 could bear significant yields – if and when Iraq stabilizes.

The current situation in Iraq precludes electronic foreign currency trade in dinars, and therefore dinar bank notes must be directly purchased and kept. Since the days of the British Mandate, Israeli law prohibits trading with the enemy and bans, among other things, trade in the currency of enemy countries like Iran and Syria.

Until three years ago, Iraq was also on that list. However, since Saddam Hussein’s regime was deposed and the United States gained control in Iraq, then-Foreign Minister Benjamin Netanyahu decided to okay trade in the Iraqi dinar.

The go-ahead is only temporary and must be considered for re-approval every 21st of July. This week, despite the war in the north, Hirchson decided to extend the authorization for another year. As a result, the CashFlow Club Israel brought hundreds of millions of dinars, in cash, into Israel from Jordan.

(07.27.06, 12:07)

-- August 3, 2006 12:15 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

All again,

Another interesting article concerning our (hopefully) friend Governor Sinan al-Shabibi of the CBI. this guy is getting a lot of news and traction after years of silence. Wonder why?

My idea to curb inflation: RV. I hope it is his too!!!:)

BAGHDAD, July 31 (Reuters) - Iraq's dire security situation is spurring inflation and hobbling growth, the head of the country's central bank said on Monday, warning that rising prices may provoke another hike in official interest rates.
Governor Sinan al-Shabibi also told Reuters in an interview that the restructuring of the country's two main state-owned banks was an urgent priority and had been agreed with the Ministry of Finance. But he declined to be specific on timing.
"The primary objective of a central bank is to preserve price stability and that is why we are concerned and we are taking some monetary policy measures," said Shabibi, whose offices are close to Haifa Street, one of the most dangerous places in Baghdad.
Savage sectarian violence has pushed the country to the brink of civil war and also heavily added to the cost of doing business. The rate of inflation in June was 52.5 percent, year-on-year, and the central bank raised interest rates to 12 percent from 10 percent on July 14.
"(Inflation) is already high ... and of course we have to watch it monthly," he said. "For example, if it is 50 percent now and it becomes 45 percent next month, we keep our policy. But if it is different, we have to change our policy."
The central bank has direct experience of the violence. Staff have been hurt by bombs near the bank and Shabibi is sometimes forced to hold meetings in other locations because the journey to the office, down a narrow street that runs through a bustling market, is deemed too treacherous by some visitors.
So he fully appreciated the fact that interest rates and the other policy tools, like minimum reserve requirements and open market operations to drain bank liquidity, are much less important for combating inflation than curbing the violence plaguing Iraq.
"We would like the government and fiscal authorities to bear their share. They are the most important factor behind inflation. Inflation is a factor of the real sector, not the monetary sector ... Security affects wages and insurance premiums, the smooth delivery of goods ... It is a very important factor," he said.
Poverty and unemployment are blamed for swelling the ranks of insurgents, while corruption and inefficient state-managed companies prevent the benefits of high oil prices from reaching ordinary Iraqis three years after U.S. troops toppled Saddam Hussein.
The war opened Iraq to the outside world, and a flood of imports of consumer goods, but despite billions of dollars in reconstruction aid, the non-oil sector still languishes.
"There is a lot of activity in terms of trade and finance but there is no activity in terms of production and that is not healthy.
"Capacity utilisation in the real sector is still low. What we need ... is the finance to go to increase capacity utilization and have new investment. This is not happening, it is not generating employment. It is not generating growth. Basically (the problem) is security ... people are afraid," Shabibi said.
A healthy banking sector is essential for economic growth but Iraq's big state-owned banks -- Rasheed Bank and Rafidian Bank -- are saddled with heavy debts from the Saddam era and also need to be completely reorganized, putting thousands of jobs at risk.
As a result, reform is a political hot potato but Shabibi said that the new government of national unity was committed.
"This is a very important task and an immediate priority, he said. "There is some cooperation with the Ministry of Finance and we are going to implement that quite soon."

-- August 3, 2006 12:27 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Predictions, assumptions, and ponderings:

1. Why is the news article above, which is actually from an old interview (a week) just now hitting the press? Lebanon overshadowed the news out of the ME. There are actually a couple of others from the CBI, just Google.
2. Why after years of silence is the CBI making noises and granting interviews? I think they are getting ready to do something, I just wish I knew what it is.
3. We are also seeing interviews out of the Finance Ministry floating ideas about the Zero Lop. But why? I think the idea was floated, but was never a viable idea to begin with. Just one of the ideas that came out of meetings and gained more traction then it was worth. Also believe it is as part of Economics now being used as another sword against the insurgents.
4. IMF Article IV is due, and still no news out of them or the Iraqi’s as to what is happening. Nothing on the IMF web site as to what if any Executive Board decisions happened or did not happen yesterday. Did the Iraqi’s ask them to hold off?
5. Prime minister actually saying that Economics are the other half of the fight against the insurgents, and making it part of his policy against them.
6. Investment Law passed!!!!!!!!!!!!!
7. Oil Companies actually starting talks and investment strategies before Hydrocarbon Law is passed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
8. Kurd’s already approved and working the above two issues.
9. Oil flowing out of both ends of Iraq (Basrah, Turkey).
10. 45-52% inflation? Raising interest rates will never solve the problem. Raising the value of the IQD would help (personal view). Make the money worth more and give it more purchasing power and inflation should drop. Read between the lines of the above Reuters Article, and let me know what you think. Take the time to read it a couple of times.
11. We are seeing real interviews and press concerning the Economic situation and finances out of Iraq. It used to be nothing but speculation and silence. Now all of a sudden in the last 45 days there have been numerous “Official” pronouncements and interviews out of the people and departments that matter. This also includes figures of how much hard currency is out there in the open market. This I find very interesting, with a stated 6 Trillion IQD and change currently. I wish that I could find the previous numbers for the IQD in circulation/printed from a couple of years ago because I think that it was much higher, and almost double that. Remember the exchange rate when the new IQD replaced the Saddam dinar. Much more of the Saddam Dinar on the street and exchanged on a one for one basis for the IQD. Swiss Dinar exchanged at 1 to 150 IQD. Why does this matter? If you decrease the quantity of IQD in circulation because it was inflated (quantity wise) after the exchange, you (the CBI) yank it out of circulation as fast as the economy will allow, thus increasing the value and stabilizing its value. Once you have done that, the specter of having too much currency out there disappears.

I just find all the above exciting and indications of there being something in the wind. I just wish I knew what? What ever is going to happen seems to be headed our way “SOON” according to the CBI. But how soon is soon? The Dinar ride from hell continues!!!!!!!!!! Got to love it!!!!!!!!!!!

-- August 3, 2006 1:36 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Roger!
Totally correct in my opinion about the Radio's, TV's,Internets, Audio books, palm pilots, satelite phones, CD's,Tapes,Video's, laptops,....have these items dropped and smuggled in by the millions...
Drop and smuggle in all kinds of makeup,nail polish, jeans,teeshirts,shoes,sandals,piercing equipment,studs,eye rings,tonque rings,lip rings, nipple rings, prince albert rings,on...and on...
Flood the market with viagra,the morning after pill, adult toys of all kinds, blow up dolls both male and female for those who like to swing either way, and the lonely herders who have nothing but a flock of ugly sheep and camels.....I can't believe its butter type vagina's, etc;;

Millions of different type of chocolate candy, gum, mints,toothpaste,toothbrushes,(you know the TOOTHBRUSH was name after southern folk...Why! you ask?....because if it has been named after other parts of the USA it would have been called..."TEETHBRUSH"...)

To really drive the mullahs crazy make sure they get a shipment of Sear and Roebuck Catalogs with the Women Linqerie Section torn out...Also send them sheep shearing magazines without the pictures of sheared sheep.....

Just some thoughts from a befuddled mind at 3:30am

-- August 3, 2006 5:29 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Lance....

Liked your "ponderings"....
I agree with you, it seems like the momentum is picking up regarding using the economic tools they have as a weapon against the bad guys.

-- August 3, 2006 8:31 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

DOES ANYTHING ELSE NEED TO BE SAID????

Yesterday the Iranian President stated, "FOR NOW we need a ceasefire in Lebanon....but the solution to the middle east is for Israel to be TOTALLY DESTROYED."

All in favor of a cease fire...raise your hand!

GETTADONE!!!!ISRAEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- August 3, 2006 9:42 AM ∞

---

Terri wrote:

OK, guys, I read it and re-read it...doesn't tell me a thing...can someone comment:

IMF Executive Board Completes First and Second Reviews Under the Stand-By Arrangement with Iraq
=================

Press Release No. 06/175
August 3, 2006
http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/pr/2006/pr06175.htm

-- August 3, 2006 10:45 AM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

They say they are pleased that the CBI is ready to tighten the monetary and exchange rate policy to prevent high inflation from becoming entrenched.

Maybe it's a stretch to read more into that, but it does seem positive.

-- August 3, 2006 11:06 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Carl;

Totally uncalled for even from a "befuddled mind at 3:30am." Your non-Christianity is showing. You can go ahead and call me straightlaced. Some call me Sister Sara but I sometimes wonder if I wouldn't find it easier to fit in under Islamic restrictions, even with the black shroud they wear, rather than this licentious and lecherous society. At least Islamics are family oriented and care about not corrupting their sons and daughters with the taint of evil. When you say:

"Flood the market with viagra,the morning after pill, adult toys of all kinds, blow up dolls both male and female for those who like to swing either way, and the lonely herders who have nothing but a flock of ugly sheep and camels.....I can't believe its butter type vagina's, etc;;"

That makes me sick to my stomach. Do you really consider immorality/abortion (the morning after pill) and sex toys to be the rights the West is defending? Is the right to sin and then kill the innocent unborn child while yet in the safety of its mother's womb really what the red, white and blue means to you? Is that really what the founding fathers laid down their sacred honor for and fought and died for.. what men gave their lives to defend?

Some people I care for were kidnapped in Iraq this week. I am in prayer for them and pray the Islamics.. or whoever took them, will not harm them. Rather than giving the enemy more reasons to accuse the West of evil and maybe harm people in their self-righteous indignation in retaliation, I wish you would refrain from exhibiting the free exercise of liberty as sinful liberties rather than a sacred trust from God Almighty Himself.

Go ahead, call me self-righteous too. I am not going to lop off your head for your beliefs. But since I believe you to have a measure of decency within you - give a little thought to the lives whose care is in the hands of God and the way the Islamics perceive the West. A little restraint in our society in what we say might go a long way. You never know, a little change can make a difference, you know... "all for the want of a nail."

Sara.

-- August 3, 2006 11:09 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Sara,

Ah, cmon, let the arabs have fun. The reason they are so aggresive is because thats the only way they can let go. Imagine, no beer. No party without a beer. If it doesnt hurt the overall survival of mankind i find no sin.

-- August 3, 2006 11:41 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Terri....

I also had trouble understanding the IMF report. Of course, it's written in typical Government "double speak" which is hard to translate.
The two points I gathered from it were: Security has to improve and they need to continue with reducing their non Paris club debt. They're making progress on both these items but I sure wish they would put Al-Sadr in jail, or kill him, to help with the security situation.

-- August 3, 2006 11:44 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

The old saying "what goes around comes around" is still one of the true laws of human nature. The Liberal press and the Democrats have been willing to do or say anything to degrade our President, our country and our Military for selfish purposes. Thank God, the American public is smart enough to figure them out. I believe they will pay the price in the November elections.

==========================================================
Dems in full retreat

With world attention focused on Israel's war with Hezbollah, leading Democrats have finally settled on a position on Iraq. Surprise, they're for a retreat. They're wrong and they have picked a terrible time to wave the white flag to terrorists.
In a letter to President Bush, Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi and 10 other Dem bigwigs demanded Bush start withdrawing our troops this year and "transition to a more limited mission," whatever that means.

"In the interests of American national security, our troops and our taxpayers, the open-ended commitment in Iraq that you have embraced cannot and should not be sustained. ... We need to take a new direction," the letter said.

Right, new direction: Backward, march.
>
>
>
>
Thankfully, Bush doesn't seem tempted to follow them. Despite enormous pressure from other countries, and some in the White House, he continues to speak forcefully for the most important principle of our time: The need to defeat terrorism. And he has correctly linked America's fight in Iraq with Israel's two-front campaign.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/439904p-370586c.html

-- August 3, 2006 1:12 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

What are the ways the CBI can restrict the number of Iraqi Dinar in circulation?

Monetary policy is not like a company that can buy back their own stock.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 3, 2006 2:09 PM ∞

---

Michael wrote:

Hi everybody,

I've just bought this new rapport about iraqi dinar.Tell me what you think about ?

IRAQI DINAR – THE CATCH

INTRODUCTION

Hi there, first of all, thank you for purchasing this information. It is the result of much research from myself, someone who was also busy buying up my “investment” so much that I failed to do some vital research. What you are about to discover is something that the sellers of Iraqi Dinar do not want you to know – after all they are buying Dinar from the only source, Iraqi Banks, for next to nothing and selling it for £100s under the sales pitch that it will rise to its former value. This is not true – and here’s why……

THE BIGGEST CATCH

Under the ruling of Saddam Hussein, the political and financial world of Iraq was completely fictional. Hussein for example made everyone vote, but the only person they could vote FOR was himself. It was all a farce under the dictator.

Sales for investment of the New Iraqi Dinar are based on the theory that the currency will return to its predecessor’s former value. The official rate of the old Iraqi Dinar - £1.75 GBP/$3.22 USD was set by Hussein himself. This Iraqi Dinar could NOT be freely traded and so this rate was as fictional as Iraq’s democracy – Hussein could have put ANY value he conjured up on the Dinar – if he’d said one Dinar was worth £100 then that’s the value sellers would now be saying it will go back to. It won’t. It CAN’T.

It was never at that value in the first place and certainly is unlikely to ever will be in the future. The old Saddam Dinar is now even a completely different currency in itself and has no value at all yet it is the basis of the comparison that people are believing will make them a fortune.

A million Dinar will almost certainly never be worth £1,750,000 or $3,220,000 USD – far, far from it. Yet that is what we are being told and that is why people, like myself, are wasting their money buying them up.

FURTHERMORE

The IQD is still not freely traded and is not used in any international transactions. NO official bank or foreign exchange outside of the Middle East will exchange the IQD. Even the Central Bank of Iraq’s TOTAL (the amount EVER traded, not just daily!) volume of trading the IQD is LESS THAN £10,000, whereas the Foreign Exchange Market trades $1,900 BILLION every DAY. This means that the IQD’s value is immaterial – it just cannot be traded and this, sadly seems unlikely to change.

The Central Bank of Iraq's stated objective is NOT promote the free trade of Dinar, as is the case in a true free market economy, but rather to keep the value of the Dinar stable. The only way the Bank can ensure the semblance of stability is by tightly controlling the exchange of Dinar on the market, and by ensuring that the currency cannot freely trade on the open market. They evidently fear that open trading of the Dinar would lead to a rout in which the value of the Dinar would sink to practically nothing.
Consider the situation. Why tightly control the trading of the Dinar if it is likely to appreciate in value? If the value of the Dinar were to surge, this could be held out as evidence of a surge of confidence in Iraq's economy. So why not open the Dinar to free trading? Why would this be done unless the Iraqi Central Bank itself feels that the Dinar would decline in value in a free market?

TODAY’S IRAQ
The current situation in Iraq is pretty dire:
Over a decade of international economic sanctions and a devastating war has left the infrastructure in tatters
$125 billion of external debt
Millions of dollars in post-war debt
No stable government
Insurgency steadily on the rise
Oil facilities and pipelines are sabotaged regularly
Many (including the former Prime Minister of Iraq) predict out-and-out civil war
These aren't the kind of conditions typically conducive to the creation of booming economies. More to the point -- a 450,000% increase in the value of the Dinar (as predicted by some of its promoters) seems ridiculous in the face of these challenges – and is NOT likely to occur.

BUT WHAT ABOUT ALL THAT OIL???
A lot of the hype over the Dinar revolves around Iraq’s vast oil reserves and their supposed economic value. The oil market is extremely unpredictable. An economy based on oil alone (oil makes up 95% of Iraq's foreign exchange earnings), will mirror that unpredictability. Let's look at a real-world example: Venezuela.
Oil accounts for 80% of Venezuela's national exports and 50% of its government revenues. The country is one of the world's top five oil producers. In the last four
For years, Venezuela has experienced intense political instability, including an oil strike and an attempted coup d'état. The resulting economic chaos has led to the extreme devaluation of the Venezuelan Bolivar - today, it is worth only about a third of its US Dollar value from January 2000, and only about a quarter of its Euro value from January 2000.
Investing in a country's currency is tantamount to investing in that country's economy as a whole, not in any single commodity. Investing in the Iraq Dinar is not the same as investing in Iraq's oil.

BUT WHAT ABOUT KUWAIT???
Promoters of the Dinar like to compare Iraq now to post-Gulf War Kuwait -- but this is comparing apples to oranges.
Before the Gulf War, Kuwait had a stable government and its foreign investments generated more income for its economy than its oil did. After the war, despite losing a third of its pre-war investment portfolio (over $100 billion USD), Kuwait still had a solvent economy, a stable government, and an intact infrastructure. Of course its currency increased.
In comparison, Iraq entered the war with a $125 billion USD debt, has almost no infrastructure, no stable government, and no other foreign income except its oil -- the vulnerability and unpredictability of which we have already pointed out. The outlook for its economy and the Dinar is grim for the foreseeable future.
In late 2004, the US was successful in convincing some foreign creditors to "forgive" some of Iraq's debt. However, debt forgiveness is seldom a blessing, and generally comes at a very heavy price. Other countries whose foreign debts have been "forgiven" have found it nearly impossible to generate any foreign investment afterwards. Think about it: how would you feel about investing in Iraq again if you lost your entire investment (i.e. you "forgave" it) last time?
IF IT SOUND TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE…………
Ask yourself one question: if the Iraq Dinar is such a hot commodity, why would anyone in the know be willing to sell it to you? If you thought that the IQD was going to multiply in worth by hundreds of thousands of percent, would you sell it? Of course not -- you'd be too busy buying as much of it as you could.
When I was buying it I rationalised it by thinking that they bought it solely to resell, like wholesale and would have their own supplies as an investment as well. No. Many sellers know the truth and are selling as much as possible to make a LOT of profit on others’ ignorance and financial vulnerability. These are seemingly the ONLY people to make vast profits out of the Dinar – as above, everything they say is more likely to be fictional and will most probably NOT happen.

Remember the old saying: if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
Be careful!

SOURCES
Additional information on this issue can be found through the following media links. These links are selected to present an alternative point of view to the "all is going well in Iraq" assertion found in many Dinar scams. Which is what this is probably really no more than. A scam.

General Reference: An Overview of Life in Post-Saddam Iraq (BBC)
General Reference: Iraq Factfile (Telegraph)
May 18, 2004: Dinar Dupe: Currency Con Man Touts Value of Iraqi Money (NBC/KFOR)
Jun 15, 2004: Dinar Falls Victim to Violence (IPS)
Aug 10, 2004: Stupid Currency Tricks: Iraqi Dinar (CNN)
Nov 23, 2004: Iraq's Debt Relief Weighed Down By IMF Burden (GPF)
Jul 10, 2005: Allawi: This is the Start of Civil War (The Times)
Aug 28, 2005: Sunnis Reject Iraq's New Constitution (AP/ABC)
Sep 18, 2005: Relentless Rebel Attacks Test Shiite Endurance (New York Times)
Sep 19, 2005: What has happened to Iraq's missing $1bn? (The Independent)
Sep 23, 2005: Saudi Minister Warns U.S. Iraq May Face Disintegration (New York Times)
Oct 4, 2005: UN condemns Iraq charter change (BBC)
Oct 10, 2005: Sunni-Shiite Religious War in Iraq Feared (AP/Yahoo)

Oct 18, 2005: Iraq vote counts 'point to fraud' (BBC)
Oct 24, 2005: Fate of Iraqi charter in balance (BBC
Nov 1, 2005: Iraq rebuilding 'hurt by attacks' (BBC)
Nov 27, 2005: Abuse worse than under Saddam, says Iraqi leader (Guardian)
Dec 12, 2005: Allawi predicts a 'bloody chain of evil' (Telegraph)
Feb 23, 2006: Destruction of holiest Shia shrine brings Iraq to the brink of civil war (Independent)
Feb 23, 2006: Iraq slips towards civil war after attack on Shia shrine (Guardian)
Mar 2, 2006: Iraq government talks in disarray (BBC)
Mar 8, 2006: Iraq edging towards precipice (BBC)
Mar 8, 2006: US envoy warns of Iraq civil war (BBC)
Mar 14, 2006: Scores of bodies found in Baghdad (BBC)
Mar 17, 2006: Iraq three years on: A bleak tale (BBC)
Mar 19, 2006: Iraq in civil war, says former PM (BBC)
Mar 19, 2006: Iraq Shi'ite pilgrims gather, civil war warning (Reuters)
Mar 20, 2006: "Iraq was awash in cash. We played football with bricks of $100 bills" (Guardian)
Mar 21, 2006: Iraq invasion: For better or worse? (BBC)
Mar 21, 2006: U.S. media wallows in amnesia (Toronto Star)
Mar 21, 2006: U.S. Marines kill 15 Iraqi civilians in their homes (Time Magazine)
Mar 21, 2006: Iraqi police say U.S. troops executed 11, including baby (Knight Ridder)
Mar 21, 2006: US Marines investigated for Iraq war crimes (The Times)
Mar 23, 2006: Abduction: Scourge of Iraqi unrest (BBC)
Mar 27, 2006: Iraq parties demand U.S. cede control (Reuters)
Mar 28, 2006: Schools, Kids Becoming Targets in Iraq (AP)
Mar 28, 2006: Shia fury as Americans are blamed for murders at mosque (Telegraph)
Mar 28, 2006: Angered by Fatal Raid, Shiites Exit Unity Talks (LA Times)
Mar 28, 2006: Furor over deadly raid complicates Iraqi government talks (AFP)
Apr 5, 2006: Democracy In Iraq Not A Priority in U.S. Budge (Washington Post)
Apr 12, 2006: Iraqi death squads "not police" (BBC)
Apr 20, 2006: What makes a civil war? (BBC)
May 1, 2006: A Reconstruction Abyss in Iraq (CFR)

Copyright 2006
Want to REALLY become rich?? CLICK HERE!!!!!!!!!! ;-)

-- August 3, 2006 3:01 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Michael.. go to the top of this page and begin reading with the first link. When you catch up to this post again after reading all our discussion on the Dinar you might have a clue. Remember, this guy made his money off telling you his song and dance... "motive" as Carl is always saying. "The love of money is the root of all evil" says I.

Sara.

-- August 3, 2006 4:11 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Oh, and Michael.. note the last sentence:

Want to REALLY become rich?? CLICK HERE!!!!!!!!!! ;-)

What is this guy selling, what is his cut.. and how gullible are you to take some guys word as gospel truth simply because he says it, anyway? Do your own research into the Dinar if you want to know about it.. instead of buying it off someone who makes a tidy profit from telling you his own personal opinion. Everyone on this board has one.. want to pay us, too? What makes him an expert? Use your own grey matter instead of paying someone else to think for you. I suggest that if you have brains, you really should use them.

Sara.

-- August 3, 2006 4:22 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

I am curious how good a salesman this guy is in your opinion, Michael. Did you buy his "BIG OPPORTUNITY" with the CLICK HERE!!! icon?

If you really wish to think for yourself, you have to do some mental work. You have to learn both sides, not only one. How much do you know of the point of view of those this person deprecates? Have you listened to the reasoning which goes into their holding their position? Start with this guy's positions and then try to see what people say AGAINST that, for starters. I don't have the time to repeat the discussions of all the forums or even the T and B board's for you.. do a bit of reading - it will make you think and broaden your horizons - you might even disagree with your guru (*shocking*) when you are done. But that is ok, we are free people and can actually think outside of the spoonfed dogma of the MSM.. which is likely where this person found all the articles he/she referred to for the paper you quoted.

Sara.

-- August 3, 2006 4:43 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Michael;

MOTIVES.. note the article you bought says, "When I was buying it I..." speaking of buying the Dinar. This is one of those disillusioned people who suffered from Dinar Burnout I referred to recently. Only they found a way to make a profit off their discontent by marketing it to you. Now they can bash not only the rumor posters but the entire investment... and make a profit! Talk about fitting the classic symptoms of:

Burnout symptoms of emotional nature include, but are not limited to, prolonged periods of

apathy
frustration
depression
anger
negative or cynical attitude
being unexcited about life
inclinations to high risk behaviors
high emotional volatility
high irritability

http://www.time-management-guide.com/burnout-symptoms.html

http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#122678

-- August 3, 2006 4:54 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

This article on KUNA.. mentions the FI LAW was passed?? "Since Iraq's new investment law was ratified, the forum was expected to witness wide participation by Iraqi state bodies and private firms."

http://www.kuna.net.kw/Home/Story.aspx?Language=en&DSNO=893074

-- August 3, 2006 6:35 PM ∞

---

Amy wrote:

Michael:
I too have read your report, but I didn't pay for it. I did the research myself. Looks like whom ever you bought that report from is experienced in "copy and paste." All that information (word for word) is available for free, or a little work from yourself. Now, do I believe in the future of the dinar. I have a little. I bought just what I could afford to lose just in case it doesn't work out. But, I did go into this realizing it could be years before I see anything. Do I get excited when I hear of a signing ceremony or anything else that makes me believe it might be coming soon, of course. But, I don't get so excited that I'm counting on money that I don't yet have. My advice to you or anyone else is that if you have the "spare" money and the "patience" go for it. I may or may not become rich, but the ride has been great.

Amy

-- August 3, 2006 6:45 PM ∞

---

Michael wrote:

Thank you Sara for your answer.
I agree with you.

-- August 3, 2006 7:13 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

You are very welcome, Michael. :)

Okie;

That article you posted was AWESOME.. but I liked this part of it best.

Quote:

Dems in full retreat

Right, new direction: Backward, march. They have, in Margaret Thatcher's famous phrase, gone wobbly. While there's never a good time for weak knees, now is about the worst.

The overarching truth is that Islamic terrorists have started a world war - World War III - against America and our allies. Our errors may help the fanatics with their recruiting, but our policies are not the root cause of terrorism.

Bush knows that. Democrats have just proven they don't.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/439904p-370586c.html

-- August 3, 2006 8:23 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

I saw the military generals and Secretary Rumsfeld before the Senate panel stating, Iraq could be on the brink of civil war.

Regardless of the violence or even its escalation, I think the administration quelled any discussion about an immediate or staggered withdrawal of the U.S. military.

Any other thoughts or opinions? As an investor, I still think the violence must decrease significantly before any revaluation of the currency can occur.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 3, 2006 11:36 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Here is a rumor on the internet regarding the New Iraqi Dinar. "It has been mentioned in certain circles that once Iraq has finally rid itself of the US presence, It will cease to use the current Provisional Currency that has been sold in bulk all over the world because of the "get rich quick" frenzy and develop its own currency, therefore rendering all Provisional Dinars worthless. That is only opinion on one possible scenario".

This person does not mention the circles where this has been discussed. In my opinion, there are to many NID in circulation to make another switch viable. Your hougts are welcome.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 3, 2006 11:50 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Rob N,

Easy to control the flow of dinars on the street for the CBI. As they take it in, they just put in the vault and hold it. Same thing the Federal Reserve Banks back home do. Or they just limit the amount sold on the daily auction to local banks. The portion sold overseas is just electronic figures and the money is seldom physically moved. It is just placed into special holding accounts for whoever purchased. Much like the old Gold Standard. No one actually took the gold out of Ft. Knox. Remember that printed money is only an IOU against the Government, and in reality has NO value. It is only worth what the Government or the International Markets say it is worth. We are just waiting for those institutions to decide what the IQD is actually worth. I believe that it is artificially low and undervalued currently.

Michael,

I have some Dinar to sell, only $500.00 for a million. Only problem is that Saddam is on the front. Just kidding. Look at the top of this Blog and you will often see the ad: "Warning don't buy dinars." same sales pitch just a different vendor or maybe even the same one. I laugh every time I log on and see that. Or I have some former Swamp Land in Southern Iraq you can buy. Education in Dinars is the first step to insanity (also thoroughly discussed here).

To help all, I have come up with the “28 Golden Rules” for investing in the Dinar and the lifestyle it “Will” generate:

1. Loath yourself. You have embarked on a quest from hell.
2. Give up your job. You have no time for those petty things that might distract you from the incredible wealth that will soon be yours.
3. Hide it from your neighbors and friends for 2 reasons. You want to be rich and have better toys then them, and you don’t want them to know what a nut case you are.
4. Don’t tell ANYONE in your family. They have the ability to have you committed.
5. Don’t feed your family. Use the money to by more Dinar. Do feed your Dog, as it can be used to keep the family at bay.
6. Get on a Blog like this one and state your opinions and others as FACT, especially if you make up dates as to when the RV will happen. Not to mention that the RV will be over a dollar, and your inside sources (always anonymous) have leaked the news to you alone, because you are such a wonderful person.
7. Don’t take a shower or bathe for months at a time. Make sure you wear a Hair Shirt, and whip yourself at least twice a day. The not taking a shower also helps in keeping your family away.
8. If for some reason you have to leave your computer alone for even a second, insure that you delete all Cookies and History, so someone else can’t tell where you have been.
9. Don’t sleep. You never know when someone else will start a rumor without you.
10. Do read Freud. This way you will know why you are being committed if you let your guard down.
11. Tell Sara that you worship the Devil, and invite her to your next Coven Meeting. This always insures a positive response!!!!!
12. Ignore all mention of Dinar Burnout. It will never happen to you!!!!!!
13. Locate “Free” Mental Health Care in your area. The best offer house calls.
14. Sell your home, car, wife, husband, significant other, children, and boat to buy more Dinar. You will soon rich and can always get new ones. Offer all on EBay, and watch the number fly. P.S.: Dinars bought with PayPal are just as good as the ones you got with the overdrawn Checking Account. P.S.: DO NOT sell your computer, laptops with WI-FI required for free Hot Spots as you may not have a house anymore.
15. If you don’t or can’t sell your home, consider 2nd, 3rd, and 4th mortgages. You know why.
16. No need to pay those pesky income tax bills. Soon all your money will be Off-Shore anyway.
17. Develop Excel Spread Sheets showing your wealth at a glance depending on the amount of the RV. Recommend that you start no lower then a dollar, as it will never be below that. Insure that you Password Protect the Workbook.
18. Take Sunday mornings off. Collection plates are a good source of income. Hit multiple services if possible. Some even offer free Soup Kitchens, so you don’t have to worry about buying groceries.
19. Work on makeup, wigs, clothes to help you look over 65. Meals-On-Wheels is almost everywhere, and they deliver to your house if you haven’t sold it, so you will never have to leave the computer.
20. Think about the advantages of making your bathroom into your Home Office. Very convenient and you don’t have to worry about taking those potty breaks away from the computer. You also save money, as you don’t need a chair anymore. Clothing optional except for Sunday mornings
21. Ignore all negative comments about the Dinar. After all, this has now become a lifestyle.
22. Develop a Secret Handshake for Dinar Investors only. Not really needed, as all are easily identifiable by the dark circles under their eyes, trembling hands, empty wallet, and Hair Shirt. But what fun to be part of a Secret Society.
23. Make rude and hateful comments about truckers (Roger), police officers (Carl), others who find information before you (Outlaw), god and religion (Sara), evil contractors better known as War Profiteers (Me), and anybody else with a different opinion then yours. As soon as you have driven them all away, the Blog will belong to you, and there will be no dissention.
24. Believe in the rumors that you start, as self deception is the road to wealth.
25. Start ordering items that you will need when the dinar hits; yacht, condo in Aspen, Rolls Royce or Bentley, servants, dancing girls or Chippendales. After all, the rumor you started 2 days ago says that it will hit in 3 days at $3.00 per Dinar.
26. Don’t keep loaded weapons in your house for multiple reasons: #27 below and suicide.
27. Keep your dinar in the sock drawer. No one would ever think to look there. Especially me! By the way, what is your address, I would like to come visit?
28. Deny, Deny, Deny that you ever heard of Dinars.

Now that you have the rules, it is all down hill from here on. You will soon be incredibly wealthy, and Donald Trump will be your new best friend and neighbor. Thank you in advance for congratulating me on providing this thoughtful insight. OOP’s almost forgot one of the most important things from the list.

29. If you can’t sell your family off. At least put them to work supporting you for the investment. After all you are too busy working the issue.

Got to go, the lice in my hair shirt are starting to rebel!!!!

Good luck with your new lifestyle.

Lance (AKA War Profiteer)

-- August 4, 2006 2:22 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Its been twenty minutes Im still laughing

-- August 4, 2006 2:45 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

I say it again Lance, you've gooooota write a book.

-- August 4, 2006 2:51 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Here is a rumor on the internet regarding the New Iraqi Dinar. "It has been mentioned in certain circles that once Iraq has finally rid itself of the US presence, It will cease to use the current Provisional Currency that has been sold in bulk all over the world because of the "get rich quick" frenzy and develop its own currency, therefore rendering all Provisional Dinars worthless. That is only opinion on one possible scenario".
This person does not mention the circles where this has been discussed. In my opinion, there are too many NID in circulation to make another switch viable. Your thoughts are welcome.
Thanks,
Rob N.

Rob; Old rumor with a new twist. Of course the twist is someone trying to make money off this rumor. Several reasons why this is a non-starter:

1. By International Law (IMF and World Bank) the Iraqi Government must allow a minimum 90 day exchange period for any new currency.
2. The Bremmer Dinar is now the Iraqi Dinar and is a solid currency on the streets. To the Iraqi’s it is their Dinar and not anyone else’s.
3. Very hard to counterfeit.
4. Would cost over $200 million to reissue at a minimum.
5. The U.S. is not going away. Happen to be here in Iraq, and watching us build for the long term.
6. Would collapse their already fragile economy, or at least remove what economic improvements which are already in place.

Now the twist. Re-start this old rumor and scare investors into selling back the Dinars that they bought, at a vastly discounted rate. Actually saw an advertisement on one of the Dinar Web Sites offering to exchange those “Soon To Be Worthless” dinars back “Out of the kindness of their hearts” for $300.00 per million IQD. Funny thing is on the next page you could buy IQD for $700.00+ per million. Scare tactic for the uncertain investor, not to mention additional profits for the vendor.

-- August 4, 2006 2:57 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

It's possible to get obsessed in something you like, create, participate in, or will benefit you in one way or the other.

If you have hidden motive like profit, or it will benefit you in some way, I can fully understand why someone will be against something, someone else find positive.

I have however never figured out how someone can be obsessed in being AGAINST something.

I have seen some people being so obsessed against some single issue, that they are a lonely person standing on a street corner with a sign.

When you have five hours to spare, approach one of those persons and ask them what they are against, show a little bit of interest, ask them one or two questions but be prepared to have a flood gate opened up with a complete uncovering of the "truth". Nevermind that nothing makes sense. Any logic question is completely covered with explanations of conspiracy and ill will by other people. It's weird, when they tell all that garble, their eyes shine proudly, like it was Gods will that put this person on this earth, to be THE one that DISCOVERED all this .

Here and there, I see someone that have gone far beyond something that can be called constructive critic, and is doing a cruisade against the "Dinar Scam".

To me it looks like the sandbox logic of, you have an ice cream, I dont, therefore, you can't have your ice cream.

If you have an ice cream (or Dinar) it's like they get to a point of terror, it just can't happen.

-- August 4, 2006 3:49 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Roger,

Since I am obsessed with dinar, can I have yours? :) I will be happy to explain why in great detail!!!!!!!!

Damn, where did I put my sign "The sky is falling. The sky is falling".

-- August 4, 2006 6:29 AM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Lol Lance. What's scary is that some of those things on your list I've already adhered to! The excel spreadsheet for example. Don't think I'll ever get the devil worshipping part down though...

Ok, so the real reason for my post...let's say for some crazy reason Iraq did decide to disband the current currency and create their own. By law, as I understood it, they must give 90 days for everyone to exchange their dinar for the new currency. Assuming that they do not revalue or zero-lop at the same time, then what would be the difference between me owning the old currency and the new stuff? Or do you think that they would in turn, revalue the dinar at trade in? AKA, 1,000 old dinar now equals 1 new currency unit...thus sending me into a depressionary state, crying myself to sleep with new worthless dinar clutched in my hands. Phwew! That was a horrible nightmare...

Anyways this is pure speculation, what do you guys think?

-- August 4, 2006 8:25 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Tyler,

You would lose the exchange rate charged by the dealers. Other then that you would pretty much have the same amount of dollars invested in dinar. Don't cry too much, it would only be the loss of zeros and the cost of exchanging them. Fear not there are sites that will be offering this service at really high prices. Welcome to arbitrage!!!

-- August 4, 2006 9:09 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

The gentleman I purchased the additional dinar from emailed me the following; "With the Dinar so close to going on the market(it seems like it may be the 14th or 15th of Aug.)I may only be able to get 1 more order into the Middle East. If you have anyone else there that wants Dinar,I can put an order in Mon. or Tues.I would require a bank wire to my bank(Commerce)and would have my supplier directly ship to them(Fed Ex). He and I have worked out an arrangement to do this to save time. I will call you."

More pumping and dumping?

Lance:

Thank you for sharing your perspective it is appreciated.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 4, 2006 10:49 AM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

This is a synopsis of the conference call from Dr. Qais Qaddouri last night from Aman, Jordan.

You may treat this information as rumors or fact or somewhere in between if you wish. I am only listing the highlites as passing along information I received from the call. There were several hundred people listening on the call as well, quite likely some of them are on this post.

Dr. Quaddour's words:

. There will never be a Zero Loop - ever. It was announced by the Minister of Finance - who is going to be replaced. It was a stupid idea and would be the same as stealing. He is not a smart man. Previously, he was the Minster of the Interior and had problems he created with the CBI.

. The IMF, World Bank and WTO have requested many things and not all of the items have been accomplished yet, but they will be by the end of August.

. The reval or "peg" will happen this month, before the 30th of August.

. The CBI is paying 12% interest on their accounts in order to keep as much DINAR in their bank as possible. This is a Government Bank as opposed to our country where banks are part of free enterprise.

. How much will the reval be? He does not know, but says it will be a big difference in price. (personal comment - even at .05c US, that is a big difference to them.

. The Minister of Finance, Trade and Health are going to be replaced. The Minister of Finance should have a PHD at least. He has not experience.

. It is good that Israel can now purchase Dinar. Quite unheard of previously for Isreal to purchase currency of an ARAB nation, but Iraq is working on Democracy. He said that it is important as the Israel people are smart and know how to make money.

. The lower demoninations of Dinar have been printed by not distributed. Eventually they will buy back the larger 25,000 Dinar and there will just be the 1,2,5,10 and 100 Dinar in circulation. It is very difficult to carry a large amount of currency now with the valuation as it is.

. Iraq has always been a cash economy, no credit. He was in the U.S. recently and saw that the U.S. people use credit cards all the time. He said that Iraq will have credit cards eventually.

. al Maliki will have full police coverage for the country by the end of the year and be in control. He said Maliki is a very smart man, not a radical.

. Very shortly it will be 1 Dinar equal to $1 u.s. dollar. (comment here - the Dr. has previously used the terms "soon" and "shortly" quite often in previous calls, but he was quite positive about reval by Aug. 30).

. The Trade Bank of Baghdad and Warka are buying as much Dinar as possible for their vaults which indicates something is going to happen.

So, those are my notes from the call last night.

-- August 4, 2006 11:07 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Taxmama.....

Thanks for posting the info. from Dr. Qais. Hope it all comes true...I'm READY!!!

-- August 4, 2006 11:39 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Taxmama, well, it's good news, or good indications better say.

I do believe Quais is right on one point, the current finance minister doesnt seem to bright.

The figure mentioned 0.05 seems real to me, the assesment of one Dinar to one Dollar very shortly, I'm very sceptical to, if that happens, that is more likely a very long term projection.

Depending what perception one have of time.

The Dinosaurs died out in earths historical time very recently, still, I cant remember seing one.

I do believe though, from all indicators, that the RV is around the corner, it's buzzing.

If it is true that 1, 5, 10 and 100 Dinars are printed but not distributed yet, and an RV is to take place, it shows that they are serious about fixing things. I just had a thought that it might be a bit presumtious to print bills in a denomination that might never be practical, unless they really have it in their mind that the Dinar will equal or surpass the Dollar.

To that point from where they stand now will be a challenge, given the current value of the Dinar, wages and pricing, and inflation battle.

I am getting very excited though, I have been in this game for a very short time, and the waiting is the hard part.( DAAAAD ARE WE THERE YET?), I can imagine many of you that have been in this for years.

Because of this I must admit I'm slipping more and more into Lance scenario of a true Dinaroholic.

Oh by the way, Lance, no you cant have mine, dont jump on the table, sit, you have your bowl in your corner.

-- August 4, 2006 11:56 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

It seems Taxmama's information is defintely plausible. Yet, I remain curious of how an RV can be proposed in such upheaval. Also, is RV the real value of dinar? Or, is real monetary value of the dinar determined once it is openly traded on the currency exchange?

If the currency is revalued at $0.05, my intentions are to hold mine a little longer.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 4, 2006 12:06 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Another questions, how soon after RV will American Banks be exchanging Dinars for Dollars? Or, will exchange rates not be set until the Dinar is traded on the currency exchange market?

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 4, 2006 12:45 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Thanks for the summary, Taxmama..
Just to add a bit to it, from "the Dinar dealer associated with Dr. Q" there was a post about the conference posted on the IIF here:

http://www.investorsiraq.com/206753-post24.html

I found it interesting and thought you all may, too. :)

Sara.

-- August 4, 2006 12:52 PM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

Sara - thank you. There was more information in that post than I had previously. The dealer did mention that there would be a posting as such today.

-- August 4, 2006 12:55 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Interesting...so then question time. Lets say that it does RV at .05, and say I need the cash now, and would like to liquidate half my stash (yielding about $40,000). How exactly would I go about doing that? Last time I checked, Bank of America isn't exactly exchanging NID's. Would this entail a quick little trip across the big drink?

Regardless, I'm not holding my breath just yet. Seems to me there is still quite a bit to work out. The other thing is, I've been monitoring several media outlets, and not one of them have made any mention at a possible reval. Seems to me something this big is gonna end up splashed across the front page of someones Al-Newspaper.

Hoping and Praying,
Tyler

-- August 4, 2006 2:07 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Rob N......

I may be wrong but I always thought Banks, on a worldwide basis, were constantly updated on the "buy" & "sell" rate posted by the Central Banks of each country.

If this is the case, we would be able to exchange our Dinar at the US Banks when the CBI releases their exchange rate to the Banking systems.

I believe these exchange rates are also picked up by the FOREX dealers.

We could use the input from any Bankers or FOREX dealers on this subject.....any takers?

-- August 4, 2006 2:11 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Lance - Creative jokes. :) I appreciated your articulate discourse on why they are unlikely to reissue the currency. Great points and well reasoned - I saved it to a folder for the NEXT time someone brings it up (as they always do).

Roger - I agree, "If you have hidden motive like profit, or it will benefit you in some way, I can fully understand why someone will be against something someone else finds positive". That appeared to me to be the dynamics in Michael's post from a dealer (in something), too.

Thanks, Rob N for the info from your Dinar dealer. Again, very good input and it is a source worth considering (and we are mature enough to take in and understand the bias).

Rob N said, quote: "As an investor, I still think the violence must decrease significantly before any revaluation of the currency can occur."

It is true that the violence is serious, and even President Bush said it was very bad in Baghdad. However, those who will develop Iraq (the oil companies) - since that is the main sector of the Iraqi economy - have been weighing the risks and benefits and they are still willing to do business there. If they will still move ahead and are undaunted by the current situation, I believe the Iraqis economic future is bright and that they will in time have a viable eonomy. Sure, it will be decreased from what it COULD be if there was no violence, but as Iraq struggles and moves on they are gaining significant victories. I expect that to continue and that they will ultimately prevail. Once the takfiris see the tenacity of the Iraqis and their government which they have elected into power to represent them, and as the Iraqis take over their own security, the takfiris will simply have to acknowledge that they have lost. They cannot prevent Iraq moving forward. (Coincidentally, this reminds me of the verse, "The gates of hell shall not prevail against my Church" by Jesus in Matthew 16).

See Okie's post here:

http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#122704

Which says:

"They (the oil companies) told us that the security situation does not stop them from working here because they work in difficult conditions in other countries," he added.

Since this is the case, I see no bar to the revaluation of the currency in spite of the violence. Indeed, the revaluation will help to defeat the takfiris because it will bring even MORE foreign investors to Iraq - shrewd businessmen who can see the risks and benefits and are willing to take the risks to develop the Iraqi economy. And from this the Iraqi people will benefit. I also think that a lot of the Dinarians will be interested in the ISX and developing the Iraqi businesses - also I would mention the neighboring countries who have supported the Iraqi people, forgiven them their debts and wish them to succeed. The RV will help the Iraqis and their country on their way - it will not be a hinderance to them but a boon to their economic fortunes and a way to help end the fighting by discouraging the enemies of the Iraqi people.

Sara.

-- August 4, 2006 2:17 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Sara....

Thanks for the additional info. on Dr. Q's comments.
I believe things are coming together for an RV or Peg. :)

-- August 4, 2006 2:22 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

The real issue I believe is whether or not Iraq's economy is in a position to facilitate this major change. The violence affects the stability of Iraqs economy, however there are a lot of good things being said as well. Take this article for instance:

====================================================================================================
IMF Executive Board completes first and second reviews under the Stand-By Arrangement with Iraq
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The Executive Board of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) has completed the first and second review of Iraq's performance and a review of financing assurances under the 15-month Stand-By Arrangement. The Arrangement is being treated as precautionary by the Iraqi authorities..."

"...Following the Executive Board's discussion of Iraq Aug. 2, Takatoshi Kato, Deputy Managing Director and Acting Chair, said: "The Iraqi authorities have taken important and decisive measures to bring their economic program back on track, although continued progress in the authorities' reform efforts will remain critically dependent on an improvement in the security situation."
------------------------------
Thursday, August 3rd 2006
http://www.portaliraq.com/news/IMF+Executive+Board+completes+first+and+second+reviews+under+the+Stand-By+Arrangement+with+Iraq__1112166.html
====================================================================================================

So in light of this and posts like Sara's, I agree with that point that the Iraqi economy is on track, even in the face of adversaries, to building a stable economy that includes a realistic and workable vaulation of their currency.

~Tyler

-- August 4, 2006 2:32 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Oops...I guess that was a repost from Terri's post. I shoulda checked a little further back before posting. Different website, same confusing info...sorry! Although in our current topic of discussion it does take on a little brighter tone eh?

-- August 4, 2006 2:40 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Worth repeating that post, though, Tyler as it fits the discussion topic today. :)
This certainly shows Iraq moving forward and its good prospects, too:

===

"Force will be used in fighting terrorists" -- Iraqi PM

BAGHDAD, Aug 3 (KUNA) -- Iraqi Prime Minster Nouri Al-Maliki said while receiving Japanese foreign minister Taro Aso on Thursday that his government would use force against terrorists with backing of foreign states.

He added that bilateral relations between Baghdad and Tokyo must develop, especially in the investments field.

The Japanese foreign minister said that his country will play a major role in the rebuilding process of Iraq, by offering huge grants and loans. He also delivered a formal invitation to Al-Maliki to visit Japan.

http://www.kuna.net.kw/Home/Story.aspx?Language=en&DSNO=893311

-- August 4, 2006 2:54 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

"Japan announces $29m loan"

BAGHDAD, 4 Aug (AP)--Japanese Foreign Minister Taro Aso came to Baghdad on a surprise visit yesterday, bringing with him a 3.5 billion yen ($29 million) loan to jump-start Iraq’s economic development...

Bahrain Tribune
http://www.bahraintribune.com/ArticleDetail.asp?CategoryId=2&ArticleId=116954

------------------------------------------------------------

I guess 'ole Taro Aso isn't wasting any time on empty promises...although I hope that $29mil is not the extent of their generosity. Hopefully other countries will start to follow suit. Good for them though for taking the next step...

-- August 4, 2006 3:15 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Sara:

How about helping me with my math? From the article you posted: "As far as a value, he (Dr. Q)thinks 100:1 to open." At a 100 to 1 a single U.S. Dollar would fetch 250 dinars, correct?

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 4, 2006 4:43 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Sara:

From Apollo's post, there does not seem to be a question regarding the RV. What is in question is how much. I guess we can expect anything from 100:1 ratio all the way to $.67.

Regardless of where it opens the article is clear that 1 for 1 will happen.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 4, 2006 4:49 PM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

Rob N.

A 100;1 position would be 100 Dinars to $1.00 U.S. dollar, or each Dinar would be worth one cent.

-- August 4, 2006 5:00 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Yes, I think the way is clear for a 1:1 to happen, Rob N.

Although I did not hear Dr Q speak myself, another poster at another site gave an insight from listening to it which I thought was pertinent to our theorizing about a 1:1 revaluation so I asked permission to quote it. Here it is:

Dr. Q has said that from the first time he started with the telephone conferences ( RV to open at .01 ). The interviewer asked him if he still felt the same at opening the dinar to .01 and he avoided the question. A lot has changed since he first started with these telephone interviews.

Keonee

===end of quote===

In light of this observation, it may also be true that Dr Q does not discount the possibility.

Sara.

-- August 4, 2006 5:47 PM ∞

---

valerio wrote:

even at 1 cent per dinnar, you can sell 20% of your holdings and more than double your initial investment, and hold the rest for the big pay day. If the big pay day don't come, you still made a great investment.

-- August 4, 2006 7:28 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

We're in better shape in Iraq than most people realize. The Liberal press paints such a gloomy picture it's hard to see what's really going on. This article is more balanced in reporting what is actually happening......

==========================================================
Much anxiety in Iraq, but also some tangible progress

By Safa A. Hussein
Commentary by
Saturday, August 05, 2006

Observers, analysts and politicians differ on the way Iraq is heading. A thorough picture may be obtained by the use of some diverse and broad indicators of social and economic health: statistics on the casualties (among civilian Iraqis and those in uniform), attacks and violent events, refugees, displaced families, the flow of religious pilgrims to Shiite shrines, pupils in Shiite seminaries, the value of the Iraqi dinar, and voters in the referendum on the constitution and in the elections.

These indicators show that there are advancements in some areas, but serious challenges in others. Does this mean that terrorists are winning the war? To answer this question we must examine what the insurgents have achieved with regard to their strategic goals.

Their first goal was to prevent the formation of the Iraqi security forces. To this end, they employed all types of terrorist attacks: suicide bombs, assassinations, and bombings against recruits, members, trainees, recruiting centers, restaurants, etc. Thousands from the security forces were killed, but long queues of young men continue to apply at recruiting centers. Within three years the newly created security forces have exceeded 300,000 people. Over time, it is taking the lead in fighting the insurgents. Documents captured lately reveal that the terrorists have shifted to a less ambitious goal: trying to discredit the security forces and shake the people's trust in them.

The second goal was trying to stop the process of formation of a legal democratic government. The terrorists tried to do this in all phases of the political process: the Iraqi Governing Council (IGC), the municipal elections prior to the formation of the interim government, the general elections prior to the formation of the transitional government, the referendum on the constitution, and lastly the general election to form the constitutional government. To this end they assassinated IGC members, threatened and killed both voters and candidates, and carried out suicide attacks on voting centers. They failed completely, as the number of voters and participants increased in each of the political phases.
>
>

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=74500

-- August 4, 2006 8:30 PM ∞

---

Anonymous wrote:

Sara:
Just trying to get some tensions released...I never saw anyone fighting when ...
..
Well! maybe that is why the hippies in the 60's kept saying "Make Love Not War"

-- August 4, 2006 8:52 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

In simple terms... 100:1 = $10,000/million ID.

Outlaw

-- August 4, 2006 9:28 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Anonymous;

Due to man's freewill, men are each free to make their own choices.. to make love or war.

However, whenever a person's freedom extends to taking the life of another human being - that is a line which really should be drawn.
(What part of "Thou Shalt Not Kill" didn't you understand??)

It is there that a line should be drawn, and it is the same line whether it is drawn in war or in love - whether it is the murder of innocent children in an act of war by the suicide attacker OR the taking of the life of an unintended consequence of love (a baby conceived without forethought). The reference to exporting murder (the abortion pill) was what got to me, not the references to adult sexual behaviors (which only God sees, knows or can judge men upon).

Between murdering innocent children for their parent's mistakes and seeking to justify experimenting on human life for research purposes (stem cell research using embryos), the line between civilized behavior and barbarism is razor thin in our supposedly "advanced" society.

I simply abhor evil in all its forms - and any kind of murdering I find deviant and a violation of God's Law.

Sara.

-- August 4, 2006 10:52 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Hello all,

I have been reading all of your posts and I have to say they all quite informative (and amusing). I have recently bought a few Dinar in hopes that one day it will become the springboard that I use to jump over the growing chasm between the haves and have nots. I'm simply a poor fella looking to feed a few mouths and perhaps even send my children to college one day. My mother also recently had a stroke. Her fate is the fate that most of us have nots will encounter in our old age------> a nursing home. Hopefully if all of this pans out I can have her brought home and provide her with private care here. I have no plans to buy big houses or fancy yachts, just take care of what matters most, family. If I drudge up any info on Dinar happenings in the future (positive or negative) I will drop a line. Till then I will continue to read what you guys have to say. Stay positive. Oh and if it's worth anything, yeah I believe there's a potential future for Lance in writing............

-- August 4, 2006 11:04 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Steve;

Solid goals, good priorities (family).
Good to see in this mixed up world.

Welcome aboard! :)

Sara.

-- August 5, 2006 1:23 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

All info so far about the Dinar is it's RV, however I have not seen anything that says it will betraded freely.

I can prehaps read between the lines, when statements are made, saying: "the OPENING RV will be between......". That will assume it will be traded, but it might as well sit pegged the same way it's doing now, no exchange on the market and fixed in space and time.

An RV could, but doesn't neccessary mean free trade. Any action with the Dinar, could be made within its own time schedule.

Steve,

No, no, no, dont hang outside looking in, like Timothy Leary. We're fighting an acute inbreed on this site. (our children have three arms), drop in often and say what you want, and ask what you want, we are the self designated answer guys. (I give you my secret if you promise to keep it under your hat. Me, I dont have a clue, I just fake it, but no one have noticed it yet. I'm pretty sure they're faking it too, but wont admit it.)

Sara,
A majority of the worlds population believe in reincarnation, you use bodies like you use up cars, once dumped, it's time for a new one. One car cancelled on the assembly line wont be murder. Nothing holy about it, just a wet fart.

-- August 5, 2006 3:00 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Steve,

Welcome to the ride from hell. Actually it's worse, but our children having 3 or more arms helps with chores around the old homestead. Watching the dishes get done is such a joy.(Actually mine are special as they have two heads. I've named them RV & PEG) I have been able to put them in a Side Show to help support my buying Dinars. So again, welcome to the freak show, drop in any time.

Roger,

You still haven't sent me your address, and I am getting tired of carrying around this sign.

Actually the international trading will commence when the World Bank says so. They have to approve the IQD as an exchanagable currency that is either floating (bad idea) or Pegged to a market basket of commodities or other currency (good). This really doesn't affect us as we can exchange it in the good old U.S. of A., thanks to George Bush's approval. Also think that the currency will be traded anyway. How many people have you seen arrested by the World Bank? RV can happen anytime and is not dependent on approval for international trading, but the RV must be approved and accepted by the WB if they expect to get it approved for the ISX. Double edged sword. Or the old chicken and the egg routine.

-- August 5, 2006 3:48 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Anonymous;

Further, the sexual behaviors mentioned by Carl I don't consider very.. godly.

But as Gbush illustrated on AD in a post only yesterday, insanity affects a great portion of the human race concerning sexuality.

http://www.aboutdinar.com/viewtopic.php?p=17676&highlight=#17676

Sara.

-- August 5, 2006 4:55 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Roger;

Very sad that belief in reincarnation is deprecating of human life - as you say - "One car cancelled on the assembly line wont be murder." It won't change the Universal Laws written into mankind's conscience I'm afraid. There may be those who think that life has no aspect of holiness about it - that it is nothing sacred - but I think the final judgement and say about the worth of human life is left to be determined by a Higher Power. A final reckoning is ingrained into MOST of the human race.. we need only wait and see how that comes out. No need to get uptight if you disagree with my assessment, because there is this final say on the outcome of things.. and I do believe you will find it is real and headed up by the same One who gave the world commands on not murdering, stealing, lying, coveting, etc. Life is short.. it won't be long until we see who is right.. the reincarnationists or God and His commands.

Our belief doesn't change the reality of the situation any more than our belief can change the Law of Gravity. Two opposite assertions cannot both be true. One is false. In a short time, we will see the truth for ourselves and no one will appear "self designated answer guys" - whether it be the position of those who believe in a reincarnation that deprecates the value of human life ("Nothing holy about it, just a wet fart." as you said) or those whose reliance is on the revelation from God which ennobles humankind and values as sacred all of human life and requires payment for taking it.

Gen 4:10 And God said, What have You done? the voice of your brother's blood cries to Me from the ground.

Sara.

-- August 5, 2006 5:38 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Luke 23:34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do."

Sara.

-- August 5, 2006 6:23 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

I do actually have one observation about everybodys speculation. I've noticed (just from the current notebook anyway) that when discussing future prospects about the where the Dinar may eventually end up, everyone is referencing one of two values. The first is the values immediately pre-warI (1991). The other is immediately pre-warII (2003). Everyone knows that Saddam set the value of the Dinar arbitrarily and it's purchasing power outside of Iraq was low. I saw that this was leading most folks here to believe that the value of the Dinar will not climb to the 2-3 dollar range but stay in the .30-1 dollar range (best case).

My question is: Why are you looking at ANY of the numbers put up under Saddam? Most if not all were completely arbitrary and not based on international exchanges or national market conditions. The million dollar question (no pun intended) is: What was the value of the Dinar BEFORE Saddam came to power? Looking at that (as well as Iraqs place as the leading agricultural producer for the region at that time) will paint a brighter picture.

Now I might be mistaken but I think the value was over 2 dollars per before Saddam changed the rules. Yeah the landscape is quite different today than it was 25-30 years ago but these are the same well-educated Iraqis we're taking about. Freedom + Education + Vast Natural Resources usually = Economic Powerhouse (given time). Perhaps I'm off base with my assumption but I would like to believe that the most important part of the framework for Iraqs success is already in place (and always has been) ----> its people. Thoughts?

-- August 5, 2006 10:59 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

I don't know if the currency was called Dinar before Saddam, but whatever it was called I believe it was over 2 dollars per..........

-- August 5, 2006 11:06 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I believe Saudi Arabia is tired of the Islamic Militants and clerics pulling their chain and attempting to use oil as a sword against the West.

This is a step in the right direction and takes a positive stand against the idiot clerics.

Saudi is also spending around $50 billion to increase production in their oil patch.

==========================================================

Saudi rules out oil weapon in Middle East crisis

RIYADH: Saudi Arabia, the world's biggest crude exporter, believes oil should not be used as a weapon because it is the economic lifeline of Arab states, its foreign minister said.

Asked whether the oil weapon should be used if the conflict between Israel and Hizbollah escalates, Prince Saud Al Faisal said:

"The two issues should not be mixed because oil is among the economic capabilities that countries... need to meet their obligations towards their citizens.

"If we ignore this reality and start asking that the foundations of our life (be used) and enter into reckless adventures, the first to be hurt will be our citizens and no wise government can accept this," he said.

His comments were carried on the official Saudi Press Agency.

Saudi Arabia and other Organisation of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (Opec) have made clear in the past they do not intend to repeat the 1973 Arab oil embargo.

Saudi Arabia, Opec's largest producer, has repeatedly vowed to remain a trustworthy supplier to world oil markets and pledged to maintain at least 1.5 million barrels a day (bpd) of spare production capacity.

The kingdom has accelerated oilfield expansion plans to hike its production capacity to 12.5m barrels per day (bpd) by 2009 from 11.3m bpd to meet growing world demand.

Global oil prices hit a record-high of $78.40 a barrel last month on fears the Israeli-Lebanese conflict could spread to Middle East oil producers. Tensions in Opec members Iraq, Iran, Nigeria and Venezuela have also contributed to the price rally.


http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/story.asp?Article=151560&Sn=BUSI&IssueID=29137

-- August 5, 2006 11:13 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Steve.....

Good info. about Iraq prior to Saddam. I hope it reminds everyone that Iraq has always been a rich country due to it's people and location.

I learned at an early age that this "land between the rivers" was a cradle of civilization.

Being from farm country, I could see at first glance, the true value of the Euphrates River and all the good bottom land it had created. I started buying Dinars within 24 hours.

-- August 5, 2006 11:38 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Sara,

Based on your deep Christian belief system, (nothing wrong with that) you are taking the moral high ground telling what is depriving of life. I really resent that part of Chrisitanity, or any other religion as well, when one value of life in one camp, will set the tone and action. According to Islam we should be dead. I guess that's also a value of life. According to Hindu or Buddha we reincarnate, the value of life is not in the bodies, it's spiritual. I know Sara, you don't see it that way, and will convince me that morning after pill, is murder, but I would be a bit careful taking the high chair on morality on this. True, two positions can not be true at the same time. It needs an added statement. Two positions can not be true at the same time for one observer. You and me are sitting at a table, looking at a bottle, I see the lable and you see the backside, we see different truths, still, we're looking at the same bottle.

Steve,

Before Saddam was in power the Iraq Dinar was pretty much in range of all the other oil producing countries ,the range 3- 3.50 have been mentioned. However that doesnt mean that it will go to that range, as a vialble economy can be had with smaller denominations, Japan is in the range of 1 dollar 100 yen, and is a very thriving society. there are a lot of other countries where they have a high domination on their currency, and given the situation in Iraq when it was such a long time ago they were in that range, the whole situation is now a uniqly Iraqi situation.

Without doing some zero loop( a now dead idea) and going from a situation where the common man are dealing with thousands of Dinars for small day to day items, to a situation where the Dinar will have a value of 3 Dollars to the Dinar is a stretch when on top of it all they have a pretty severe inflation going. I have a hard time seing that anything will change in the inflation until they get the oilpumps going, the big oilcompanies investing,and some of their security problems taken care of.

Right now, I've ben reading articles about business closing down in Baghdad. Gunmen intimidate shopowners to either pay protection money to the extent thay drive them out of business, or just plain steal from the merchants. Read about a cer dealer that had to pay through his nose to stay alive, and when he was bankrupt, the gunmen stole all his cars, at gunpoint. A man selling three piece suits, doing a remarkable $900 month salary, closed, and peddling ciggs on corners, just to stay alive.

Someone slip a flyer under the door telling you to close or get out or.... I guess you dont have much joy in doing business anylonger.

One of the last things our social and ever considerate Saddam did , was to let out all criminals.

It's a time of lawlessness and mafia more than anything else, and in the aftermath of war, a lot of weapons are floating around, ad to the mix freely roaming criminals, that parasite on the population, heavily armed, in bands, small and vital business will suffer. The criminals walk under any banner, and could be bought for any purpose.

Given where Iraq stand right now, looking at an RV I say cont on a couple of cents, to the Dollar. If it gets more than 10-15 cents, consider you lucky, if it goes to a Dollar, consider yourself even more lucky, but the Dinar is nowhere in par with the value of the Dollar, so if it goes there, it's a very artificial peg, and will have it's own inherent complications.

Lance,

No you can't have my address, I know what you will do, you will wrap that sign of yours and mail it to me, and my PO Box is far too small to accept stuff of that size.

-- August 5, 2006 11:59 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Steve;

In talking about the valuation of the Dinar, you are starting with thinking about what Saddam valued it at. You will note that Roger jumped to the political situation to address what it is worth. However, as I explained in an earlier post to Roger and the board, there is an intrinsic value to the Dinar (by the word of an expert, not just a regular Joe). Then, from that, we go to the political situation and investment climate.. the willingness of the business community to invest and develop Iraq.

Here is the previous post for you to consider:

http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/04/iraqi_dinar_dis_3.html#121427

Let the page fully load, it will move to the exact post only after fully loading that very long page.

Hope that helps. :)

Sara.

PS Roger - hoping for a way out of the losing side in a logical argument by saying that logic may not apply is a tenuous position.

-- August 5, 2006 12:23 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

A digression from the Dinar to consider that Law exists and is unchanging..

Roger;

To elaborate - saying, "True, two positions can not be true at the same time." then ADDING another statement ("It needs an added statement") - in order to try to make that true statement untrue is seeking to evade the logic of the original position. Saying that we see different perspectives on the same truth is trying to rescue the losing position of "two positions cannot be true at the same time" from the dustbin. Just leave it where you found it - in the dustbin - and look at the Truth that is left. BOTH reincarnation (which, as you said, deprecates human life and makes it cheap - "just a wet fart") and the existence of only one life and then eternity for that one soul (which ennobles human life as valued by the ultimate valuation of the One who counts - God) - they both cannot be true because they are opposite positions.

Can there be two opposite realities that are true at the same time?
Current reality is governed by laws which are logical and absolute.
I submit that the afterlife is governed by laws which are real and logical and absolute because the afterlife is a real place and not a figment of our imaginations.
What I am arguing is that this life and the next are both subject to a set of laws which are unchangeable - that there is ultimate and unstoppable truth, and our perspective on the matter is immaterial to the outcome. What we are arguing is which set of laws govern that place, not differing perspectives of the same laws.

I submit the logical provable truth that everything known to us in this current life-realm that is real is governed by laws.
If the afterlife is real, then it is also governed by laws.
The afterlife is governed by laws which you cannot change any more than you can change the laws here.
If we both go to the afterlife and you argue that if a ball is dropped it goes up and I argue it goes down, when we get there and test it only one set of laws will apply.
We will not BOTH be right and the ball go up and down at the same time.
For it to be reality (in the afterlife) it must adhere to the laws of that place.

If you jump in front of a moving train on earth you die. You cannot create your own reality or think the train away.
Even if the person standing on the tracks believed they would not be hit by the train that is immaterial to what will happen to them when the train comes.
That person cannot create their own reality in this real world, and if they believed they could they would be labelled insane.
A person cannot create their own reality concerning the next world either, because real places have real laws that govern them.
We cannot change the laws of a real place, they are fixed.

There cannot be two realities true at the same time in any place that is logical, sane and real.
Arguing that there can be a reality for you and different one for me is to argue against law and reality.
If you were to believe in reincarnation and you died, you believe you would be reincarnated, right?
I don't believe in reincarnation. If I die and I don't believe in reincarnation, will I be reincarnated?
If so, if I get reincarnated against my belief, then I was wrong.
Now say that there is no reincarnation and you and I both die and are both judged by God -
in that case, my belief was correct and that is the reality and you were wrong.
Both cannot be true if the afterlife is a real place. It isn't a question of perspective, but of reality and law.

All reality is governed by law and that place we are discussing is real and therefore governed by real laws, too.
Therefore, whether reincarnation or the survival of the distinct human soul in an afterlife is true is truly like the ball going up or down -
both cannot be true, only one. It isn't a matter of perspective, it is a matter of truth and reality.
Einstein's theory of relativity did not change the reality we see and experience, all it did was enhance our understanding and perspective of it.
The afterlife may alter our perspective on reality, but it will not change, nullify or void reality - and reincarnation OR survival of the soul with judgement by God are completely different realities, not different perspectives of the same thing.. just like the ball going up or down.

Sara.

-- August 5, 2006 3:16 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Sara, Sara, Sara,

Dont open up a can of......ok.

It doesn't matter what I or someone else say, when it comes to your religious belief, it is only a matter of me (or us) to understand the righteous Godly way.

You have spent quite a lot of your time in your life studying your religious belief, as you grow older, everything seems to fit into place, any bits of knowledge is another proof of it, and now it's not a belief system it's you knowledge how you see it.

Sara, have it your way, you're fine. Thats the way you see it.

I really dont need page after page after page , for you telling me your beliefs. I know them, you're fine. Big hug, all the power to you.

In fact believing so strongly in what you're believing, it would be a sin to let the sinner have the last word, so it might be your duty to educate how it is.

After all you know the truth, your truth.

Your truth will dictate you to say a person using a morning after pill will be a murderer.

I say, I dont agree, and here we go.

Sara, this might be a long and endless thing, you wont change, I disagree, now what?

As I can never be right in your eyes, and I can't agree with you on this point, then at least can we agree that any further discussion will be meaningless.

-- August 5, 2006 5:03 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Roger;

Well.. let's move on to Dinar then..

We just agree.. to disagree on those points.

You can't agree on everything in life.. and life isn't over, as you said. In time, our views do change.. both yours, and mine.

For the record, you made me think out of the box on some issues in this discussion, so I learned something from it, too.

Moving on.. I found the doom and gloom stuff on Iraq rather proliferated throughout the net today.. but I managed to glean some positive insights from an article:

====

In Iraq civil war, US can pull out or take sides
By Jim Mannion

US officials insist the violence between Shiites and Sunnis is still confined mainly to Baghdad and is not yet "a classic civil war."

Abizaid said the situation in Baghdad was at a "decisive" juncture but he believed Iraqis would ultimately compromise "because the alternative is so stark."

Senators wanted to know what civil war would mean for the mission of the 133,000 US troops in Iraq. "I'm reluctant to speculate about that," US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said. "It could lead to a discussion that suggests that we presume that's going to happen."

Independent analysts said civil war was not a foregone conclusion and that military action and political moves could yet contain and suppress the violence.

... (some) analysts believe.. that too much is at stake in Iraq for the United States to abandon the fight.

A US pullout would mean skyrocketing oil prices, the creation of a safe haven for extremists and leaving Iran as the dominant power in the region, according to this line of reasoning. Andrew Krepinevich, head of the Centre for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, said the administration would be forced to choose sides in a civil war, and it would not be alone. Arab states dominated by Sunnis, such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt, would likely back the Sunnis, and Iran would step up its support for Shiites, setting the stage for a regional conflict, he said.

http://www.kuwaittimes.net/analysis.asp?dismode=article&artid=1368185119

-- August 5, 2006 5:23 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Value of the Dinar?

Yes there are experts like Hawk, and Dr Q, and based on their expert opinion the value is si or so. Their assessment still varies between a couple of cents to a buck.

There are tables where you add onto it, all kind of variables, and you're suppose to get a value.

You can assign the Dinar a value, then it doesnt matter if it is really worth it or not, thats the cost of a Dinar.

The Iraq Dinar is right now an untested currency, it has emerged from years of chaos, and have been reformed, reprinted and probably a couple of more re-something.

The only value a currency have is the value we say it has. The only way to say what value it will have, is to freely let it show its might on the market.

Before that, all we can do is estimate, with the knowledge of the situation, take experts advice, guess a bit more, hope a little bit more, and ponder on the future.

Still, I have never seen an argument that I will buy, that says, -"Because of that, that, that, and that, it WILL be 47 cents."

I've seen some -"Im an expert it will be ....so and so"

No one can take cyanide against a bet of knowing for sure.

It's a guessing game, I say between 1 and 15 cents, more than that, yipeeee.

Now, as far as I have understod, the up and coming RV might peg it either to the Dollar or a Basket currency, but everything is not worked out yet for a free market trading, that means that the coming RV will still be an artificial peg.

IF...they decide to peg the Dinar to a very high number, it's unlikely, but lets say they peg it to the Dollar, then it's a matter of judgement if you think the Dinar really have that value, and if let lose on the market after a while, it will hold.

If I would think it would not hold a Dollar, but it's pegged there, and the free market trading will comence in a couple of months or weeks, then I would think the Dinar would take a nosedive to it's real value when traded.

I would think of either cash in, when it's a Dollars worth, or take the chance that it will rise again to over a Dollar at a later time, and hold on.

There are so many ways this still can go.

If the Dinar is RV'd to just a couple of cents, ( I think so), I would just simply hold on because then I would estimate that it is close to it's real value and I would not be afraid the day it will hit the open market.

There are so many varables in this, so many uncertainties, so much that have to come together, and still so much not done yet, that next "expert" will probably get a pie in the face.

Naa, just joking, I take his advice, and compare it with high interest to the rest of my knowledge on this, but I dont take any of it as gospel.

It's a wait and se game.

-- August 5, 2006 6:10 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Sara,

I know you are by far the most prolific poster on this forum and have probably better knowledge of its contents right back to its infancy, better than anyone else.

I appreciate all of the news and most of the insight that you bring to this forum.

I have no intention of asking you to censor your opinions or insight, just to keep it on topic for those that want to follow the dinar discussion, not your endless quoting and personal interpretation of the bible, which is largely irrelevant to even the discussion of the cultural and religious differences of Iraq and its neighbouring countries.

Please bear in mind that not everyone has religious beliefs and not everyone wants to hear yours. As an Atheist I take offence at you taking the moral high-ground over anyone who does not strongly follow the Chritian faith, just as you find it offensive to hear of others promoting western immorality, fake vaginas, morning after pills and the like.

You see a termination as moral sin, murder, or the taking of a life, others see things in more subjective, scientific way, that an early-stage embryo (a bundle of cells) has no thought process and is unaware of its existance, therefore it is no more murder than killing an egg or sperm that have not yet joined. The conscious decision of its creators to continue or prevent its life should be the choice of its creators, as without the support, care and love of its parents, no child should be subjected to being born into this world. Its parents created the embryo, not god!

It seems to me that you have your own beliefs so deeply ingrained that you are closed to accepting any faith that does not share its values with that of the bible. I don't know what events in your life led to you be so strongly fixed in your views, but I would hazard to guess that it is a product of social conditioning, from your parents, schooling, education and peergroups. I wonder if you would be as fanatical about the Islamic faith, if you had been raised in an environment where you were brainwashed by Imams.

Religion, or rather people having strong, differences of religious beliefs is the single biggest cause of conflict and killing. Is it moral to promote a religious belief system that ultimately causes conflict and leads to the taking of human life?

Dinars...

Lance, Loved your post “28 Golden Rules” for investing in the Dinar and the lifestyle it “Will” generate:

Still waiting on your book :)

-- August 5, 2006 7:59 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Good points from Roger and Sara.....

Sara,

If you re-read my post carefully the point of it was about NOT cosidering what Saddam did with the Dinar at all. I had asked the question: What was the value of the Dinar relative to the dollar prior to the airing of "Saddams Playhouse". I'm not entirely certain but I do believer it was at or around 2 dollars per unit. Both you and Roger are correct in your consideration of political factors and economic climate as being, in the end perhaps, the bigest determinants of a nations currency value. So lets break down those two (as this commoner sees it, I am by NO means an expert.....):

1)Economic Climate - What is Iraq capable of peddling to the rest of the world? Is it in any more demand than it was pre-Saddam? Yub Yub..... Yeah there is the surrounding issue of infrastructure to allow these sectors to run smoothly and at thier most efficient but didn't the World Bank give over 180 million a few weeks ago to address this very issue and get things kickstarted? Now you have Oil, Natural Gas and the most forgotten one of them all------ Agriculture (yeah rumor has it that 2 somewhat significant waterways run through Iraq). Every single one of them is in GREATER demand now than pre-Saddam.

2)Political Climate - Hodgepodge. Who the hell knows what Al-Malikis primary motivation is? I'm convinced he will play both sides of the field on most issues simply out of necessity right now. After things die down and Iraq has its feet under it? Step up to the craps table and roll some dice...... With the Shite majority now in charge, the Iran factor will always be lurking. It's easy to forget that Saddam actually ruled with a MINORITY (Sunni). Will Al-Maliki and crew become more belligerent towards the west once American boots are off thier soil? Are the I.O.Us that we collected for this rebuilding process (or skeletons in the closet as I would call it from Iraqs perspective) enough to keep Iraq in line for the forseeable future? Again, step up ladies and gentlemen and throw dem bones.......

One thing IS for certain though. If your US government has as many Dinar stashed away as is maintained by some sources, do you not think that they have a vested interest in keeping the value of the Dinar reasonably close to parity with the dollar? Big businesses that have invested millions are supposed to be paid in Dinar in the future (I forget which publication I read that in but it was a legitimate source like WSJ or something like that.....). A big RV or zero lop just doesn't seem to benefit anyone at this point, least of all your government. And rest assured, where the US government has money stashed there is more heading in that direction; bet the farm on it......

So after all of that I have to say: I don't know where the Dinar will end up.... sheesh. Think I'll go kick the dog now and do my nightly 16oz curls. At least beer holds its value....no matter what. Hehe.

-- August 5, 2006 8:13 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Interesting, Nelly B, that you have chosen to be an Atheist. I particularly thought your comment wondering why a person would have faith in God interesting as that is exactly what I wondered about you.. what would make you become an Atheist? Your quote I applied back in wonder to you: "I don't know what events in your life led to you be so strongly fixed in your views, but I would hazard to guess that it is a product of social conditioning, from your parents, schooling, education and peergroups."

You see, faith in God is universal across the spectrum of humanity. Your view is the rarity, if you look at statistics. Atheists make up only 2.5% of the world's beliefs:
http://www.image-upload.net/files/15/worldreligio.gif

Others rank Atheism amongst those calling themselves "not religious" - which is 16% of the world population, statistically:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_religions#All_religions_or_belief_systems_by_number_of_adherents

When you say: "Religion, or rather people having strong, differences of religious beliefs is the single biggest cause of conflict and killing. Is it moral to promote a religious belief system that ultimately causes conflict and leads to the taking of human life?" By saying this you are promoting your non-religious viewpoint that belief in God is overall a negative thing (and something you personally have dispensed with). I understand your belief and respect your choice, but for the 97.5% of the rest of us who don't think God or even very strong belief in Him is the problem creating these conflicts, your anti-religious view appears intolerant. As Roger and I have done, perhaps we should just agree to disagree on this point - as I do not think you will convince me God or belief in Him is the cause of the problems in this world, and you have obviously chosen to believe that God can be dispensed with from life - a position which garners very few adherents when giving an airing amongst the people groups of this world.

Steve;

Your question was a very good one: "If your US government has as many Dinar stashed away as is maintained by some sources, do you not think that they have a vested interest in keeping the value of the Dinar reasonably close to parity with the dollar?"

Yes, I think that would be a motivation. As well, I think that if the US holds many of the Dinar out there, they will act as a stabilizing factor toward the eventual market value of the Dinar. There cannot be a wholesale sell off of the Dinar if the large players do not sell it off cheaply. I agree with your reasoning: "A big RV or zero lop just doesn't seem to benefit anyone at this point, least of all your government. And rest assured, where the US government has money stashed there is more heading in that direction; bet the farm on it......"

Even with our current speculation that this will be good for Iraq and benefit and help the US, as well.. I think Roger and you have it right that this is still a "wait and see" game because the true valuation can only be hypothesized and all the factors going into it are not in the public domain for us to know and properly evaluate. It was because Hawk (not Dr Q, who is only a regular economist) did have access to that classified information that I found his information more expert than any others and valued his expert opinion so highly.

Sara.

-- August 5, 2006 9:52 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Nelly B said:

"Religion, or rather people having strong, differences of religious beliefs is the single biggest cause of conflict and killing."

Nelly B... it isn't God or religious belief in God which is the root of the conflicts and killing among mankind.
The real ROOT is this:

1Ti 6:10 For the LOVE OF MONEY is the root of all evil:

Sara.

-- August 5, 2006 10:50 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Nelly B.

Religion, sanity, insanity, WI-FI, diesel costs, sex toys, throwing-up on the Eiffel Tower, and on and on. Yes, THIS a part of the discussion on this site. If you go back to the very first archived post of this site (Jun 16th – Jun 27th ’04) you will find about half way through the entries is one that mentions; “This is the most posts on any T&B thread ever”. Now it is over two years later and we are still here. I have seen numerous other sites come and go on this subject. They just ran out of rumors or didn’t evolve. T&B on the other hand has become something more then what it started out to be. It has evolved into a place beyond mere Dinar speculation and rumors. It has become a family. And as in all families we discuss everything from the toilet to god. It has also become as Roger put it the other day “we are the self designated answer guys”, and this is oh so true. We have been through so many rumors and outright lies that we can spot them a mile away and get people back on-track. We have become the “Corporate Knowledge” of the Dinar Investor. Of the few sites remaining after two years this is the only free thinking site left, as the others are supported, if not run buy persons that have a vested interest in speculation, as they sell Dinars.

Yes it has been ugly on this site in the past with name calling and generally fowl language. Now we discuss our differences in a calmer tone (most of the time). But why all this extraneous talk of things far outside the Dinar? It’s filler, and it has kept this going for a long time. But it has gone past the just filler stage into a world of other ideas and discussion. There is never enough information on the Dinar, so these discussions keep us coming back for more, and even the abuse.

So please Nelly B., join the family which includes these extraneous items. Your comment; “just to keep it on topic for those that want to follow the dinar discussion,” is not going to happen. No one is forcing you to join the discussion on these items or to read them. They happen to be a part of the whole.

-- August 5, 2006 11:23 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Lance hit it dead on. The broader the content, the more interesting the reading. We all bring our personal views into these forums. A narrowly focused discussion on JUST Dinars is dry after all (its pure speculation); unless of course you add all of the aforementioned things on Lance's list. Then you have sane religous people discussing the insanity of diesel costs and how WI-FI lets you order sex toys as you throw up on the Eiffel Tower...... ummmmm think i'll let this post go for now...........

I do have a question about the ISX and opinions on wether or not it will add to the potential of Dinar investing. Does anyone know if they are going to let foreigners invest? Or are they gonna hold out till after an RV or after the Dinar "goes global..."?

-- August 6, 2006 12:16 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

All my drinking buddies have a severe bowling problem.

Peanuts are neither pee or nuts.

If you walk in a minefield wearing clownshoes, will I increase the risk of setting off a mine by covering a larger shoe area,or will I decrease the risk by having less area pressure?

Eggs, Fans, and compulsion, is there a connection?

Can I make a nuclear plutonium anti virus program, that will scare the other computer trying to attack my computer, making their computer believe my computer is worse than theirs.

From there, lets connect all this to the Iraq Dinars, I'm sure there is a way.

(but if we are trying to connect the dots here, please dont use dotted lines, it will confuse where the original dots are)

The only one that could master all the above would be Lance

Steve,

Whoha, you have a lot of angles and subjects intermingled in one demonic concept. Well said but it's so concentrated it's probably been through your still you have out there in the woods. It covers almost all the subjects we have been covering for some time here, all in one posting.

It would be impossible to give a good reply to the whole enchilada, as I would be here typing to next thursday, and I must get off this page sometime at midnight, because I need to have some conversation with my Russian Mail order bride I ordered, in anticipation of my coming millions.

I give my 2 cents worth on economical and political value.

A currency, as I see it is, the trust in which the people of that country gives the money as a means of exchange.

Next statement may rise some eyebrows.

Currency itself is absolutely worthless.

Currency is only the means, the symbol, of what values there are in the country.

Back to the fish and coconut sample. A fish and a coconut have the same exchange value.

Have a fish (not too stinky) and you can get a coconut, just swap.

Have a fish, you can't keep a fish forever, so now you instead sell the fish for money. You now have the power to get a coconut whenever you want.(Or another fish if you wish)

So between a coconut and a fish we now have money. It doesnt matter if you give ten or one unit of money, as long as you get the same ammount for one coconut as you get for a fish.

The money exist only as a substitute for goods, or services.

Iraq can't have an oil spiggot at the border, and a line of customers with empty cans, waiting for their turn, and over the shoulders of the customers, you have fish, bananas, live chickens and a lot of other goods, ready for payment for the oil.

Thats barter system, and Russia is still trying to get away from that.

So this is the tricky question, how much is the Iraq Dinar worth, with their current production output, compared with the rest of the world?

I dont have a clue.

Ok Steve, that will be a 50 cents charge for that answer, please remit your payment.

No just joking, my guess is somewhere between 1 and 15 cents to the Dollar,but there's a long line of prognosticators on that, read my earlier posting for today.

Nellie,

Sara WILL have the last word, just give her a hug, love her and it'll be all fine.

Sara,

HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUG

-- August 6, 2006 12:37 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Just ran into this during my meandering......

Iraqi Dinar Exchange Direct Now Open
August 05,2006 12:00 AM EST

Iraqi Dinar Exchange Direct is now open to exchange Iraqi Dinar for dollars, posting the current official exchange rate for Iraqi Dinar, and offers news and information about the Iraqi Dinar Exchange updated daily. (FVNEWSWIRE Jul 7, 2006)

Delano, MN (FV Newswire) - Iraqi Dinar Exchange Direct is now open. Iraqi Dinar Exchange Direct is now open to exchange Iraqi Dinar for Dollars. They also post the current Current Official Exchange Rate for Iraqi Dinar there daily. They have news and infomation about the Iraqi Dinar Exchange Rate also updated daily.

Iraqi Dinar Exchange Direct currency service is designed to give any investor in the Iraqi currency a way to collect their profits, if the value of the Iraqi money rises before Iraq opens the Dinar for international exchange. This is a service to Residents of the US to exchange their Dinar for US Dollars. They will also find the most current information on the dinar currency exchange rate and news about the Iraqi Dinar updated daily.

Lately there have been many rumors and speculation about Iraq zero lopping the Dinar and some Dinar currency investors are concerned that Iraq might change the Dinar. Iraqi Dinar Exchange offers a service that will enable Dinar investors to convert their currency to the new version so they are not left holding old Iraq currency. This fits Iraqi Dinar Exchange's mission to help investors in the New Iraqi Dinar realize profits and secure their investment in the face of changes and uncertainty.

###

Company: Iraqi Dinar Exchange Direct
Contact: Matthew Yonan
Phone: 1-800-713-0917
Email: N/A

-- August 6, 2006 12:38 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Carl, where did you go, last I heard, you had a brainfart 3 o clock in the morning. The last tremors have just stopped resonating from that fart, on this site.

-- August 6, 2006 12:42 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,
The Exschange service that company is offering, have been posted on this site previously.

May I friendly suggest that you take some time and go back and read posts, from a couple of pages back.

You will get a very good idea of the current picture that way.

-- August 6, 2006 12:47 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

The Exschange ....if you have a chipped tooth you say so.

-- August 6, 2006 12:49 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Had a hard enough time just reading all of the posts on the current book......... I posted it cause its dated August 5th. Didn't consider that they might change the date on a daily basis. So a domestic exchange like this one wouldn't be a good idea eh?

What about the ISX and its impact on Dinar investment/trade?

-- August 6, 2006 1:25 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Thanks Lance and Steve, I think our board with its broad base works.. and it is nice to be understood, Roger.

HUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG back. :)

As for the ISX, Steve - my friend Chaka (from the IIF) is my guru and expert on it. From what I can see from what he has told me it runs parallel to the Dinar investment and will open to foreigners after the FI laws pass. No one will invest in the ISX (or will be allowed to invest, too, likely) until they have those laws in place. They safeguard the investor and give rules that are needed to help the businessmen develop the Iraqi stock exchange. There is big money to be made there, IMO.

So, again, as far as your question: "Does anyone know if they are going to let foreigners invest?" YES, they will.. but after the FI Laws are in place, not before. So, the ISX awaits the FI Laws to take off.. when will that be? Your guess is as good as mine..

Sara.

-- August 6, 2006 2:01 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Roger you wrote: Answers appended.

All my drinking buddies have a severe bowling problem. Answer: Sounds like a personal problem. Recommendation: Stop bowling but keep drinking.

Peanuts are neither pee or nuts. Answer: in reference to the above (males only) if you drink enough beer at the bar and have your peanuts too, then you will have to pee and this requires you to touch certain portions of your anatomy previously mentioned.

If you walk in a minefield wearing clown shoes, will I increase the risk of setting off a mine by covering a larger shoe area, or will I decrease the risk by having less area pressure? Answer: Depends on the type of landmine employed. For pressure sensitive you must decrease the amount of pressure/force “F”, multiplied by the mass/weight “M”, divided by the square of the area “A”, determine the approximate sensitivity factor of the landmine “X over PI/R Squared”, then design your shoes (non-metallic of course) to reflect the above formula and you will be perfectly safe. But just to be sure, ask for a volunteer to test the above, maybe Carl. If it is a motion detector type I would go back to the bar.

Eggs, Fans, and compulsion, is there a connection? Answer: Compulsion = Dinar Investment, Fan=needed to put the egg through, Egg=needed to put through the fan. Total= Failure to RV=egg on face.

Can I make a nuclear plutonium anti virus program, that will scare the other computer trying to attack my computer, making their computer believe my computer is worse than theirs. Answer: None of your business. Am already working on the Patent.

All other questions will be answered by me upon receipt of a pre-approved check, Credit Card, or PayPal payment.

Lance

-- August 6, 2006 3:37 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Lance;

Thanks for the laugh.. very zany! LOL
(Zany - only meant in a nice way - as 'far out' humor..)

za·ny Pronunciation Key (zAnE)

A comical person given to extravagant or outlandish behavior.
Ludicrously comical; clownish.
Comical because of incongruity or strangeness; bizarre.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/zany

-- August 6, 2006 10:49 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Thanks for the info Sara. If you happen to hear anything in the future about the ISX I could use the info.

Lance,

Force takes into account mass already - by definition Force = mass * acceleration
No need to square the area under pressure- by definition Pressure = Force/area
Circular area- by definition PI * R^2 (^2 is squared on a calculator...)

Now Roger,

Lance makes it seem like it would be very difficult to design your shoe. All I'm saying is that it not really complicated at all. You can actually skip differential calculus and keep it algebraic: simply caluclate the above formulas through many iterations (cal would be easier for this but you can hammer it out algebraically), then take into account any force differentials due to posture, steping onto the landmine off-center, and softness of the land (careful on this one, gravity works FOR you in this one so use the appropriate sign....), and not least of all the spring constants of all of the worlds landmines (they will all give with a different amount of resistance based on this...). Just grab these numbers (easily done) and viola! You got your shoe.

I think Lance just doesn't want any competition for world richest man once his plutonium patent goes through. I would ask you to put me on the mailing list for a copy Lance, extra plutonium please.........

-- August 6, 2006 11:25 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Quote by Roger:

"Next statement may rise some eyebrows.

Currency itself is absolutely worthless."

My eyebrows are still in the same position............

-- August 6, 2006 11:29 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

I think we are still a long way out from cashing our Dinar out for the USD. I agree it is still wait and see. I spoke with the person I bought my additional Dinar from this morning, she told me about the zero lop (which is a dead issue). Now, I question her creditability concerning her time frame of August 14th of 15th for an RV.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 6, 2006 12:11 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Steve.....

Foreigners can currently purchase Iraq stocks that are listed on their ISX. I bought my stocks thru Warka Bank. Warka buys the stock for you and holds them in an escrow account under your name. Warka Bank is also a registered stock broker in Iraq.

After the Foreign Investment law is authorized by the Government of Iraq, then the stocks will be placed in our personal accounts.

Myself and several of my expert friends ( blind leading the blind? ) agreed on ten stocks we would buy. The stock picks included 7 banks, 1 agriculture company and 2 engineering and construction companies. Are these good stock picks? We think so but in any case it beats picking them out of a hat.

-- August 6, 2006 12:14 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Okie,

I read about Warka way back and kinda kicked the idea of tossing money directly into an Iraqi entity to the curb. But as I read more and more, Warka seems to be legit. I might take a dive off the deep end and toss some greenbacks into the ISX. Where would I go to get info on opening an account with Warka?

Rob,

I agree that August 14-15 seems to be a optimistic timeframe but perhaps they will do it soon just in order to keep up appearances if nothing else. Remember, it's all about public perception and hopefully with the additional troops in Baghdad the violence will decrease to a point where the economy can truly move forward. Either way, I'd expect a small RV..... like IRQ1100 to 1USD. The value can always be changed again once the big oilfield contracts come into play (and those will once the security risks become reasonable).

-- August 6, 2006 1:07 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

‘Iran to supply Hezb with SAM missiles’;
6th Aug 2006 : Web Edition No: 12601

BEIRUT (Agencies): The United States and France inched closer to a deal on a UN resolution calling for an end to the fighting. Once they reach agreement, which officials said could happen over the weekend, a Security Council vote could be held within 24 hours. “There are still some issues that we have not resolved, but I think we have come a little bit closer this morning. We will keep working on it,” US Ambassador John Bolton told reporters.

Once a UN resolution is agreed to halt the fighting, a second resolution is envisaged a week or two later setting down conditions for a permanent ceasefire.

Iran will supply Hezbollah with surface-to-air missile systems in the coming months, boosting the guerrillas’ defences against Israeli aircraft, according to a report by specialist magazine Jane’s Defence Weekly on Friday, citing unnamed Western diplomatic sources.
In a meeting, held late last month, the Lebanese Shiite Muslim militia called on Tehran to “accelerate and extend the scope of weapon shipments from Iran to the Islamic resistance, particularly advanced missiles against ground and air targets.”
Hezbollah’s representatives pressed for “an array of more advanced weaponry, including more advanced SAM (surface-to-air missile) systems,” Jane’s said.
“We are told the latest meeting was attended by senior representatives of the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps’ Qods force which is responsible for training and logistic support for Iranian-backed insurgent groups.”
According to Jane’s Defence Weekly, Iranian authorities have supplied the militia with Iranian-made Noor radar-guided anti-ship cruise missiles and Chinese QW-1 (Vanguard) shoulder-launched SAMs.
Russian-made SAMs will reportedly be supplied at a later date.
Hezbollah’s sophisticated anti-tank missiles are perhaps the guerrilla group’s deadliest weapon in Lebanon fighting, with their ability to pierce Israel’s most advanced tanks.
Experts say this is further evidence that Israel is facing a well-equipped army in this war, not a ragtag militia.
Hezbollah has fired Russian-made Metis-M anti-tank missiles and owns European-made Milan missiles, the army confirmed on Friday.
“They (Hezbollah guerrillas) have some of the most advanced anti-tank missiles in the world,” said Yossi Kuperwasser, a senior military intelligence officer who retired earlier this summer.
“This is not a militia, it’s an infantry brigade with all the support units,” Kuperwasser said.

Israel contends that Hezbollah gets almost all of its weaponry from Syria and by extension Iran, including its anti-tank missiles.

http://www.arabtimesonline.com/arabtimes/world/view.asp?msgID=8210

-- August 6, 2006 1:17 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Love you all, what a site.

Steve,

"Currency itself is absolutely worthless"

Yes, it's a piece of paper, nicely printed, with a lot of waterstamps, dead presidents, Godly quotes, magnetic strips, ultraviolet ink, holographic security stuff, and signatures from people in Washington that guarantees that this bill is worth 20 bucks, (You're not insinuating that the people in Washington are lying for us, ...are you?)

That piece of paper is completely worthless, unless you collect goverment documents.

The 20 Dollar bill you are holding in your hand, REPRESENTS a value.

It's a thing in the head.

It have a representative value of 20 bucks because we all say so, because we all agree that it have that value.

The bill itself have zil value.

It's the TRUST you and me put in it that gives it value.

The value of exchange between goods and services will not change.

If a fish and a coconut have the same exchange value, and if by coincident one Dollar have the same value, you can swap any of them in any combination at any time( until the fish starts to stink)

Let's say like in Iraq, war destruction and a morbid sickly abstinense from alcohol, have taken place.

Little or no trust in goverment, lack of stuff, and chaos, and confusion pretty commonplace.

You may need thousands of Dinars for a fish and a coconut.

Again, you can get a fish for a coconut, that stays the same, but the currency inbetween is now a thousand units.

So it doesnt matter if we all agree that it's worth one unit of currency, or one thousand units of currency, the power of that currency will still buy one fish or one coconut.

If the sweat of one days work is rewarded with a note saying one Dollar, you are holding in your hand a completely worthless piece of paper, the power of the paper is in the work you did that day. You only hold a representation of the energy expelled, you can go and release that energy over the counter in the closest beer joint, tossing the note on the desk, saying "Beer".

You will get a lot of releases that way, but from a monetary viewpoint, you gave the bartender some of the energy you earned during your own work hour.

When you write a check, you have been trusted by the bank to write your own currency. It's good only with the issuing bank, but it is nothing else than your own created currency. On occasion you might take a second hand chack, but that is only to what extend you TRUST the issuer.

(I dont know what it is, it's always a women, with a faschination of checkwriting that ends up in front of me in the checkout stand)

Money can be said being the means to delay or store your energy with.

Think of you going to the bar, working with cleaning glasses and tables, for a beer, then you go to the grocery store, stack bottles clean lettuce, and paint their new sign for five hours, so you can have your grocerys, you go to the gas station and sweap the lot, help fix their fridge, and empty their garbage container, so now you can have gas.

Instead, you dig a ditch for eight hours, get 10 bucks an hour, and now you have 80, completely worthless pices of papers, that will REPRESENT the work you did.

Now, like the Energizer Bunny, you're charged up, and can release that energy at your convenience.

That's how your worthless money is doing the trick, and have value.

Steal a bunch of those in a bankrobbery, and you have a sack of papernotes guaranteening an exchange value with whatever you exchange it with.

Banks burn those notes regulary, and they have only burnt paper, they just reprint new ones for the ones burned.

Hope the statment that currency itself is absoutely worthless, make sense now.

-- August 6, 2006 1:26 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

I dont know, I can let the clown/mineshoes go, but I should never have mouthed off on my Plutonium anti virus thing.

-- August 6, 2006 1:33 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

New U.S. soldiers in Iraq take to Baghdad streets
Updated Sun. Aug. 6 2006 7:35 AM ET
Associated Press

BAGHDAD -- U.S. soldiers sent to beef up security in Baghdad were seen for the first time on the streets of the capital Saturday as Iraqi police used loudspeakers to reassure people that the Americans were there to protect them.

With Sunni-Shiite killings on the rise, about 3,700 soldiers of the Army's 172nd Stryker Brigade were brought from northern Iraq to bolster U.S. and Iraqi security forces that have struggled to contain the violence in Baghdad.

U.S. commanders hope the presence of heavily armed American troops will intimidate sectarian death squads believed behind many of the killings and reassure Iraqis -- especially Sunni Arabs -- that they will be protected by Iraq's predominantly Shiite security forces.

Another U.S. command, the 3rd Stryker Brigade of the 2nd Infantry Division, has been sent to Mosul to replace the unit redeployed to Baghdad.

On Thursday, the top U.S. commander in the Middle East, Gen. John Abizaid, told a Senate committee that sectarian tension were "probably as bad as I have seen it" in Baghdad and if not stopped "it is possible that Iraq could move toward civil war."

Echoing the general's assessment, Adnan al-Dulaimi, head of the main Sunni alliance in the Iraqi parliament, warned of the dangers facing the country.

He said sectarianism is being "fed by neighboring countries that do not want stability in Iraq." He did not elaborate, but many Sunnis point to ties between Iraq's Shiite militias and the hard-line Shiite regime in Iran.

Two low-ranking members of Saddam Hussein's former regime were shot dead in separate incidents Saturday, police said.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060806/baghdad_soldiers_060806/20060806?hub=World

-- August 6, 2006 1:35 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

US led forces continue chasing al-Qaida members in Iraq
www.chinaview.cn 2006-08-06 17:11:47

BAGHDAD, Aug. 6 (Xinhua) -- The U.S.-led coalition forces continued chasing suspected al-Qaida members in Iraq, killing 25 suspects and detaining 300 others in July, the U.S. military said on Sunday.

The multinational troops conducted more than 150 raids in the past month against "terrorist" leadership including key figures who were "responsible for killing innocent Iraqis," the military said in a statement.

The most important operations were when the troops captured four leaders of al-Qaida's Omer Brigade, who were responsible for major bombing and sectarian bloodshed, the statement said.

Despite the heavy blow to Omer Brigade, which claimed killing of more than 120 people in July only, the group still jeopardizes civilians, it added.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-08/06/content_4926119.htm

-- August 6, 2006 1:43 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Steve....

Here's a link to various departments in Warka Bank....They have one for ISX.
Good luck and just remember you need a lot of patience when dealing with them.

http://www.warka-bank.com/contact_us.htm

-- August 6, 2006 2:06 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Steve;

Before you take the plunge, please consider both sides of the issue.
Here are some cautious and poignantly sane words on the topic penned by our own Outlaw.. :)

http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/04/iraqi_dinar_dis_3.html#121853

Sara.

-- August 6, 2006 3:51 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Sara,

Thanks for the "reality check" article by Outlaw. It was really insightful. I guess I wasn't exactly clear earlier. I am interested in opening an account with a bank abroad, not necessarily Warka tho. I just wanted to see what the process entailed. My feeling is that I would be giving up far too much info that would be going into a situation that is "tenuous" at best right now. At the end of the day I gotta err on the side of caution.......

I was actually leaning towards doing business with one of the foreign approved banks operating there right now. As far as I know, this is the short list:

* HSBC
* Standard Chartered
* National Bank of Kuwait
* Iranian National Bank
* Commercial Housing Bank
* Bahraini Arab Banking Institute

I remember reading something about the Royal Scottish Bank but maybe that was just Dinar exchanges and not actually operating inside Iraq. Just as a side question, I know initally it was illegal to take Dinars outside of Iraq. Is that still the case? If so what if anything is the US government doing to the people who are peddling them? Just wondering cause I don't need the feds knocking on my door........

-- August 6, 2006 4:34 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Steve;

The "foreign approved" list looked very good to me, too. I do believe that once the FI Laws take effect, we will see a boom in the ISX as the cautious investors who have hung back will feel more secure about taking on the ISX when those liberalizing laws with their safeguards are put in place. For those able to take those risks this will likely be a big jump in the value of their stocks, and attract a lot of foreign capital to the market for development.

If you can invest without putting yourself at risk by having to disclose a lot of information about yourself to dubious persons by using these foreign approved banks, that sounds like a good plan. Do the legwork, it is best to be cautious. :)

Sara.

-- August 6, 2006 5:43 PM ∞

---

VALERIO wrote:

ALL...

Love reading all the post, so many veiws and perspectives make us all more informed.

If we took the average cost in iraqi for neccessary goods, in Iraqi dinars, with our average cost for the same goods here, in US dollars, wouldn't that be the real current value of the dinar against the dollar?
1 gal. of gas= $3.00
1 loaf of bread= $1.50
1 5lb bag sugar=
100 KW electric=
and so on.......
So then....... whatever this value is, what would make then dinar go up in value?
We all know that there are many factors that can effect it, but one that I don't think is talked about enough is.......... we all need to buy more of them and hold them, and keep on buying them now. Spend every dollar you would normally waist anyway, on dinars. No don't sell the house, or go in debt, and keep your savings and retirement accounts, and yeah..... make sure you take the kids to the zoo once in awhile, but do not think you have enough dinars yet.

What do you think?

-- August 6, 2006 5:45 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Steve;

As for the Dinar being LEGAL or not,

Quote:

"Presidential Order 13303: Allows US Citizens to invest in the New Iraq . Under this Order and the Coalition Provisional Government Order 39, a US citizen has the same rights to investments as an Iraqi citizen."

http://www.dinartrade.com/presorder

It is perfectly legal to own Dinar.

As for your asking if it is illegal to take Dinars outside of Iraq, I am certain that it is not illegal for them to be sold out of the country (in a general way) due to the CBI selling Dinar to foreign entities daily. However, there COULD be restrictions on individuals removing large amounts of Dinar from the country to counteract terrorists trafficing in Dinar or using them for terrorist purposes. I know that restrictions have been placed upon individuals taking Dinar out of the country of Iraq but it is a situation where the rules about Dinar leaving the country changes often. I would think that you would have to get a copy of the current regulations if you were making a personal trip to take Dinars out of the country. However, I conjecture that if you are moving Dinars out of the country of Iraq through a banking entity (such as the one listed from Kuwait), the banking agreements between the countries of Iraq and Kuwait would cover the legality of the movement of funds.

Sara.

-- August 6, 2006 6:08 PM ∞

---

Techy wrote:

Steve,

I like you have been considering opening up a bank account in Iraq, so when the FI laws are passed i`ll be able to take the plunge and invest in the ISX. Although I am very dubios with the way the banking systems operate over there. Personally i would choose Dar Es Sallaam Investment Bank as it is affilliated with HSBC. One draw back, you need a minimum deposit of 100,000 USD. Thats a huge amount of dosh. Here`s the link for you to look at, and keep up the leg work.
http://www.desiraq.com/contacts.html

Techy.

-- August 6, 2006 6:51 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

There are some concern from Outlaw and Sara regarding opening up accounts in Iraq.

I did relate on a couple of pages back,to a story on one of my friends, that opened up a business bank account in Russia just at the time of the Soviets fall.

For the new ones on this site, I can do a retake on that story because it do relate to foreign banks in an unstable country.

My friend that had been an entrepreneur all his life, know all the inns and outs of dealing and wheeling, saw the opportunity to go into Russia while the business was in it's virgin state. He intended to do some groundfloor work and be way ahead of the game.

What he did not count on was that there was very few if any existing banklaws, and business rules in general in Russia at the time.

This is a situation that have similarities with Iraq.

He invested both time and energy, setting up all his accounts, went to Moscow, and set up office, hired people, got contacts and had a whole set up completely done, when one day, there was a "closed" sign hanging on the door in the bank he was using.

The bank was basically a scam, all looked very legitimate, they even had adds out luring Russian working Joes to set up their checking and savings account with the bank.

The money just dissapeared, a crowd of suckers on the street couldnt do anything, the poice had to disperse the angry crowd, but there was actually no laws at the time of the conduct of the bank, so they just took the money and that was it.

My friend lost all. Gone.

He had to fire the people he had hired, and end his operation in Russia.

Things have changed in Russia since that time, but still it's hard to do business there, the old socialist aparatnic is slow to dismantle.

This lesson can ofcourse not be directly translated to Iraq, there are a lot of differences, but there are enough similarities there, that this story needs to be mentioned.

-- August 6, 2006 7:28 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

I read a post stating a modest RV at 1100 Dinar to one dollar. Does this not contradict the quote Sara shared from Appollo and Dr. Q?
Other thoughts?

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 6, 2006 8:14 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

yes

-- August 6, 2006 8:20 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

This is another good example of why we need a better source of information other than the Liberal press that dwells on doom and gloom....

===================================================================

— Many in America believe that democracy will not work in Iraq because they have no history of it, no culture to sustain it, and no tradition of self-government. However, before the Soviets replaced it with a leftist dictatorship in 1958, Iraq did have a brief but significant democratic government. Iraq came into being through a popular referendum in 1921. They set up a government modeled after the United Kingdom with a bicameral parliament, several political parties and periodic elections. They also enjoyed a free press. When democracy was squelched in Iraq, almost a quarter of its population went into exile. When the nation became a free society again, many of the exiles and their children came back home.

— Only their taste for freedom can explain why 70 percent of the eligible voters cast their ballots in a series of municipal elections and two general elections. The overall result has been the appearance of 60 political parties and organizations, the only free-trade unions in the Arab world, a new constitution, and the establishment of a broad-based government of national unity consisting of a representative parliament, a prime minister, and a presidential council.

— In spite of the bombings, kidnappings, and sectarian killings, almost 9 million Iraqi children are in school.

— By January of 2006 over 600 state owned hospitals and clinics were in operation, along with dozens of private clinics.

— The insurgents have created much death and destruction but they are being defeated by the U.S. led coalition and the Iraqi military and police force.

Amir Taheri ends his essay with this question: “Is Iraq a quagmire, a disaster, a failure? Certainly not; none of the above. Of all the adjectives used by skeptics and critics to describe today’s Iraq, the only one that has a ring of truth is messy. Yes, the situation in Iraq today is messy. Births always are. Since when is that a reason to declare a baby unworthy of life?” Let’s hope and pray he is right.

http://www.picayuneitem.com/features/local_story_217203555.html?keyword=topstory

-- August 6, 2006 8:46 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

No civil war in Iraq: Rice
From correspondents in Washington
August 07, 2006 09:45am

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has rejected suggestions a civil war is raging in Iraq.

She argued the conflict in the US-occupied country has no separatist dimension and no Iraqi ethnic group has "opted out."

"Our civil war began quite dramatically when the South opted out of the United States of America," Dr Rice explained in an interview with Time magazine.

"Well, the Kurds haven't opted out of Iraq. The Shia haven't opted out of Iraq."

Dr Rice was referring to the US Civil War that was sparked in 1861 when 11 southern slave states formally seceded and formed the Confederate States of America.

While acknowledging "problems" with violence, Dr Rice insisted she did not think Iraq was going to slide into civil war.

She said the tell-tale sign of a civil war was a breakdown of "institutions of unity" and they, in her view, were still functioning in Iraq.

"People haven't opted out of a unified Iraq. People haven't opted out of the democratic institutions," Dr Rice said.

"There are some people outside the system who seem to be intent on trying to cause the breakdown of those institutions. But people haven't opted out of them."

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,20042699-23109,00.html

-- August 6, 2006 9:17 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Sara,

On the Israel Hezbolla conflict, and the alliance between Hezbolla, Iran and Syria.

They are allied but not in the sense that Hezbolla takes direct orders from Iran. Hezbolla was created as an anti force against Israels occupation of southern Lebanon. Before the occupation there was Iranian militants from the Iran Revoluton, that trained the first anti-Israel forces, and the organization then have morphed and evolved to what it is today.

While they have the same anti Israel agenda as the Palestinian Hamas, they don't have the same agenda as the Palestinians.Palestinians and Hamas, wants a state.

Hezbolla is more like a mafia in it's culture with hashish opium and cocain trade. Hezbolla is active very much in africa doing diamond business, (blood diamonds, that is, illegal diamond trade). They are very active in south and central America, involved with drug trade.

Their business headquarter is southern Beirut.

They are a terrorist organization, but have not been too active in a long time. It's thought that
Hezbolla have sleeper cells, and ready terror plans on the shelf, however plans that have been dormant for long time. Possibly the cells are active right now, doing new surveilence of targets to see if the old dusted off plans still is vialble.

It seems to me that Hezbolla have studied very very intensively the situation in Iraq, and how the insurgency is dealing with a standing army.

It also seems to me that Israel have done a very big intelligence blunder, being impressed by Americans and start relying too much on the airforce. Airforce is providing a viable important and absolutely necessary role, but is in no way a substitute for boots on the ground.

That goes for intelligence as well as combat.

Israeli intelligence was in the past top notch, but seems today have gone the "american way" sending drones with cameras, instead of using infiltration of the enemy.

This have resulted that Hezbolla have for years been able righ under the nose of Israel, build a complex bunker system, very very hard to deal with.

Anyone that know history knows how hard it was, to take small islands even with big forces, from the dug in Japanese defenders in WW2.

This seem to be a very well thought out process by Hezbolla.

Israel can't hold and occupy big areas of land, Israel is too small. Israel have in the past, always moved quickly right onto the center of gravity of the opposing force, killed it and done encircling movements, and got a quick surrender.

Israel can not count on that they will be able to crush the whole Hezbolla movement, as they can so easy take off the fighting gears, and blend right into the population.

So it sems to me that Hezbolla have planned this in such a way that Israel will be forced to go step by step through heavy fortifications, doing a war Israel rather dont do, but have to do, because Hezbolla will continue to rain rockets over Israel.

That will force Israel to go deeper and deeper. This stage Hezbolla dont need to win, and have probably figured that it will not do so either.

Now Israel have to sit deep in territory, Israel rather would withdraw, but can't as long as rockets can hit Israel.

While Israel is sitting in holding position, the second stage will probably start, the insurgency on the Israeli army, suicide bombings, and such, that is all too common in Iraq.

Hezbolla had years of planning into this, and the Iran Syria axis was probably well informed, as well as agreement on the timing of events.

Hezbolla went in and killed some Israelis,and kidnapped the two soldiers.

A day or so later another Israeli soldier was kidnapped by the Palestinian Hamas, but that was probably a copy cat.

At the time of the kidnapping Israel didnt move, then Hezbolla fired a volley of rockets, then they(Israel) woke up and got going.

Hezbolla that have been an almost benign very local group, with not too much headlines about it, got exactly what they wanted, the bragging rights that they have fought the fiercest battle to date with Israel.

Their own importance have skyrocket in their peers eyes, they can brag to the Hamas that they did something the Palestinian Hamas always talked about but never did.

It's an enourmous propaganda victory that despite the intense Israeli pressure the Hezbolla could still fire over 200 rockets on Israel, showing the Israeli weakness, and their own determination.

Israels way out is a withdrawal, that Hezbolla have blocked, Israeli population will not accept a continous rain of rockets. So Israel must stay, do as much damage to Hezbolla as possible. But as Israel have cleaned out every bunker, most probbly the second stage, of trying to damage the Israeli forces, by suicide bombings, IED's etc will start up.

Israel need this time, as much time as possible for the first face of the war to do as much damage they can, but once done, the whole situation must be looked over, for a solution.

Hezbolla, as a semi mafia, semi religious group, have been holding strong power in southern Lebanon, in fact southern Lebanon IS Hezbolla.

Syrian army could go in, but this is a very unlikely scenario, they are more brothers with Hezbolla and could get it under control, but Syria was occupying big parts of Lebanon, and everybody wanted them out, now the reverse would happen, they would come back. This solution is very unlikely.

The goverment in Lebanon needs to be bolstered up, they are in no way even close to control anything in their country. One of the parties in the Goverment IS Hezbolla.
Imagine one of our political parties running around with AK47's saying how they want things done.

Syria with such a big influence over Hezbolla doesnt even bother to have an embassy in Beirut, they have Hezbolla.

International forces must get in and hold the buffer zone, but this time, it must be forces that takes action, that can say yes or no, not only like the clowns that have been sent out with blue helmets sitting in towers, doing nothing but writing reports to someone that doesnt read them.

Either way, Hezbolla started this war, planned it for a very long time, and it's jut a matter if they can survive, both on the battle field and the political aftermath.

they may have idealism, determination and a lot of other things, but as soon as they start conventional warfare, they must be re-supplied.

This will after the war be very hard, you can't send a convoy of trucks from Syria or Iran with rockets no more, perhaps a few can get through but it will not be business as usual.

Israel have no problem being resupplied with ammunition or weapons from Germany, Spain US, France or wherever there is a weapon manufacturer.

Hezbolla have put all it's chips on one bet.

-- August 6, 2006 10:21 PM ∞

---

Terri wrote:

Question: Not long ago everyone was speculating that the dinar would R/V at 1:1 -- now the talk is 100:1 -- what circumstances changed the views?

-- August 7, 2006 10:03 AM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Morning All,

Sara,
A couple things, first I noticed that Nelly B made the following comment: "It seems to me that you have your own beliefs so deeply ingrained that you are closed to accepting any faith that does not share its values with that of the bible..." All I can say about that is this:

Hebrews 10:16 - "This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them."

I would also lead you to Galatians 1:8-9...but that one can lead to other discussions =)

It also explains the answer to his following question as to what caused you to be this way. From one Christian to another, Good on ya! Oh, and why is it that Atheists are always offended at someone taking a higher moral ground than them? Shouldn't that say something about their own morals and values? Hmmm...

I had stated in an earlier post how we should just stick to the dinar discussions, but I don't think I feel that way any more. There is a reason why this board has been up for so long. Even though the main topic of discussion should be Dinar, I think expressing ones views (as long as it is done respectfully) should be allowed and encouraged.

Ok, getting back to the main topic of discussion...as for those willing to start putting their fortunes in the Iraqi banking system, just wanna remind you that they aren't exactly FDIC insured. :) Similar to the Russian bank scandal, be careful. Unless someone knows something I'm not aware of, unless you stick to electronic accounts (i.e. ISX)...

Lance, Brillian reply. Although you might verify your physics equations.

If our dinar does end up RV'ing to some crazy ammt, Iraqi Dinar Exchange Direct is going to have a hayday! Don't think that they wont exchage your dinars for dollars...for a fee! And a hefty fee at that. You might lose 2% (or whatever they set it at), but at least you'd be able to cash out. [fyi 2% of 10Mil is 200K. Not a bad return] I am still skeptical though, that would mean an incredible demand to meet, and who's to say they wont just close shop and pull a Russian Bank on us?

Peace!

~Tyler

-- August 7, 2006 10:14 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Nothing, just speculations, your guess is as good as mine

-- August 7, 2006 10:14 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Terri,

Any speculation is fine, I have seen no direct evidence for any specific range, any specific number or anything that would say how much or how little. If the Dinar RV's we just have to see what it ends up with.

Reason suggest that it cant be 9 dollars to the Dinar and reason suggest it would be more than current value.

So, your guess is as good as mine.

-- August 7, 2006 10:21 AM ∞

---

Terri wrote:

Thanks Roger, I thought that prehaps I "missed" something.

-- August 7, 2006 11:28 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

10 killed as Shiite militia, joint US-Iraqi forces clash
Jul 7, 2006, 16:32 GMT

Baghdad - Armed clashes in Baghdad's eastern district of Sadr City on Friday between the Shiite Mahdi Army militia and joint US-Iraqi forces resulted in 10 Iraqis killed and 31 wounded, security sources said.

The Mahdi Army is the militia affiliated to Cleric Muqtada al- Sadr's Shiite movement.

In an earlier incident US armed forces killed two insurgents and arrested five others in Baquba during a raid in the city, 60 kilometres east of Baghdad, on Thursday, reported American military sources on Friday.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/article_1178904.php/10_killed_as_Shiite_militia_joint_US-Iraqi_forces_clash

US, Iraqi forces battle Shia militia in Baghdad
(Reuters)
7 August 2006

BAGHDAD - US and Iraqi forces raided a suspected death squad in mostly Shia east Baghdad early on Monday, the US military said, and a police source said they fought with militia there for several hours.

A US military statement said that Iraqi forces backed by coalition advisers conducted a raid to detain “individuals involved in punishment and torture cell activities,” and had come immediately under fire.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/focusoniraq/2006/August/focusoniraq_August44.xml§ion=focusoniraq

-- August 7, 2006 11:42 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Sara,
Thanks for the info, seems like we're cleaning up (finally ) in Baghdad now.

From the posts you sent, it's obvious that most activity is in the eastern part of the city, and this caracter Sad'r sem to be involved all the time.

Time to bring him in and put him in jail for the murder he is associated with, he is already a known murder suspect, and I'm rolling my eyes, shaking my heads, and wonder why he is not behind bars awaiting trial, but instead out organizing and instigate crimes all the time.

-- August 7, 2006 12:00 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

The two articles I just posted show Sadr's militia being engaged by the coalition troops. I feel this is a good sign. :)

Thanks, Tyler. The Scripture you quoted (could you please tell me how you managed to get the text hilighted?) from Hebrews does tell how Christians "get that way". I do appreciate that perspective and think that discussion of views with respect is good for the board. It is like real life - not only one topic or viewpoint.

Roger - awesome post, really interesting, about Hezbolla. Thank you for it - excellent food for thought there. Appreciated. :)

Sara.

-- August 7, 2006 12:07 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

The indicators that the RV is close seem to pile up, everybody is waiting, and some are doing their last minute Dinar Christmas shopping before the store closes.

If you are buying in this late hour, it might be an idea to look over the small text of some of the Dinar vendors.

Those that sells cheaper often have a couple of weeks turnaround until you get your Dinars, and those that are a bit pricier have a Dinar stash and send you a next day package.

I would recommend a somewhat pricier one, because you get it sent to you now.

If you read the small print on some of the cheaper vendors, you will notice that they have a caveat that if the Dinar RV's or changes value, your money will be returned.

That means if you deal with a vendor that have a 3-5 week turnaround, if the Dinar RV's somewhere in that time frame, you will not get your Dinars, you will be sent your money back.

I would seriously not go with a vendor that have weeks turnaround right now, the RV could happen at any time and you want your stash rather than your check back.

-- August 7, 2006 12:19 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

From www.iraqieconomy.org

Iraq pipeline sees no sign of completion August 1, 2006 - A plan to rebuild a 30-mile (50-km) pipeline from Iraq's Kirkuk oil field to the Baiji refinery to bring the Iraqi government badly needed cash is years behind schedule with no sign it will ever be finished, an independent watchdog said.
A total of $82 million from the coalition force's Development Fund for Iraq was allocated for the pipeline repair but it was not clear how much had actually been spent, said the independent Office of the Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction in a report.
Kellogg, Brown and Root, a Halliburton subsidiary which was originally supposed to build the pipeline, gave varied estimates of the actual cost of work performed, ranging from $1.8 million in March 2004 to less than $1 million in June 2004, the report said.
It subcontracted out much of the project to Iraq's State Company for Oil Projects, or SCOP, a company the report called inexperienced. Three places where the pipeline crossed canals were originally to be done by KBR but its contract was terminated and given to Parsons Iraq Joint Venture, or PIJV.
Violence has also taken its toll on the pipeline, the report said.
"According to PIJV, four separate subcontractors have refused to complete the remaining canal crossings (of the pipeline) because of threats and kidnappings," the report said

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 7, 2006 1:42 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Another from www.iraqieconomy.org

Oil export from Jihan port; daily export of 6-700,000 barrels expected August 5, 2006 - The Iraqi Minister of Oil said that the maintenance work in Jihan port is finished and the export of oil, which was stopped for three weeks, will resume soon.
The minister added that the amount to be exported is expected to be in the range of 600,000 to 700,000 barrels per day.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 7, 2006 1:44 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

One more from www.iraqieconomy.org

Iraq and India discuss commercial cooperation August 5, 2006 - The Chairman of the Iraqi Chamber of Commerce (ICC) met with an official of the Indian Embassy in Iraq to discuss trade cooperation between Iraq and India and the possibility that Indian companies will participate in rebuilding Iraq.
The Chairman of the ICC hopes that Indian companies will invest in Iraq to strengthen economic relations between the two countries.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 7, 2006 1:45 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Sara and others:

As several have stated that they like the content to be varied and not restricted to dinar discussion only, I guess if yuo can't beat 'em, join 'em!

I stated my beliefs as being Atheist. Perhaps to label myself as non-religious would be more accurate and slide me up into that 16% Yes I do frequently ponder the idea that there is more to life than science can prove, but ponder is as far as it gets.

My own upbringing and moral code: I was brought up in a number of schools in England and Wales, most of which were religious to some extent. Some more than others, but all with a C of E / Christian background. I attended church through school, was taught religious education classes for several years as school, sang (erm, mimed) my way through school assembly hym sessions, mixed in the local community, lived spitting distance from 2 churches for over 18 years of my life, have parents with very liberal, open-minded views, who influenced me only to 'make my own mind up'. I have had relationship with girlfiends who's beliefs were different to my own. I can't say I have never told a lie, but none with very serious consequences. I've never taken anything of any material or sentimental value (taken the odd pen, which I've not bothered to return). I've always been faithful to my friends, family and partners. I regularly find money on clinet premises and ALWAYS pass it to them. If someone asks me to keep a secret, I do. I've never taken more than 2 sick days in any one year. I've never been unemployed or claimed money from the state.

I do think of myself as a morally good person and I do take offence, when someone who is strongly religious suggests the immorality of those who are not.

To be perfectly honest, I have very little interest in religion (or rather becoming religious), as the whole idea of basing ones thought process and attitude to life around a concept of an imaginary being is completely alien to me. I liken it to a child having an imaginary friend, or to believe in santa or the tooth fairy, because they were brought up to believe in them. For me there is absoloutely zero reason (evidence) to support the existance of any kind of god any more than there is to believe in pixies, fairies and leprechauns.

The bible is nothing more than a 2000 year old story book made up by a bunch of do-gooders in the dark ages who saw fit to write a contradictory tale of moral guidance. I'm sure you will have fun blowing that theory out of the water, but please don't use quotes from the bible to do so. This would be using what I have stated (challenged) is unsubstantied evidence to 'prove' that it is substantiated, just as your rebutal to my statement below is a quote from the bible, which I have stated (challenged) is ultimately an instigator of conflict and killing.

QUOTE:
Sara Madgid wrote:

Nelly B said:

"Religion, or rather people having strong, differences of religious beliefs is the single biggest cause of conflict and killing."

Nelly B... it isn't God or religious belief in God which is the root of the conflicts and killing among mankind.
The real ROOT is this:

1Ti 6:10 For the LOVE OF MONEY is the root of all evil:

Sara.
END OF QUOTE.

There is more to human nature than conflict and killing and there is more to being evil than instigating conflict and committing murder. For example, to commit adultery, I would agree (as a non religious person) is morally wrong, indeed many would say it is evil. If indeed it is evil, where does money come into that equasion. Adultery is the product of uncontrolled desire indeed, but the desire for sex, not the desire for money. So how can money be the root of ALL evil? The bible is full of flaws and contradictions.

I seriously don't mean this as a personal attack Sara, so please only take it as a strong question against your views...

If the root of all evil is the love of money, why do you as a Christian, want to make a vast profit from Dinars? Surely that by definition makes your desires evil. If your desires are evil, does that not make you, yielding to your desires, an evil person? That would also make you as a Cristian an evil person. Is it not against the Christian faith to be an evil person?

A simple definition of Atheism / non-religion from the internet:

Overview of Atheism

Atheism is not a belief.
Atheism is the absence of belief in any Gods.
Atheists are people who do not believe in God or other spiritual beings.
Some atheists go further and deny that God, or other spiritual beings, exist.

Agnostics
Agnostics, in the popular sense, are people who have doubts about the existence of God. They don't believe that God exists, but they don't believe that God doesn't exist, either.

There are probably over a billion people who don't believe in God, but don't go as far saying that they are certain that God doesn't exist.

The strict meaning of Agnostic is not the same as this popular meaning.

An agnostic in the original sense of the word is a person who thinks that we can't ever know about anything other than the material world, and therefore that the question as to whether God exists or not is one that can never be answered.

Reasons for Non-Belief
People are non-believers for many reasons, among them:

* Atheism is their chosen philosophy.

* They find insufficient evidence to support any religion.

* They think that religion is nonsensical.

* They once had a religion and have lost faith in it.

* They live in a non-religious culture.

* Religion doesn't interest them.

* Religion doesn't seem relevant to their lives.

* Religions seem to have done a lot of harm in the world.

* The world is such a bad place that there can't be a God.

-- August 7, 2006 7:54 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

P.S.

I am well aware Sara will have the last word, because her desire to promote her own beliefs is far greater than my desire to promote my own non-beliefs. That was my objection in the first place :o/

Just don't try to peddle me any bibles at the hog roast and I'm sure we will get on just fine :o)

(((HUGS)))

-- August 7, 2006 8:01 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

I have a very hard time with Christianity, but I am strongly spiritual.

Awareness , I consider is totally spiritual, no chemical reaction in any brain can achieve conciousness.

The best supercomputer in the world have an IQ like a roach.

The , I AM, unit, the soul, erroneously in Christianity saying we HAVE a soul, you ARE the soul.

Earlier man was much more spiritual than today, we have been convinced we are the effect of genes, and impressions, from our experience, and that is a person.

That means I'm not talking to you, I'm talking to inheritance and old impressions.

We might as well let my answering machine talk with your answering machine.(In the meanwhile you and me go out and play golf and talk a little bit)

People from Jesus time would never recognize one bit of their original philosophy they put forth, they openly had the name for the awareness, as I AM, (Jahve), but it got perverted into a God that is a third person.

I have no problem if anyone is not believing in any of the established religions, but it might be a bit tricker to deny your awarenes, unless you want to give me a chemistry class.

-- August 7, 2006 8:20 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Nellie,

Oh yes, this will go on for a while, just hang tight, eventually we'll get to the Dinars

-- August 7, 2006 8:23 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Iraq PM criticizes U.S.-led attack
By QASSIM ABDUL-ZAHRA, Associated Press Writer
Mon Aug 7, 5:09 PM ET

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraq's prime minister sharply criticized a U.S.-Iraqi attack Monday on a Shiite militia stronghold in Baghdad, breaking with his American partners on security tactics as the United States launches a major operation to secure the capital. More than 30 people were killed or found dead Monday, including 10 paramilitary commandos slain when a suicide driver detonated a truck at the regional headquarters of the Shiite-led Interior Ministry police in a mostly Sunni city north of Baghdad.

Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's criticism followed a pre-dawn air and ground attack on an area of Sadr City, stronghold of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and his Mahdi Army militia.

Police said three people, including a woman and a child, were killed in the raid, which the U.S. command said was aimed at "individuals involved in punishment and torture cell activities." One U.S. soldier was wounded, the U.S. said.

Al-Maliki, a Shiite, said he was "very angered and pained" by the operation, warning that it could undermine his efforts toward national reconciliation. "Reconciliation cannot go hand in hand with operations that violate the rights of citizens this way," al-Maliki said in a statement on government television. "This operation used weapons that are unreasonable to detain someone — like using planes." He apologized to the Iraqi people for the operation and said "this won't happen again."

Friction between the U.S. military and the Iraqi government emerged as the U.S. military kicks off a military operation to secure Baghdad streets after a surge in Sunni-Shiite violence — much of it blamed on al-Sadr's militia. Al-Sadr has emerged as a major figure in the majority Shiite community and a pillar of support for al-Maliki. The prime minister's remarks underscore the difficulties facing the Americans in bringing order to Baghdad at a time when Iraqis are increasingly resentful of the presence of foreign troops.

U.S. officials are equally frustrated by the slow pace of reconciliation and what they feel is the reluctance of politicians to reach consensus among Iraq's religious and ethnic groups on the future of the nation. After the Sadr City attack, President Jalal Talabani, a Kurd, met with the top U.S. commander in Iraq, Gen. George W. Casey Jr., to discuss security operations in Baghdad. Talabani said he told Casey "it is in no one's interest to have a confrontation" with al-Sadr's movement.

Speaking to reporters after the meeting, Casey made no mention of al-Sadr but said he had discussed plans with Talabani to bring "fundamental change to the security situation in Baghdad." Casey said he hoped the new operation would "change the situation significantly prior to Ramadan," which begins in late September. "To do that, it will take the cooperation not only between the Iraqi security forces and the coalition but with all of the people in Baghdad working together to combat terrorism," Casey said. "All the security operations are designed to protect the population. And if the people of Baghdad can cooperate with the security forces, that can happen very quickly." But the public position taken by al-Maliki and Talabani signaled serious differences between Iraqi politicians and both U.S. and Iraqi military officials on how to restore order and deal with armed groups, many of which have links to political parties.

U.S. officials have spoken of morale problems in senior ranks of the Iraqi security services because of what they believe is insufficient political support by the country's divided civilian leadership.

The suicide attack in Samarra targeted the regional headquarters of Interior Ministry's elite commando force, a heavily Shiite organization which many Sunnis have accused of human rights abuses against Sunni civilians. The blast heavily damaged the two-story building as well as three nearby houses, said policeman Mohammed Ali, who escorted an ambulance to the scene.

Samarra, 60 miles north of Baghdad, was the site of the February bombing of a Shiite shrine that set off the wave of tit-for-tat sectarian killings and kidnappings that have pushed the country to the brink of civil war.

In other violence Monday, five people were killed and six others wounded when a roadside bomb exploded near their minivan near Khalis, about 45 miles northeast of Baghdad, police said. One person was killed when truck bomb went off in Khan Bani Saad, 24 miles northeast of Baghdad, police said.

Bodies of nine people were brought to the regional morgue in Kut, police and health officials said. Seven of the nine bodies were Iraqi soldiers.

Other victims included five men shot dead in a Baghdad barbershop and four insurgents killed by U.S. troops west of Baghdad, police and U.S. officials said.

-- August 7, 2006 8:44 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

MNF-I denounces death squad murders
Monday, 07 August 2006

BAGHDAD — The Multi National Force – Iraq condemns the recent attacks by terrorists and death squads against the innocent Iraqi children and civilians at soccer fields in Hadhra and in the Amil district of Baghdad. We express our heartfelt condolences to the families and tribes who lost loved ones in these vicious attacks, and for all the Iraqi people who suffer at the hands of these killers. Innocent Iraqis, who desire nothing more than security, unity, and prosperity, suffer fear and terror from murder squads on a daily basis.

On Aug. 4 in Hadhra, murderers killed 10 people, including innocent civilians watching a soccer game. Two days earlier in Amil, death squads also targeted a soccer field, killing 10 people, mostly young soccer players. These two recent attacks establish a shameful precedent. These murderers realize they’re failing, and are now targeting the future of this country, its children.

The Hadhra and Amil attacks were carried out by death squads who murder indiscriminately. Death squad murderers who kill innocent children will be brought to justice before the Iraqi people. These killers are destroying Iraq’s future. There is no justification for murdering innocent children enjoying the blessings of youth.

Coalition forces stand by the people of Iraq. The Iraqi government is ushering in an era of peace, stability, and prosperity for all Iraqis. The Iraqi people are uniting against those obsessed with chaos and hate and are providing the Iraqi security forces information to bring death squads and terrorists to justice. That is why the terrorists are targeting the innocent, freedom loving people of Iraq.

All children deserve the right to experience the happiness of childhood. We are working in support of the Iraqi government to ensure Iraqi children can enjoy their youth, free from worry that death squads and terrorists could destroy their dreams.

God bless the people of Iraq.

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1812&Itemid=41

-- August 7, 2006 9:29 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

MNF-I announces move to bolster security in Baghdad.
Sunday, 30 July 2006

BAGHDAD — The Multi-National Force – Iraq commander announced Saturday the repositioning of Coalition soldiers to bolster security in Iraq’s capital city.

About 3,700 Coalition force soldiers from throughout Iraq will be repositioned to support the government of Iraq in their ongoing mission to secure Baghdad and reduce the level of violence in that city, according to an MNF-I press release.

With the already-scheduled troop rotation of the 172nd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, the decision was made to reposition the unit from northern Iraq into Baghdad. The 172nd, an Alaska-based unit known as the ‘Artic Wolves’ Brigade, will provide additional security in the capital city. MNF-I officials said the unit’s characteristics will provide an enhanced capability to conduct security operations in Baghdad.

“This will place our most experienced unit with our most mobile and agile systems in support of our main effort in Baghdad at a decisive time,” said Gen. George Casey, MNF-I commander. “With the rest of the elements of the plan, this gives us a potentially decisive capability to affect security in Baghdad in the near term.”

For the rest of the story: http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1413&Itemid=18

-- August 7, 2006 9:41 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Video cameras on the lookout for terrorists

Monday, August 7, 2006; Posted: 2:52 p.m. EDT (18:52 GMT)
NISKAYUNA, New York (AP) --

It sounds like something out of science fiction. Researchers at General Electric Co.'s sprawling research center, are creating new "smart video surveillance" systems that can detect explosives by recognizing the electromagnetic waves given off by objects, even under clothing.

Scientist Peter Tu and his team are also developing programs that can recognize faces, pinpoint distress in a crowd by honing in on erratic body movements and synthesize the views of several cameras into one bird's eye view, as part of a growing effort to thwart terrorism.

"We're definitely on the cutting edge," said Tu, 39. "If you want to reduce risk, video is the way to do it. The threat is always evolving, so our video is always evolving."

Fohttp://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/08/07/terrorism.technology.ap/index.htmlr the rest of the story:

-- August 7, 2006 10:01 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Sorry gang... getting tired!

For the rest of the story: http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/08/07/terrorism.technology.ap/index.html

-- August 7, 2006 10:06 PM ∞

---

VALERIO wrote:

Nellie B

I perceive that you are an intelligent person, and not at all an athiest, through your words that I have been reading throughout all your posts. You just haven't bought into the confussion of any religion, and you cannot beleive in something you cannot make complete sense of, and the mysteries of the heavens and earth are difficult to understand. But just as we all have made our own investments in the dinar, not blindly, but with the knowledge and the hope of a potential great return. We wait patiently with great joy in that hope thru our faith that it will happen. It's our hope, and faith, that give us reason to be here on this sight enlightening one another, and sharing any good news. So it is with this life. We all know we are going to die, and we don't know at which minute, hour, day or year it will happen. Without hope of something more than this life, well........ we are utterly hopeless. So then, can we live eat and be happy because tomorrow we die? I don't beleive it's truley possible without hope, and faith, because if tomorrow we die and thats it.... well... not much happiness in that.
It's not so hard to look around in at this awsome creation, and it's diverse beauty, power, complexity, mystery, and and the laws that govern it all in perfect harmony, and know that there is an author of it. It's the hope, and faith, of an everlasting life beyond this one that ultimately sustains us while we patiently wait to see our return on our greatest investment.
I'm not a member of any religion, but I am a Christian. Christianity is a reality not a religion for me. Why? Because of the testimony of those who wittnessed Jesus in person, and wrote their accounts, and documented all his words. No matter how hard you try, you cannot find fault in him in any way, there was no sin, not one. You said these were just a bunch of 2000 year old unproven stories, but they are no more unproven than any other historical account. The proof is in the facts, and the number of wittnesses, and not only from the bible, but also from other written historical accounts.

You say you were raised up around, and in the church. Well...... I don't blame you one bit for turning away from that. The religious were the ones who rejected Jesus, and beleive it or not it was the men like you who recognized him for who he was upon hearing his message. I hope you begin to look at his testimony, his teaching to us for yourself in depth.

-- August 7, 2006 10:10 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Roger wrote:

"I have no problem if anyone is not believing in any of the established religions, but it might be a bit tricker to deny your awarenes, unless you want to give me a chemistry class."

I just might do that, I guarantee it would change your perspective quite a bit (or at least give you pause). Just let me know when you wanna "git skeweled". Hehe. It's free of charge.

Correct, there is no singular chemical reaction that can cause self-awareness. Folks tend to forget that there many reactions which make the whole. Where are the lines drawn though? What is or what isn't self-aware? An octopus.....a lamb....a liver cell.....an anencephalic baby? Who knows really.... dunno about you but my ability to communicate with an octopus is, well, limited. Yeah there are behavioral rules which we humans have made up to help us determine these things and all of the above exhibit self-preservation behaviors when the appropriate stimuli are introduced but......

So what is religion? Canned hope IMO, but what the hell does my opinion count. I cannot and will not argue the fact that it is easier on the psyche to believe that Nirvana awaits us after we depart this hellhole ---> " Without a vision, the people will perish." Yeah I believe the bible on the whole to be a bit far fetched but I cannot deny the fact that many basic truths about human nature spring forth from the text.

And humans (NOT ABSOLUTELY but on the whole) are like water, following the path of least resistance whenever the oppurtunity arises..... so many believe in scripture. Why? Its easier that way.

In a way I wish I did too. Existence would probably not be nearly as troubling to me........

-- August 7, 2006 10:12 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Let me go back to the Dinar real quick.....

Someone posted that an RV was iminent? Was this announced or just speculation...... I had to go grab my Asthma Inhaler when I read that post!!!!

-- August 7, 2006 10:22 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

Hey seems we having our life philosophical confession time right now.

Say ...OOOHHHHMMMMMM.

About Dinar RV, yes scroll back and you will find different postings on it. There has been some talk about this conference in regards to the Dinar, that will take place end of august beginning of september according to different sources. That would involve the Worldbank.

Another Dr, Q that seems to have a family relation to the "IN" guys, seem to belive the RV would come soon. No, no one know exactly when, probably when it happens it will be an overnight thing (my opinion).

Another strong indicator is the Iraq banks right now are hording their own currency, to have as much as possible when the RV comes. You have some postings on that too.

Also you might want to see a long term statistic on the Central Bank of Iraq,s website, especially paragraph 2 on the daily auction site. That will tell you that the sales abroad of Dinars have slowed down.

Another indicator is the big oilguys, standing there stomping wanting to get in on the oilfields, but they want guarantees that the stuff dont suddenly gets nationalized, as in Saudi Arabia, Columbia, Iran and Venezuela. The foreign investment law is pushed right now to go through pretty fast, but before the big ones comes in , it would be an economic stupidity to have a very weak Dinar, so the RV must happen before that.

Bugspray works better than Asthma Inhaler, gives you a spiritual lift and keeps you in touch with reality, I have been studying the lines on my left hand for an hour now.

-- August 7, 2006 11:04 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Bugspray? Think I'll stick with spray paint I can't seem to get the pink elephants to stop hopping on my chest otherwise......

Makes sense what you say about the oilboys they tend to shy away from nationalized stuff. RV would get a lot of people thinking. Too bad they will PEG it to the dollar (if PEGGED), it ain't that strong right now. Probably too volitale in Iraq right now to let it float eh?

One to One would be nice.I would be..............happy.

-- August 7, 2006 11:21 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Hey! Gang!
I have been out to sea with the Coast Guard the last few days...Just got back and caught up up on all the post for the last 7 days...
Wow! I must say this Board has been interesting for the last few days...It seems I may have caused a little stir with my 3AM ramblings a few day back...

Sara! is correct about a few things thou...I did have a brain fart that early AM...
It was totally wrong for me to have called the Arabs Sheep and Camels Ugly...for that I should be chastised...what was I thinking to insult such a wonderful culture....

Now! regarding any toys I may have mentioned, I truthly feel sorry that I brought that subject up in that I did not realize it was a sin for christians to play with toys...eventhou...I really don't think they know what they are missing...but.....to each his own they say...

Regarding the morning after pill....now! that one is a hard one for me...after watching the demostrations in Iran, Sadr lead demostrations Iraq and some of the fighting going on with the hezballoh on 110's TV....now I must admit wondering what the world would be like if we had dropped about 5 million of those little suckers 30 years ago in the above mentioned countries...MMMMMMMMMMM!

Now! For some of you guys who don't know that Sara and I yell and each other occassionally just don't understand...she and I have done that a few times over the past 2 years...I am sure that it won't be the last time she thought I stepped over the line....but regardless..we are friend's foremost and tolerate each other's failures and strong view points sometimes..eventhou she and I both think the other is daffy sometimes..

-- August 7, 2006 11:24 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

What is the meaning of life?
then you get married.
What is the meaning of wife?
I'm not happy, so maybe I shoud eat something. Oh man Im fat, that makes me unhappy, maybe I should eat so I get happy again. Im almost broke, maybe I should go to the mall and buy something that will make me happy. Darn I'm even more broke now, I hate my work but have to do it, so I can buy something that will make me happy.

Yep, life is a mysterious force, perhaps religion is a code of how to be truly happy.

I find the adherence to those codes are so disciplined that I have a hard time being happy.

Per most ethical codes, what were doing is not in par with common practices.

We should earn what we get, we should have a fair exchange for what we get, greed is deprative to the soul, and money is the root to all evil.

Despite that, I'm completely happy doing my greedy Dinar game, I know it is a chance to bump my survival up far beyond if I turn bolts, or hammer and bang the whole life.

If i follow the "path", I will drop what I'm doing, say my excuses, search my soil for my sinful way and go on be an honest worker and supposedly be happy.

I couldn't be happy with that.

If I drop what I'm doing, the Dinars takes off, and I missed the boat, I will be a very unhappy man. I can pretend that I followed a better path, but I would know that I compromized my own determinism.

Maybe life is about just one thing, be happy with, what you are, what you accomplish or achiev your goals.

-- August 7, 2006 11:47 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Carl is back, finally, we need some law and order here. Sounds like you've been doing some sailing, hope it was a fun trip. By the way, I agree, Camels are ugly. I can't tell their smell though, I have never combed one, but I have smoked a few.

-- August 7, 2006 11:55 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Carl, can you call me pls, I need to have my inflatable doll back you borrowed for your sea trip.

-- August 7, 2006 11:57 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Carl said;

"regardless..we are friends foremost and tolerate each other's failures and strong view points."

So true, thanks.
I think this group is pretty tolerant, really.
A nice bunch of people and the differing views makes it interesting. :)

As for the religion discussion - do you realize how much material you handed me, dear Nelly? LOL. No kidding.. !!
But just because you dont accept the Bible doesn't mean I won't quote it.
It is the guidebook for Christians, and we refer to our God's words for all of life and practice.
It isn't a "Christian" view if it isn't Bible.. so asking me not to refer to it is like saying.. "give me a Christian answer, but forget quoting Christ". (Gimme a break!)
So if you wish any discussion with me, you are going to have let me refer to it.. since it is from those words I derive my viewpoint, and you did indicate your wish to be tolerated and tolerant by joining in and adding your two bits worth for the board discussion.

Its late, so I won't complete a reply to it all - don't know if you even wish me to.. you having called it "having the last word"... but I call it answering back when you throw down a gauntlet. That was a pretty big discourse and diatribe, you know.

Just one point tonite.. on MONEY. You said:
"If the root of all evil is the love of money, why do you as a Christian, want to make a vast profit from Dinars? Surely that by definition makes your desires evil. If your desires are evil, does that not make you, yielding to your desires, an evil person? That would also make you as a Christian an evil person. Is it not against the Christian faith to be an evil person?"

Though the LOVE of money is the root of all evil, MONEY IS NOT EVIL IN ITSELF. (Another post I might take up the point of proving the Love of money being the root of all evil - even adultery, which isn't too hard to do.. but it is hard to address every point at once so let's set that aside for a minute and let me get to this point first - money is not evil in itself.) King Solomon was the richest person on the earth at one time, and he is not called ungodly for it. King David was no sluff as far as riches were concerned, either... and according to the Bible he was also "a man after God's own heart" (Acts 13:22). Hardly the accolade of a wicked, greedy and ungodly man.

Money, even having a lot of it, is not evil.
If it were, since the Bible says that the streets of heaven are paved with gold.. well..
do you not think you could level that charge at God Himself?
And HE owns the world and everything in it - that makes HIM wealthy, no?

Psa 24:1 The earth is the LORD's and the fulness thereof; the world, and all they who dwell in it.

God owns EVERYTHING so HE is wealthy, RICH, right?
Incidentally, God claims to own YOU, you know.. you are one of the - "all they who dwell in it".
YOU are His possession, owned by Him, created by Him.. Interesting to think of, isn't it?
Bit off topic, though.. come back to that later.. where were we? Oh yes..

Money, wealth, riches.. are not evil.
LOVING money or wealth - enough to do something dirty, evil, illegal or underhanded to get it.. that is evil.
The Bible says we should be seeking WISDOM..

Pro 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all your getting get understanding.

What does PRINCIPAL mean?

prin·ci·pal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prns-pl)
adj.

First, highest, or foremost in importance, rank, worth, or degree; chief.
==

If wisdom is the principal thing to get.. the first, highest and most important thing to get in life... what happens if we get it?
The Bible, in poetical fashion, likens wisdom to a woman when it says:

Pro 3:13 Happy is the man that finds wisdom, and the man that gets understanding.
Pro 3:14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain of it than fine gold.
Pro 3:15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things you can desire are not to be compared to her.
Pro 3:16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.

Please note.. in her left hand.. is ... riches??
It would contradict a lot of poverty doctrines that some people teach but.. the Bible does teach that with wisdom comes riches.

That word RICHES is:

06239 `osher {o'-sher}
from 06238; TWOT - 1714a; n m
AV - riches 36, far 1; 37
1) wealth, riches

It is the same word used in the passage where God says to Solomon that He would give him riches (1 Kings 3:13) and where God says:

1Kings 10:23 So king Solomon exceeded all the kings of the earth for riches and for wisdom.

Solomon asked God for wisdom.. he got riches.. more than all the kings of the earth.
That was riches in the sense of wealth, of MONEY.. not just inward feelings concerning a spiritually happy state - as the comparision in the above passage is to real wealth or money.. 'Solomon exceeded all the kings of the earth for riches'.
There is no way God would say to for men to seek wisdom only to say in the next breath that if you get it (and the riches which come with it) you are evil for having that wealth.

If you still are doubting riches are from God and His wisdom consider this one (another use of the SAME word for riches used above - osher):

1Chronicles 29:11-12 Yours, O Lord, is the greatness, The power and the glory, The victory and the majesty; For all that is in heaven and in earth is Yours; Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, And You are exalted as head over all. Both riches and honor come from You, And You reign over all. In Your hand is power and might; In Your hand it is to make great And to give strength to all.

Note this says RICHES come from YOU (speaking of God). Why then would He say you are evil to have them?
Also notice that it says that ALL that is in the earth belongs to God (that isn't just things, but people, as in YOU).
Something to keep in mind.. but for now:

It is late to go into the exceptions (yes, there are evil rich people, etc), so don't shoot me over not covering every little possible objection.
The main point I am making is.. money cannot be evil in itself if the Bible says wisdom gives it and to "get wisdom" as the FIRST or principal thing..
and also that RICHES come from God.. That would mean that God is into giving evil things to people, does that make sense to you?
NO, because the wisdom from God is pure and its fruit (results) pure:
Jam 3:17 .. the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

Sara.

-- August 8, 2006 2:26 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Outlaw.. great posts, thanks.. have to get some sleep or I would comment further.
I appreciate the effort and the perspective you bring us through them.

Sara.

-- August 8, 2006 2:31 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Interesting article on the Foreign Investment Law.

The Vital Importance of Investment in Iraq
By Mahdi Al-Hafez

08 August 2006 (Al-Hayat)
Iraq faces several economic dilemmas. Some date back to the legacy of past wars, international embargos and mismanagement, and others started and have worsened over the last three years.

Perhaps the most serious case is the persistent attrition in money and manpower that has cost the country dear. There are also many challenges that manifest themselves, and are aggravated. These should be confronted in a positive manner, and correct solutions should be reached. The challenges include the rise in unemployment and poverty, the deterioration of basic services and infrastructure, the shortage of financial resources, and the need for root-and-branch economic reform.

Here arises the role of investment as a key channel for dealing with these major tasks. The advantages of foreign direct investment (FDI) can be summarized, inter alia, as follows:

• Contributing to solving the problem of unemployment and poverty by creating areas of work combined with the acquisition of new skills and qualifications through training and learning courses.

• Adopting cutting-edge technology and scientific innovations in the areas of modern production and management to raise productivity, economic efficiency and competitiveness.

• Promoting exports to neighboring markets by increasing production, and the resultant surplus of hard currency, as well as by the diversification of exports from transformation industries. In this way, the State, the beneficiary of investment, will ensure avoidance of the damages caused by price fluctuations in foreign markets, especially for traditional commodities, such as oil, on which the Iraqi economy entirely depends.

• Rehabilitating and building basic structures and essential services that will leave a positive impact on economic performance, expansion of production capacity, securing the needs of the population, and raising the standard of living.

These great advantages were, and still are, a direct cause of the fierce international competition to attract foreign investments on the one hand, and an incentive for the countries to provide guarantees, exemptions and facilities to foreign investors, on the other.

Iraq, with all the enormous pressures and challenges, financial difficulties and economic bottlenecks it is suffering from, has a golden opportunity to benefit effectively from FDI, in accordance with regulations and legislations to safeguard national interests.

We have previously stated the problems and prerequisites of the Iraqi economy. We have also emphasized the importance of seeing to these needs through the development of financial resources, the adoption of sound management of oil revenues, and the formulation of a sustainable development strategy.

These objectives cannot be achieved by relying solely on oil export revenues, because this may result in serious risks. For example, there is no guarantee for the continuation of this vital resource in a stable and durable way. Stability and durability are governed by many factors, including the troubled world oil markets and price fluctuations. Other risks spring from the serious danger to the oil sector, due to sabotage, disruption of export, smuggling and corruption.

Everyone is aware of the size of the adverse factors and the recurring difficulties the Iraqi oil industry is encountering today as a result of the absence of security and stability, the surge in terrorist attacks and violence, in addition to the weakness of the State.

The persistence of the Iraqi economy in this way, as a distorted, unbalanced and single-commodity-based economy, is something of an oddity that raises deep concern for the future of the country and the coming generations. Therefore, we must work to diversify the economy and provide new sources of income through the development of other productive sectors and by increasing the economic growth.

In fact, significant studies and estimates show that Iraq is in need of 100 billion dollars in order to carry out programs of reconstruction, rehabilitation of infrastructure and utilities, such as electricity, water, education and health; as well as combating poverty and unemployment and drawing out the required frameworks and setting up the necessary institutions.

This would incorporate the rehabilitation and development of the productive capacity of the oil sector, either within the scope of the oilfields already in use, or by creating additional capacity from new oilfields. Hence the vital importance of adopting a new law to encourage investment in Iraq is very clear. It is a moot point in light of the newly-proposed bill that has recently been tabled by the government.

The proposed legislation has many advantages: guarantees, exemptions and other incentives for foreign investors. It also includes setting up a relatively independent national body charged with promoting investment and licensing projects.

More significant is that there are several advantages of this bill that are not different from those ensured by investment laws in neighboring countries. This provides the possibility to compete and strive to attract Arab and foreign investors, and encourage them to take advantage of the opportunities available in Iraq.

However, the crucial requirements indispensable to success in this fierce competition are the consolidation of security and stability, the restoration of the role of the State in strengthening the supremacy of the law and order, fighting corruption, and ensuring proper mechanisms at the financial, administrative, and legal and other levels. In other words, we must create an appropriate and investment-enticing environment at the institutional levels in an appropriate way.

In this context, this will enhance the environment of expanding the role of the Iraqi private sector, and will provide new capabilities and opportunities for the private sector to forge partnerships with foreign investors and accomplish joint ventures as demonstrated by the successful experiences of other developing countries.

*Mr El Hafez is the Head of the Iraqi Center for Development and International Dialogue

-- August 8, 2006 7:38 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

It Seems Like...
The new Iraqi Prime Minister doesn't like our way of taking back the streets from Sadrs Militia..
Plus...it seems they have no interest in "Confronting" Sadrs Militia...
Now! too me.. if you don't confront and control....You Know! become the "ALFA MALE" of the jungle...then all of the little beta males are going to crap in your Jungle Bed...and everybody here knows how I dislike laying in a messed up bed...

AGAIN!...Listen to what he says....Watch!!! are his actions even handed or weaked handed toward any certain group? Observe!! he himself will tell you who fills his lauder with their coconuts...MMMMMMMMMMM Just maybe he and Sadr have a mutual NUT benofactor.......?

because just for the record .... EVERYBODY LIKES A NUT....EVERY NOW AND THEN!!!!!

-- August 8, 2006 8:11 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Roger!
Most certainly....it has already been placed in the first class section of delta with a camel cigerette and glass of scotch...also next time...let me borrow the "straight" one please...

-- August 8, 2006 8:46 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

This is a letter sent to the Washington Post by the General that's in charge of completing over 3700 projects for the reconstruction effort in Iraq. I don't think he agrees with the liberal BS being printed by their paper. Good reading, especially if you're involved in the Iraq projects.

=======================================================================================

From: CEGRD-Announcements (Do Not Reply)
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 6:27 AM
To:
Subject: CG's Letter to the Editorof the Washington Post

All:

With respect, I asked you to please read Major General McCoy’s accompanying letter which he, earlier today, sent to the editor of the Washington Post.

Any who wish are urged to share this with family members, friends, neighbors, local print and broadcast media representatives, and their elected officials. It is a message that needs to be heard.

Tragically, too few of the world’s public are being afforded a free, honest and un-politicized picture of what is being accomplished here in Iraq.

To the best of my awareness, never have individuals of consequence or authority here in Iraq claimed to have not made mistakes nor asked for only the “good news activities” to be promulgated. All that is sought is balanced, unbiased reporting so folks back home can see, hear and read an unvarnished, slanted version. To those who have striven to do so – thank you. For those who have not, I respectfully ask that they read – and think about – the General’s letter.

Thank you.

Tom Clarkson

LTC, Army (Ret)

U.S. Army Corps of Engineers,

Gulf Region Division

Public Affairs Office

Commercial: (540) 665-5344

Iraqna: 0790-192-5759

Visit: www.grd.usace.army.mil/index.html

"To make a difference, dare to be different."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: McCoy, William MG GRD

Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 11:48 AM
To: 'letters@washpost.com'
Subject: Letter to the Editor

I am submitting this as a Letter to the Editor based on the terrible, and largely inaccurate, article I read by Andy Mosher. He knows there is a good side to the story of Reconstruction in Iraq; he saw it! yet he chose to write a negative story based on old SIGIR findings. Why? Don't you want the American people to know the truth?

Why Won’t They Tell You the Truth?

After spending almost three days traveling with and being interviewed by one of the co-writers of a very poorly written article (“Much Undone in Rebuilding Iraq, Audit says”, Washington Post, August 2, 2006), I’m astounded at how distorted a good story can become and what agenda drives a paper to see only the bad side to the reconstruction effort here in Iraq. Instead of distorting the facts, let’s get to the truth.

There is no flailing reconstruction effort in Iraq. The United States has rightfully invested $20 billion in Iraq’s reconstruction - in the opinion of many here, we should do more. This massive undertaking is part of a wider strategy for success in Iraq that involves the establishment of a democratic government, the development of professional Iraqi Security Forces, and the restoration of basic essential services and facilities to promote the sustained economic development of this new country.

Yes, this reconstruction effort has been challenged occasionally by security, poor materials, poor construction program management practices, and in some cases poor performance by contractors for a variety of reasons. The Department of State and Defense professionals over here, many of them civilian volunteers, and the Iraqi associates who risk their lives every day to have a future that approximates what America has today, continuously see the challenges and develop and implement solutions. This is a core part of managing construction anywhere in the world and, while somewhat more complex here, it is successfully being accomplished. Have we been guilty of poor planning and mismanagement? The answer to that is, at times, yes. But professionals constantly strive to overcome challenges that arise and we are succeeding and making Iraq better every day!

The heart of the article rests on several old statements by the Special Investigator General for Iraq Reconstruction (SIGIR) which infer these are recent or recurring problems. The SIGIR knows that, in fact, program management, construction quality, progress, and accountability have all improved significantly since the early days of the effort some three years ago. Yet, the reporters’ “project problems” comments infer that these are recent issues. Such actions inflame public opinion in the United States and create resentment by the very people so many conscientious Americans over here are trying to help here in Iraq and worse, embolden our very enemies.

When I arrived here a year ago we planned to complete 3,200 reconstruction projects. Today we are focusing on the completion of 3,700 projects. We’ve started 3,500 of those projects and completed almost 2,800…and work is continuing! This is not a failure to meet our commitment to the Iraqi people as the article states. In some cases we are not executing the same projects—we have changed to meet new priorities of three government changes in Iraq since our arrival—but in all cases, rest assured, these projects will be completed. We discussed this at length with the reporter…and he was taking notes and recording our conversations.

We told the reporter that, while 141 health clinic construction projects were taken away from a U.S. contractor who failed to perform, they were re-awarded to Iraqi contractors who are already demonstrating progress, have improved quality and shown their great desire to work with the United States to help Iraq improve…and they are doing so phenomenally! We did talk to the reporter about electricity. Three-quarters of Iraq gets twice as much electricity today as they did before the war. Furthermore, we are working with the Minister of Electricity to improve the situation in Baghdad daily and have doubled the hours of power from four to eight in the capitol in the last six months in spite of the fact that demand is markedly increased with Iraqis’ new ability to buy personal electrical products. What is truly amazing to me is that we took the reporter to the Nasiriyah prison project and, while it is true that we terminated the prime U.S. contractor for failure to perform, the Iraqi sub-contractor continues to work there (now directly for us) and his progress and quality have improved significantly...and he saw that! We are not turning unfinished work over to the Iraqis as he stated in his article; we are fulfilling the U.S. commitment to the people of Iraq and using Iraqis to do it!

The reporter didn’t tell you about the hundreds of dedicated military and civilian professionals he saw over here working to make Iraq better, or the Iraqis who come to work every day at their own peril because they believe in what we, and they, are accomplishing together. He failed to tell you about Aseel or Salah who worked for the Corps of Engineers since we arrived in 2003, because they wanted to make their country like ours, but who were recently brutally murdered in the streets because they worked for the Americans. He never wrote about the Water Treatment Plant he visited that will provide fresh potable water to over half a million people in southern Iraq in just two more months, or the one in northern Iraq that is providing water for the 330,000 citizens of Irbil. He never told folks back home about the thousands of children that are now in 800 new or rebuilt schools, or about oil production now being back to pre-war levels and getting better everyday, or raw sewage being taken out of the streets and put back in the pipes where it belongs, or about the thousands of miles of new roads, or post offices, police stations or courthouses or… well, he just left a great deal out now, didn’t he?

Why? Perhaps it’s because some in the press don’t want the American people to know the truth and prefer instead to only report the negative aspects of the news because “it sells papers.” We deserve better from those who claim the protection of the Constitution we are fighting to support and defend. America, don’t give up. You are doing much better over here than all too many of your press will tell you. If you are tired of fighting for freedom and democracy for those who so strongly long for the country we have, then think of the alternatives for a moment. Iraq will be better for our efforts and so will the world. And you are making it happen. Be proud and keep supporting this vital effort. It is the most important thing America can do.

Thank you. I invite you and your staff to come over at any time to get the facts. I took a risk with Mr Mosher and obviously got what I consider to be a very unbalanced representation of what he saw, personally. But I still believe in general in the press and will always be open to helping you tell a balanced story.

Essayons! Deliverance!

MG Bill McCoy

CG, Gulf Region Division/Dir, Project and Contracting Office

Multi-National Force-Iraq

-- August 8, 2006 9:33 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Steve, you said;

".. so many believe in scripture. Why? Its easier that way. In a way I wish I did too. Existence would probably not be nearly as troubling to me........ "

People do not like reinventing the wheel. When something WORKS, you don't try from scratch to make something new again, something which will work. Christianity is old and tried and true.. and it WORKS.

Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: "Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls.

People like rest for their souls.. the old paths, the good way.

And Christianity stands out from all the other ways as THE good way because every other great teacher of history died and stayed dead. Only Jesus rose from the grave and triumphed over it. All the others pray to dead men or gods unseen which others tell them about - almost all are merely figments of the imagination of men long dead - gods made after the imaginings of men, many in man's own image - in their own likeness. Mankind has served Greek and Norse gods of passion (eros) or thunder (thor), gods of the moon or sun, gods of the sea (poseidon) or earth (gaia), gods who get drunk and fornicate and have babies.. or maybe they serve their own selves as god. Maybe they serve a god whose prophet has taught them that they must murder infidels to make their bloodthirsty god happy. Whatever their sincere belief, they place their faith in the hands of men and their words - men who have lived and died and STAYED DEAD. Jesus alone rose from the grave. He appeared and was seen alive AFTER they crucified Him. Men testified of it and the documentation of that testimony remains today in the book we call the Bible, and other historic documents (see Josh McDowell's book, "Evidence That Demands a Verdict").
The Bible says:

1Co 15:3-7 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. And last of all He was seen by me also...

Faith in Jesus is not a faith in a dead man from 2,000 years ago. It is faith in a God who came to earth and took on the human form we have (remember the baby in Bethlehem and the angels proclaiming His birth - Phil 2:5-8, Luke 2). It is faith in a God who conquered death itself by rising from its grip. This was certified as true by those who actually saw Him after He rose. Christianity is faith in a God who bodily ascended into heaven and remains alive there where He can listen to and hear us when we pray to Him today. When Christians pray they pray to a LIVING person, a Deity which conquered our greatest fear in life - death. He refers to all who believe in Him as His children... and He says He took part of being as we children are - flesh and blood - for the purpose of destroying the power of death and removing from us the fear of death:

Heb 2:14-17 Inasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, And release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For indeed He did not take upon him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham (humanity). Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Jesus was God who became a man, lived as a man in flesh and blood, sharing in our humanity fully. He then died as a man but He then did what no man had ever done, He rose from the grave alive. If that is true - He has power over death. Not only does He have power over it but He says that He can give that power to His followers - removing from them the fear of death. He promises to those who believe in Him that they too shall live through death and be alive with Him on the other side of it. If not, our Christian faith is in vain.

1Co 15:12-20 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is also in vain. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up--if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ (died) have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

This says that if Jesus Christ did not rise from the grave the faith of Christianity is in vain - it is futile and it is empty. And Christians are among men the most pitiable creatures - miserable for believing in a lie which promises them something real but delivers only an empty promise. That promise is the victory over death of LIFE - of YOU living beyond the grave intact, as you are, into eternity. The apostle says if we place our hope in Christ, in His promise, our lives will be given the same victory over the power of death as Jesus had when He rose from the grave. If that hope is a false one, a hope that is only for this life and does not deliver on the promise of a life beyond the grave, "we are of all men the most pitiable". Then the apostle writes BUT... for the apostle knows that faith in Jesus Christ is not in vain and so he boldly states, "But now Christ is risen from the dead!!" He states it as fact, as assured, for he knows that is not a vain promise but one which he fully is assured is true - true for him and for all who ever will believe in Jesus and obtain the assurance of having eternal life.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written to you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.

We pray to a living God who conquered our greatest fear - death. And that God, Jesus, promises to us that His victory over the grave is ours, too - by faith in Him. By believing that He died on the cross to take our sins and reconcile us to God - and asking God to forgive us for our sins, we become partakers of that faith which removes the fear of death from us. When the thief was dying on the cross next to Jesus, he at first ridiculed Jesus with the rest of them, but then he became convinced that Jesus was not a mere man, but God. In repentance and humility he called Jesus LORD, the designation of God in the Old Testament, acknowledging His power over all things as Lord and master over all of Creation. He said:

Luk 23:42 Then he said to Jesus, "LORD, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

What person is this that can promise a dying man to be in "paradise" on the day of his death? Was it an empty promise?
The keeper of the prision asked Paul and Silas:

Act 16:30 .. Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.

This dying criminal did what the jailer did in Acts 16 when he asked Paul what he had to do to be saved - he believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - that He was God incarnate, the LORD in the flesh, dying on the cross to take his sins and reconcile him with God. And Jesus said that on that day he would be with him in paradise. Do you think Jesus kept that promise to that dying thief on the cross? Can He keep it to you if you believe on Him? If you believe on the the Lord Jesus Christ, will you be saved? Will you triumph over death as Jesus did and no longer fear dying? Can He give you assurance of a life beyond the grave? All of Christianity says throughout history that YES, this faith works, you CAN have assurance of life beyond the grave through faith in Jesus. You do not need to reinvent the wheel - only go with what WORKS, and Christianity does work and has been tried and tested throughout the history of the world as being useful for this purpose, just as the wheel has been trustworthy for all mankind.

Rather than speculate concerning it, why not try it? See if the wheel really works rather than looking at its spokes and trying to decide if it will take you to where you wish to go. It only takes one sincere prayer to turn you into a Christian. Try this one: "Heavenly Father, I come to you in Jesus' Name. I thank You that Jesus came to earth and lived as a man - flesh and blood like me. I thank You that through His death and resurrection He proved His complete power over death and He conquered mankind's greatest fear of death. I ask You to forgive me for my sins and reconcile me to Yourself through the work Jesus did on the cross by shedding His blood for me - to cover my mistakes and sins - anything I have ever done wrong which would need forgiving from You. I invite You to be my Lord and Savior. Come into my life and give to me Your victory over death and Your gift and assurance of eternal life. I ask it in Jesus' Name, Amen."

If you pray that sincerely, from your heart.. you can see if the wheel works or not.
Oh, and if you do so pray it, welcome to God's family.

Sincerely,

Sara.

-- August 8, 2006 9:52 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Sara:
We are all God's children regardless whether anyone believes in Christ or not...
Jesus...did not do anything special...people see ghost everyday...
Ghost have gotten so popular that some cities have Ghost tours..for those unbelievers..

As far as reincarnation goes...the only difference in your belief in after life...and someone who believes in reincarnation is they believe that after this life...you are allowed to come back and play some more...you know just to gain a little more wisdom are have some carnal fun...
Your side...believes once you are stuck into a place...your there....no options...no opportunities to experience again....just beeeeeeeeeee with the master...sort of like house guest....now I'm a warm weather type person...it would be my luck they would stick in some far off cold envirnoment...now that would really be hell..

Given the option...the reincarnation point of view is more appealing to me...But to each his own...
I think next time I'm going to come back as an evangelist....you know like Jim Baker, or Jimmy Swaggart...I understand those boys knew how to play...especially Jimmy in New Orleans... that is my kind of reincarnation...Now! that you think about it...there might be something to all of the structured religious stuff...I know the Catholic Priest seem to be having fun...especially with the choir boys...and secluded nuns...

Just digging a little sara....lighten up you're on your soapbox again...

-- August 8, 2006 10:23 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Sara wrote:

"People do not like reinventing the wheel. When something WORKS, you don't try from scratch to make something new again, something which will work. Christianity is old and tried and true.. and it WORKS."

Aye it works. You'll get no argument from me there. It's HOW it works that I was getting at. It works by catering to mans ultimate want: eternal life. You see, at the end of the day all we want is to exist ad infinitum. How do our everyday activities translate these needs? Having children- In a way we live on through them right? And since an explanation of self needs to be included, we also believe in the notion at there is an afterlife and all is forever good here.

Two examples of self-preservation by proxy. Our need to continue to exist is so strong so as to include an abstract possibility even after the physical possibility has been exhausted. What? My body dies? Who cares, my spirit lives on..... I win.

Now I wanna be very clear on this. I entertain the possibility that there is a forever-ever land and all is rosy and green there. My problem (and yes this is a personal one I know) is that I am a fact and observation driven person. I have no experiences in my life which lead me to believe for a second that there is an almighty. The "God works in mysterious ways" explanation to me has always been a conveinent way to explain the inexplicable.

Come now..... the explanation in and of itself is inexplicable? Very nebulous....this is THE paradox I cannot get past, and never will being that I am a logic driven person. I am NOT saying I am correct in my view, simply pointing out how I see it (which is a limited viewpoint just like anyone elses).

Just as my last point: I have seen throughout the ages that as science progresses many of the "ultimate truths" upheld by the church were disproven (or at the very least the public he come to accept the scientific interpretation of those events). So as to not put science at odds with the church, we say that science in fact proving the work of god and helping the church in its interpretation of such works. The thought is that scientific breakthroughs occur because god allows it. Most of the greats in the scientific world held this belief: Heisenberg, Schrodinger, Bohr, and some guy named Einstein.

Ok..... so modern belief is being shaped by science, wether you like it or not. The church has in fact taken a backseat in society (this may be unfortunate but remains to be seen).

I wish I did have a spiritual side, my life might be richer in the end. Religion teaches us to tolerate things we otherwise wouldn't. But why then has there bee, and continues to be, so muchkilling because of religious intolerance?

-- August 8, 2006 10:50 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Ghost Theory?

Problem with the Ghost theory, Carl, is that they are incorporeal.. that is, "Lacking material form or substance... not tangible : having no material body or form" according to the Dictionary. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/incorporeal
In other words, you can't touch them.

But when Jesus rose from the dead He appeared to the disciples, and He could be touched.
Also, Jesus said to them that He was not a spirit (ghost) and he ATE with them:

Luk 24:36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you."

Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.

Luk 24:38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?

Luk 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

Luk 24:40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.

Luk 24:41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, "Have you any food here?"

Luk 24:42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb.

Luk 24:43 And He took it and ate in their presence.

A ghost cannot be touched, nor eat fish and honeycomb.
Jesus even said here that He had flesh and bones..

Sara.

-- August 8, 2006 11:02 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Ok ok ...I promise that was my last post on religion (for a while)

Okie that was an outstanding article on what is REALLY happening in Iraq. Unfortunately we as Americans have become too bent on instant gratification (hence all of the credit card debit, etc.). Too spoiled by Gulf War I where everything ran smoothly with minimal loss of American life. Back then we weren't rebuilding an entire country. This takes a lot more patience and yes unofrtunately more blood. I support our troops 1000000 percent and I want to see them home a soon as possible just like anyone else. Press coverage must take responsibility for being objective. What good does it do the troops there when all reports are negative. As General McCoy said it just serves to embolden our enemies. Quite dumb on the presses part if you ask me.

What Americans must understand is the impact that a free democratic Iraq has on the world. It is a leading producer of 3 things that the world needs most right now (oil, natural gas, agriculture (for its region anyway)). Strong democracies worldwide will foster more peace in the end than not. I imagine one day being able to stay at the Ritz-Carlton Baghdad overlooking the home of one the worlds greatest civilizations.

Go-go-Gadget- Dinar-Pegger!!!!!

-- August 8, 2006 11:13 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Sara!
Oh! Ya!!! Well! Sara you tell a Ghost that!!!!!!!!!! I'm sure not.....he or she has the advantage over me...their already dead...

-- August 8, 2006 11:37 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Steve;

I'm not into life by proxy. It doesn't comfort me one bit to think my children will outlive me.. what about ME? Ok, that seems selfish, but the survival of MY soul does concern me and I think it does you, too. You take great pains not to get hit by a passing truck because you DO care about YOU personally. Not your children.. YOU.

I don't believe in a forever-ever land that is all rosy and green any more than I believe in a little guy in red tights with a pitchfork. They are both caricatures and mockery of the truth - making it ridiculous so you can laugh at it and then dispense with the reality.

I believe all of life was Created. In scientific fact, you cannot take non-life and create life. It is unprovable. It is a fantasy, a lie.. a figment of the imagination that man could somehow create himself out of nothing. The numerical chance of mankind having arisen from non-life by random chance is far less than a monkey playing at hitting the keys on a typewriter and happening to put out the Webster's Dictionary. In other words, too remote for even you to contemplate. The chances of life happening by chance are zero.. actually..

It was Dr. Emile Borel who first formulated the basic Law of Probability which states that the occurrence of an event where the chances are beyond 1 chance in 1050(the 200th power is used for scientific calculations), is an event which we can state with certainty will never happen, regardless of the time allotted or how many opportunities could exist for the event to take place.(Emile Borel, Probabilities and Life, Dover 1962, chapters 1-3)
The mathematical probability of a single living cell arising spontaneously has been calculated over and over again by evolutionary scientists and they have been unable to come up with a figure which falls under Borel's upper limit!
http://intelligentdesign.org/odds/odds.htm

Therefore, though you cannot prove there IS a God, you can prove scientifically that life cannot have occurred by chance from non-life. What does that leave? A Creator. (Or we all came from aliens who dropped us here, but then.. where did the aliens have their beginning? What Created them if they cannot statistically arise from non-life, either?)

I believe ALL true science will point back to this first cause and Creator of mankind, not work against Him. Science only appears at odds with faith when those holding that faith don't have a big enough box to contain Him in. In other words, man's mind is limited so when they trust their own theory - like the sun revolves around the earth - that is why we say "the sun comes up and goes down" - they will be disproven. It does not mean that GOD was wrong, only those men. I covered this in a post called "The difficulties God has with men.. (like thinking the earth is the center of the universe)" here:

http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/04/iraqi_dinar_dis_3.html#121412

When you said, "Religion teaches us to tolerate things we otherwise wouldn't." I think that is true. When you continue on, "But why then has there been, and continues to be, so much killing because of religious intolerance?" Again, I would say because people are more committed to their pet theory (about the earth being flat or the necessity to kill everyone who disagrees with you for being an infidel, for instance) than the Truth. REAL Truth is not afraid of lies. It exposes them, as all true science exposes false scientific theory.. in time. If someone holds to the truth, they should not have to kill off everyone who disagrees with them. When religions kill each other, they are asserting they are right.. and very often, if you look closely, they profit from it by taking the spoils of war.. women, children, houses, land, oil.. etc. It gratifies their ego and enriches their pocketbook - hardly godly or tolerant virtues. They use religion as a cloak of covetousness, something the apostles said that they did not do, for they were true men:

1Th 2:4 But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts.

1Th 2:5 For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, NOR A CLOAK FOR COVETOUSNESS--God is witness.

1Th 2:6 Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ.

1Th 2:7 But we were gentle among you, just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children.

Sara.

-- August 8, 2006 12:03 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Okie...great post! Im so glad that someone finally wrote a straight-forward assessment as to what is going on over there. I personally awarded over $11 million worth in reconstruction and infrastructure support contracts during my trip to Baghdad. I can personally say that everything MG McCoy had to say was spot on. He has done a great job taking over MG Urias' post, who was the CG I worked for. In fact I have a letter and a coin from MG Urias for my work there...(bragging rights =)

Carl, you missed the boat man. Jesus is what our faith is all about. You are very correct about the fact that we are all God's children, but our whole relationship with God revolves around his son, Jesus, and the price he paid on that tree.

John 3:16 "For He [God] so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life"

1John 4:9 "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him."

John 14:6 "I [Jesus] am the way, the truth and the Life; no one comes to the father but through me."

There are so many other places I could take you that show that it is not about the religion of trying to be a good little christian boy or girl for God, but it is the relationship we have with him through his Son, Jesus.

Ok now I gotta get back to my job of saving the world with a pen and a contract. =)

Peace!

~Tyler

-- August 8, 2006 12:06 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Oh BTW...Sara you asked earlier how I highlighted the text...I believe you were talking about bold, italics, etc. Its HTML...basically it works like this. If I put "" (without the spaces)

-- August 8, 2006 12:09 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

No! Tyler!!
Didn't miss the boat...just wanted to take a different one...too boring on some ya know..

-- August 8, 2006 12:11 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Oh BTW...Sara you asked earlier how I highlighted the text...I believe you were talking about bold, italics, etc. Its HTML...basically it works like this. If you want to bold something, then before the sentence put [b], except instead of brackets, use the less-than and greater-than signs (same key as your period or comma). The result will be Bolded! Now after you are done being bold..use [/b] (remember to use shift+comma and shift+period to use the less than and greater than instead of brackets).

You can also use the same format, except instead of [b] for bold you can use [i] for italics. Then if you wanna get crazy, put them together and Voila! Super-cool text!

Have fun!

Tyler

-- August 8, 2006 12:19 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Oops...disregard the messed-up not complete post...hit post instead of preview. =/

Carl,
Roger that...and I'm sorry that was a bad pun for a CG guy =) However, not that I believe in reincarnation, but if I were to come back, I'd come back as a monkey. That way I can run around nekked and act like an animal, play on jungle-jims all day and fling poo at tourists...ahh the life...

But I would be a smart monkey that would make sure he has an even bigger stash of NID saved up for the big day when they call me, Mr. Chimp...

-- August 8, 2006 12:27 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Heaven or Hell is right here, right now. The reason I believe in reincarnation, and started thinking along those lines long ago, was that I do have some flash back memories, not long sequences, just odd bits and pieces.

I'm sure some Dr can give me a pill and a diagnosis, and declare me something, but I know he is full of s..t.

The type of knowledge of it is on the plane that , lets say you did brush your teeth a week ago, now, you have touched that toothbrush several times after that, and it is impossible for you to prove that you did so, there was no one with you in the bathroom to wittnes it, but still you were there, and you know it. You just know it. Dont ask me how you know something, when you know it you just know it.

It would be fun sometime, after my Dinar cash in, (hopefully) to spend some time in historic research and try to verify some of the flashback memories.

I have read about people that successfully have verified old memories from the past.

Now, this might very well be a take it or leave it proposition for most, I just want to say why I got interested in the spiritual side of life.

The discussion here are passionate and heart warming, and I say, whatever's going to float your boat.

For the Dinar madness, totally stuck in it, loosing sleep, dark ring under my eyes, have completed 23 out of Lance 28 points. Living on the line. RV closer, but when? ...couldnt help it, just ordered another 5 mill, if my engine blows I'm stuck, is there a way out of this madness....is there anyone out there that can please stop me.......

Carl gave me a very good idea, I kicked it in my head and I must say it makes quite a bit of sense.

Invest in the Dinar, and out of that have some "play" money. If it goes up and the play money exceeds the total investment, cash it in, you now have all the money back, you have originally invested, and the rest of the invested money, well....now it doesnt matter what it does, from this point on, you have not lost anything.

I think that was a very good advice, I take my 5 mil as "play money" , and the rest of my investment can go wherever it wants, it cant hurt me.

-- August 8, 2006 2:31 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Carl,
The "straight one" ? you specificly asked for the Gay one, dont change your story to look good on the site.

-- August 8, 2006 2:35 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Wait...now I'm confused. How do you tell the sexual orientation of a blow-up doll? Normally I'm pretty good at understanding things...but this one's got me stumped...almost to the point of losing sleep. 8-|

Oh, and I love dinar.

-- August 8, 2006 2:44 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Tyler,
Ask Carl

-- August 8, 2006 2:57 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Hello all...

I've a got a Dinar anatomy question for anyone.. On lets say a 10,000 or 25,000 dinar bill there is a black imrpinted serial number. Is this number unique to the bill or is it a series number that can be randomly repeated throughout other bills in your possession.
My friend has some dinars that came from a reliable source. They have all the security features (raised lettering, horses head, color changing symbol, ect.), however, I guess some of the black imprinted numbers are identical. Please let me know. Thanks.

TAYLOR

-- August 8, 2006 3:18 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Sara:

Who or what created God?

-- August 8, 2006 4:07 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Bought another 5 million on ebay for $2500.00. This equals to $500 per million. Below market value.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 8, 2006 4:20 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Tyler;

THANKS! :)

Taylor;

I saw a full discussion on that topic at the IIF once, maybe use the SEARCH function on the homepage and throw in "serial numbers" for the search topic. It was fully answered by someone and in the end it was totally legit is all I remember. Oh, yes, and they had them checking the bills with a black light for legitimate markings as I remember.. try "black light" for a second search if the first phrase doesn't turn anything up.

Carl;

Thought this relevant to the discussion:

Iraq Shiite Militias Now Target Gays
By UPI
Aug 6, 2006

BAGHDAD, Aug. 6, 2006 (UPI) -- Shiite militias in Iraq are now brutally killing gays and children forced into same-sex prostitution, a report says Sunday.

The killings are ignored under Iraqi law because homosexuality is seen as a horrific act against Islam, London's Observer newspaper reports, and those doing the killing face no consequences.

Section 111 of Iraq's penal code lays out legal protections for murder when the targeted people are deemed to be acting against Islam. Homosexuality is viewed by some as so immoral that killing someone who is gay qualifies as an "honor killing," the newspaper says.

The fervency of the militia death squads is growing into brutal "witch hunts" for homosexuals and even as an excuse to torture and kill people wearing Western clothing, the newspaper says.

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/breakingnews/article_21232532.shtml

-- August 8, 2006 4:22 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Roger!
Its not that the Gay one was a problem...it just like to sleep spread eagle and took up most of my sleeping space...plus it snored...

Tyler!
How to tell the difference is easy...If you are male and you wake up in the morning with the blowup doll next to you having a beduoin tent spread...then you have a live one there...

Simple!... I learn from studying observation methods...after all I...was...a..Deputy..

-- August 8, 2006 4:53 PM ∞

---

Anonymous wrote:

When Pygmalion saw these women, living such wicked lives, he was revolted by the many faults which nature has implanted in the female sex, and long lived a bachelor existence, without any wife to share his home. But meanwhile, with marvelous artistry, he skillfully carved a snowy ivory statue. He made it lovelier than any woman born, and fell in love with his own creation. The statue had all the appearance of a real girl, so that it seemed to be alive, to want to move, did not modestly forbid. So cleverly did his art conceal its art. Pygmalion gazed in wonder, and in his heart there rose a passionate love for this image of a human form. Often he ran his hands over the work, feeling it to see whether it was flesh or ivory, and would not yet admit that ivory was all it was. He kissed the statue, and imagined that it kissed him back, spoke to it and embraced it, and thought he felt his fingers sink into the limbs he touched, so that he was afriad lest a bruise appear where he had pressed the flesh. Sometimes he addressed it in flattering speeches, sometimes brought the kind of presents that girls enjoy... He dressed the limbs of his statue in woman's robes, and put rings on its fingers, long necklaces round its neck... All this finery became the image well, but it was no less lovely unadorned. Pygmalion then placed the statue on a couch that was covered with cloths of Tyrian purple, laid its head to rest on soft down pillows, as if it could appreciate them, and called it his bedfellow.

The festival of Venus, which is celebrated with the greatest pomp all through Cyprus, was now in progress, and heifers, their crooked horns guilded for the occasion, had fallen at the altar as the axe struck their snowy necks. Smoke was rising from the incense, when Pygmalion, having made his offering, stood by the altar and timidly prayed, saying: "If you gods can give all things, may I have as my wife, I pray --" he did not dare to say: "the ivory maiden," but finished: "one like the ivory maid." However, golden Venus, present at her festival in person, understood what his prayers meant, and as a sign that the gods were kindly disposed, the flames burned up three times, shooting a tongue of fire into the air. When Pygmalion returned home, he made straight for the statue of the girl he loved, leaned over the couch, and kissed her. She seemed warm: he laid his lips on hers again, and touched her breast with his hands -- at his touch the ivory lost its hardness, and grew soft.

- OVID, METAMORPHOSES , translated by Mary M. Innes

"The savage worships idols of wood and stone; the civilized man, idols of flesh and blood."

- George Bernard Shaw

-- August 8, 2006 4:59 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Nellie,

Any possible time line must have physical properties, for something to have happened one particle in the physical universe must have change place in relation to any other particle.

Change a particle and immediately you have created time, in where you can reference before or after.

A Spirit or
God, is a conciusness, that is not the physical universe.

An awareness that is aware of being aware, can not have energy,(electromagnetic, or inertia) matter (condensed energy), space ( relative positions between particles of matter), and time ( the comparable movement of particles in relation to each other).

Therefore it's meaningless to introduce the timeline of creation of an awareness, as all comparison would be the physical universe.

With other words, I would say, You are something else.

Or as Sara would say, God is something else.

You just are. Nothing in the physical universe can affect the awareness, unless you agree that it can.

To the degree you agree that the physical universe is you, to that degree it will affect you.

A person that has agreed to the point that he is stone solid, you cant even reach a person like that.

I would simply say, the unit that is aware, can observe, and want, is the spiritual unit. He is aware of, observing and wants in the physical universe, but they are two different properties.

Taylor,

Some of the arabic numbers looks the same, but if you look closely you will see a difference, there is an arabic number hat looks like a mirrored number seven. If you look on top of that number, you will see that it sometimes have a very small subtle two pointed crown, and sometimes a three pointed crown. At first glance they look the same.

Rob N.

Good deal, yes I do believe now is the time to do the last of the shopping.

-- August 8, 2006 5:15 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Nellie:

Jehovah our Heavenly Father has no beginning and no end. He transcends the physical limitations of time. He is both omniscent and omnipresent. Jesus said; "I am the alpha the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and end.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 8, 2006 5:56 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

As Roger said; "I do believe now is the time to do the last of the shopping." I doubt a 1 for 1 RV. But what about the possibility of the Dinar re-evaluating between $0.01 to $.68. So, what is the consensus among the group? What do you think we can expect concerning price?

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 8, 2006 6:03 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Rob...
I have read your post for quite sometime and I find you appear to be an intelligent person...
With everything going on in the middle east, and riots in Iraq... led by our friend Sadr...what do you think pragmatically the Iraqi RV value is going to be....?
Considering we don't know what those waffling Iraqi Leaders are going to do...
We may see an Iranian Flag Flying over the Iraqi Capital in the AM...nothing would surprise me at this time about this group....

-- August 8, 2006 6:31 PM ∞

---

Techy wrote:

100,000 DINARS AS ALLOCATIONS FOR TEACHERS

Baghdad, Jun.8 p.1
Prime ministry office emphasized on the application of employees retirement law for those who reached the age of 63 ,

while ministry of education has started the application of the law through referring teachers who are included to retirement to create the apportunity of assignment of the new graduated teachers. The ministry asked the prime ministry office to pay out the sum of 100000 diners as monthly allocations for its staffs.

Source:http://www.alsabaah.com/paper.php?source=akbar&mlf=interpage&sid=26307

-- August 8, 2006 7:05 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Pentagon says half Iraq's Army divisions take lead
Tue Aug 8, 2006

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A fifth Iraqi Army division took control of a section of the country from U.S. forces on Tuesday, pushing to 50 percent the number of Iraqi divisions that have picked up primary responsibility for operations, according to the Pentagon.

Whitman would not say when the next Iraqi Army division might take control of its area of operations.

Of Iraq's 18 provinces, the Pentagon says 14 are generally secure.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=politicsNews&storyID=2006-08-08T182924Z_01_N08258127_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ-USA-CONTROL.xml

-- August 8, 2006 7:13 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Anonymous;

Well.. inflatable blow up dolls or statues.. I guess there is nothing new under the sun.

Ecc 1:9 That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun.

Sara.

-- August 8, 2006 8:14 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Sara:
I don't know if at the time Ecc 1:9 was written the below was new or not:

They were receiving cell phone bills

Diesel was not as high it is now

Kentucky fried chicken was still served in round buckets

Blow up dolls could be folded and placed in your carry on luggage instead of carriered in a extra ox cart

The phrase hard as a ivory rock had a totally different meaning

McDonalds was still 15 cents

Coke only came from the fireplace flue

Recarnation had just been taken from the 10 most favorite concepts list of the early christians

The christians were still slitting animals throats to appease God,(Now! that is one of those things that make you want to say...just what the hell were you thinking?)

One of the early christian leaders was hearing voices coming from a burning bush

Another one had just come out of the desert after wandering around for about 40 years in goat skins

Abraham who started all of this Arab/Jew crap we are not having to deal with today, allowed two different women to have sex with him,....get this...he convinced them he didn't know any difference....now that is a good one...I've got to remember that line...

Jonah had just came into the pub with a fish tale about being swallowed about a giant fish who spit him up on the bank...and the bartender gave him a free draft, since it was the best one he had heard that night

Oh! well! at least you have to give our ancestors an "A" for imagination and creativity..

-- August 8, 2006 9:37 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Nelly B;

You asked who or what made God?

All things must have a beginning. As I said to Steve, statistically it is scientifically impossible.. I say IMPOSSIBLE for non-life to give rise to life. That is scientific FACT. It simply has not happened. All things therefore had a cause which is not from inert matter - a Creation, somewhere back in time. In fact, ALL things must have a cause. If you look at the computer desk you are sitting at, it had a cause. Supposing it to be made of wood - someone made it from wood, the wood came from a lumber yard, the lumber from a tree, and how did the tree get there? By a process of photosynthesis, but what about the FIRST tree.. how did it come into being if life cannot occur from NON-life? What started it? That cause which we call the Uncaused First Cause of all things is God. God was never Created, yet He is the Creator. God has no beginning and no end. He is outside of time. I know that is mind blowing for us - being created beings - to think of something which is so alien to what we are. But that is the problem with God, He doesn't fit into our mental boxes. So in answer to your question, no one and nothing made God. If something made God then you would ask.. and what made THAT thing.. and keep going back and back.. and back.. until you reached the first UNCAUSED Cause. The Uncaused Cause is God. It is like talking the Big Bang.. where did the tiny particle come from that went BANG? And why did it go BANG? When you get to the original CAUSE of all things, including the Big Bang.. you end at the Uncaused Cause.. God is that Uncaused Cause of all things.

Roger spoke of consciousness being outside of time, and that is true for God. His conciousness had no beginning (the causeless cause of conciousness) but ours did. For God, He does not experience time as we do, but his conciousness is outside of time and very comfortable there, I might add. I think He was happy to go back to heaven and get out of the time continuum, it would be very limiting to a being used to being outside of time.. anyhow, that is off topic. Well, ok, let me elaborate just a tiny bit more on this since I am reading about Godel's conclusion that time cannot exist. This sounds crazy, but it is theologically sound. Time is real, but not real to God so in reality, it does not exist. LOL. Let me elaborate from the book I am reading.. "In 1942, the logician Kurt Godel and Albert Einstein became close friends; they walked to and from their offices every day, exchanging ideas about science, philosophy, politics, and the lost world of German science in which both men had grown up. By 1949, Godel had produced a remarkable proof: In any universe described by the Theory of Relativity, time cannot exist. Einstein endorsed this result reluctantly, but he could find no way to refute it, and in the half-century since then, neither has anyone else.."

That is interesting.. time in reality does not exist. The reason that time does not exist is that it is a creation which God is outside of. From His perspective all of time can be looked at like you looking at this post full of writing. You can see the beginning of the post and the end of it or anywhere inbetween. Even so, God can look at time like this page. He is outside of it. We are like the words you are reading, we are going along with each sentence and some things are past for us and other things future. But God is not within time but above and outside of it. So time for God does not exist since He sees it all at once. Therefore, in reality, from where God is, time does not exist - which is why Godel found his remarkable proof that: In any universe described by the Theory of Relativity, time cannot exist.

We understand beginnings because we had one. We find it hard to think of things which had NO beginning at all. It is easier for us to think of a continuous stretch of time going backward forever and forward forever.. then we don't have to think of a beginning or end at all. But, unfortunately, it does not fit with science and reality. We know that the world has an age limit.. a beginning, if you will. We cannot say all things have always been because Science shows us the FACT that it happened at a point in time in the past.. it had a beginning. And we know from science it has an end, too. Science is an aid to God because men cannot say that matter is eternal. They cannot say that the earth always was and always will be. They must look at the scientific facts of the earth having a beginning and end and then go from there. And that helps to get to God because it forces us to ask the Big Questions in life.. like where did it all come from (God) and if it ends, what is the purpose of it?

Sara.

-- August 8, 2006 10:03 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Rob N.
My take is 1 to 15 cents.That will serve a very good purpose.

First the Dinar will be very close to it's actual value, and that means it can be without frear sold on the exchange market, once out, the piossibility that it will increase in value is high.

If the Dinar is set at 1 Dollar, that means it might not hold that value, and when traded it can easily take a nosedive into territory where it would be harmful for Iraq's economy.

I have reliable sources on this I did have a consultation with Punxsutawney Phil on this.

-- August 8, 2006 10:14 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Carl;

LOL.. you are funny with your caricaturing.

Ecc 1:9 is speaking in eternal terms about human nature and its needs - which do not change - when it speaks of that which always is and always shall be. The dilemmas always are the same which face mankind, they do not change. And mankind's inventions all fit the same mold, only in slightly different fashions. From war implements of flint arrowheads to guns then nuclear missiles, we are still looking at a war implement. More advanced, I grant you, but it fits the same human "need" if you will. The changes you speak of do not change the underlying principle - there is nothing new under the sun from that perspective (which is what this verse was referring to). Other illustrations - Communication has changed a lot - from the town crier to printed pages to the airwaves to the TV, the phone and then to the internet - yet mankind's need to communicate has remained unchanged. Transportation needs have been met with new inventions from the horse drawn chariot to today's trucks, cars, planes and trains (your reference to diesel) - so the need to move around as quickly as possible has not changed. Food - Kentucky fried chicken, coke, McDonalds.. the need for food has not changed.. but do you really think Coke and McDonalds are ADVANCEMENTS? LOL. I merely suggest that the statue and the blow up doll likewise serve the same purpose. Human nature and its needs do not change - the players on the stage are just different.

Sara.

-- August 8, 2006 10:29 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Naa, Sara, your idea of time doesnt hold water.

Once again, time is the change of position of one or more particles in relation to others.

The Relativity Theory by Einstein is a description and a model of physical properties of the universe in any given stage.

The theory of Relativity would therfore also apply in a completely static unverse.

A static universe , no motion relative to any other particles would be a timeless universe. And in that sense it would be true that time would not exist.

But it would not be true that time can not exist, it would be false to say it's a timeless universe, because there is a lot of spinn on things everywhere we look.

In ordiary slow motion universe that we can observe, Einsteins Relativity theory apply very very little, only when things speed up a lot, will the effects be more noticable.

Newtons laws are the most used and applied, NASA uses Newton most and marginally Einsteins Relativity Theory

When speeds go into really high gear, there is a lot of absurdities happening with time.

We have still a lot of different views on conciousness, I know you see the God conciousness as a third person,and he is cause, and the rest is effect, I say a conciousness is cause, and its the awareness unit I'm addressing this to. You. May it be big like a God, or small like a loser.

That is the basic difference between newer Jewish/Christianity/ Islam and the rest of the world religions.

Sara, I find it very interesting to discuss this,and I must admit that I have an easy time getting drawn into it, but I must say Sara, your grab on physics and your effort to explain God and why its right with your understanding of physics, would never pass a college physics class.

I have in my possesion right now about ten books on Relativity, and a couple of them in Quantum Mechanics, and I know exactly what you're refering to when it comes to Einstein, but you have the very basic understanding of both physics and Relativity a bit upside down.

I would be glad to have a long debate posting on Relativity and hopefully I might get the basic idea across that way, but I think I'll choose another forum or that as that subject will cover a lot of pages, and somewhere in this we're suppose to toss in a Dinar thing on occasion.

All I can say is you're tossing in names like Einstein as an authority of why God is God in your view.

True, Einstein believed in God, but perhaps not in the way you might think, or according to Christian views. I have read the book on Einsteins spiritual life, a lot of letters is quoted and a lot of his own thinking is in there.

He, had a bit hard time with God as a third person.

His Relativity Theory has not been punctured up to date, but believe me there are a lot of scientist that wants to be the next Einstein, and all along the way, any and all experiment that have been possible to do have all confirmed his Theory as true.

His most famous expression that I find in a lot of books regarding Einstein and his relation to God is the famous
-"God does not play dice with the universe"

It just works the way it works.

-- August 8, 2006 11:03 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

JUST ABROWSING...
I was apparently bored silly this afternoon, so I begin browsing through the internet about Reincarnation....I am probably going to discuss here more about this concept than you ever wanted to know...
According to what I read, the Eqyptians believed in reincarnation....That is why they embalmed the body in order to preserve it so it could travel along with KA...KA was considered the soul...
The primitive humanoid gradually developed the concept of a soul...then came the believe that the soul departed at death and arrived at birth...Soon it developed that the soul could leave the body and come back into another body or enter an animal of a lower life form. It was believed at one time the soul left the body during sleep, as staying in this body for long time would drive any soul battie.......this referred to know as astro-projection. Artist would draw the soul entered and leaving the body as vapor through the nostrils...

Pythagoras, the Greek philosopher and mathematician was sitting one night in his little nest and came up with the difinition of the soul....he stated the soul was immortal and simply resided in the body for a short period of time...therefore when the body dried up and blew away the Soul still survived...his teachings indicated the soul through numerous rebirths..
called Birth...Life....Death..the soul toke a sabbatical and rested with a bottle of good imported brew until told to get their lazy vapor soul by to work...after going through several births and deaths the soul has become so purified or wise that it no longer has to continue the schooling..

Plato, another Greek philosopher, looked at Pythagoras, theory and stated...well! I guess it makes sense...Plato went on to describe the soul as spiritual, and eternal. Now ! he also though that if the soul sort of was bad,and didn't straighten up and behave, it would have to spend sometime in Tartarus, a place of damnation...this appears to have been the beginning of the concept karma or the christian concept of hell...

Around the 1st Century is was discovered the Druids were reincarnation believers...and came back to experience things in different bodies.

Now the early Hebrews showed little evidence of believing in reincarnation, and the part that they did believe became known as Kabbalistic teaching. Now the early christians, which consisted of the Gnostics,Manichaeans, and the Carthari taught reincarnation for about 300 years, however the early orthodox christian theologians repudiated it.
History shows St Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa taught the soul shall be healed and purified. If it does not occur in this life, then it must occur in future earthly lives...

Later in AD533, reincarnation was declared a heresy by the Council of Constantinople. Reincarnation did not go along with the eschatological teachings of death and judgement, which was by then the established orthodox christian doctrine. In words the christians stated, man has just one life to get it right...and those rules of right were set by the church, which strengthen their hold over the people. However, many christians still believed in reincarnation because at that time many thought it was taught by christ...

Most Wicca and other faiths believe reincarnation is simply rebirth. Just as the earth is renewed so is the spirit and soul which knows no death. To many mother nature herself teaches reincarnation.In the spring trees give birth to new leaves, flowers bloom, new foliage appears.In the summer and fall crops are harvested. In the winter the earth rest, then once again renews itself...

Now eastern religions teach that man can return into lower forms. Certain sects o Gnosticism held this belief. The rational is that the soul can if it wishes experience all forms of life to make itself wiser.

But who really knows...as Roger stated, once you become aware, and you realize that you are aware...then your views of life changes...what those views are depends on which side of the concept you are looking at...

-- August 8, 2006 11:29 PM ∞

---

Anonymous wrote:

Sara wrote:

"In scientific fact, you cannot take non-life and create life. It is unprovable. It is a fantasy, a lie.. a figment of the imagination that man could somehow create himself out of nothing."

Sara wrote:

"I say IMPOSSIBLE for non-life to give rise to life. That is scientific FACT."

Once again proving my point about the shortsightedness of man. Only human arrogance would lead you to believe that all of the answers we need to determine the puzzle are here on this planet. We can debate scientific fact until our faces turn blue. Humans love themselves so much that they aren't willing to entertain the idea that something is out of reach, without explanation. Good for Dr. Borel, I applaud him for having figured out a set of rules as they apply to this speck of dust that we live on.

Perhaps he would like to fill us in on the probabilities as they pertain to Alpha Centauri, or some other stellar system other than our own. I'll wager many Dinar that he doesn't have a clue as to where to begin. And neither does any other scientist who laid down those supposed truisms of "no life from non-life".

All I would do is caution you to take a closer look at your ability to extract information in this Universe. It is infinitesimal compared to the multitude of possibilities which abound. Ever wonder what a microwave is? Or what a Gamma Ray is? I'll give you a hint....it's the same kinda stuff that lets you observe things on a daily basis only we see a very narrow past of it. Same goes for hearing, feeling, on and on.

We exist within VERY tight condition boundaries. Hell, the pH within our bodies doesn't vary much beyond 7.35 to 7.45 anything else is considered pathologic. Our ability to observe and reason are very limited. Don't assume man has it figured out..........the argument that life CANNOT come from life is unsubstantiated anywhere except for this tiny speck of dust we call home.

-- August 9, 2006 12:19 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Yikes just got a chance to read Saras post about Godel and Einstein. I would ask you about how well versed you are on Relativity and the notion of time. "Existence" is a VERY loose term in regards to the discussion of. Time doesn't allow me to be in the same place at once. Yet it allows photons and some other subatomic particles to do just that. Why? It's all relative (hence the name of the theory). Ever wonder why big things exist longer and smaller things shorter? Interesting stuff. Let me know if you want a primer. It's free of charge.......

-- August 9, 2006 12:41 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Anonymous;

In answer to a law of our physical universe which we have found to be universal, you postulate other universes where these laws do not exist to substantiate what is IMPOSSIBLE in our universe. Does that not strain plausibility? Straining at a gnat to swallow a camel - you are expecting to overthrow all the known laws now to create a figment of your imagination in some faraway land - not a very scientific or factual approach now, is it?

Sara.

-- August 9, 2006 1:02 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Roger;

You said: ".. no motion relative to any other particles would be a timeless universe."

I agree and do not think my concept of time "does not hold water". Time was created when the "Big Bang" occurred, hurtling matter through space relative to each other (your definition of "time is the change of position of one or more particles in relation to others").

When you say "But it would not be true that time can not exist, it would be false to say it's a timeless universe, because there is a lot of spinn on things everywhere we look." I think you are arguing that absolute stopping of all motion is impossible, however, God is not limited like you are and He can stop the spin of all things if He wishes to - even as He began its motion.

When you say: "conciousness is cause.. You. May it be big like a God, or small like a loser." I think you are arguing that man caused his own conciousness? That his consciousness came from himself? Conciousness had a cause and beginning.. if you think you made your own conciousness that is a lot of faith in yourself. But what proof is there that you caused your own conciousness? Can you offer any proof that you did so, or do you expect that teaching to be accepted by blind 'faith'?

Einstein had a faith in God, I agree, not in the Christian understanding of it, but he nevertheless felt that God existed and was real and behind all the scientific processes in the universe. His famous quotation: -"God does not play dice with the universe" was an acknowledgement of those scientific processes having order and structure and reason and law behind them. He said that the reason he did so well in his discipline was that he never lost the wonder of a child looking for the first time at the universe and he constantly asked the question, "why?" I think that a good example. :)

Sara.

-- August 9, 2006 1:04 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Carl said;

"Now the early christians, which consisted of the Gnostics, Manichaeans, and the Carthari taught reincarnation for about 300 years, however the early orthodox christian theologians repudiated it. Later in AD533, reincarnation was declared a heresy by the Council of Constantinople. Reincarnation did not go along with the eschatological teachings of death and judgement, which was by then the established orthodox christian doctrine"

Very well put, Carl. You did forget one thing, though.. the Christians were being thrown to the lions and killed for their faith for many of those years.. remember the catacombs where they hid in the labyrinth passages from certain death? So, you see, they took a while to get to the point of setting out exactly the church position of where they stood about reincarnation. But you did note that from the very earliest of Christianity, quote, "however the early orthodox christian theologians repudiated it." This proves that from the time of the apostles (who were orthodox Jews) this was not one of the truths preached by Christ and His apostles. Christ never taught it, His apostles never taught it - and as you pointed out, reincarnation has never been held by the orthodox Hebrew (Jewish) people.

It is true that "rules of right were set by the church, which strengthen their hold over the people" - in some churches that kind of manipulation has happened and it is not at all like Jesus Christ. The true "rules" as you called them - or fundamental truths held to by the church - were derived from the words of Jesus and the teachings of His apostles. As such, they were not intended to strengthen the hold of any "church" over the people, but were to be set out as the guidelines for the faithful for them to learn to adhere to Jesus and His teachings from Jesus' words themselves. They were thus intended to liberate them from the heathen superstitions of the people that surrounded them and allow them to have the freedom which is in Christ and His words. The Bible did say that some would sneak in and teach false teachings - false "rules" to strengthen their hold over the people, as the Apostle Paul warned with his final remarks:

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also from among your own selves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after themselves
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Here Paul warned of people within the church who would arise "from among your own selves" (the Christians) and draw away people from God to THEMSELVES, instead of to Jesus. Therefore, this remark of yours about those who "strengthen their hold over the people" I take to refer to those kinds of men - not to the faithful persons who were as Paul, true to God - and not to those who pointed people toward Him and not to themselves. Usually the false ones did what they did for monetary gain and selfish purposes. Peter expounded on it when he went so far as to warn:

2Pe 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of them the way of truth will be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And by covetousness they will make merchandise of you with deceptive words: whose judgment now for a long time has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

Again, referring to these false ones having inward motives to use the people (make merchandise of you with deceptive words) which strenthened THEIR hold over the people, and not looking after the "flock of God" for God from faithful hearts as true shepherds. Since the true shepherds warned of these who "strengthen THEIR hold over the people" long beforehand, it is no wonder to see those wolves march across the pages of history in the years after the apostles died.

Gal 4:16 Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?
Gal 4:18 But it is good to be zealous in a good thing always

Sara.

-- August 9, 2006 2:41 AM ∞

---

Terri wrote:

I read this on another forum (www.aboutdinar.com) -- anybody here hear anything like this????:
========================

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:50 pm Post subject: Anyone watch CNN World News last night?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brother called me tonight said he was watching Cnn World news last night, and they were talking about the dinar being rv/released next week, along with a 90 day period before it begins trading internationally.

Sorry, that I didn't get to see it. I'm trying to confirm this. Hopefully someone may have seen the report?

Brother said it floored him, when he heard it mentioned.

-- August 9, 2006 7:28 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Terri.....

I hope this rumor is correct. I remember reading something like this about a month ago on another forum.

A lot of times it's just a dealer, or one of their stooges, spreading rumors to increase Dinar sales.

Sure would be nice though!!

-- August 9, 2006 8:06 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Terri,

Other site has already placed it in the Trash Can where it belongs. Another pump and dump from a dealer probably. Beware of Greeks bearing gifts and rumors.

-- August 9, 2006 8:07 AM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

Would CNN World News broadcast a rumor or would they use a reliable source.....remember Terri is saying that his brother saw this himself on CNN World News. Just asking.

-- August 9, 2006 8:57 AM ∞

---

Bob wrote:

Never mind......tired eyes...my apologies, LOL. Dumb attack.

-- August 9, 2006 9:02 AM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Wow...all this theory of relativity, time, space stuff makes my brain hurt. The curse of a simple man...so I pretty much stick to a couple truths and call it good.

Space: the final frontier...I dare you to take a few minutes and ponder on this question: Where does space end? Where does it begin? How is it possible? Got the picture? It is infinite, and if that is possible, then how can you not wonder about God? He is infinite, and omnipresent (present in past, present and future at the same time). All too often we try to put God in a box in an effort to understand him. Of course we will never be able to do that, our human brains are just not capable of that. So the question of where God came from? My answer is this: I'll ask him when I get to Heaven, then I'll let you know. =)

Big Bang Theory: I believe in it...God said BANG! And it happened.

Time: Don't know much in that arena except this...I'm hungry, so its time to eat. The elephant sat on the bench, so its time to get a new bench..etc.

Reincarnation: Uh...no. Sorry, there is nothing on this Earth that even remotely backs up that theory. Flashbacks and past memories=too much Nyquill before bed time. Not to mention as a Believer there is no mention of this in the Bible whatsoever. It's a silly idea...

On another note, next week I will be attending a seminar that completely destroys the evolution theory. It will prove that the Earth is Thousands...not Billions of years old. This is information that is just now being released to the public. I will be happy to take on any of the evolutionists questions...I promise I'll have an answer to all your questions by Sunday.

Peace!

~Tyler

-- August 9, 2006 9:17 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Sara wrote:

"In answer to a law of our physical universe which we have found to be universal, you postulate other universes where these laws do not exist to substantiate what is IMPOSSIBLE in our universe. Does that not strain plausibility?"

Sorry, that last Anon post was me, forgot the name. And yes Sara you continue to prove my point.....human arrogance. We think we have it all figured out. The fact of the matter is that we postulate that our laws extend beyond our local boundaries. To say we know how our laws act "out there" with one hundred percent certainty is absolutely ridiculous. To say we can observe all phenomena objectively and reconstruct an accurate picture is even more ludicrous given the facts about our sensory capabilites.

My entire point is that your theory of "no life from non-life" extends from laws created to explain local phenomon. If you had a solid scientific background, we wouldn't be having this discussion. One must always entertain the possibility that mankind has missed a part of the equation. Get back to me when GUT is fully explained or refuted (Grand Unified Theory). The strong force, weak force, EM and gravitation are considered straightforward phenomena......yet we can't get it straight.

Sara, you continue to deal in absolutes. Until mankind knows everything about everything, I just don't see how you can make those assumptions....impossible this, scientific fact that. Unfortunately though, in order to show causality in your argument, it's the only recourse you have. Not good footing at all.

-- August 9, 2006 10:07 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Did I hear a Dinar pegging on the horizon soon? Where do I go for cheaper prices? Peeps charging around 900 for a mil now....damm.

-- August 9, 2006 10:08 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Tyler:
Reincarnation no sillier than Christianity, Islam or any other afterlife concept..
Each is given its value by the viewer and how they view it...so to discredit one in order to validate the other is folly....and borders on the premise that mankind has used to create many wars..."My belief is superior to your belief...My God is Bigger than your God..My Path is the only way back to the creator"

I believe there are many paths back to the creator...Instead I say to you...
My path is true to me...you are not required to believe or follow my path...please choose the path that appears to be true to you and follow it, for that will be the right path for you at this stage of your soul development..

-- August 9, 2006 10:51 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Steve:

You can still go to www.safedinar.com. Their price is $810.00 for a million.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 9, 2006 11:29 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Prospects of Militias disbanding over time are good says Commander of US Forces in Iraq
Iraq and Arab pride
Published August 9, 2006

"I believe that the sectarian violence is probably as bad as I've seen it, in Baghdad in particular," Army Gen. John Abizaid, the commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East and chief of the U.S. Central Command, told the Senate Armed Services Committee. "And that if not stopped, it is possible that Iraq could move toward civil war."

You might have missed, though, what else Abizaid had to say. "Despite the many challenges, progress does continue to be made in Iraq and I am confident that there are still many more people in Iraq trying to hold the country together than there are trying to tear it apart," he said. He asserted that "the prospects of the militias over time disbanding are good."

And: "I believe the Iraqis are capable of succeeding. I believe they do want to succeed. I believe they are honorable people who want to live a better life and have security for their children just like we do."

As Abizaid noted, the security situation has morphed from a Sunni insurgency to sectarian violence, as "Al Qaeda terrorists, insurgents and militants compete to plunge the country into civil war." In a bid to turn the momentum, the U.S. is sending more troops into Baghdad.

Is Iraq a lost cause?

No. It is not, and more important, it cannot be.

Abandoning Iraq to the merciless militias and terrorists is not a strategy. U.S. forces that left tomorrow would be back soon, under even worse circumstances. An Iraq torn apart by civil war, a failed state, would be a homeland for terrorists worldwide, much as Afghanistan was.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0608090030aug09,0,6629254.story?coll=chi-newsopinion-hed

-- August 9, 2006 11:35 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Steve;

You said: "Sara, you continue to deal in absolutes. Until mankind knows everything about everything, I just don't see how you can make those assumptions....impossible this, scientific fact that.."

In one way I agree. There are, according to String Theory, many dimensional planes and they may not have the same laws of physics that ours have or be subject to our laws. However, to look at the phenomena we have in the universe and make sense of what we see there, we have adopted SCIENCE and scientific FACT, not philosophy. If you wish to debate if God can create something so heavy He cannot lift it, we can do so, but it isn't in the real material universe. Staying with "absolutes" or the laws and facts of science keeps us grounded within the realm of reality and probability. And when you say that if we go to the moon, sun, or mars.. or out of the Milky Way.. we can expect the Universal Laws we see present to cease to exist, I do think you are straining scientific validity. To postulate the possiblity I do see, but to assert it as viable fact when it is unverifiable is to make your philosophy science. I thought modern mankind stopped doing that when they stopped thinking Thor (the God of Thunder) was shooting lightning bolts and adopted scientific and verifiable fact as the indisputed final arbiter and guard of known and accepted truth.

You ridicule "scientific fact that".. as though logic and scientific findings are implausible. You are acting as though "dealing in absolutes" is a crime - not a long fought for virtue that took mankind out of a lot of superstition and allowed him to stay grounded in the world of verifiable fact. Will you take us back to the time before the Laws of Gravity, Motion, and Thermodynamics? To a time before we understood and could make scientific observations with assurance that we were dealing with the truth? By kicking out the foundation of science from under our feet and postulating something ELSE to explain the universe which we have not yet discovered you make your philosophy to stand, but take something valuable from the conversation - verifiable fact and reality. If we don't go by that which we verify as real.. maybe giant purple aliens on pogo sticks made us..?? Oh.. don't tell me that is wrong, you deal too much in scientific fact and absolutes.. ??

I am not attacking you and just used that for illustration, Steve.. but, do you see what I am getting at? Can we stay within the known universe and its laws and not postulate fairy tale thinking to support your philosophical bent? The scientific fact stands.. according to the laws of proabability non-life cannot create life. However improbable, that means that something else did. Attacking that FACT because you don't like the conclusion it leads toward is not logical, now, is it? Kind of like the flat earth proponents.. they didn't like where the round earth proponents were going. But should we change the scientific and verifiable fact to make you happy? Should we admit that MAYBE the world is flat to make you feel good? Or will you allow the truth to stand even if it makes you uncomfortable?

Christianity does not attract its followers by being charming, but by being the Truth. It stands like these facts and merely quietly states the Truth for men to decide if they will accept or reject it. As Carl said, you are free to believe what you wish. Speaking politely, maybe the earth really IS flat, Thor is the author of thunder and life happened spontaneously from non-life... does it make you feel better that I said it? The only problem I see is that now you are happy, but you are probably not working according to fact or reality. All I did was aid you to continue to deceive yourself.. is that what we are supposed to do? Maybe the unwillingness to help deception along is why Christianity can appear to some to be irritating, arrogant or prideful.

Sara.

-- August 9, 2006 12:12 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Hopefully this is a false alarm..
but I thought it worth mentioning to keep your eyes open in case you see anyone doing anything suspicious near you or your loved ones.

Sara.

===
Egyptian students disappear in U.S.
FBI hunting 11 exchange students who didn't show up at school
Wednesday, August 9, 2006 Posted: 0207 GMT (1007 HKT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Immigration agents and the FBI are looking for 11 Egyptian students who entered the United States on valid student visas, then failed to show up at a university in Montana, authorities said.

The FBI on Saturday issued a nationwide alert to law enforcement agencies. Included were the students' names, ages, passport numbers and photographs.

"At the present time there are no known associations to any terrorist groups. Approach with caution," the lookout bulletin states.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/08/08/egyptian.students/index.html

-- August 9, 2006 1:50 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Steve;

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
- Albert Einstein
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/alberteins133991.html

Or maybe expecting different results somewhere else in the universe?
Like going to Hawaii and thinking that because it is far away from here the laws of gravity and motion will not apply?

Sara.

-- August 9, 2006 2:22 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Sara said:

Though the LOVE of money is the root of all evil, MONEY IS NOT EVIL IN ITSELF. (Another post I might take up the point of proving the Love of money being the root of all evil - even adultery, which isn't too hard to do.. but it is hard to address every point at once so let's set that aside for a minute and let me get to this point first - money is not evil in itself.) King Solomon was the richest person on the earth at one time, and he is not called ungodly for it. King David was no sluff as far as riches were concerned, either... and according to the Bible he was also "a man after God's own heart" (Acts 13:22). Hardly the accolade of a wicked, greedy and ungodly man.

Money, even having a lot of it, is not evil.
END OF QUOTE

This is one of the few bits of the bible I do remember:

...I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. Matthew 19:24.

The parallel versions appear in Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:24-25 and Luke 18:24-25

It would appear that the love of money will make it difficult for you pass to your preffered destination. Then again, if you take the literal definition, it does not mention about rich women.... Hmmm.

-- August 9, 2006 2:38 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Sara wrote:

"Can we stay within the known universe and its laws and not postulate fairy tale thinking to support your philosophical bent?"

Sure..........and professing that there is an almighty "entity" out there is any different? Considering your proofs are rooted in the ABSOLUTE truths of science, this is quite a leap of faith from my viewpoint (no pun intended). I merely extend the boundary and offer the suggestion that perhaps science cannot explain something other than just god. Perhaps it can't explain the fact that a particle can exist in the same place at the same time, or some other phenomenon in the universe which we have yet to even observe. You simply cannot apply what man has learned so far and say "These rules explain existence." It don't work.

Funny thing about your quote. You do acknowledge my point and yet don't want to admit it. Focus on the first part.....

"Can we stay within the known universe and it's laws......."

Here is where you can deal in your absolutes. This is not my argument at all. The part you refuse to acknowledge is how infinitesimal the known universe is. We know VERY little about the universe as a whole. Chew on it for a bit.

Setp outside of that box as I have been urging you and perhaps you can see my point more clearly. What about all of those unknowns eh? Just think........what if there IS something we don't know?

Nah, can't be...... we are human after all.

-- August 9, 2006 3:34 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Sorry, I just HAVE to throw this in:

Sara wrote:
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
- Albert Einstein

Or maybe expecting different results somewhere else in the universe?
Like going to Hawaii and thinking that because it is far away from here the laws of gravity and motion will not apply?"

Nah....... but Mt Everest is far away, and gravity is not quite the same there.......

-- August 9, 2006 3:38 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

I just spoke to RBS (Royal Bank of Scotland) and they recommended a company by the name of Choice Money located inside the Empire State building for domestic Dinar transactions. Has anyone had any dealing with this company before? I can post the number later if anyone is interested.

Sara,

Let me take this opportunity to say that I am enjoying our conversation quite a bit. I like entertaing others veiwpoints. None of my statements should be taken personally or out of context. I never personally attack anyone. Cheers!!!

-- August 9, 2006 3:48 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

LOL.. cute about the rich women, Nelly B.. I hadn't thought of that one.

As for the one about it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to be saved.. literally, when have you ever seen this take place? How many camels have you seen go through the eye of a needle? Hmmm..

I think he was referring to the impossibility of people getting to heaven apart from an act of God because the very next verses say:

Mat 19:25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?"
Mat 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

I think He was just illustrating that salvation is from God and rich men cannot buy their way into it by doing good works with their money. (Note He said.. "with men this is impossible" not unlikely nor rare, but IMPOSSIBLE.) I think you see that with the rich.. they can do so much with the money they have, they think they can buy their way into heaven. But God says it is not so, but it must be a work from God - His reaching down to men, not men achieving salvation by doing good things and getting a handle of obligation on the Almighty. There is one Savior, and it isn't puny man:

Isa 45:21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.

God calls Himself the Savior - if someone is to be Saved, it must be done by the Savior Himself - not by men.. "with God all things are possible".

Sara.

-- August 9, 2006 3:50 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Wow! At what point did this room transfer from a Dinar discussion to a bible beaters convention?! Get back on target.

-- August 9, 2006 3:50 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Taylor:
The board is on target...this is what has made this board last longer than any that I know of...it is open to many topics other than dinar...especially when nothing is really going on with the dinar at this time....If you are a mule skinner, then talk about skinning a mule...someone may be able to give ya a better technique...
My point is this...I usually find most post I read on this board actually enlightens my soul...whether I agree with them or not...at least the writer has made me think about the subject.

If the subject being discussed does not interest you....simply ignore it...thats what I do...keep reviewing the board, I am sure you will find a subject very quickly that will.

Good reading....

-- August 9, 2006 4:02 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

OK, TAYLOR, don't get your shorts in an uproar.. it was just fun discussion.. you are free to add any Dinar discussion you wish to.. the news is a bit thin on new Dinar news.. we are just passing the time.

No offense taken, Steve. Glad to have discussion with you and no personal offence is meant by my remarks, either. :)

You did see my nod to String Theory.. where the other dimensions may indeed intersect this one and cause phenomena which appears to us as supernatural. However, they work by suspending the laws of this dimensional plane, not by eradicating them. It is like your illustration of Mount Everest.. though gravity is somewhat different there, the law of gravity is not made void but other laws supercede it. Same with picking up a book off the table, you just defied the law of gravity, but you did so by using an opposing law or greater force. God has employed these other laws very well. In our dimension, matter is not created nor destroyed. I submit that there is a dimension from which matter was once created and will be destroyed.

Also, remember that Jesus walked on water. That miracle suspended the normal buoyancy laws as well as weight and gravity.. not hard for God to do, but pretty tricky for us mere humans when we are subject to a universe where matter is not being created nor destroyed.

I do not say exceptions to the rules do not exist, only that the Laws we have observed and proven should as a rule be seen as universal. And statistical probability is not something which appears to me to have exceptions to it anywhere in the known universe. Except perhaps by an act of God? Do your chances of winning the lotto change when you move to Alpha Centuri? :)

Sara.

-- August 9, 2006 4:12 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Sara said:

God owns EVERYTHING so HE is wealthy, RICH, right?
Incidentally, God claims to own YOU, you know.. you are one of the - "all they who dwell in it".
YOU are His possession, owned by Him, created by Him.. Interesting to think of, isn't it?
END OF QUOTE

I do not believe in God, therefore I do not believe he can own me. If indeed he exists and therefore he owns me, I challenge him to spend or sell, or dispense of me!

God is but a figment of mans imagination, therefore we are his creators. We own God Ok, who wants to buy a God? any takers... Sara?

-- August 9, 2006 4:30 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Sara Said:
I believe all of life was Created. In scientific fact, you cannot take non-life and create life. It is unprovable. It is a fantasy, a lie.. a figment of the imagination that man could somehow create himself out of nothing. The numerical chance of mankind having arisen from non-life by random chance is far less than a monkey playing at hitting the keys on a typewriter and happening to put out the Webster's Dictionary. In other words, too remote for even you to contemplate. The chances of life happening by chance are zero.. actually..

It was Dr. Emile Borel who first formulated the basic Law of Probability which states that the occurrence of an event where the chances are beyond 1 chance in 1050(the 200th power is used for scientific calculations), is an event which we can state with certainty will never happen, regardless of the time allotted or how many opportunities could exist for the event to take place.(Emile Borel, Probabilities and Life, Dover 1962, chapters 1-3)
The mathematical probability of a single living cell arising spontaneously has been calculated over and over again by evolutionary scientists and they have been unable to come up with a figure which falls under Borel's upper limit!
END OF QUOTE

Firstly, It is unprovable; It is a fantasy, a lie.. that God exists. There is no scientific evidence that God exists. There is testimony, there are witnesses, but this is mere evidence, not proof. Evidence can be fabricated, if someone is inclinded to do so.

I agree that the chance of life being spontaneously created from non-life is certainly remote and maybe does not even fall within Borel's law. However, Borel's law is fundamentally flawed if he said that even the remotist chance of an occurrence could not happen, even if given unlimited time and chances to happen.

This is pure logic and maths to dispel and does not take a genius to compute.

For example if the chance of an occurence happening is 1 in 2, by average it will happen once every 2 chances... scale that up...

If the chance of an occurence happening is 1 in 1050 to the 200th power(the 200th power is used for scientific calculations)it logically follows that the occurence will happen once, not never, in 1050 to the 200th power.

If the chance is less than that, scale the time and opportunities of the occurence up accordingly and logic dictates, that it MUST happen... eventually.

If you could put this many sides (chances) on a dice without it being round, the chance of occurence would happen rarely, but the chance is still there, however remote. It has to land on this side... Eventually

The universe is a big place. The part of the universe that we are aware of and can even detect has billions upon billions... of stars, planets and moons. Where does the universe end? Is it infinite. How can it not be infinite? If there is an end, how can there be nothing beyond the end? If the universe is infinite, then the potential conditions for occurences to create life are infinite. Add infinite time and logic dictates that life will be created... eventually.

Do I believe on life in other places in the universe? I think there either is already, somewhere, or will be at some point in time.

Do I believe in UFO's or that aliens have visited earth? Personally, no. I think people want to believe that they have. I think the odds of aliens evolving to intergalictic levels and then travelling to Earth in the short time earth has been here are too remote, but given the infinity of time and infinity of chances of life occuring, I believe life forms from two different sources have met or will meet... eventually. Will man ever meet aliens?... quite possibly not, due to the limited time that man may remain in this universe. Even at our stage in evolution, we are far beyond the possibility of extinction. All it would take is one big asteroid and.... POOOF!! Maybe some small bacteria or microbes would survive for long enough for the dust to settle, maybe not...

How is life created? To my mind it has to be in the simplest of forms to stand any chance of being formed.(Logic and the principles of evolution dictate that a complex creatures like a horse, a fish or tree could not be spontaneously created)In the life-forms known to us, it would also need the introduction of electricity in some form... static?... a lightning strike?...

From there, I can clearly see a slow, gradual path of change; nature testing and trying new modifications to the basic design... evolution if you will.

I don't see how anybody in this day and age can deny the existance of evolution, given all of the evidence that exists. Fossils, genetics, selective breeding etc.

Look at the modern day dog... even the chiwawa has decended from the wolf at an accelerated rate by selective breeding (genetics) in a mere 10,000 years.

-- August 9, 2006 4:32 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Other great mysteries solved... The chicken or the egg... which came first?

Study of fossils has revealed that birds have decended from featherd dinosaurs... dinosaurs which laid eggs...

Add evoulution and time and you have chickens which lay eggs.

The chicken evolved from the egg of a dinosaur.

-- August 9, 2006 4:34 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Whoha, gone for a short time and this site have exploded in spiritual ponderings.

Let me just tell you all, you are all wrong and I'm right.

Steve,
Choice Money....never heard of them, ok if you can dig up something, I'm all ear.

Re Possible RV next week on CNN World News, did anyone happen to catch it?

Sara,
Time for a hug.. HUUUUUUUUUUG.

Nellie,

Never got an answer since some time ago, You'r not "Little Nellie" from Rocky Horror, are you? I remeber that caracter so well, while tossing rice , toasts, shitpater, and squirting water on the show. Did the Rocky Horror ever take off in the UK, the same way it did here in the US? I dont believe the Brittish humour would be the same as the US. Me I love the Python, Fawlty Towers, and the whole stick.

-"I would like to buy a Fish Licence".
-"You mean a Fishing licence?"
-"No a Fish Licence."
-You dont need a Licence to own a fish".
-"Ofcourse you do, you have to have a dog and a cat licence, don't you?"
-"There is no such thing as a Cat Licence".
-"No? What do you call this then?"
-" That is a Dog Licence , with the word Dog crossed over, and on top of it, with a crayon, is the word CAT written."

Only in the UK, I love it. Over here you get a laugh when fifty police cars pile up or someone get a pie in the face.

-- August 9, 2006 5:19 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Maybe God created the layers of sediments 4000 years ago and put the Dinosaurs in there as a joke.

-- August 9, 2006 5:30 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Maybe you created the universe, played in it so long that you forgot that you created it, and dont want to take responsibility for the mess no more, and say that God created it.

-- August 9, 2006 5:32 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Maybe it's all a dream, we're actually just magnetic ink in a super pjuter.

-- August 9, 2006 5:33 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Maybe I should shut up.

-- August 9, 2006 5:34 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Surprisingly, Joseph Libermann lost the Connecticut Democratic primary because he supported the war in Iraq. Could his loss be a precursor to the Republicans loosing control of the House of Representatives?

What about 2008? I like a Newt Gingrich and Rudolph Giuliani ticket for the GOP. In the current Republican party, the former Speaker of the House seems to have the best political mind. Any other thoughts about Newt for President?

George W. Bush has basically two years left in his term. What are the odds that Iraq can become stable and experience significant economic growth (increase its oil output)in the next two years?

In the short term, what happens in Iraq and in the mid term elections will effect the value of the Dinar. In the long term, the 2008 Presidential election will dictate future Iraqi policy.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 9, 2006 5:35 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Nelly!
To me I have no problem with the fact you do not believe in a "GOD" as you put it...you have the freedom to believe as you wish, and I encourage you to do so.
Now! for me I see proof everyday there is a creator. I just find the probability of all of the different,various animals,trees,plants and human beings to just have happen by chance is extremely remote. In my opinion the meer fact that you and I even exist is proof within
itself.
Now! the real question is not that we exist but why do you and I exist? Now! That is where the discussions can reach deep....with the final answer being...no living mortal really knows for certain until they pass from this life.
There is one thing for sure...no one gets out this world alive...

From your post, I find you seem to be a very spiritual person in regards to treating everyone like you would like to be treated, you have a good sense of fairness, and feel offended when someone attemps to insult your intellegence.
Some look at Jesus as a God or Savior, others look at him as a great teacher of how man should treat his fellow world traveler...some just another joe who had some very luck. I am sure that he would probably be amazed at some of the sayings that has been attributed to him over the centuries...but no one that I know of disputes he existed...the dispute comes with who he was and what happen to him after his execution.
In my opinion, god does not own you...as you stated...in my opinion you are part of God, just as you are part of your earthly father and mother....therefore just because you are part of something, does that make you any less than the whole? You have to answer that for yourself..

Now to some... they want to place a gender or sex with their concept of god or godess...some just say we were created from energy, therefore we ourselves are just energy... and what is energy but light...I do know that our body has a energy field or light around it, which some refer as to an aura...that aura does have different colors depending on your mood. So! there is probably some truth to that theory...we do know that when an individual dies, that the aura or energy field of light is no longer there. Some say that is proof that you are not your body, nor your mind, you're more than either...which some refer to as the soul.

So! to say that God is a figment of man's imagination is stating something as a certainty, and I really don't believe you or I either one have that qualification to make that type of statement. It would probably be better stated as, it is my belief that god is created from man's imagination. For just as strongly as you believe in your belief concept, Sara believes just as strongly in hers. Personally, I think both of you have chosen the path that is right for each of you, taking into consideration the stage of your soul development...but then again...I guess I just added a third belief here...

-- August 9, 2006 5:41 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

I like Rogers assessment.....

We should open up a resort and sell pink elephants out of the trunk of our car.......

Sara said:

"Do your chances of winning the lotto change when you move to Alpha Centuri? :)"

Again showing my point. Don't tell me for a second that you can answer that question "with absolute certainty". Unless you can, your argument is void. End of story.

Sara said:

"Also, remember that Jesus walked on water. That miracle suspended the normal buoyancy laws as well as weight and gravity.."

Marijuana has been around for a long time..........hehe

-- August 9, 2006 6:30 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

TAYLOR wrote:

Wow! At what point did this room transfer from a Dinar discussion to a bible beaters convention?! Get back on target.
END OF QUOTE

Sorry Taylor... I asked if we could keep to dinars instead of religion... Kinda backfired on me. LOL. I hope you haven't just prolonged it some more, but things are just getting interesting.

Dinars? ...come before puddings don't they?

My take on the RV.

1) It may not happen at all. Just a launch on FX for trading, then gradual rise. It CAN'T go down, unless something MAJOR happens, like Iran invades Iraq or something daft.

2) Low RV (up to 5c at best, probably nearer .001c) then hopefully a rise over months or years.

I see the number of dinars in circulation as being the main restriction for a higher RV. The Iraqi's are going to need to shift a shed load of oil and other exports before 6 trillion dinars can be worth $1 a piece.

Is something in the wind?

I see it as a very good time for a RV, if it is going to happen. Makes sense to do it before dinars are traded on the FX. International trading laws seem to be near completion.

-- August 9, 2006 6:47 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Ya! But....
Look at the positive side of all this debating...it allows us to excercise our fingers

-- August 9, 2006 7:01 PM ∞

---

terrance wrote:

Nelly,

You wrote -"I do not believe in God, therefore I do not believe he can own me. If indeed he exists and therefore he owns me, I challenge him to spend or sell, or dispense of me!

God is but a figment of mans imagination, therefore we are his creators. We own God Ok, who wants to buy a God? any takers..."

What caused you to be bitter toward the thought of God? I ask because so very few people are truly Athiests.

Many times people who hold your view have had a painful past emotionally or physically. Is that you?

Please realize that as an Athiest you have to borrow the Christian worldview in order to hold onto your Athiestic worldview. You are using faith in something that is foundational to your Athiesm. That something which you cannot touch, observe, measure, or feel is the Laws of Logic. Unless of course you believe the Laws of Logic are not intrinsic, but rather exist by convention, in which case nothing you know is a certainty.....nothing.

The issue about our existence is not about whether a monkey has enough time to type the dictionary. Given enough time a monkey could type every book ever written. But would it mean anything. However, to a person in China who doesn't know English, a monkey could type the 3 letters "CAT" and they would have no meaning to that person. "CAT" has no meaning unless we decide by convention beforehand that it is to mean a furry little 4 legged feline.

So, one of the real issues is how do I account for the information, its meaning, and the languange encoded within all life. That language written in the chemical alphabet called nucleotides, makes up every strand of DNA and RNA. And it had to be put there by an outside source....it cannot evolve. Just as you understand this blog site coded in "english" because we have predecided by convention what this code is and what is all means, so too all life is encoded. That information brings us all to the obvious conclusion we all knew from within anyway. There is a Designer and purpose to life.

Ask yourself - why is it all men and women seek purpose in life? Why does this grand question permeate all people "What is the purpose of life?" If there is no purpose in life this question wouldn't come up in the first place, just like a creature with no eyes, born and living on a pitch dark planet would never ask the question "Why is it dark here?"

We are "prewired" to know our purpose here. That is why clergy, scientists, and all people pursue questions of our origin. Your were created for some unfathomable, truly awesome reasons. And the reality of it all is that:

You are NOT and accident!

You were created for a purpose!

Someone wants YOUR love!

He LOVES you so much he thought of you as someone to die for!

Who wouldn't want a friend like that?

Surfs up on the West Coast - keep the pigs on ice for the roast guys - it may be a little while for the NID train to start down the tracks.

T-

-- August 9, 2006 7:14 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Roger wrote:

Nellie,

Never got an answer since some time ago, You'r not "Little Nellie" from Rocky Horror, are you? I remeber that caracter so well, while tossing rice , toasts, shitpater, and squirting water on the show. Did the Rocky Horror ever take off in the UK, the same way it did here in the US? I dont believe the Brittish humour would be the same as the US. Me I love the Python, Fawlty Towers, and the whole stick.

Na, Nellie is just a nickname. I think the Rocky Horror show was around when I was a kid, but I don't think I was ever up to watch it then.

I have to agree with your appreciation of British humour though. We have a lot of imported U.S. tv and films but the best commedy (in my opinion - better get that in there unless someone quotes me as stating a fact) comes from this side of the pond. Have you also seen Mr Bean (Rowan atkinson) and Blackadder? ('Atkinson and Tony Robinson) One of the funniest standup commediens I have ever heard comes from the westcountry, where I live.. Bill Bailey. He is just astoundingly funny IMO.

Roger wrote:

Maybe God created the layers of sediments 4000 years ago and put the Dinosaurs in there as a joke.

P.S. Since when were dinosaurs around 4000 years ago?

Love your posts, Roger.

Carl said:
So! to say that God is a figment of man's imagination is stating something as a certainty, and I really don't believe you or I either one have that qualification to make that type of statement. It would probably be better stated as, it is my belief that god is created from man's imagination. For just as strongly as you believe in your belief concept, Sara believes just as strongly in hers. Personally, I think both of you have chosen the path that is right for each of you, taking into consideration the stage of your soul development...but then again...I guess I just added a third belief here...
END OF QUOTE

Ok, yeah I guess that is opinion, but seems to me, 'God' is whatever anybody decides it is, whatever they choose for it to be, that fits their way of thinking. Surely then it is ones own awareness that creates these concepts and chooses the rules and boundaries to which they should govern themselves? the concept of god or gods has evolved (there is that word again) over hundreds and thousands of years, as people have changed their perception of reality and their surroundings.

I digress a little more, but I see animals as having an awareness, at least of their surroundings, of danger, of smells, sounds etc. I this what people here would define as awareness? Is this different to spiritual awareness? I don't see that as being the same, because I can't imagine a rabbit or a fish contemplating what faith to follow or who its god should be.

-- August 9, 2006 7:26 PM ∞

---

Valerio wrote:

Amen Carl
That fact that we exist is proof in itself, and further proof is the fact that we have the ability to love.

Let me ask all the non believers. If you were down by the river, out in the great outdoors around 2000 years ago doing some fishing , washing your sandles, or maybe getting some stink off, and then suddenly a voice from heaven announces, " this is My beloved Son in whom I'm well pleased", would this change your life? I believe a man can recognize a voice from heaven. There were no PA's in those days, and those present heard it, and it changed their lives. Put yourself in that environment, and imagine the power of that.
Also let me ask; Of Jesus, what thing, what word, what action, what deed, what teaching, was wrong or harmfull in any way? I say again, there was no fault found in him. Who else could a man believe in?

Jesus said we will see the sign of his return in the stars, and maybe Nelly's not far off when he talked about the big astroid... and poof. II peter says, the earth, the firmament, and everything therein will melt with a fervant heat.
Flesh will not survive this event, and in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we will all be changed. Many of our uncertanties will be cleared up at moment.

Aound a penny makes sense to me. That gives there coinage a quarter, and a dollar!

-- August 9, 2006 8:31 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Nellie!
I loved your response to me....you are totally correct in my way of thinking...I will explain my view point later...

-- August 9, 2006 8:46 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Nellie,

No, I dont mean that Dinosaurs was around 4000 years ago, they died out aroubnd 65 mill yeras ago, I just had an imaginary idea that only 4000 years ago, God created the earth, and did a lot of earth layers that logically will seem to be millions of years old, and in those layers he tossed Dinosaurbones, in what would logically seem be older than 65 mil years ago, as a joke.

Mr Bean, oh yes, seem him painting his room with a gallon of paint and a stick of dynamite in it, to make it go quicker.

Unfortunately when he lit the fuse, the phone rang, and as he went back and picked up, the concoction went off, resulting in his Hiroshima type shadow on the wall.

Do you know this one?

-" I would like to inquire about the parrot I bought in this store some time ago"
-"Oh yes the Norwegian blue, wonderful plymage"
-"Well, its dead."
-"No it's not, it's just sleeping".

-- August 9, 2006 8:53 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

And when God created an image of himself, he just duplicated himself and we suddenly have two Gods.

-- August 9, 2006 8:54 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Imagine a game, where there is one God and nothing else, the he create heaven and earth.

Then he createen image of himself, and thus we have two exactly identical beings, two Gods.

Imagine the argument when they are trying to blame the other one on who created this mess.

-- August 9, 2006 8:57 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Sems thats what were doing

-- August 9, 2006 9:10 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

If one God can create an image of himself, logic tells me he doesnt have to stop with one image, he can create as manu images he wants, and any created image if himself would therefore have exactly the same ability to create any number of images of themself.

If a God can duplicate himsdelf in to as many copies as he like, and all the copies are the same as himself, then himself would be of no more or no less importance than any other copy.

I wonder if they figured out how to reverse the process, make all the Gods come back into one again?

-- August 9, 2006 9:17 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Blame it on God, he did it.

-- August 9, 2006 9:19 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

All,

Before reading the below you should abide by the following quotation:

LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA VOI CH’ INTRATE - DANTE
(Abandon all hope, ye who enter here!)

As a confirmed Agnostic (read the definition please), and never an Atheist, I offer the observations and statements of a few, with far more intelligence and wit then I, concerning their views on religion, god, and science:

Religion is induced insanity. – Madalyn Murray O’Hair

Formerly, when religion was strong and science weak, men mistook magic for medicine; now, when science is strong and religion weak, men mistake medicine for magic. – Thomas Szasz

Science without religion is lame, religion with science is blind. - Albert Einstein

Thank God, I am still an atheist. – Luis Bunuel

There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact. – Mark Twain

Unlike Christianity, which preached a peace that it never achieved, Islam unashamedly came with a sword. – Steven Runciman

Science has proof without certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof. – Ashley Montague

Christianity might be a good thing if anyone ever tried it. – George Bernard Shaw

Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep insights can be winnowed from deep nonsense. – Carl Sagan

A Christian is one who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin. – Ambrose Bierce

Acceptance without proof is the fundamental characteristic of Western religion, rejection without proof is the fundamental characteristic of Western religion. – Gary Zukav

If god did not exist, it would have been necessary to invent him. – Voltaire

Science may have found a cure for most evils; but it has found no remedy for the worst of them all – apathy of human beings. – Helen Keller

If you talk to god, it is called praying; if God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. – Thomas Szasz

There are two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance. - Hippocrates

To pray is to ask that the laws of the universe be annulled on behalf of a single practitioner confessedly unworthy. – Ambrose Bierce

The advantage of emotions is that they lead us astray, and the advantage’s of science is that it is not emotional. – Oscan Wilde

Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. – Napoleon Bonaparte

Philosophers say a great deal about what is absolutely necessary for science, it is always, so far as one can see, rather naïve, and probably wrong. – Richard Reynman

I don’t believe in God because I don’t believe in Mother Goose. – Clarence Darrow

It is inconceivable that the whole Universe was merely created for us who live in this third-rate planet of a third-rate sun. - Alfred Lord Tennyson

And my favorite Quote of all times:

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. – Albert Einstein

Now that I have offended everyone and their belief system/feelings, I am now ready to accept the judgment of all. Let the rotten egg and vegetable throwing commence.

Lance

-- August 10, 2006 1:53 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

All,

The IMF has finally published it's Article IV report. Link below:

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/longres.cfm?sk=19539.0

-- August 10, 2006 2:24 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Hurray it's coming!!! While all of you were sleeping I have spent the last several hours reading the IMF SBA (Stand By Agreement). It figures that out of the 53 some pages, what we are looking for is on the last page and the second to last paragraph. Read it and weep all you nay-sayers and projectors of doom. It may not be as fast or as much as we hope but it should happen. Below is that statement by Shakour Shaalan Executive Director for Iraq:

Statement by Shakour Shaalan, Executive Director for Iraq
August 2, 2006

8. The reduction of shortages following from the liberalization of gasoline import is expected to contribute to lower inflation, as increasing black market gasoline prices have a major impact on the cost of living indices. The high and increasing rate of inflation, whose dynamics is still quite uncertain as the staff reports, is a key issue for the government. It aims at containing it through structural policies aimed at reducing shortages and monetary policy tightening. Indeed the Central Bank of Iraq (CBI), faced with a surging inflation rate has raised the policy rates by two percentage points to 10 percent at the beginning of July, and by another two percentage points more recently, in an effort to slow the inflationary cycle. While the monetary transmission channel is relatively weak, the CBI agrees with staff that strong moves in interest rate will signal the clear determination of the monetary authorities to control inflation dynamics and prevent the consolidation of inflationary expectations. Furthermore, the authorities aim to strengthen the effectiveness of monetary policy through linking deposit rates to the policy rates in the future. Finally, the CBI will consider the possibility of a gradual appreciation of the Iraqi dinar if needed, which could have a positive effect on both inflation and the process of dedollarization.

-- August 10, 2006 5:10 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Ok, now that I have caught my breath, let’s pick this apart.

1. Inflation stands at 52%
2. They have already tightened their monetary policy increasing their lending rates by two percentage points. Much like our Federal Reserve has increased rates to keep inflation lower. But at 52% what else is left? You can’t raise your interest rates that fast or much. You can only lower inflation by one other means, if available, and that would be appreciation in the value of the Dinar.
3. “CBI will consider” I think that this is already decided. Zero Lop is dead and not many other choices.
4. “Gradual appreciation”? How much and how fast? Open market (Float), or PEG to whatever they decide to PEG too. This is the one that will continue to keep us up nights until something happens.
5. “Process of dedollarization” two possible meanings behind this; 1.) Making the IQD more valuable and thus taking away any dollar market on the street. 2.) Un-Pegging the IQD from the dollar. Or both.

Other interesting things out of the overall report. Some are real killers to rumors that have been floating around for years. I always thought the 6 Trillion IQD was wrong.

How many IQD are out there on the street, in circulation: 9.6 Trillion IQD (this includes our investments).

IQD held by the CBI: 14.9 Trillion IQD

Foreign Exchange Assets in CBI Vaults: 17.3 Trillion IQD (not in dinars)
“ “ in Gold: 162 Billion IQD
“ “ other assets: 18.3 Trillion IQD (not in dinars)
“ “ SDR Account: 988 Billion IQD

In other words they have more money then we thought with only 61% of the IQD’s in circulation. Would make me guess that much of what is being held by the CBI, is lower denomination notes not in circulation. Otherwise it doesn’t make much sense to have this much in the vault.

Ok, someone tell me that I am reading this all wrong and I need new glasses.

-- August 10, 2006 5:57 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Lance:
Good Post!...Excellent research on the IMF SBA
Oh! by the way...your religion difinition quotes was a solid hit on the world's view of religion over the centuries....
Good job

-- August 10, 2006 7:11 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Lance....

I think your glasses are working just fine. Thanks for digesting and summarizing Article lV for the rest of us!

-- August 10, 2006 8:27 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Carl - One of the early christian leaders was hearing voices coming from a burning bush

Lance - If you talk to god, it is called praying; if God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. – Thomas Szasz

Also - Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. – Napoleon Bonaparte

And we all know how peaceful and quiet Napoleon was..

Lance - From the IMF document you read: "Finally, the CBI will consider the possibility of a gradual appreciation of the Iraqi dinar if needed, which could have a positive effect on both inflation and the process of dedollarization."

AWESOME FIND!!! :)

I also agree with your speculation about the lower denominational bills. Well reasoned. :)

Sara.

-- August 10, 2006 9:59 AM ∞

---

Terri wrote:

Question: Has the investment law passed the third reading yet? Just wondering?

-- August 10, 2006 10:36 AM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Lance;

Great stuff on the IQD.... I got one question for the whole gang though....

By what I am seeing, the "amount in circulation" and "amount held by the CBI"... confuses me. Would I be right to assume that the amount held by the CBI, includes the amount in circulation? -or- Are those numbers free standing??? so; there is a total amount of 14.5 Trillion IQD printed?

Thoughts??? ... I think so!

I also knew that 6 Trillion was way low... see, "time did tell!".

As for the rest of this story.... again... "Time will tell!"

Outlaw

-- August 10, 2006 10:38 AM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Hmmm...currently trading at 1539.77/1, IQD/USD. Has it ever been this low?

http://www.oanda.com/convert/classic

Thoughts?

~Tyler

-- August 10, 2006 11:10 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Tyler:

I accessed the same site http://www.oanda.com/convert/classic. According to what I saw, the Iraqi Dinar is at 1415.60 for 1 USD.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 10, 2006 11:18 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

QUOTES:
Carl said:
So! to say that God is a figment of man's imagination is stating something as a certainty, and I really don't believe you or I either one have that qualification to make that type of statement. It would probably be better stated as, it is my belief that god is created from man's imagination. For just as strongly as you believe in your belief concept, Sara believes just as strongly in hers. Personally, I think both of you have chosen the path that is right for each of you, taking into consideration the stage of your soul development...but then again...I guess I just added a third belief here...
END OF QUOTE

Nelly said:

Ok, yeah I guess that is opinion, but seems to me, 'God' is whatever anybody decides it is, whatever they choose for it to be, that fits their way of thinking. Surely then it is ones own awareness that creates these concepts and chooses the rules and boundaries to which they should govern themselves? the concept of god or gods has evolved (there is that word again) over hundreds and thousands of years, as people have changed their perception of reality and their surroundings.

I digress a little more, but I see animals as having an awareness, at least of their surroundings, of danger, of smells, sounds etc. I this what people here would define as awareness? Is this different to spiritual awareness? I don't see that as being the same, because I can't imagine a rabbit or a fish contemplating what faith to follow or who its god should be.

END OF QUOTE

MY THOUGHTS:

Carl and Nelly both seem to believe that we create God of our own selves, out of our own imaginations. We may discover God exists, and the known and living world may point toward the unseen reality of a being larger than the cosmos can contain, but we do not create God, nor choose the rules and boundaries by which man should govern himself.

"All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? Or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth-that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the Ground without his Notice, is it probable that an Empire can rise without his Aid?""

- Benjamin Franklin, To Colleagues at the Constitutional Convention

And another quote:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

===end quote===

Do you propose that these men were all making this up about God creating men equal and endowed by their Creator with unalienable Rights.. and that governments are instituted to secure those rights? Their reliance on the protection of divine Providence is relying on a figment of their imaginations or a God they made up in their minds? You indict these forefathers with setting out to found a country on flights of fantasy and figments of imagination?

I think perhaps you go too far..

As for vaunting human enlightenment to the point of it being above God and able to look down from the judge's bench and judge God:

I watched an ant climb a blade of grass this morning. When he reached the top, his weight bent the blade down to the ground. Then, twisting his thorax with insectile precision, he grabbed a hold of the next blade.

In this manner, he traveled across the lawn, covering as much distance vertically as he did horizontally, which both amused and delighted me.

And then, all at once, I had what is sometimes called an "epiphany"; a moment of heightened awareness in which every- thing becomes crystal clear.

Yes, hunched over that ant on my hands and knees, I suddenly knew what I had to do... Quit drinking before noon.

===

:)

Sara.

-- August 10, 2006 11:48 AM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Oh...wierd. Basically, using the same converter, if you convert IQD to USD you get 1415.6, whereas if you convert USD to IQD, you get 1539.7. Ok, I see now, my figure would be if I wanted to cash out. Naturally the rates are higher, rather if I want to buy, then the rates are lower (increasing dollar profit). Makes sense, however it does raise a question: Right now the difference between the asking price and selling price is 0.000057. In the event of a revaluation, do you think that will remain the same, or will it go up or down?

~tyler

-- August 10, 2006 11:55 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

That was not meant in any way as a personal attack.
It was just to say, that when you strike at the One who gave you the liberties you are using,
using those God-given and unalienable rights to deprecate belief in Him as only a figment of
the imaginations of men.. such "revelation" or "awareness" is not wise.
Striking at the foundation on which you are standing and derive your rights and freedom..
it just is not right or good.

Sara.

-- August 10, 2006 12:55 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Quote:

New Investment Law Under Final Review

The Parliament sent the new investment law draft to the Investment Committee for final review. The final vote is expected to take place on the 10th of August. - Al-Adala

http://www.izdihar-iraq.com/news/PDFs/RoundUps/2006_07_july/2006_07_22-27_roundup.pdf

Anyone found anything on this vote?

Sara.

-- August 10, 2006 12:59 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Talking about God's providence, goodness and kindness..

===
Analysis: Was this meant as next 9/11?
By PAUL HAVEN, Associated Press Writer Aug 10, 2006

Its scope was ruthlessly ambitious, causing destruction officials say would have been "unimaginable." The alleged plot to take down several U.S.-bound planes with liquid explosives appears to be unlike anything the world has seen in years.

Counterterrorism officials said Thursday the London plot appears to bear the fingerprints of al-Qaida, and may have been "the Big One" they have been dreading since Sept. 11, 2001, particularly as the five-year anniversary of the carnage approaches.

More than 20 people have been jailed, terror threat levels have been raised to some of their highest levels, and hundreds of flights have been canceled worldwide.

"The scope or the magnitude of this attack is much larger than previous attacks," said Rohan Gunaratna, a terrorism expert at Singapore's Institute of Defense and Strategic Studies.

He added that everything known so far points to involvement by Osama bin Laden's terror group.

"It is a classic al-Qaida tactic. It is a hallmark of al-Qaida to carry out coordinated, simultaneous attacks, and the aviation domain is certainly known to al-Qaida. They have obvious experience in working around that system and extensive knowledge of the aviation domain."

U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff echoed those sentiments, saying the attack "was sophisticated, it had a lot of members and it was international in scope."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060810/ap_on_re_eu/terror_plot_the_big_one

-- August 10, 2006 1:36 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Lance wrote:

Ok, now that I have caught my breath, let’s pick this apart.
...
5. “Process of dedollarization” two possible meanings behind this; 1.) Making the IQD more valuable and thus taking away any dollar market on the street. 2.) Un-Pegging the IQD from the dollar. Or both.
END OF QUOTE

Good work on finding this Lance.

I'm not really sure how to interpret your 1) definition. Maybe you mean the same as me, but I see this as a move away from using dollars as currency, in favour of making the IQD the common and only regular currency in use. I.e dollars may be used by banks for large international transactions, but for everyday use on the street, they aim to remove the use of dollars.

The revalation (not revalUation)of 14.9 Trillion dinars being held by the CBI makes me even more convinced that a RV will not happen or will be low.

I'm not a pessimist, honest, just a realist trying to make sense of the situation, with the information at hand.

It could be a long, bumpy ride before we see any real gains in our investments. Fingers crossed that I'm wrong.

P.s. Your post of religious quotes was very enlightening.

-- August 10, 2006 4:56 PM ∞

---

Terri wrote:

http://www.portaliraq.com/news/Council+of+Ministers+agrees+on+draft+law+promoting+investment+projects+in+Iraq__1112180.html

Investments : Council of Ministers agrees on draft law promoting investment projects in Iraq
Thursday, August 10th 2006
Send to a friend

The Council of Ministers has agreed on the draft law of investment aimed at promoting the establishment, development and expansion of investment projects in Iraq.

According to the Iraqi Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the draft law has been referred to the Council of Ministers for consideration and approval.

-- August 10, 2006 5:14 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Roger wrote:

Nellie,

No, I dont mean that Dinosaurs was around 4000 years ago, they died out aroubnd 65 mill yeras ago, I just had an imaginary idea that only 4000 years ago, God created the earth, and did a lot of earth layers that logically will seem to be millions of years old, and in those layers he tossed Dinosaurbones, in what would logically seem be older than 65 mil years ago, as a joke.

Mr Bean, oh yes, seem him painting his room with a gallon of paint and a stick of dynamite in it, to make it go quicker.

Unfortunately when he lit the fuse, the phone rang, and as he went back and picked up, the concoction went off, resulting in his Hiroshima type shadow on the wall.

Do you know this one?

-" I would like to inquire about the parrot I bought in this store some time ago"
-"Oh yes the Norwegian blue, wonderful plymage"
-"Well, its dead."
-"No it's not, it's just sleeping".

Firstly to all, revalation is spelled revelation. DOH! I should have checked that one before I posted. For all other spelling mistakes, I blame god for giving me 96 keys, only 10 fingers and very little co-ordination. Only kiddin' :o)

Hi Roger. Sorry, yes I did understand your joke and I had put about 4 answers to different people into one post and decided it was too long, so I cut and paste the various bits into different posts and in the process, omitted the bit where I said this (referring to your 4000 year... line) in context to the discussion is very funny. It made me laugh out loud, as did your line saying we should take a moment out to say OOOOOOHHHHHHHHMMMM!

The parrot scene I only just saw for the first time, a few weeks ago. There was a 100 best ever comedy clips show and this was really high. My memory is a bit sketchy, but I'm pretty sure it was 1st or 2nd. John Cleese is a comic genius.

I've not seen a lot of Python. Most of it was broadcast before I was old enough to watch it. I've seen bits in re-runs though. My favourite scene that I recall is the Knights that go 'nee', where the knight demands a toll to pass. The toll is refused, so the knight attacks the traveller (?), but himself ends up having his limbs severed, one by one, but never losing his determination to collect the toll... the scene continues until he is hopping on one leg, with no arms shouting "ye shall not pass!"... You know it?

-- August 10, 2006 5:21 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Let me echo my appreciation to Lance for taking the time to read through that 53 page document. I am planning on reading it tonight.

Frankly, we still do not have any clear indication as to when a RV is coming. What we do know is the following:

1. IQD is the country's currency. This should dispell any speculation or rumor of the Iraqi Government pulling the Bremer Dinar and isssuing another new currency. The Bremer Dinars are not worthless and will increase in value, as the CBI determines.

2. IQD will have its own value seperate and apart from the U.S. Dollar. "Finally, the CBI will consider the possibility of a gradual appreciation of the Iraqi dinar if needed, which could have a positive effect on both inflation and the process of dedollarization." For the good or bad, the IQD will not be tied to the American economy. The value of the IQD is solely dependent upon Iraq. I go back to the necessity for its own organic GNP and GDP. In my estitmation, a RV or open trading cannot happen until the oil starts flowing and stabilization is achieved.

The article does reflect positives that we as Iraqi Dinar investors should be excited about. Our hopes and dreams for a valuable Dinar may not come to pass in the time frame we would like it to. I am convinced however, more than I ever have been that the IQD is and will be worthy investment.

In contrast to Nellie B, I am not trying to be overly optimistic, but I am aware of all the positives from investing in the Dinar.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 10, 2006 6:29 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

terrance wrote:

Nelly,

You wrote -"I do not believe in God, therefore I do not believe he can own me. If indeed he exists and therefore he owns me, I challenge him to spend or sell, or dispense of me!

God is but a figment of mans imagination, therefore we are his creators. We own God Ok, who wants to buy a God? any takers..."

What caused you to be bitter toward the thought of God? I ask because so very few people are truly Athiests.

As I said in a recent post, perhaps it is better that I call myself non-religious, rather than a true Atheist. I am not bitter to the thought of God. I entertain the possibility that I am wrong and I enjoy the viewpoint of others to help me to determine and ratify my own beliefs. Generally, the more I hear from people that follow a prescribed religion, the more I feel they follow the thinking of others, rather than having 'faith' in their own thoughts and independent conclusions.

Where I am bitter is when someone under the guise or shield of a particular faith speaks that it is the unequivocal truth, or fact that 'their' God exists and then encourage, promote or preach to others that they should also follow this faith.

There is no tangible proof that any god or gods exist, therefore to state that a God or Gods do exist, without question, is falsehood. To promote the belief of falsehood is to discourage free thinking and to discourage free thinking is to censor the truth.

Many times people who hold your view have had a painful past emotionally or physically. Is that you?

I think most people have had a painful past to some extent. Mine was probably none more so that most. My reaction to the mental pain and anguish of adolescense and self-discovery was perhaps more pronounced than most. I had many minutes, hours and even days where the mental pain was seemingly unbearable and had I been able to simply press a button to bring forward a painless death, I would have done it a hundred times or more. My belief is that when my body stops, so does my mind and any form of consciousness. Therefore dying is simply the end of awareness.

Because I have no belief in God, I have no fear of God and neither do I fear death, only the physical pain of dying. Most of the time, living is quite bearable though, even fun at times :o)I am aware that my thinking is unpopular and a bit 'far out' for some people, but it is what I truely believe and how I live my life. I do not say these things to cause controversy or get attention. I am a very private person. I do not promote my thinking in my daily life (this is the exception, if you interpret my bearing of my self as promotion of my thoughts)

Please realize that as an Athiest you have to borrow the Christian worldview in order to hold onto your Athiestic worldview. You are using faith in something that is foundational to your Athiesm. That something which you cannot touch, observe, measure, or feel is the Laws of Logic. Unless of course you believe the Laws of Logic are not intrinsic, but rather exist by convention, in which case nothing you know is a certainty.....nothing.

I believe If I had been brought up in an environment free from ANY religious influence, I would have come to the same view as I hold now. The concept of a creator making this world and everything in it is alien to me and I just dont buy into this idea.

Had I been brought up into an environment where I was devoid of any exposure to scientific findings, I think that I would be much more open to following a particular faith or religion. I would not know to question the preachings of others, as my mind would not have the tools to break down the information into lies or truths.

The issue about our existence is not about whether a monkey has enough time to type the dictionary. Given enough time a monkey could type every book ever written. But would it mean anything.

It would mean that Boyle's theory of probability was fundamentally flawed and that life could indeed be created from non-life

However, to a person in China who doesn't know English, a monkey could type the 3 letters "CAT" and they would have no meaning to that person. "CAT" has no meaning unless we decide by convention beforehand that it is to mean a furry little 4 legged feline.

So, one of the real issues is how do I account for the information, its meaning, and the languange encoded within all life. That language written in the chemical alphabet called nucleotides, makes up every strand of DNA and RNA. And it had to be put there by an outside source....it cannot evolve.

The information is scientific interpetation of nature. It follows patterns and can be quantified and ratified, 'understood' nature did not 'write' these laws, numbers and codes, people did, to make logical sense of the complex structures before them.

Just as you understand this blog site coded in "english" because we have predecided by convention what this code is and what is all means, so too all life is encoded. That information brings us all to the obvious conclusion we all knew from within anyway. There is a Designer and purpose to life.

Nature, creatures, plants are not encoded, they are formed from many complex structures, chemicals and compounds. These are just interpreted into codes by a pattern or convention. It does not bring me to the logical conclusion that there is a designer and purpose to life, therefore, how can it bring us ALL to that conclusion?

Alchemists have been trying for years to recreate precious metals and stones from other simple compounds. They have not got it right yet, but with time and effort, science will prevail. What hope have we got of creating a living being, if we cannot yet create the basic building blocks of inamimate substances? Science is in its infancy and there is a huge amount yet to be learnt. Virtually everything that is known of the world we are living in has been discovered within only the last 1000 years. This is a miniscule amount of time to begin to comprehend the complexity of nature. Yet I strongly believe due to the rate of advancement, that within the next 1000 years, man will learn the secrets of creation and life and will indeed be able to play God and make life from non-life!

Ask yourself - why is it all men and women seek purpose in life? Why does this grand question permeate all people "What is the purpose of life?" If there is no purpose in life this question wouldn't come up in the first place, just like a creature with no eyes, born and living on a pitch dark planet would never ask the question "Why is it dark here?"

It is not because there IS a purpose in life that we all wonder what it is, it is because we all seek an answer as to WHETHER there is a purpose in life.
A blind creature living on a dark planet would have no concept of light or dark, as it had never known anything other than black (nothing). This is not the same as saying there must be a purpose because we all question what the purpose is. To compare the two would be to remove our sense of purpose, just as the blind creature has no sense of light.

We are "prewired" to know our purpose here. That is why clergy, scientists, and all people pursue questions of our origin. Your were created for some unfathomable, truly awesome reasons. And the reality of it all is that:

If we are prewired to know our purpose, how come we have such a hard time discovering what that purpose is? Do you mean that we all have different, individual purposes?

I dispute that I was created by anyone other than my parents

You are NOT and accident!

This makes me especially happy that I'm not an accident!

You were created for a purpose!

My own purpose... to challenge your thinking? I have an idea of what the human purpose is, but thats too big for this post.

Someone wants YOUR love!

I hope so! show me where to find her!

He LOVES you so much he thought of you as someone to die for!

He died for me 2000 years before I was born! Er, ok!

Suicidal friends are more trouble than they are worth!

Who wouldn't want a friend like that?

ME!!!

Woooahhh, Its gettin' late.

-- August 10, 2006 7:07 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,

Real good thingie you found there, It tells most everything except , WHEN.

I can imagine the German High Command, before the allied invasion of the continental Europe. WHEN , WHERE, HOW MUCH?

"Process of de- Dollarization" HMMM. Lance can you please answer me this, you're there and you answer will probably explain more what they mean by de-Dollarization.

As far as I understand the Iraqis are heppy and are using the Iraq Dinars, as their every day currency, right?

If De-Dollarization would mean that part of the daily living is part of daily handling of Dollars, then I can see, why the intend would be to wean off the Dollar and introduce the Dinar in full.

However the picture I have got is that it was only in the very beginning, after the invasion, that Dollars was more of a currency, as all contracts was paid in Dollar and, the Iraq Dinar had at the time a very bad rap, could be forged with a photocopier, and had a face of Saddam on it.

As I understand it right now, there might very well be Dollars, as well as Pounds and other currencies out there, but the daily living is solidly with Iraq Dinars right now.

If you can verify that, it would mean that de-Dollarization would NOT mean that CBI want to do a campain to get rid of competing currencies as that is already done, but it would rather mean the Iraq Dinar pegged to the Dollar, or it's relationship in value to the Dollar.

-- August 10, 2006 7:58 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

On the Godly, Spiritual , Agnostic and Atheist front everything seems to be alive and well.

In conviction rate!!?? , Sara seem to finally have got her match in Nellie.

If no Dinar news for a while.....go for the kneecaps.

-- August 10, 2006 8:06 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Never seen a heppy Iraqi?

-- August 10, 2006 8:07 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

A good example of human imagination....
As for as I know, no one ever described what Jesus looked like.....was he short,stocky, tall, slim, buckteeth,no teeth,false teeth,gap teeth,cross eyed,owl eyed,squint eyed,brown eyed,blue eyed,bloodshot eyed, hairliped, straightliped,siliconeliped,long hair,short hair,pony tail,mowhawk,punk style,brown hair,blond hair,red hair,bald, receding bald,two legged,club footed,all toes, missing toes,pigeion toed,stub fingered,slim fingered,all fingers,no fingers,nicotine stain fingers,round face,chisel face,round chin,pointed chin,no chin,clef chin,flabby stomach,wine bellied,rubboard stomach, ......no one knows....but go into any christian bookstore and you will see many pictures of Jesus, kneeling, standing, preaching,talking to children, at the last supper, all pictures depict the artists imagination as to what Jesus looked like....mostly slim,tanning booth glow,freshly combed long brown hair with hairspray, model face neat beard,gleeming white pearl toothpaste teeth, designer clothes, armanda sandels,...
now that is imagination...

-- August 10, 2006 8:07 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Nellie,
Oh yes ofcourse, it's the "Holy Grail" movie.

The forrest can only be passed if you manage to cut a tree with a sardine.

The death of the killer rabbit, with the holy handgranade.

They did a lot of movies, but the peak of TV shows was late 60-s early 70-s.

It's been nothing like it since.

Dont worry about spelling, over here we cant do that at all. Our pshyciatrists are part of the schoolboard diagnosing us all, as kids, giving us all kind of happy pills, so when we graduate we're not even able to fill in a form.

Tyres are Tires, and Colour is color. We dont even know how to get properly pissed (drunk), we just get upset.

Heard MI5 and Scotland Yard did a real great job unraveling a big murder plot, involving a big number of airplanes blown out of the sky. Well, done.

What amazes me is that Brittish Muslims, born and raised in Brittain, some second and even third generation, is not Brittish first. Evidently they feel no belonging to their homecountry and the Brittish ways.

From being there, I can imagine it would be so easy to be proud of being Brittish, such an inheritance and culture, and jolly good way of life. I'm sure there is problems there as well as here, but the whole culture is so unique and ....well... Brittish, that I would think it's impossible to not be swept up in the way of life.

They must manage to live there in their own cultural bubble.

I might think that it will be harder and harder for the Brittish to accept, tolerate and protect them the way they live now. There must be some demand of getting the Muslim hate preachers out of there. I know Brittain have the human right concepts pretty right where it should be, and the tolerance is probably better than here, but my point is, how much can you tolerate.

If one group of people is breeding murderers, it's time to stop being seeeeensitive to thier culture and demand a few things. If not ... one way ticket to Pakistan.

-- August 10, 2006 8:42 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Carl,

Yes, I was out many years ago selling those velvet paintings, in gas station corners.

I sold picures of Jesus in his classic costume, you know the one mostly accepted by most white Christians, basicly a White Hippie.

However, to the black community I sold him painted as a black man.

Everybody had their pick.

-- August 10, 2006 8:48 PM ∞

---

Valerio wrote:

The fact that those apostles who were with Jesus wrote the New Testiment, and not one of them descibed his phisical appearance in any way is further evidence that there writtings were inspired by God. If they were writting of themselves they would have surely described his appearance, at least one of them. Wouldn't you think.
Knowing his physical appearance would be a stumbling block to what was important, his teaching and the events of his life.

For all you who are obviously well studied I ask.
I don't know the answer myself, but am curious.
If you could travel at the speed of light from the earth into space for 12 hours, and then immediately turn around and return to earth at the speed of light, how much time on earth would have elaspsed while you were on the 24 hour journey?

-- August 10, 2006 9:57 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

All,

Some thoughts and answers (my guesses) below to question from the gallery. Please remember that these are my opinions and not to be taken as fact, or especially to the bank.

Dedollorization; a couple of possible meanings:

1. U.S. dollars are still used for big purchases over here so probably 30-50% of the economy is still Dollar based. If you buy a car you use Dollars, or for a loaf of bread you use IQD. With Iraq being a “Cash Based” society (no plastic and very few checks), IQD is just too bulky for those big purchases. This is the one I love for us investors. If you increase the valuation of the IQD then people will start to use more of it, to buy everything. This will do away with the dollar market on the street, and the CBI will gain additional Dollars in their vaults as people trade one for the other. There is also the matter of pride in your own National Currency. We as Americans take this for granted as our Dollars are good anywhere. The Iraqi’s want the same, especially if it actually has value.

2. Currently the IQD is Pegged to the Dollar. If the dollar falls on the international market (ISX) then the IQD falls also. This option made sense right after the invasion because the Dinar had “No” value as there was “No” economy, and the CPA could prop up the new IQD as it tried to get a foothold. If you instead PEG to a market basket percentage of Dollars, Euros, and Oil (35%, 35%, 30%), then you spread your liability and stabilize your currency. If one falls in value, then inevitably one of the others rise, and your overall value remains pretty much the same. This is the most stabilized way of managing your currency, but it tends to allow only slow or moderate gains in value. There is the second possibility of the Iraqi’s not Pegging and instead going to a Floating Currency on the ISX. This is where the market (ISX) determines the value and where the currency really becomes a commodity. If you have a huge increase in the value of Oil, and your economy is based on this, then your currency can gain value rapidly even though your money is not Pegged to it. Likewise if the terrorist blow up your refineries then the traders (ISX) would speculate that your currency is not worth as much, and thus pay less for it. This market volatility makes you subject to the slightest wind or hint of good/bad news. Granted, we as investors would most likely see a more rapid “initial” increase in our investment under this scenario, but going to the bank one hour to cash in vs. going the next hour could mean thousands of dollars in loss or profit. This is why I have always said that floating would be bad. Then there is the third possibility on valuation, that they will keep the IQD Pegged to the Dollar. This is the easiest way to maintain their current stability. Nothing much really wrong with this idea, except your value remains tied to the rise and fall of the dollar.

Note: Many people have wondered why the Iraqi’s don’t PEG to Oil as a single basis for their currency. Just look at the current instability of the Oil Commodity Market now, and then add the ISX on top of that, and you equal insanity. Granted you may have a very high initial value, but overall it is unstable as hell. Your IQD might be worth $0.35 one day and $0.20 the next. This is no way to run and keep a stable economy, where you can never be sure what the money in your wallet or purse is worth.

So “Dedollarization” has several possibilities as to what they, the (GoI) Government of Iraq mean. It could be both, and I hope it is. Either way we win in the long run, so long as they are forced to abide by the IMF and WB conventions. Not that they have much choice in the matter. What I find really interesting is the GoI telling the IMF in their response to the SBA, that they were thinking about a gradual appreciation of the IQD. This response would never have been mentioned unless it had already been discussed (in depth) and gotten approval from these entities. You, as a government, do not just float ideas like this to the Big Kahunna’s. You already have their approval. Now we just need to see what they (GoI, IMF, WB) have determined the “actual value” of the IQD to be, and I would bet that they come in much lower then whatever “they feel” it is. They want it to rise and not fall, and will let the market determine where it is going. This is not ZERO Lopping, but RV’ing.

Having thought about this last night, I realized that I had missed the really big picture in that one little sentence of the GoI’s reply; “Finally, the CBI will consider the possibility of a gradual appreciation of the Iraqi dinar if needed, which could have a positive effect on both inflation and the process of dedollarization.”. What did I miss? THEY KNOW IT IS WORTH MORE THEN IT IS CURRENTLY VALUED AT!!!!!!!! Duh, and double Duh, and Oh so obvious. Too busy figuring out all of the intrinsic possibilities, and missed the pie-in-the-face. You (GoI) don’t say this, if it isn’t actually worth more then it is currently being sold for.

Ok, that is it for the dedollarization lesson. Now on to other answers. I wrote:

How many IQD are out there on the street, in circulation: 9.6 Trillion IQD (this includes our investments).

IQD held by the CBI: 14.9 Trillion IQD
Foreign Exchange Assets in CBI Vaults: 17.3 Trillion IQD (not in dinars)
“ “ in Gold: 162 Billion IQD
“ “ other assets: 18.3 Trillion IQD (not in dinars)
“ “ SDR Account: 988 Billion IQD

Guess-Imation of IQD printed from the SBA:

9,621 Billion IQD on the open market (includes our investments).
17,360 Billion IQD in CBI vaults.
26,981 Billion IQD in existence. Or 26.9 Trillion IQD. Far from the 6 Trillion stated for a long time on various Blogs. It is probably over 30 Trillion as I am too lazy to decipher all of the numbers on page #17 of the SBA. Not to mention the definitions of all these numbers are in bankers language.

I have looked at a couple of other countries percentage of reserves vs. circulation, and this is pretty close to the norm. So my statement that all those reserves are possibly smaller denominations is probably incorrect. But having given it more thought, I realized that it doesn’t make any difference. If you have smaller denominations in the vault, you do not necessarily have to include them in your count (You only have to count the amount that you can or have already put in play). They would be out of circulation and thus have no value. As higher denominations returned to the vault you would just exchange them for smaller with a Zero gain of amount in circulation. If I exchanged at the CIB a 25K IQD bill for 250 100 IQD bills, and then the CIB took the 25K bill and placed it out of circulation (not counted), the CIB has achieved ZERO gain in circulation of dinars overall. So I imagine that the smaller denom bills are printed, but are as such not “in circulation or vaulted”. In-other-words it is just paper waiting to become something of value again, or burned if you don’t need it.

One other interesting item from the SBA page #17 is the current exchange rate for the IQD vs. Dollars:

Actual as of Mar’06: 1480 IQD to the Dollar.
Projected: 1345 IQD to the Dollar. (MOST INTERESTING)

But remember that these figures are based on the IQD “not” being RV’d.

When will it happen? A couple of possibilities. A Sunday, as that is the start of the Arab work/business week, or a Monday because that is the start of the ISX trading week. But I believe soon, or no later then the end of the year. Look at page 42, Section III of the SBA, and you will see many hoops/gates that still have to be completed by the GoI/CBI prior to the end of the year.

Is an RV dependent on the Foreign Investment Law being passed? NO. Is an RV part of the Foreign Investment Law? DEFINITELY NOT. Why? Because we already would have heard about it. It has already been read and published by the GoI, and even if it was included in some Secret Squirrel part of the Foreign Investment Law, can you really expect a lot of politicians to keep their mouths shut? Do they compliment each other? Yes, well sort of. It would be good timing, and you want to have it in place before you pass the Hydrocarbon Investment Law.

And finally my best guess as to an RV range: $0.001 to $0.05. At $0.01, (one cent) every Trillion IQD in circulation is the equivalent of 100 Billion Dollars. The only money that really counts against an RV is the money in circulation (9.6 Trillion), as that is what the GoI has out against it as IOU’s. The rest is just paper (pretty paper) in the vault. They can print and issue more to decrease the value, or hold and burn to increase the value. I hope they are having a Bonfire!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Class is now over. If you believe any of the above, then the burning bush is talking back to you, and you know what the definition of that is. Or as my wife would say “you are full of it”.

Tomorrows class will be on how to trade in your IQD for Dollars without getting ripped off when it finally RV's. Not kidding!!!

Lance (Still wearing my Hair Shirt)

-- August 11, 2006 2:22 AM ∞

---

tony wrote:

Sunt tony.

-- August 11, 2006 6:41 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Lance….

Thanks for all the work you’re doing on the Dinar knowledge base.

My shot at the dart board goes like this….

-They will peg the Dinar to a basket of currencies and oil like below. Then The CBI will control the Dinar at a fixed +/- range around the established peg. This should satisfy the “stability” factor the IMF is requiring.

US DOLLAR
EURO
STERLING POUND
Jordanian Dinar
UAE Dirham
Kuwait Dinar
Japanese Yen
Barrel of oil

-When will the Dinar Peg? Everybody is taking a shot at this and mine is based on the available reconstruction money. The 20+ billion that was injected into the country for reconstruction will run out, or be fully allocated, by the end of Sept. That means the Iraqi Government will have to fund reconstruction on their nickel starting this fall. I believe they will want to do it with a strong Dinar instead of the current value. So I think the peg could happen any time and no later than the end of the year.

COM’ON DINAR

-- August 11, 2006 9:35 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

The CBI has added a "bad boy" list to their site.....

http://www.cbiraq.org/cbs3b.htm

-- August 11, 2006 10:36 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

I have failed to scroll back to see who posted the link to the IZDIHAR link. This link is for the Iraqi Business News for July 22-27, 2006. The specific link is www.izdihar-iraq.com

What a great document. It continues to support the overwhelming evidence of the value of Iraq. Note the following:

1. Iraq's daily oil production could reach 2.5 million barrels [by the] end of 2006. "Iraq will need [an additional] $20 billion US dollars in foreign investments to raise daily oil production to 6 million barrels." Does anyone see the US not approving this expenditure?

2. Iraqi and French agreement to obtain Airbus airplanes for Iraqi Airways.

3. Iraqi and Iran to cooperate in IT development.

4. Chinese companies to support of Iraqi electricity system.

5. Italy's contribution of 850,000 Euros for oil improvements.

6. New trade law is being drafted. "[Minister of trade]hopes that Iraq will join the World Trade Organization following adoption of the law."

7. New investment law under final review. "The final vote is expected to take place on the 10th of August."

Iraq is truly becoming a bed of multi-national investment. All resulting in a strong Dinar. With interest from the International community I can see (in the future) the IQD vauled comparably with both the Kuwati Dinar and Saudi currencies.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 11, 2006 10:38 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Progress....a sign of the times....

==========================================================

Conferences

Iraqi reconstruction conference to be held in late November

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10 August 2006 (MENAFN)
The United States, Japan, and countries in Europe, will hold an economic conference in November to sign an agreement on a five-year plan to assist in the economic reconstruction of Iraq, MSN news reported.

The parties concern will be on how Iraq will present a blueprint of its economic reconstruction plan. The reconstruction plan will be on the enhancement of transparency of its economic and financial systems and the elimination of corruption. It is also expected to cover a broad range of issues including Iraq's oil development projects, fiscal management, and creation of better financial markets.

However, many European countries have now come to realize Iraq's economic potential and the importance of stability in the Middle East, noting that he expects the negotiations to proceed smoothly this time.

-- August 11, 2006 10:53 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Does anybody really think the US would allow some goofball in Iran to take over this part of the Iraq "golden Goose"?

==========================================================
Ring of steel protects Iraqi lifeblood

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BASRA OIL TERMINAL, Iraq, 11 August 2006 (Reuters)
The warships circling the giant oil terminal in the hazy twilight off the Iraqi coast bear silent testimony to its importance.

Basra Oil Terminal is the main source of Iraq's revenues, a key supplier to the global energy market and an obvious target for insurgents aiming to thwart the country's economic recovery.

Warships from the United States, Britain and Australia are there to guard against any seaborne attack as the terminal pumps crude oil into the holds of berthed tankers, while others queue nearby.

Shukur Mahmoud Taha, terminal manager for Southern Oil Company, says 1.8 million barrels a day are being exported.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php?refid=DH-S-11-08-2006&article=9836

-- August 11, 2006 11:02 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Notice they use the term "inflationary pressures" that several people have commented on in relation to a possible RV....very interesting!!

==========================================================

Bank raises interest rates to 12%
By Sameer Naser

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11 August 2006 (Azzaman)
The Central Bank has raised interested by two points from 10% to 12%.

The hike was widely expected as the bank struggles to persuade Iraqis to keep and boost their bank savings amid an unprecedented surge in violence.

Unidentified gunmen have recently targeted several banks in Baghdad and other provinces.

The government has declined comment on these attacks, but officials refusing to be named say millions of dinars tens of thousands of dollars have been stolen.

The hike is the latest bid by the bank to maintain confidence in the currency. It appears the bank is determined to preserve the exchange rate of the currency despite evident lack of confidence in the banking system.

Central banks normally resort to higher interest rates to bring torrid markets under control and stamp out any inflationary pressures.

In Iraq’s case, the hike is counterproductive and only meant to increase confidence in currency among the population.

Business is sluggish in the country. All economic sectors are in need of investments from both local and foreign entrepreneurs.

The service sector is in dire conditions. So is the industry.

The bank’s only achievement since the 2003 U.S. invasion has been the fixed exchange rate of 1,500 dinars to the dollar.

The rate has been maintained thanks to the surge in oil prices.

-- August 11, 2006 11:21 AM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Lance Said:

...And finally my best guess as to an RV range: $0.001 to $0.05. At $0.01, (one cent) every Trillion IQD in circulation is the equivalent of 100 Billion Dollars. The only money that really counts against an RV is the money in circulation (9.6 Trillion), as that is what the GoI has out against it as IOU’s. The rest is just paper (pretty paper) in the vault. They can print and issue more to decrease the value, or hold and burn to increase the value. I hope they are having a Bonfire!!!!!!!!!!!!!
END OF QUOTE

Lance I'm glad we agree on the figures... precisely. Had you or anyone posted these on the board before I did?

Nellie B:

2) Low RV (up to 5c at best, probably nearer .001c) then hopefully a rise over months or years.

I figured 1500 x .001 = 1.5 (approx 1500 dinars = 1.5 dollars) as the lowest likely start point.

My original post:
http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#122959

I think you have a better understanding of the figures and how to interpret them better than anyone else currently posting.

-- August 11, 2006 1:49 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Roger wrote:

On the Godly, Spiritual , Agnostic and Atheist front everything seems to be alive and well.

In conviction rate!!?? , Sara seem to finally have got her match in Nellie.

If no Dinar news for a while.....go for the kneecaps.
END OF QUOTE

Glad you think so Roger, but I'm not here to promote my thoughts or thinking, just explaining my position on a few things and doing what I see as setting the record straight on spiritual vs religious thinking.

If I use science or logic to back up my postings, I don't see that as promoting non-religion and is not supposed to offend or attack those that are religious.

I said before, I accept that Sara will always have the last word, as her personal agenda is stronger than my own. Somehow, I don't think you have heard the last of my views just yet though. I will defend my right to non-relgion, if I see the promotion of religion, which I have defined as the censorship of the truth.

-- August 11, 2006 2:10 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Nellie:

Generally, I have stayed out of any discussion centering aroud God, religion, or spiritualism. I am intrigued by your statement, "if I see the promotion of religion, which I have defined as the censorship of the truth".
What objective truth do you see religion censoring?

When I hear or in this case read "if I see the promotion of religion, which I have defined as the censorship of the truth." I immediately think this person feels their world view is being attacked.

Nellie, since you have stated you are non-religious and an atheist I believe your world view has been shaped by post modern ideals. Specifically, where truth is subjective. Meaning each person has his/her personal truth. Rather than truth being objective.

Early philosophical literature including Plato, Aristotle, Church Fathers, up to Soren Kirkegaard to the Enlightenment truth has always been objective. Meaning, there is a standard of right and wrong. These men did not sacrifice objectivity for subjectivity. Personal feelings and opinions were not considered superior to objective truth.

In the post modern world, we have lost objective truth. Truth is certainly subjective. We are teaching the next generation to do it if it feels good. My generation has learned nothing from the folly of the Baby Boomer generation. We too have succumbed to the lie of personal truth.

Objective truth is found in the words of Jesus; "You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." He and his word alone is the standard. He emanates truth.

Nellie, I really beieve you feel your non-religious world veiw is what is being censored.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 11, 2006 3:07 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Valerio wrote:

The fact that those apostles who were with Jesus wrote the New Testiment, and not one of them descibed his phisical appearance in any way is further evidence that there writtings were inspired by God.

Or evidence that they were never with Jesus?

If they were writting of themselves they would have surely described his appearance, at least one of them. Wouldn't you think.

Yes, to make observations and comments of physical appearance would be a 'normal' thing to do about someone so important, in the eyes of these apostles

Knowing his physical appearance would be a stumbling block to what was important, his teaching and the events of his life.

To me that would just add credibility to the story, not draw my attention away from the content.

For all you who are obviously well studied I ask.
I don't know the answer myself, but am curious.
If you could travel at the speed of light from the earth into space for 12 hours, and then immediately turn around and return to earth at the speed of light, how much time on earth would have elaspsed while you were on the 24 hour journey?

I don't consider myself well studied, but I'll have a stab at this if you don't mind. I think Roger with his knowledge of quantum physics is better qualified, but I'll try with simple reasoning...

10 minutes later... Thats a good question. I'm trying to think what would happen to the light that you see and the image of Earth (what you actually see as you are looking toward Earth) as you leave and return to Earth. I cant get my head around whether you would see a blur of stars as you sped away, or would get a static image, as the light from Earth's direction (the light you are heading away from is arriving at the same speed as you are leaving, but only from this direction). I think you would have to see a slow passing of stars rather than a blur of stars because light from all other directions is arriving faster than you are moving away from it, also because of the speed of travel you would cover a vast distance and you would see the relative change in your position to nearby stars quite slowly due to the distance from even the nearest of stars (the Sun). I think it takes around 8 minutes for the light from our sun to reach Earth, so yes it makes sense that you would see your relative movement through space in relation to other stars and planets. It also makes sense that the Earth would disappear from view almost instantly though, as you move away from it so rapidly, that it would quickly disappear from view. We can see the sun from Earth, but I doubt you would see the Earth from the Sun. Apart from the fact that the sun would toast your eyeballs (and everything else) the Earth is vastly smaller than the sun, around 1/110 the diameter and a whole lot dimmer.

The G-force of that U-turn at the end of 12 hours is going to give your chiropractor a bit of a hard time! Eww. Think of the mess.

On the return journey, you would see much the same view, in reverse.

(My) Answer:

24 hours exactly have elapsed on Earth. You are not going to know about it, as you died the instant you sped away from Earth at light speed, without thinking to accelerate up to light speed. Because of this, you would not see anything, so I wasted my time thinking about it.

You have spent 24 hours travelling and in that time, Earth has had one full revolution, You have clocked up some serious 'air' miles (approx 93,000,000 miles every 8 minutes)and you will arrive back at much the same point as you left... not exactly the same place though, as a true Earth day is not 24 hours (remember the extra day for leap year, every 4 years that corrects our days to 24 hours)

How did I do?

-- August 11, 2006 3:43 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Rob N;

I suggest Matt 10:11-16, shake the dust off your feet as the testimony is definitely rejected and disrespected.

Mat 10:14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.

No sense beating a dead dog, let them have the last say (which they accuse me of). I have had enough of their disrespect.

Sara.
PS Luke 4:24-27

-- August 11, 2006 4:11 PM ∞

---

Terrance wrote:

Hey Rob N. -

Nice post. Well said!

Terrance on the West Coast

-- August 11, 2006 4:20 PM ∞

---

Jason wrote:

Sara
May God bless you, and for the record I couldn't agree more with you!

-- August 11, 2006 5:01 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Someone Wrote:

"For all you who are obviously well studied I ask.
I don't know the answer myself, but am curious.
If you could travel at the speed of light from the earth into space for 12 hours, and then immediately turn around and return to earth at the speed of light, how much time on earth would have elaspsed while you were on the 24 hour journey?"

---- The answer is more than 24 hours. For anyone interested I can work out the exact time-----

Anyways.....great postings on the Dinar Lance, keep up the good work.!!!!!

-- August 11, 2006 6:33 PM ∞

---

Valerio wrote:

Nelly B

You said: "I don't concider myself well studied".

Well there it is now!

As far as the question about how much time passes on earth while traveling at the speed of light for 24 hours. I think it would be better answered by someone well studied in the theory of relalivity, which has yet to be disproven. I think their answer might be much different.

-- August 11, 2006 6:44 PM ∞

---

Valerio wrote:

Steve

Work it out please. I'm very interested

-- August 11, 2006 7:23 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Thanks, Jason.

Steve wrote:

"Existence" is a VERY loose term in regards to the discussion of. Time doesn't allow me to be in the same place at once. Yet it allows photons and some other subatomic particles to do just that. Why? It's all relative (hence the name of the theory). Ever wonder why big things exist longer and smaller things shorter? Interesting stuff. Let me know if you want a primer. It's free of charge.......

Send me the primer? :)
saraand-at-fastmail.fm

-- August 11, 2006 7:46 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Alrighty ye scallywags....pay attention:

The general equation for time dialation is as follows:

dt= (dt'/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)) = yt

Where dt = time interval observed at rest (the stationary observer on earth)
dt'= time interval observed by the moving person (spaceship)
v = velocity of the spaceship in terms of c (ie half the speed of light would be .5c in this equation)
c = velocity of light (3 x 10^8 m/s)
y = the dialation or contraction factor (I'll work without this factor here)
sqrt = the square root of whatever is inside the parentheses

Now with this basic framework we ask the question. Important to keep in mind that we are solving for dt NOT dt'. Since the speed of light is already in m/s , I will convert the given time dt' (24 hours) to seconds which is 86400 sec (if my abacus still works...hehe). Also, since we cannot travel EXACTLY at the speed of light (entering a value of c in place of v in this equation would yield a zero in the denominator which is, of course, gibberish). It would also violate a basic tenet of relativity. So I will take the speed of he ship to be really close to the speed of light..... 99% of it to be exact. So v will = .99c in this example.

Plugging and chugging yields a value of 612473 seconds or 170 hours.

Hope that helps the curious......happy Dinar hunting!!!!!!!

-- August 11, 2006 8:46 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

A note for my advanced students of math:

If you are fast about it, you realize that you can plug in any units and not worry about conversions (days, hours, seconds.....)

-- August 11, 2006 8:51 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Sara wrote:

I suggest Matt 10:11-16, shake the dust off your feet as the testimony is definitely rejected and disrespected.

Mat 10:14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.

No sense beating a dead dog, let them have the last say (which they accuse me of). I have had enough of their disrespect.

Sara.

"Shake off the dust from your feet....."

As if to imply that we non believers are "beneath" you? I not quite sure what to say to that. I think I'll take the high road and leave that alone......

-- August 11, 2006 9:13 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Oh guys, I 'm interested in where everybody buys thier Dinars from.

Good sites that I have heard of are safedinar.com and dinarprofits.com (expensive though!!!!). Any others?

-- August 11, 2006 9:21 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,
Really good posting. My time is a bit limited and I can feel I'm getting rusty on my upkeep on the Dinarscene, but I have always been able to get what I need on this site. Thanks Lance.

Steve, Well done on the equations, math was always a sore subject for me. You did right, you concluded that you cant go the speed of light, and took a value close to it. It all goes back to the famous E=Mc2.

With increased speed the mass of the object increases. The more power it will take to overcome the inertia to accelerate it, and the closer to the speed of light, the number goes up beyond absurdum. No known powersource is powerful enough to overcome the last power needed to accelerate an object over the speed of light.

Some might think that gravity will have an outreaching force greater than light, and thus we can have black holes.

It's not, the speed of light is constant, we're looking at the phenomenon described in General Relativity, the space time bending.

The tree dimensional concept will come if you study it, but it is so easy to describe it in a two dimensional plane.

A bigger celestial body with a lot of mass, like the earth or the sun, will bend the time and space around itself. Imagine you have a flat bedsheet and stretch it flat, put a bowling ball in the center of it, and you will have a dip around the bowling ball in the sheet (space), take a golfball, and if you send it rolling away just right on the sheet, it will enter the dip, and start circling the bowling ball.

The golfball in its own space is going in a straight line, the space/time is warped, and hence it follows the warped space, and it just happend to be a circle.

Gravity and acceleration is the same thing.

The gravity on earth is at a strenght we call 1 G.

If you were inside in a spacecraft, floating and had no gravity, then you accelerate the craft with 1 G.

You can not do one experiment inside that spacecraft (don't peek out the window) that will determine a difference of 1.G if you are sitting still on the ground on earth, or if the spacecraft was accelerating at 1G.

So a black hole is not a place where the light has been slowed down retarded , hit the brakes, and fallen back.

It's a place where the space/time has been bent due to gravity so much that it circles back at a distance called the event horizon.

Still the light photon is doing constant speed.

In vaccum.

Introduce matter and it will slow down. Lenses, water etc. Heard that the world record in slowdown process is a light speed of 160 mph in special fiberoptics used in bigger computers to reroute massive ammount of incoming data to distribute the dataflow better.

The notion that two particles can exist at the same time in two different places is not Relativity Theory, it's Quantum Mechanics.

Right now we're looking for the next Einstein, that can combine and define the overall physical universe. Einstein himself was spending last part of his life looking for the "Universal Equation" but it eluded him.

The three basic fundamentals we have, Newtons Principia, Einsteins Reliativity, and Quantum Mechanics, all works and is acknowledged as the tools for the physical universe, but it is a knowledge amongst any and all, in any of the gendre, that the three basic platforms do not fully agree.

There is discrepancies, like two particles being in two places at the same time.

One very simple question, have not been answered, in any of the known science scriptures today is , what is gravity.

The notion that it's acceleration, that time/space is warped around a mass, and an apple falls on Newtons head, only describes it. But no one have defined it.

We're trying to catch gravity waves, postulated by Einstein, right now in spaceprobes, but still it's just a description, not a definition of gravity.

It defies one of the most fundamental physical principles. The exchange of energy. Energy will not be destroyed, it will just move over from one form to the other.

The energy expelled needed to pull an 80.000 fully loaded truck toward earth is enormous, something should be hot around it, but still a truckstop can be pretty cold in wintertime.

Is'nt it a bummer, such a simple thing, and we cant figure it out.

True spaceflight will be possible when we figure out how to generate, control and handle gravity, we will also have solved any energy problem.

I guess we're not there yet, seems like we need another stage in our development, and we haven't left the ape stage just yet.

We are what we are, doesnt matter what we call it, if we create democracy in an ape colony we get ape democracy, if we take insane from the asylum and set up communism, we get insane communism, put stupids in charge of nazism and we get stupid nazism, put retards in charge of a religion and you get retard religion.

The world is so full of that crap, we just got to get better in something, perhaps ourself would be a good starting point. ( It's hard, but I'm trying)

-- August 12, 2006 1:33 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Roger!
Your last two paragraphs of your last post says it all...Amen!

-- August 12, 2006 8:08 AM ∞

---

Fred in Virginia wrote:

Been trying to keep up on your posts. Never posted anything and realize how groups disect every thing a new member does post on the board. Ran across a military buddie in Hawaii and he told me about the Dinar. I knew about the forex market and it really jolted my eyes open and I could not rest until I got my first million from the FEDEX delivery man. I purchased all of my 8.5 mil from GID Associates. I believe they are around $760 for a million. I try to read these posts everyday but being in the Navy I'm constantly in and out of port. Don't have a strong financial background but me and 12 others form Hawaii have purchased Dinars from GID Associates and they FEDEX the currency to your front door and simply require a signature.

-- August 12, 2006 8:16 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Thanks for the knowledge Fred.

Roger, you seem to be well read on physics in general. The two things I always teach are: everything is arbitrary, which in turn makes everything else relative (ie why isn't the color blue actually pink?) and there is no such thing as an absolute (except in the case of entropy, which is always increasing). Everything that follows is simply a consequence of these facts.....

Anyone else need physics knowledge? Don't hesitate to ask, my door is always open!!!!

Any other suggestions on Dinar sites???

-- August 12, 2006 9:44 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Steve…….

Thanks for your calculations and the answer of 170 hours. Actually the true answer was 170.00897……..just kidding!!!!

But now to the burning question….when will the Dinar RV? I’ve checked and double checked the fuzz in my belly button for the answer and didn’t come up with anything other than the grits I had for breakfast this morning.

Your next assignment…if you choose to accept it…is to come up with the mathematical probability of an RV within the next 30 days.

The last answer I came up with was, yes…100%… and within 33 nano seconds, but that was after three shots of Jim Beam so my results may be a bit flawed.

-- August 12, 2006 10:35 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Okie,

For some calculations in life you dont need a math equation.

Sometimes the math will led you astray too. By calculating that you will, upon arriving to a goal, will do first half the distance, then half of that, then half of that, you will mathematically never arrive.

It sure seems that way with the Dinar RV though.

However if the RV will be within or a bit more than 30 days, dont have a clue, however I do strongly believe we're out of the year after year wait.

Steve,
Time for your bragging rights to be fullfilled.

If you are sitting in a car, or airplane, and you have a Helium filled ballon, the vessel comes to a complete stop. Assuming it will be an absolute complete stop from full speed to zero and in a theoretical world, no damage was done to the vessel occupants or baloon. Where will the helium baloon go?

Assuming you have a long string , in a loop, and on that string was ping pong balls, attached in the same way as a pearl necklace.With the string going through. You have a barrel of water, and through a hole in the bottom of the barrel goes the string with ping pong balls. The string will go up in the water, up over the top and circle back to the bottom again. Assuming you could do a seal that will seal out the water, and excert no extra pressure, other than the weight of the water and athmospheric pressure, around the string and the ping pong balls when they enterer the bottom of the barrel, will you get a perpetum mobile?

Assuming you are standing still in realtion to the earth. First position you are standing on earth. Second position you are floating in space under no gravity. Where is time going slower and faster, in relation to each other?

The lastone, and this one is a piece of cake, everybody knows this one, -What is life?

Fred in Virginia,

Welcome to the Dinaroholics discussion board, the first thing members ask about other memebers is to stand up and confess their dependence on Dinars. Then you are free to discuss how much of your childrens money you have spent, how your college education loan was spent and we will all cheer you for a wise decision. I think you bought at a reasonable price, 760 per mil is about where you want to be. You can go cheaper, but mostly they take a lot of time for delivery, and the more pricy currency dealers have their own stash of Dinars, and will send you overnight.
You just got to weigh this back and forth in your own mind, if you think an RV is imminent, you might want it faster, if you still trust that the dealer will send you the Dinars, and not your money back in case of an RV, you might go with the companies that are selling cheaper. Me personally, I do believe we are very close to an RV now, and I would not choose a dealer that will have a 5 weeks turnaround. (well they all say"next week" everytime you call them). If you are in the armed forces, you might want to check out how to get hold of someone trusted in Kuwait or somewhere there, make him/her go straight into a bank and buy. There might be a Navy banking system already put in place, you might want to investigate that, with a bit of luck, the walk might not be that far.

Steve,
I got another math quiss for you, if you get 1350 ratio to the Dollar, how how much will it cost you per million , in Dollars.

The M&I bank out of Wisconsin (Milwaukee), will sell you Dinars to that rate, you must however set up an account with them. I talked with a rep of that bank in Coon Rapids Minesota, and they said, you could buy the Dinars, and they will be ready in about7- 10 days. If you are buying a large ammount, this might be a way to go, if you can get the bank to guarantee that once you bought the Dinars, that is the transaction date, and if the Dinar RV in the meanwhile, you still get them, now with a bank guarantee. Sorry I lost the number, but call number information and ask for Coon Rapids M&I Bank branch in Minnesota.

You might ask them for a listing of branches, you might have one close to where you live, I know they have a couple of them in Florida, but they are mostly located around the Great Lakes area.

Nellie,

You certainly would have made Einstein think twice about the correctenss of the Relativity Theory, he would have an easy time to get your idea abut the chirpractic viewpoint of it though.

Roger,
Yeah, that me...are you bored? Oh yeah, Dinar comon, RV...go go go.

-"Only idiots would think there is absolutes in this universe".
-"Are you sure about that?"
-"Absolutely !"

-- August 12, 2006 2:17 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Just read on the Iraq News, Iraq Deputy of Finance have been charged with corruption, along with a long line of other people mostly in former goverment positions.

-- August 12, 2006 3:51 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Wonder if the Deputy Minister of Finance , is the same as we would say THE Finance Minister. No name was given, but I guess it must be all the same. Clean up is in the works. Might this have been the same person that Dr Q, called being a bit dumb, and the same person went on TV all over the creation wanting to do the zero loop?

-- August 12, 2006 3:56 PM ∞

---

Taxmama wrote:

Exact same person. And why are we not surprised.

Good for us.

-- August 12, 2006 5:10 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Okie,

Your knowledge of Dinar basics is impressive. I'm sure you are dead on in your estimation of the RV. I'm eagerly awaiting good news here.

Roger wrote:

"If you are sitting in a car, or airplane, and you have a Helium filled ballon, the vessel comes to a complete stop. Assuming it will be an absolute complete stop from full speed to zero and in a theoretical world, no damage was done to the vessel occupants or baloon. Where will the helium baloon go?"

------------------It's obvious that anything not attached to the vessel will continue to go forward, unless you've bought my latest inertial dampers (on sale now for 1mil Dinar!!!). Now assuming the baloon is not attached in some way to you, we ask the question: how much friction is there between the baloon and the vessel ceiling? This depends on two things: the composition of the roof of the vessel and the composition of the baloon. Sorry, I don't have the static coefficients of friction memorized for all materials, you can look those up easily enough. Now we must consider, what was the momentum of the entire system prior to rest? I'm going to assume quite large in relation to the force holing the baloon to the roof of the vessel. I'll also assume that this is an isolated system. No the baloon doen't stay still. It has mass. If you wanted to neglect the mass and ask if the Helium atoms would move, the answer would still be yes. The thing to realize is the you wouldn't notice unless you were moving at relativistic speeds.

Roger wrote:

"Assuming you have a long string , in a loop, and on that string was ping pong balls, attached in the same way as a pearl necklace.With the string going through. You have a barrel of water, and through a hole in the bottom of the barrel goes the string with ping pong balls. The string will go up in the water, up over the top and circle back to the bottom again. Assuming you could do a seal that will seal out the water, and excert no extra pressure, other than the weight of the water and athmospheric pressure, around the string and the ping pong balls when they enterer the bottom of the barrel, will you get a perpetum mobile?"

----------------- I believe what you asking is if we have barrel full of water and a loop of string that goes through it with ping pong balls attached like pearls on a necklace, assuming the water will stay in the barrel without the application of a barrier, can those ping pong balls exhibit perpetual motion......

In a system where gravity is involved, the answer is definitely no even if we neglect the effect of friction on the string. The problem with this is that the loop, upon emerging from the top of the water still must point up for a short distance. In this interval the ping pong balls will be heavier than the surrounding medium (even if we are in a vacuum). Your dilemma is that the lighter the balls, the less force they exert at the bottom of the loop. The heavier the balls, the less bouyancy they have in the water (less upward momentum).

Without gravity and without any friction, the answer is still no. Bouyant force is dependent on gravity for its effects. The premise is that things of lesser density rise to the top. What is actually happening is that gravity is trapping the more dense stuff.

Roger wrote:

"Assuming you are standing still in realtion to the earth. First position you are standing on earth. Second position you are floating in space under no gravity. Where is time going slower and faster, in relation to each other?"

--------------------- I'll have to assume that you were dumped in space by some trash scow with minimal or no velocity. Here is the trick: The earth is moving. Although at much less than relativistic speeds. Yes time moves more solwly on earth, but the difference is so infinitesimal so as to not make any difference at all. I'll redo the problem I did earlier to illustrate this point except this time I will use the value for the velocity of earth in the equation.......

dt= (dt'/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)) = yt

Where dt = time interval observed at rest (the stationary observer on earth)
dt'= time interval observed by the moving person (spaceship)
v = velocity of the spaceship in terms of c (ie half the speed of light would be .5c in this equation)
c = velocity of light (3 x 10^8 m/s)
y = the dialation or contraction factor (I'll work without this factor here)
sqrt = the square root of whatever is inside the parentheses

Now as I said earlier, the earth moves, but real slow like- 29.8 km/sec or 29800 m/s. The key to this problem is understanding what percentage of the speed of light this velocity represents. Using my abacus, I get something like 9.93 x 10^-5. So we will substitute into this equation (9.93 x 10^-5)v for c. I will calculate now a one second period for the "floating in space" person. Plugging and chugging yields a value of 1.00000001 sec.

Now what the hell does that mean? It means that for every one second elapsed for the "floating" person, 1.00000001 seconds go by here on earth. Still not making sense? Let me put it in perspective: If you waited for 100 million seconds (thats 3.17 years for those without an abacus....) then you would be a whole second ahead of the person who is floating in space. Yay.

Roger wrote:

"The lastone, and this one is a piece of cake, everybody knows this one, -What is life?"

---------------- There are others on this board who are more qualified to answer that. They seem to have it all figured out just ask one of them.

Roger wrote:

"Steve,
I got another math quiss for you, if you get 1350 ratio to the Dollar, how how much will it cost you per million , in Dollars."

-------------------- NO IDEA!!!!!!! MY ABACUS JUST BROKE!!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!-----------------

Seriously though, thanks for the info Roger and Okie.

-- August 12, 2006 6:00 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Steve:
I really don't know about the rest of the questions, but in relationship to the ping pong balls answer...I can confirm that by my experience in the bathtub....

-- August 12, 2006 7:12 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Do y'all want to see something entertaining regarding dinars?? How bout a 1:1 Reval??

http://money.wn.com/?amount=1&c1=USD&c2=IQD&s1=&s2=

-- August 12, 2006 8:19 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

Really good answers, well at least you're really good at answering them, sounds good anyway.

1.Baloon. because of it's boyancy, will try to go upwards. In a very fast decellaration, the athmosphere inherent inertia will overcome the gravitaional forces, and will go forward, the Helium filled baloon floats because of the pressure diference in the media it's floating around in.
For a short moment you will create an athmosphere with the pressure gradients increasing in the direction of the previous travel.

Therefore: the baloon will go backwards.

The pinpong balls,

The answer NO is correct but not because of the reasons you are giving.

I give you a little bit more time to figure that one out, so you can save your reputation here.

Third question,

A bit tricker, you're assuming that a person is floating around in weightless condition by being in orbit. No, he is floating around in space in no motion relative to the earth. Could be beyond Saturn. With other words, one person is experiencing 1 G constant acceleration by standing on earth, one person is experiencing 0 acceleration. Now you should be able to get it.

I give you a bit more time.

Oh yes, we all know what life is, and have a lot of ways to live it. Some can kill for their ways.

Carl,

I cant even start to imagine what you're doing with ping pong balls in the bathtub, given the earlier discussion with toys and dolls... I'm not even sure I want to go there but I'm sure you had fun.

-- August 12, 2006 8:36 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Taylor,

Got the hickups, and do a fast check with the CBI official board. Bummer, CBI was right.

-- August 12, 2006 8:41 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

Sorry I need new glasses, you DID state that you assumed that the person in space was motionless, well, in that case you really need to check this over again.

The clue is in the acceleration.

-- August 12, 2006 8:49 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

Funny, I'm also broke

-- August 12, 2006 8:50 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Taxmama,

Seems like this Dr Q have some insight, he did say this Finance minister caracter would be replaced. Point scored in my eyes. Any more news from that direction?

-- August 12, 2006 9:26 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Steve:
I don't know about fun, but the boyancy was spectacular....

-- August 12, 2006 9:47 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Carl Carl Carl..........

-- August 12, 2006 9:59 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

http://www.kuna.net.kw/Home/Story.aspx?Language=en&DSNO=895756

Cancellation of USD 120 billion of Iraq''s debt by end of next year --

ECO-IRAQ-DEBT
Cancellation of USD 120 billion of Iraq's debt by end of next year --

governor BAGHDAD, Aug 12 (KUNA) -- Up to USD 120 billion of the total Iraqi debt is expected to be cancelled by the end of next year, the Iraqi central bank governor Dr. Snan Al-Shabibi said Saturday.

In a lecture he presented at the Iraqi Foreign Ministry, the governor said that it is hoped that USD 120 billion of the total Iraqi debt will be cancelled before 2008 with only USD 20 billion being left.

He indicated that Iraqi diplomacy will be playing a role to achieve this objective.

As for the reasons of the accumulation of Iraqi debt, reaching about USD 146 billion, he said these include financing the wars the former Iraqi regime engaged in, including the eight-year war with Iran.

He affirmed that the new Iraq cannot carry out new development and construction projects if these debts are not cancelled.

The governor added that USD 50 billion of total Iraqi debt to Paris Club members had been cancelled, as this would be of an advantage for them too due to the investment opportunities that would be available in Iraq in the future.

Wow!! A Country with no debt... Sounds like $$ to me!

-- August 12, 2006 10:43 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Taylor,

It seems like the US is really taking care of their victims.

After WW2 Japan and Germany almost looked like they were the winners.

If the trend is the same with Iraq, it can be assumed that they will be very prosperous.

That will lead to the possibility of a poor 3rd world country that have no means to build up it's country, will have a secret cabinet meeting where they decide to go to war with the US , and after one hour give up, then the US have to occipy that country and pay for the development. Could be business in this

-- August 12, 2006 11:03 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

What exactly do you do when you occipy a country?

-- August 12, 2006 11:05 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Steve;

NO, that comment was not from an attitude of someone being "beneath" me. The Scripture I quoted from Jesus was not teaching anything illogical or prideful.

You see.. when a person commits the unpardonable sin according to Scripture - such as when the Pharasees looked at Jesus - who was God Incarnate, God come down to earth, in the flesh - and said "this man casts out devils by the Prince of the Devils" (Matt 12:24). When a person does that, looks God full in the face and says His powers are Satanic and evil - that is unpardonable sin (see Mark 3:22, 28-30). The reason it is unpardonable is totally logical and not unreasonably "spiritual" or weird. It is because saying this is saying God IS of the Devil (evil), and a person convinced of this will therefore never turn to Him (who would turn to someone demonic to be saved? totally illogical). They will therefore die without God (go to hell - which is merely a place where God is not - a place for those who reject Him in this life.)

Similarly, to say "quote: "if I see the promotion of religion, which I have defined as the censorship of the truth" - saying this says that religion is a censorship of the Truth and thus against the truth. To say religion is against the Truth does the same thing as what these Pharasees did - it says faith in God is following lies (untruth) and because of that a person who believes this then can never turn to the Truth (faith in God) because they honestly believe it is a lie. Logically, they are unable to turn to the Truth (faith in God) which they believe is a censorship of the truth (thus against the truth - a lie). The only logical response left is to acknowledge that the testimony given concerning God (religion) is rejected and "shake off the dust from your feet." Nothing prideful or thinking others beneath you about it. Unless that person can recover themselves from that "snare of the devil" (as Scripture calls it) by recanting/repenting/turning from that error which leads to eternal death (eternal separation from God in hell) they will not end up going to be with God in heaven (saved).

Christianity teaches that the crux of the matter is this - rejecting God in this life leads to the next life being lived in a place without Him (and that life is forever) . Each of us chooses in this life where they want to go. A person rejecting God as the Pharasees did by calling God Himself of the Devil, or calling religion (faith in God) that which is against or "censorship of the truth" (a lie) instead of BEING THE TRUTH is an unfortunate choice which also leads away from God, salvation and heaven - according to the Scripture.

People choosing by their own freewills to reject God and His way (remember Jesus' famous quote: "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the father but by Me?") are choosing to have an eternity without God. The Bible teaches that they do regret that choice when they go to hell. They curse God, they swear, they cry - the Bible says there is much "weeping and gnashing of teeth" on account of their poor choice. However, no matter how much they blame God in that unholy place, the truth remains - they chose in this life that they wished to reject God from their lives (for whatever seemingly logical reason at the time; but we know it was wrong no matter how logical it appeared to them at that time - Pro 21:30 There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD.), therefore, they chose to live in eternity without Him. Jesus said:

Mat 13:49-50 So it will be at the end of the world. The angels will come forth, and separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (see also Luke 13:28)

There doesn't appear to be any second chances in that Scripture.. or extra reincarnations to work out the "bad karma", either.

As far as who God considers among those who are wicked..
When God commits to Holy writ the statement that a certain kind of person is a fool, that might incline you to believe that He might class such persons among those He calls "wicked":

Psa 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt...

Sara.

-- August 13, 2006 1:17 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

In the old days in the times Jesus walked the earth, the concept of God was the self awareness, Jawe.

Jesus said: I am the way, the truth and no one comes to the father (God = Jawe = I AM)but by me.

Today you buy T-shirts saying Jesus is the way, the life and the truth.

God concept was :I'AM ...

I am the way, the truth and no one comes to yourself except through yourself.

Ofcourse that concept will make YOU responsible, and we can't have that.

-- August 13, 2006 1:36 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Roger!
You let the little secret out...by saying "YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE"
A lot of individuals like to defer by saying such things as...

"The Devil made me do it..."
"Why is God doing this to me?"
"It's God's Will"
"Its Satan on the move"
"God is really going to be mad if we don't...(fill in the blank)
"We are fighting for God"
"God is on our side"
"They are full of Satan"
"I don't like my life, why has God done this too me?"
Most go through life blindly never taking responsibility for themselves..never recognizing

Every action has a reaction...
Every thought has an affect
The Universe is the equalizer
That the greatest things we have on this earthly plane are our THOUGHTS-WORDS-DEEDS
These are the paints every individual uses to create the portrait of each ones life...

Only we are responsible....and the end result of our actions will be experienced...don't like the experience...just change the thoughts-words-deeds...Every idividual has been given those tools....some never pick them up. some use them to destroy, some use to create

I believe Hazbollah leaders are now saying to themselves....Just What The Heck Was I Thinking?

-- August 13, 2006 8:55 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Personal accountability has its ultimate expression in being held responsible for our choice in life.. to accept or reject God as the ultimate reality and center of that life.

There are consequences to all our actions and choices for which we alone are held responsible, not God.

Being responsible implies accountability for our actions.. to whom? To ourselves? If the (God = Jawe = I AM) is only yourself - if it is true as Roger says that "I am the way, the truth and no one comes to yourself except through yourself", then the ultimate judge is YOU, not God.

But what of the Hezbolla who is happy as a pig in slop over what we would agree are their wrong choices - are they then only accountable to their own consciences for their thoughts and words and deeds?

Mat 12:36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
Rom 2:5-5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "will render to each one according to his deeds":

This says we have Another to whom we are responsible who is not our own consciences. A serial killer may be at peace with their own soul over what they have done, just as a Jihadi may be pleased with their own acts of murder.. but there will be a final judgement that neither of them will escape, and they are subject to another arbiter, whether they like it or not.

It is like the Pharasees which I spoke to you of who rejected Jesus (remember His disciples were all Jews, this is not of all the Jews, but was true of those who called Jesus 'of the devil'):

Joh 16:2 They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service.
Joh 16:3 And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me.

Who is to discern which of the two is right in this passage? The one who "thinks he does God a service" by killing someone in God's name, or those who are killed? Just as with the Spanish Inquisition, Jesus here says that it is those who are killed who are "right" according to God, and in the final judgement, it will be God who is the final arbiter of truth, not those who represent a murdering church.

Sara.

-- August 13, 2006 9:41 AM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Valerio wrote:
Nelly B

You said: "I don't concider myself well studied".

Well there it is now!

As far as the question about how much time passes on earth while traveling at the speed of light for 24 hours. I think it would be better answered by someone well studied in the theory of relalivity, which has yet to be disproven. I think their answer might be much different.
END OF QUOTE

What I actually said was:

"I don't consider myself well studied, but I'll have a stab at this if you don't mind. I think Roger with his knowledge of quantum physics is better qualified, but I'll try with simple reasoning..."

Firstly, if you are going to quote me, please don't add in your own spelling mistakes. I can make enough of those myself, thanks :o)

Secondly, I wanted a stab at answering your question, using simple reasoning, not scientific theories in this case. I predicted that someone here would come up with a different mathmatical result; a result which many (most) would consider more correct.

Steve came up with a mathematical answer, but it was not actually the answer to the one which was set, due to the maths not working if you were to travel AT light speed. No-one (known to us on Earth) has ever travelled at light speed to prove or disprove whether this is even possible.

Thirdly, you say that the theory of relativity has not yet been disproven. Neither has it been proven. Remember that, although widely accepted, it is only a theory; a theory that has discrepencies with other established theories... I draw you to a part of Roger's post above:

Right now we're looking for the next Einstein, that can combine and define the overall physical universe. Einstein himself was spending last part of his life looking for the "Universal Equation" but it eluded him.

The three basic fundamentals we have, Newtons Principia, Einsteins Reliativity, and Quantum Mechanics, all works and is acknowledged as the tools for the physical universe, but it is a knowledge amongst any and all, in any of the gendre, that the three basic platforms do not fully agree.

There is discrepancies, like two particles being in two places at the same time.

If these established theories are all correct, how can they not agree with each other?

-- August 13, 2006 10:54 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I can't remember(the mind is a terrible thing to lose) if this has been posted before, but it's interesting reading....

================================================================================
When officially introduced at the end of the British mandate (1932), the dinar
[consisting of 1,000 fils or 20 dirhams] was equal to, and was linked to, the British
pound sterling, which at that time was equal to US$4.86. Iraqi dinar (ID) equaled
US$4.86 between 1932 and 1949 and after devaluation in 1949, equaled US$2.80
between 1949 and 1971. Iraq officially uncoupled the dinar from the pound sterling as
a gesture of independence in 1959, but the dinar remained at parity with the pound
until the British unit of currency was again devalued in 1967.

One Iraqi dinar remained equal to US$2.80 until December 1971, when major
realignments of world currencies began. Upon the devaluation of the United States
dollar in 1973, the Iraqi dinar appreciated to US$3.39. It remained at this level until
the outbreak of the Iran-Iraq War in 1980. In 1982 Iraq devalued the dinar by 5
percent, to a value equal to US$3.22, and sustained this official exchange rate
without additional devaluation despite mounting debt. In early 1988, the official
dinar-dollar exchange rate was still ID1 to US$3.22; however, with estimates of the
nation's inflation rate ranging from 25 percent to 50 percent per year in 1985 and
1986, the dinar's real transaction value, or black market exchange rate, was far
lower-- only about half the 1986 official rate.

The Iraqi dinar was worth $US 3.20 before the United Nations embargo that followed
Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait. By August 2002 it was trading at just below 2000 to
the US dollar, and by mid-April 2003 it had slipped to anywhere between 3500 and
4000 against the dollar. In July 2003 one US dollar equaled about 1,500 Iraqi dinars.
Nearly all the bank notes issued after the 1991 Gulf War were without watermark or
metal line due to technical difficulties, which is why so many forgeries took place.

http://www.dinar-into-dollars.com/dinar_history.html

-- August 13, 2006 11:17 AM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Sara Madgid wrote:

Rob N;

I suggest Matt 10:11-16, shake the dust off your feet as the testimony is definitely rejected and disrespected.

Mat 10:14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.

No sense beating a dead dog, let them have the last say (which they accuse me of). I have had enough of their disrespect.

Sara.
PS Luke 4:24-27

Please don't leave a mess on my door mat :o)

-- August 13, 2006 11:37 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Nelly;

Mat 25:40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'

Sara.

-- August 13, 2006 11:49 AM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Sara Said:
Psa 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt...

Ouch... Sticks and stones...

Another case of Christianity looking down upon us non-believers.

I'm happy with my moral values thank you very much, which is more than should be said by some representatives of the church:
http://www.freethinktank.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1547&Itemid=9

Those that live in glass houses...

-- August 13, 2006 12:08 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Israel approves truce, continues barrage
By RAMIT PLUSHNICK-MASTI, Associated Press Writer Aug 13 2006

JERUSALEM - After a stormy debate Sunday, Israel's Cabinet approved a Mideast cease-fire, agreeing to silence the army's guns in less than 24 hours.

The 24-0 vote, with one abstention, came a day after the Lebanese government approved the agreement and Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah gave his grudging consent. The truce is to take effect Monday morning.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060813/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel

-- August 13, 2006 12:19 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Sara:
From your side of the fence you believe Hezballoh can expect punishment from God later on...from my side of the fence the Universe does make the Hezballoh wait until judgement...their actions created reaction and the end result is their present experience...
Yep! I believe the Universe is in the process of teaching them a lesson...

-- August 13, 2006 12:49 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Nelly;

Who is the Church, according to Jesus? Was that man in the article who committed such sin ("Paedophile priest was given post at school for the deaf") really one of God's own Church? Did he do the will of the Father in heaven?

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Jesus is the final judge.. even of those who profess to be Christians such as this man in the article you quote. I am not certain he will come up on the right side of God's Law, any more than those who were representatives of that same Church during the Middle Ages who tortured people and ripped their tongues out during the Inquistion, or put people on galley ships to serve out their days in misery. In both of these cases (paedophile priest/The Inquisition), they just didn't seem to me to be exhibiting Christlike behavior, did it to you?

Mat 24:50-511 the master of that servant will come.. and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Note that hypocrites end up with the same "weeping and gnashing of teeth" I spoke of earlier. Isn't it good to know that righteousness will prevail in the prosecution of correct judgement against such evils and that no one will get away with such horrible sins (eternally)? That goes for Saddam and Hitler and their followers, too.. NO ONE escapes the completely righteous and impartial judgement of God, whether they profess to Him "Lord, Lord" or not. And He will say 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' to ANY who have violated the Moral Laws of His Universe, from Pope to Peasant - to a King or Priest.

LAW does not change.. no matter who violates it. The only question we is.. do you think there is a Heavenly Lawgiver and ENFORCER, or are you going to be blissfully unaware and unwilling to accept there are rules of the road until you get pulled over and given a one way ticket (in eternity)? You only have one shot at it here.. I hope you will still consider Him before it is too late because there are no exceptions - not for those who profess to Him "Lord, Lord" or those who never knew or professed Him in this life at all.

What is it that Monty Python said? "Nobody expects a Spanish Inquisition!" Expected or not, it did inevitably come... consider if there is something worse coming your way you are not expecting.. I suggest strongly that you do all you can to escape and avoid it.

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great asalvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him;

Sara.

-- August 13, 2006 1:04 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Roger wrote:

"For a short moment you will create an athmosphere with the pressure gradients increasing in the direction of the previous travel.

"Therefore: the baloon will go backwards."

-------------- Your assumption is that the gradient will be of sufficient force to cause the baloon to go backwards. Not a bad assumption since you're talking about a closed system with an airplane being the mass behind the momentum. I have quite an imagination and saw perhaps a thick rubber baloon of sufficent mass perhaps throwing a crimp into your problem. Also I failed to take into account speed. You would need to be taveling at quite a speed in order to create that gradient.

Roger wrote:

"The pinpong balls,

The answer NO is correct but not because of the reasons you are giving."

-------------- There is another explanation, but the fact that buoyancy is inherently dependent on gravity is the most straight forward one IMO. I like to keep it simple.

Roger wrote:

"Third question,

A bit tricker, you're assuming that a person is floating around in weightless condition by being in orbit. No, he is floating around in space in no motion relative to the earth. Could be beyond Saturn. With other words, one person is experiencing 1 G constant acceleration by standing on earth, one person is experiencing 0 acceleration. Now you should be able to get it."

--------------------- Didn't really understand your question here. But even as stated, the acceleration is a non issue. You must take the earth and the person standing on it to be in a non-inertial frame. Gravity matters not because the net acceleration acting on a person standing on earth is zero (and hence the net force, by definition, is also zero). This leaves the inertial frame as the relevant point (the angular velocity of the earth) which I gave as 29.8 km/sec. From here its straightforward.

Roger, just exactly how did you come to afford all of those dinar? Wish I could afford a few more, but who knows. Perhaps what I have will be plenty. Cheriiooooosssss...............

-- August 13, 2006 1:15 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Carl, my friend, I do not mean to seem harsh or critical of you. You know from our discussions that I believe as you do, that the principle of sowing and reaping is inbuilt into God's universe. But sometimes the wicked seem to prosper and not be punished in this life - such as when Saddam's power was at its zenith. Surely at that time it would have seemed that there was no reaping happening upon him for the evils he was doing?

Psa 37:35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.

And now, even though Saddam has been removed from power, his punishment for the degree of atrocity he has committed is truly very limited. The very worst they can do to him is take his miserable life. But God will REPAY each evil he did in eternity. Killing one person is justly punished by that person's life being forfeited. But killing masses of people and torturing and raping.. how can that ever be repaid only in this life? The debt is far too great to repay in one lifetime... too great to "reap" that which is sown (owed).

I believe the Bible is true about a final judgement when God will judge all men and their secrets. Not a mere sowing and reaping for this life alone, but an eternal repayment upon the soul for their deeds. I do not believe it will be a series of lifetimes of working the evil out with Saddam finally making it to heaven, but that at death there is a final punishment where he will pay eternally for all the evil acts he has done. Justice demands that there must be repayment or there is no "reaping" of that which is sown. You simply believe it is a reaping in a kind of eternal purgatory of life after life of penance (reincarnation), whereas I believe the Bible that there is one death followed by judgement, that it is appointed for men to die ONCE, then after that God's judgement.. a judgement which judges even that which is presently secret and unknown.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ

Sara.

-- August 13, 2006 1:40 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

As long as the other guys are doing their Godly thing I guess it's ok for us to do our thing, I suppose.

(I have a tendency to get drawn into the God stuff on occasion though)

Q1. Yes the baloon will go backwards. Your answer...yes it will move...well ok one point.

Q2. The pressure, weight and gravity, is they key components, but the real reason the pinpong balls wont work is that Carl would have been there snatching them for his bathtub experiments.

No, the boyancy of each ping pong ball in the water is dependent on the pressure difference of the water between, to the bottom most and top most part of the ping pong ball, thats only represents about an inch and a half about. That will be the "boyancy power" of one ping pong ball.

However, the pingpong ball that will enter the barrel at the bottom, will at one time in its position have to be half in, half out, the upper side will be exposed to the water in the barrel, and the underside will be exposed to the atmosphere.

That ping pong ball will at that moment have to fight the water pressure representative of a watercolumn of the length of the WHOLE barrel.

That waterpressure will be more than the combined boyancy of any ping pong ball sitting on the string in the water.

You said what forces was involved but not how it worked, well you're a bit glibberish student, but ok two points.

Q3. I can see however that you have one missunderstanding when it comes to the Theory of Relativity.

Your answer involvwed the speed of earth as it rotates, long calculations and elaborate things about the speed of light.

You did however give the right answer, but I dont even have a clue how you arrived at it. All I can say seems more like a lucky shot, because some of the statements in your response needs a bit of re-examination.

You need to leave Newton.

Any object, like a person standing on earth, is under the influence of acceleration.

You are under a constant 1G acceleration. Acceleration and gravity IS the same. (The cause is nondescriptive, could be a rocket, or a not yet found force. whatever)

Any accelerating object in relativity to a non accelerating object will have a slowdown in it's clock.

So here is one of the absurdities that is not easily understood, you can have two objects in a fixed position, like a man in space without gravitational influence, and one standing on earth under the earths gravitational influence, the distance between those two is fixed, but one is accelerating.

To read more about this you got to go to General Relativity developed by Einstein about 1915, it's a bit more complex than the Special Relativity issued 1905, but it will explain it.

To make as simple statement as possible:

Stand still, and you will have the "normal" clock.

Accelerate and you will have a slow clock.

Speed it up, and the clock will slow down accordingly.

Worth notice here is how the first GPS satellite system almost got into a debacle because of controversy about the General Relativity.

When the first system was developed in the late 60s early 70s, there was still some highly paid engineers, that doubted the effects of Relativity.

They insisted on a system with a switch, where they could turn on and off the calcuations for the Relativistics effects , in case the effects didnt materialized, they also insisted to have it on OFF, and only IN CASE it would happen, they would turn it ON.

The system compensated for what I described here.

An object under accleration have a slower clock than an object not under the influence.

So as earth have their "normal" clock slower, the clock in space appear , for us faster,.....do you follow?, and by adding speed, for the sattelite, the clock will slow down relative to us.

1.So add time for the sattelite being in a non gravity envionment.

2.Deduct a small fraction of time accdording to the sattelites speed relative to us.

Anyhow, won't confuse it no more.

Once the satellite system was in place, it became obvious pretty immediately that with the adjutment switch on OFF, the sattelite was getting inaccurate on earth measurements, in the order of a couple of hundred miles a day.

A quick switch to ON and a recalibration, and the system was steady spot on.

One more proof that Einstein had it right, so far no one have been able to punch a hole in the Relativity Theory.

I really admire that man, he would have been a household name even if he would not have come up with the Theory of Relativity, his first paper he issued explained and kickstarted Quantum Mechanics, by defining electromagnetic energy in Quantas, (Packets, now called photons).Max Planck had some years earlier used quantizised units to explain a phenomenon called "black body radiation", but his use was merely as a mathematical tool. Einstein started the Quantum Mechanics, by explaining and defining the basics.

Other gigants took over the Quantum Mechanics, and it lead to a lot of theoretical discussion, dissagreements and fun laughs between Einstein, and the Quantum Mechanic league.

It's not really true that he was an average student because he was slow in learning, he just wasn't interested in the subjects taught in school, and was sitting spending his time in the library, and digging in files.

He was a bid defiant and arrogant in his ways to the teachers, and they hated him for that. He didnt get good grades.

It must be understood that at that time, physics was an almost dead subject, with not too many students or followers, the fixed idea was that everything in the physics world have been discovered, and there was no more territory to chart, and physics was merely a teachers job.

He had a low paying job in a patent office in Bern Switzerland, when he at age 26 issued a series of revoutionary papers, in the meanwhile as he was doing his clerical job, living in a small apartment, with his wife, changing diapers on his newborn.

They dont make people like that no more, we're too hypnotized by a screen shooting down space invaders, trying to protect the princess from the three dark forces.

How I can afford all those Dinars? I dont have a clue, I just made it happen I guess. I'm doing pretty good, and have no family, so I'm in a position that makes it possible.

If I loose it all, I will still be in a position better than average, so I'm not going to cry.

I like the game, better odds than Lotto.

What are you doing in life ( careful it's a blog site, if you get into a dissagreement with someone, it will come back in black paint mixed with rotten eggs.) I can see you're pretty good in math. Thats an area of my life I always have had a hard time with. I admire people that have those special skills, it seems so easy for them. I got to have a calculator for the simplest tasks.

Okie,

Yes the stuff you posted is interesing reading, my belief though is that the situation we have in Iraq is so far away from what has once been, thqt we're more talking about a newborn baby than a continoum of an old bubba. However, the data you shown is not to be dissmissed, just bacuse of that, it will give probably, together with the current currency values from other oil producing countries the only thing we have to compare and try to get prognosis out of, add on into the mix the current situation in Iraq, and all the variables end up with a big....I dont have a clue.

No really Okie, I have tried to weigh this against that, considering this in proportion to that, it just gives me a headache. It will be what it will be.

It is a slow flow of news right now, that I can interpret that they are working behind the doors, and something will come.

I read last night a couple of pages back on the TB blog, just to see what the scene was then, it was the same as now, only this site saw any and all movement as a sign on an RV back then, as well as we're looking for signs now.

All the argument seems logical att the time, election done, now they RV, first prime minister, oh big deal, now they RV, the first Iraq provisional govement, a new prime minister, new ministers here and there, new goverment, new elected goverment, now they MUST RV.

I think they will RV but when I don't know, seems to be close but then again, that's what I WANT to believe.

It's a waiting game, and that kind of game is not for everybody, I can see Okie you do have a longer attention span than most, because reading from the past, a lot of people have dropped out, been burned out, lost interest or whatever, but you are firmly planted, so I dont think a lesson in patience is for you, you already have it.

-- August 13, 2006 4:38 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

OK gang....

I give up... This sight has gotten way off topic for me... I think the addition of all the "yelling" did it for me!

For those of you that feel the same... Good bye and good luck.

Outlaw

-- August 13, 2006 4:51 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Carl,

Yes, ultimately we are completely responsible.

If you dissect a car "accident" into it'stime parts, you very often will get a person loudly explaining why he was not responsible, very often you find that the loudest and most upset is the one that have the highest responsibility in the accident. The word accident actually implies that it JUST happen.

If you would have a camera in each car, you could very easy see who caused it, and who is lying.

The viewpoint that I AM RESPONSIBLE is so darn hard to take, it's easier to take the viewpoint that the world is agianst me, or God wants it that way, but me, oh no I'm small and insignificant and have no part in this universe other than what the genes, or God is telling me to do.

It's a very hard viewpoint to take, admittedly, no one is perfect, I guess in the original Islam world that is the Jihad.

Your beloved wife walks away from you, you get fired from your dreamjob under false reasons, you got badly burned in a business deal.

If you really dig in to the exact history of all these events, you did something, you said something, you witheld something, you had bad timing, you overwhelmed someone, maybe even on a timeline where you have forgot about it, but an old insult is freshly burning in a mans mind years and years after, and he wont hire you now thirty years later.

Funny, he wouldn't hire me, I've known im for years, and I'm perfect for the job, what an ass.

Well if I'm not hired by this ass, it might as well be Gods will that I do something less.

No, you had someting to do with this, it's not fate.

If God created you, you are uiltimately not responible, God is.

I think Lance described it very well when Ahmed crashed his truck and did damage, and didnt want to take responsibility.

Any and all reason was explained and any reason was countered with fact that it could not be that way.

It came to the point where Ahmed did not have any more explanations, and now he had two choices.

Take responsibility for it, or continue to be not responislbe.

So he creadte God, blamed it on him, knowing you can not drag God to court, as he is not known to have a body. He exist because you say so, and HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING.

"I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND NO ONE WILL COME TO YOURSELF EXCEPT THROUGH YOURSELF"

As long as you say that someone else is responsible, you will never get to God. (Yourself= jawe= I'am)

To the same degree you say something else is the cause, to the same degree you will be effect.

I just cant understand why it would be so hard for a Christian to just reread the Bible with that concept, I think I could, without going through a religious crisis.

-- August 13, 2006 5:44 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Outlaw,

It's slow on the news, just hang around.

-- August 13, 2006 5:46 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Sara Said:

Similarly, to say "quote: "if I see the promotion of religion, which I have defined as the censorship of the truth" - saying this says that religion is a censorship of the Truth and thus against the truth. To say religion is against the Truth does the same thing as what these Pharasees did - it says faith in God is following lies (untruth) and because of that a person who believes this then can never turn to the Truth (faith in God) because they honestly believe it is a lie. Logically, they are unable to turn to the Truth (faith in God) which they believe is a censorship of the truth (thus against the truth - a lie). The only logical response left is to acknowledge that the testimony given concerning God (religion) is rejected and "shake off the dust from your feet." Nothing prideful or thinking others beneath you about it. Unless that person can recover themselves from that "snare of the devil" (as Scripture calls it) by recanting/repenting/turning from that error which leads to eternal death (eternal separation from God in hell) they will not end up going to be with God in heaven (saved).

I refer you back to my previous post: http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#122995

Where I said:

"As I said in a recent post, perhaps it is better that I call myself non-religious, rather than a true Atheist. I am not bitter to the thought of God. I entertain the possibility that I am wrong and I enjoy the viewpoint of others to help me to determine and ratify my own beliefs. Generally, the more I hear from people that follow a prescribed religion, the more I feel they follow the thinking of others, rather than having 'faith' in their own thoughts and independent conclusions".

"Where I am bitter is when someone under the guise or shield of a particular faith speaks that it is the unequivocal truth, or fact that 'their' God exists and then encourage, promote or preach to others that they should also follow this faith".

"There is no tangible proof that any god or gods exist, therefore to state that a God or Gods do exist, without question, is falsehood. To promote the belief of falsehood is to discourage free thinking and to discourage free thinking is to censor the truth".

Take it in context. I have a problem with people promoting something as the unequivocal truth, when it is not. End of story.

Adj. 1. unequivocal - admitting of no doubt or misunderstanding; having only one meaning or interpretation and leading to only one conclusion; "unequivocal evidence"; "took an unequivocal position"; "an unequivocal success"; "an unequivocal promise"; "an unequivocal (or univocal) statement"

I already believe in eternal death and have no wish to be with God, so please do not try to be my saviour. (or mess on my door mat) I have accepted my fate. If the 'cost' for this 'sacrifice' is that I can have the freedom the make up my own mind and not follow a prescribed scripture during my life on Earth, then I am more than willing to pay the price.

-- August 13, 2006 5:56 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Hey Outlaw...

Just read your recent post after posting my last...

You've stuck around this long. Don't let a little 'bickering' put you off.

At least check back soon.

Peace all.

-- August 13, 2006 6:21 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Yeah Outlaw,

Right it is off topic, but it's no Dinar News of importance happening, we have dissected , diagnosed and analyzed the Dinars to death, I'll be happy if you come up with a new angle.

There is nothing really more to do other than wait, and fill the blog with God, Einstein, and what not.

If you' think it's too far off topic for your taste, well just skip it, no harm in that.

Do whatever you've got to do but at least in my eyes you're welcome back. We have had a tango for two some time ago, but thats water under the bridge. Plus it's so darn long ago, I dont know of what other yelling you are refering to, I cant see anyone yelling around here. It's admittedly a very slow and perhaps boring site , but if you want to fill it with a topic while we wait for Dinar News, please dont hesitate.

Ah, Outlaw, you'll be back, I see you later.

-- August 13, 2006 6:40 PM ∞

---

Ron wrote:

outlaw i look forward to your posts.one vet to another it's nothing,hang in here with myself and others.good luck to all and iraq.

-- August 13, 2006 6:55 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Outlaw don't get your nose all out of joint just because we have a good jaw about differing views about the "meaning of life"..

Why not bring up stuff which is interesting from the Dinar world, then, outlaw.. like.. hmmm.. what is new or interesting.. oh, yes.. did you see that converter that TAYLOR posted? His post here:

http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#123045

Converter here:

http://money.wn.com/?amount=1&c1=USD&c2=IQD&s1=&s2=

Did you see that it seems to be new and point to a 1:1 RV? (Maybe in the near future?) Just coincidence, or a hoax.. or what?
No one seemed to comment on it, but it is a very interesting thing to speculate over..
What is your take on it? TAYLOR? Others on the board?

Sara.

-- August 13, 2006 7:54 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Roger said:

"No, the boyancy of each ping pong ball in the water is dependent on the pressure difference of the water between, to the bottom most and top most part of the ping pong ball, thats only represents about an inch and a half about. That will be the "boyancy power" of one ping pong ball."

-------------- Zero gravity = ________ pressure = __________ boyancy power? (Remember, keep it simple: pressure = Force per unit area....)

Roger said:

"You did however give the right answer, but I dont even have a clue how you arrived at it. All I can say seems more like a lucky shot, because some of the statements in your response needs a bit of re-examination.

You need to leave Newton.

Any object, like a person standing on earth, is under the influence of acceleration.

You are under a constant 1G acceleration. Acceleration and gravity IS the same. (The cause is nondescriptive, could be a rocket, or a not yet found force. whatever)

Any accelerating object in relativity to a non accelerating object will have a slowdown in it's clock."

---------------- Heh.....I could say the same about you and relativity. Fact is Roger, you can use relativity to explain the phenomenon, but why bother? Yes you are correct, we are under acceleration, but the net effect is zero. If I had net acceleration, I would never be still in relation to the earth, I'd be moving at x velocity relative to the earth. Which when I am standing still is nonsense.

Look at a famous problem called the twin paradox. There is no net acceleration here either (except to slow the ship down and speed it up initially, which of cours brings the net to zero once again). Gravity is a non factor in a spaceship light years from earth, yet the same effect would occur. Again Roger, not saying you're wrong, just saying that you can keep it simple and still arrive at the correct conclusion.

Roger said:

"So here is one of the absurdities that is not easily understood, you can have two objects in a fixed position, like a man in space without gravitational influence, and one standing on earth under the earths gravitational influence, the distance between those two is fixed, but one is accelerating."

----------------- Yeah really. By definition an accelerating reference frame is non-inertial and therefore the basic laws do not apply (this is a big part of relativity). Again though, net effect is the part missing. Acceleration is present, but there are two accelerations present, Ill let you figure out the other one.

I am very impressed with your knowledge of relativity. Do you have experience in other areas of physics as well? I am always looking for people to bounce ideas off of.

As for Dinar ...... RV RV RV RV RV RV RV RV RV RV RV RV RV RV !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- August 13, 2006 8:05 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Iraq announces capture of major Al Qaida leaders
Sunday, August 13, 2006

BAGHDAD — Iraq has captured 17 Al Qaida leaders over the past week.

Officials said the Iraq Army and security forces have arrested 17 senior Al Qaida operatives in central Iraq. They said another Al Qaida commander was killed in a U.S.-Iraqi operation.

"My message to the terrorists and death squads is 'Your ally is failure,'" Iraqi National Security Adviser Muwaffaq Al Rubaie said.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/06/front2453959.9381944444.html

-- August 13, 2006 8:57 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Let's see... Capture of major Al Queda people.. 120 Billion in cancelled debt.. Hopefully end of Israel-Lebanon war at 5am.. Lots of information of the positive moving forward of the dinar and economy.. Could those speculators actually be right when they are saying this week will be the RV?? I'm not trying to get my hopes up because it has happened before. But I've got my fingers crossed. Check out the links in aboutdinar.com and you'll see what I'm talking about. Personally, I don't believe an RV will happen in October for 1 simple reason; Its ramadon and Muslims won't be working on much during their holiday season. It would be the best day of my life to close up my practice and say hello to living on interest :)

-- August 13, 2006 9:36 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Na, Steve,

You are under constant acceleration, if you are standing still, and under gravity of 1 g, you are accelerating with one G.

Let me explain a bit more on this.

Imagine you are sitting in an space ship, you can not see out.

You are in space, and lit a rocket, and now you are accelerating with the force of ONE G.

That force is exactly the same as if you were sitting still on earth, and the gravity is ONE G.

IT DOESNT MATTER if you now look out and see that all the other stuff is also sitting there, the frame is also experiencing ONE G.

You ARE under ONE G of acceleration.

Acceleration and gravity IS the same.

Here is next thing you will roll you eyes at. If you were falling, in that moment you are EXPERIENCING NO GRAVITATION. It is not correct to say that zero gravity is simulated inside this space ship.

For an observer outside it is correct to say that the gravitational field is there, causing both the person and the spaceship to fall, but the person in the space ship will take the spaceship as his frame of reference, and say that the whole universe is accelerating toward him.
The field equations are such that when the total situation is described by the observer in the spaceship, the earths gravitational field has dissapeared.

A force field produced by a rocket pushing a spaceship in an acceleration of 1G, have produced its own gravitational field, it does not have the same geometrical structure like a big celestial body but it is a gravitational field nevertheless, and it doesnt matter if a celestial body produces it or a rocket produces it, it is a gravitaional field in where you will experience acceleration.

You are looking at Special Relativity, and the normal Newtonian objections, I would like you to look into General Relativity where GRAVITY and INERTIA is reduced to the same phenomenon.

You can not say that you are under net effect zero because you have your frame with you on earth.

If you are sitting in a spaceship and your only reference is the inside of the space ship, you will experience an acceleration, even though your looking at the walls of the space ship, you can proclaim that the space ship is moving with you, there fore you have net zero acceleration, that is a false statement.

You are under acceleration wether you are in the space ship or on earth.

Come back when you can see how two person can be fixed in position towards each other, one floating in space under no gravity, and the other one standing on the ground experiencing a constant 1G acceleration.

Just by the fact that you are standing on earth under a constant 1G acceleration, will change the clock in your frame of reference in relationship with an object floating in space, under no acceleration (Gravity)

How about this, go to the library and check up General Relativity on this particular subject.

Regarding the ping pong balls. Yes each ping pong ball have boyancy according to Boyles law, no problem there, the weight of the liquid displaces minus the weight of the object describes the boyancy.

Leave the one that is IN the water, look at the one that is just passing INTO the barrel.

The reason it would be easy to assume that the machine WILL work is that all the ping pong balls on a string will pull up the next one, then the next one, and so on, with it's boyancy. So all those ping pong balls floats, we know that, and we know with how much boyancy power we can get from the sum of all of them.

The problem wiith this machine is the very ping pong ball that is about to enter this gizmo at the bottom of the barrel. The force that will be excerted to THAT ping pong ball is the force that will put an end to the hopes of the perpetu mobile , at least in this contraption.

Forget about all the other balls, and look at this particular one just at the moment when it is passing through from the bottom, and it has come to the position where half of the balls sphere is i contact with the water, and half of its sphere is in contact with the outside atmosphere.

At that particular moment the upward force on the ball will be 1 atmosphers pressure from the bottom of the ball.

The top half of the ball will experience a downward force, of atmosphere PLUS a downward force representative of the WEIGHT of the water in a COLUMN the size of the diameter of the pingpong ball, from the bottom of the barrel to the top of the barrel.

As we have two atmospheric pressures, the top and the bottom one being the same, we can cancel those, and the net result is the down ward pressure of the described column of water.

The displaced water volume from the pingpong balls on the string, compared with the volume of water from the water column says that the column of water is greater, and it's down force will hence overcome the boyancy of the ping pong balls.

The machine will stop with one ping pong half way trough the bottom entrance hole.

THATS the answer I was looking for.

It's not just to say : keep it simple and say pressure---boyancy---- and such.

Naa, you're a bit glibb in the answers, but I give you the benefit of the doubt. Howcome you know so much about physics? I'm equally impressed of your knowledge and for my earlier experience in physics, no not at all, I mean not in the academic world anyway. My education is pretty mediocre, I do have an engineers degree in electricity, but that was in the end of the sixties, and I was so stoned all the time, , and playing bass guitarr in a rock n roll band, and needed to know how to connect the loudspeakers, I got out of thet scene pretty quick (fortunately) and have always loved to enhance my knowledge in any and all fields of life.

I can pretty much say I'm a Jack of all trades and Master of none.

-- August 13, 2006 10:17 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Taylor,
Yes you've got a point, the Ramadan is coming up, now I dont have a clue how holy that stuff is down there, but I suppose it is like a month long Christmans where you eat at the end of the day.

I'm not sure, if people are actually working during the Ramadan or if they are home beating their wifes.

Perhaps if Lance is reading this, ...Lance how is things during Ramadan, if an RV would come would the Ramadan be an obstacle , something they would consider doing before or after or , how is the customs of Ramadan,... dont do anything big, stay small or is it work as usual with the exception that they dont eat?

-- August 13, 2006 10:28 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Roger wrote:

"You are under constant acceleration, if you are standing still, and under gravity of 1 g, you are accelerating with one G."

-------------------- I'll go ahead and dispense with the simplicities and break out the abacus again. Roger, I beleive you have your accelerations mixed up. As I was trying to point out earlier, my dispute is not with the fact that you are experiencing an acceleration, my dispute is with the source of that aceleration and the value. Its centripital aceleration which is the important one here, not gravitation. Remember, net effects are what count here. Yes you are under one 1g of accleration but its constant, but the ground exerts and equal force back, hence you don't move. If its your assertion that its the change in position per unit time that makes the problem here (velocity) I would agree with you. But you aren't. Accelerating frames are by definition non-inertial, hence you cannot apply what you are stating to the problem (its on the first few pages of any relativity discussion....). If you say that distance remains constant while one frame is accelerating and one is not, I would ask you to show this in a mathematical proof (and I know relativity does show this to be the case, at relativistic speeds, which is earth is not travelling at). Go ahead and break out any vector calculus or partial differential equations you need to, I'll decipher them in my spare time. Perhaps I missed something. I am open to the possibility that I am wrong.

Roger wrote:

"If you were falling, in that moment you are EXPERIENCING NO GRAVITATION"

Your assertion that objects in free fall are free of the effects of gravity is simply incorrect. Ask yourself what terminal velocity is and how an object is accelerated over time to that point (hint: it might have something to do with the earths mass). One is never free of the effect of gravity, we can only minimize its effects so as to make its relative contribution to any system approach zero. Your understanding of net effects needs polishing perhaps.

As for the second problem, I don' think I ever really fully understood what you were asking, hence my very general answer. Yes what you say makes sense, but what I said did also =). Cheriooossssss........

Man, you were going to school in the sixties Roger??? Were you at Woodstock? J/K

I will contact the bank in Minnesota tomorrow to see if they will offer me a deal on Dinar. I would hope so, once they get your money its legally yours right?

Any more news about the sectarian violence in Iraq? I haven't gotten much from any source since Stryker Brigade showed up in town.......

-- August 14, 2006 12:42 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Actually Roger, I believe I misunderstood the entire question about time. Its hard to follow your writing at times. Hit me with some more problems: pimpmaximus69@hotmail.com. And make them less ambiguous please =)

-- August 14, 2006 1:44 AM ∞

---

SWP steve wrote:

Please have a read on these sites,
www.cbiraq.org
www.usaid.go/iraq
www.rebuild-iraq-expo.com
Iraq.usembassy.gov
military.com

The rebuild site will make you rush out and buy a shed load of dinars.
The main prob I see is a lot of people reading info that is so out of date its history.
Have a good read and then make some coments.
You will need a lot of coffee to read the rebuild site as there is shed loads of it, have a nice day, SWPsteve.

-- August 14, 2006 1:48 AM ∞

---

SWP steve wrote:

Thats www.usaid.gov/iraq

-- August 14, 2006 1:53 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Ramadan is nothing like described below. After waking up from sleeping all day the Muslims gorge on food, go shopping, gorge more food then smoke their "hubbly bubbly" pipes until they pass out in a drug induced sleep.

The only meaning it has for us is the fact that most Muslim Governments will usually announce good news just before Ramadan to keep the natives under control.

Since Ramadan starts on Sept 24, we might get some good news (RV?)on or around that date.

=======================================================================================
Ramadan is the ninth month of the Islamic calendar. Islam uses a lunar calendar—that is, each month begins with the sighting of the new moon. Because the lunar calendar is about 11 days shorter than the solar calendar used elsewhere, Islamic holidays “move” each year. In 2006 Ramadan will begin on Sept. 24.

For more than a billion Muslims around the world—including some 8 million in North America—Ramadan is a “month of blessing” marked by prayer, fasting, and charity. This year Ramadan precedes Christmas and Hanukkah. But while in many places these holidays have become widely commercialized, Ramadan retains its focus on self-sacrifice and devotion to Allah (God).
Muslims believe that during the month of Ramadan, Allah revealed the first verses of the Qur’an, the holy book of Islam. Around 610 A.D., a caravan trader named Muhammad took to wandering the desert near Mecca (in today’s Saudi Arabia) while thinking about his faith. One night a voice called to him from the night sky. It was the angel Gabriel, who told Muhammad he had been chosen to receive the word of Allah. In the days that followed, Muhammad found himself speaking the verses that would be transcribed as the Qur’an.

Muslims practice sawm, or fasting, for the entire month of Ramadan. This means that they may eat or drink nothing, including water, while the sun shines. Fasting is one of the Five Pillars (duties) of Islam. As with other Islamic duties, all able Muslims take part in sawm from about age twelve.

During Ramadan in the Muslim world, most restaurants are closed during the daylight hours. Families get up early for suhoor, a meal eaten before the sun rises. After the sun sets, the fast is broken with a meal known as iftar. Iftar usually begins with dates and sweet drinks that provide a quick energy boost.

Fasting serves many purposes. While they are hungry and thirsty, Muslims are reminded of the suffering of the poor. Fasting is also an opportunity to practice self-control and to cleanse the body and mind. And in this most sacred month, fasting helps Muslims feel the peace that comes from spiritual devotion as well as kinship with fellow believers.

Ramadan ends with the festival of Eid al-Fitr, which in 2006 occurs on Oct. 24. Literally the “Festival of Breaking the Fast,” Eid al-Fitr is one of the two most important Islamic celebrations (the other occurs after the Hajj, or pilgrimage to Mecca). At Eid al-Fitr people dress in their finest clothes, adorn their homes with lights and decorations, give treats to children, and enjoy visits with friends and family.

A sense of generosity and gratitude colors these festivities. Although charity and good deeds are always important in Islam, they have special significance at the end of Ramadan. As the month draws to a close, Muslims are obligated to share their blessings by feeding the poor and making contributions to mosques.

-- August 14, 2006 9:46 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

The killing and capture of the Bad Guys is going good...This is positive news!

=======================================================================================
New security plan established for Baghdad

Published: Sunday, August 13, 2006
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) — The new push by U.S. and Iraqi forces to reverse a rising tide of violence in Baghdad will target four violent "hotspots" in the city, the American general in charge of the plan said Saturday.

Those parts of the city have experienced frequent kidnappings, suicide bombings and revenge killings by Shiites and Sunnis.

Maj. Gen. James Thurman, commander of the Army's 4th Infantry Division, said the renewed push for stability began Aug. 7 in the Dora area of southwestern Baghdad, a notoriously violent part of the city. He said sweeps of Dora neighborhoods had captured 179 people thus far and killed 25 "terrorists."

The other three targeted districts are Mansour and the Ghazaliyah-Shula areas of western Baghdad and the Azamiyah area in the northeast, he said, adding that the goal is to quell the violence and restore ordinary Iraqis' confidence in their government's ability to provide security and basic services.

"I'm confident, based on what I'm seeing right now, that we've got a positive trend here happening," Thurman said in an interview after joining Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in a question-and-answer session with several dozen soldiers, sailors and airmen at Camp Liberty.

"We've got four major hotspots where we've had a lot of sectarian killings," Thurman said. "And we've got a plan that will zero in on reducing the number of murders, kidnappings, assassinations and car bombs."

Pace, who arrived Saturday from Washington, met with Thurman and other senior American commanders and addressed the troops at Camp Liberty to thank them for their service.

A few of the soldiers in his audience were with the Alaska-based 172nd Stryker Brigade, whose one-year tour of duty in Iraq was extended by four months recently in order to add another 3,500 soldiers to Thurman's force in the capital. Thurman said he has received another 2,000 extra troops from other units.

Thurman said he now has 32,444 U.S. troops in Baghdad and areas south of the capital, as well as 32,554 Iraqi forces. Of the U.S. total, about 13,500 are in Baghdad proper, he said.

http://www.saukvalley.com/news/293544058038814.bsp

-- August 14, 2006 10:40 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Pace: Bigger U.S. force may stabilize Iraq
Aug. 14, 2006, 2:54AM
By ROBERT BURNS AP Military Writer

MOSUL, Iraq — Iraq could be stabilized faster if the United States increased the size of its force, but the costs would outweigh the benefits, the chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff said Sunday.

"More U.S. and coalition forces could get the job done quicker, but that would mean dependency much longer for the Iraqi armed forces and the Iraqi government," he said, speaking in a recreation room for U.S. troops as a searing summer sun set on a day that took him from Baghdad to Fallujah to Mosul.

During a question-and-answer session with troops in Baghdad on Saturday, Pace said U.S. officials had hoped as recently as July that they could reduce the U.S. force by two brigades, or about 7,000 troops, this fall. But with the surge in sectarian killings, the force was instead increased by two brigades.

How much more time, one Marine asked, should the Iraqi government be given to achieve the political unity necessary to stabilize the country?

"I guess they have as long as it takes _ which is not forever," Pace replied.

Pace argued that setting a deadline for the United States to withdraw its support would risk pushing the Iraqis into political decisions that are unviable. On the other hand, he said, "You do not want to leave it open ended."

Another Marine wanted to know if U.S. troops would stay in Iraq in the event of an all-out civil war. Pace repeated what he told a Senate committee last week: a civil war is possible, but not expected. He did not say what the United States would do if it actually happened.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4114855.html

-- August 14, 2006 11:20 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Nelly, I appreciated your somewhat softening your stand when you said, "Take it in context. I have a problem with people promoting something as the unequivocal truth, when it is not. End of story."

I will attempt to explain where, from my perspective, I think you have missed the mark. You stated:

"There is no tangible proof that any god or gods exist, therefore to state that a God or Gods do exist, without question, is falsehood."

===end of quote===

There is no tangible proof that atoms exist either by this measurement of a TANGIBLE proof, either. It is only a theory backed up by what appear to be corroborating facts about an unseen realm. However, to state that there actually ARE atoms without question is stating a faith in that assumption because it logically works. We discuss atoms all the time based on the proofs you see from how these unseen and intangible atoms ACT. God being an unseen being, you will never get to see Him any more than you can see the atom, however, that does not make Him any less real than the atom is.

We can see how God acts and note the design behind all of life which points to Him. As I stated before, it is a statistically improbable idea that life came into being without a designer from non-life - and I referred to this idea of life arising from nonlife as being disproven by Borel's Law of Probability - here: http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#122874 . It I believe it is far easier to believe that the statistical probability equation is correct and life has a Designer from the application of Borel's Law and the many other instances of designing care within our known universe. For instance.. why does water float when frozen, why are we exactly where we are in orbit around the sun (if we were closer we'd burn up, farther away we'd freeze), why do we have an atmosphere, why does the earth rotate and orbit, what about the remarkable design of the human body, etc. Life truly does seem to be designed, at least to the unprejudiced mind?

For even more scientific reasoning on the question, try Godel's, "God, by definition, is that than which a greater cannot be thought. God exists in the understanding. If God exists in the understanding, we could imagine Him to be greater by existing in reality. Therefore, God must exist." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_ontological_proof

Godel was Einstein's best friend, and believed the ontological case for God to be convincing. "Godel was .... the only one of our colleagues who walked and talked on equal terms with Einstein." - Freeman Dyson.

I liked this ontological framework concerning God as it is very clear in making the point:

Anselm framed the argument as a reductio ad absurdum wherein he tried to show that the assumption that God does not exist leads to a logical contradiction. The following steps more closely follow Anselm's line of reasoning:

1) God is the entity than which no greater entity can be conceived.
2) The concept of God exists in human understanding.
3) God does not exist in reality (assumed in order to refute).
4) The concept of God existing in reality exists in human understanding.
5) If an entity exists in reality and in human understanding, this entity is greater than it would have been if it existed only in human understanding (a statement of existence as a perfection).
6) from 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 An entity can be conceived which is greater than God, the entity than which no greater entity can be conceived (logical self-contradiction).
7) Assumption 3 is wrong, therefore God exists in reality (assuming 1, 2, 4, and 5 are accepted as true).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_argument

The point being made here is that the assumption that God does not exist leads to a logical contradiction.. in other words, to say that "to state that a God or Gods do exist, without question, is falsehood" is incorrect because the assumption God does not exist is a logical contradiction. Though it takes a step of FAITH to believe in an unseen reality such as God, the step of faith is much smaller than believing against what is logical (as illustrated in this logical contradiction stated in point form 1-7, above) or statistically probable (Borel's Law of Probability concerning the Probability of life arising spontaneously from nonlife).

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Sara.

-- August 14, 2006 4:17 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

I'm shivering with excitement......

I just got my first shipment of Dinars, amazing what actually seeing them does to the psyche......

I can see them, I can feel them, I can touch them......

Ok, excuse me for 30 minutes while I play with my Dinar......hehe

-- August 14, 2006 4:28 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

He he he, your a dinaroholic now.....nothing will ever be the same.

Throw them in the air, make a rainfall out of them, sleep with them, and dream dream dream.

Perhaps we will get money enough that you and me can sit on a beach sipping drinks with names no one can pronounce and discuss Relativity.

I will be back, I dont give up until you are an educated Relativity graduate. ;)

-- August 14, 2006 5:13 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Roger wrote:

"Perhaps we will get money enough that you and me can sit on a beach sipping drinks with names no one can pronounce and discuss Relativity.

I will be back, I dont give up until you are an educated Relativity graduate. ;) "

------------------- Just name the place, we definitely need to throw a few back........

The whole ramadan thing is interesting. It tends to be a time of peace as well. Hopefully between that and the increased presence of US troops in Baghdad will cool off some jets for a long enough time to restore relative peace. I sure hope so.

-- August 14, 2006 5:22 PM ∞

---

RobertD wrote:

Hey everybody,
What's with the change on the Investor's Iraq website. I tried to access it, but it now appears that you have to be a member over there now, just to access the general forum. Is anyone else having this problem? It may be that I am doing something wrong.

-- August 14, 2006 6:27 PM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

Their website was down for hours this morning. I have no trouble getting on it now, but it is quite slow.
My husband is experiencing the same thing you are - having to register.
I'd wait a while and let them work out the kinks.
They were overwhelmed with the thousands of people wanting to believe in the August 14 rainbow.

-- August 14, 2006 6:29 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Steve....

Feels good to get those Dinars in hand doesn't it!!! You know you're hooked when you sleep with them under your pillow in hopes that your cosmic energy will get them to RV sooner! It really works!!!!

-- August 14, 2006 6:51 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Taxmama,
Dont know what the aug 14 Rainbow would be, checked the CBI website, the date 14 aug is there, but business as usual. Dr Q's prognosis? He is the only source that I am aware of that have mentioned the 14th, as a possible RV date. Well, perhaps the 15th....whatever, it happens when it happens. Feels like kids before Christmas. I'm pretty excited I must say.

Okie,

You found that out too, oh well I thought I was alone, I do have a trick of the trade though. Put aluminun foil underneath the money, put the pillow on top, and the cosmic energy will reflect and have double strengh.

Re, Ramadan, really good info, I'm a bit dumb when it comes to what it is about. All in all, what I can read out of it, it doesn't really have to mean anything at all when it comes to an RV, except that they might want to have it done before. Kind of a good news thing. Hey works for me.

Comon Dinar.

Steve,

I dont know if you are in a condition to communicate right now, you're probably examining each bill towars a light, and are busy sorting them according to serial number.

Dont use small drops of Crazy Glue when you are trying to build houses with them, use tejp.

Re:Relativity Theory, you suck....no just joking, but seriously, you do need to get a bit more education in the subject to get the concepts.

I have made a couple of statements, and you dont get the idea about them, so here is a couple of books for the beginners to study in the field of Relativity.

1. The Evolution of Physics
, Albert Einstein and Leopold Infeld. Will tell you more basic things.

2. Relativity Simply Explained, by Martin Gardner, an excellent little book.

3. Understanding Einsteins Theories of Relativity. By Stan Giblisco, really good.

4. Black Holes and Timewarps, by Kip S.Thorne, one of my favourite books, really good one, he gets it really nailed here. One flaw only, where he explains the opposite to the moon tidal wave as caused by tidal gravity, not mentioning the simplest of them all, the rotation of two objects around a common center of gravity.

5. Sounds dumb, but its a good book, from the Idiot series. "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Theories Of The Universe", written by Gary F. Moring.

6. Journey Through Time, by Steven Hawkins. Steve H, agenious in his own, but the book itself will go more towards black holes and the problems around it, It does however cover pretty much Relativity Theory.

Ok, Steve, pick any of those and get these statemets confirmed.

1. A falling object experience no gravity.

2. An object standing on earth experiences 1G of acceleration.

3. An object under acceleration have a slower clock than a static (not under acceleration) object.

4. Acceleration and Gravity is reduced to one phenomenon, and is the same.

5. Two object can be in a fixed position to each other, one experiencing acceleration and one is not.

I think I leave it with that, Steve, because it will be a very lenghty process to try to convince you about it's correctness, it's better that you on your own time pick up one or more of those books, and get in the game that way.

No I was never at Woodstock, but I saw the movie.

If you remember the sixties, you were not there. It was other times, with flowers in the hair.

And the Iraq Dinar was at 3.50 to the Dollar at the time.

-- August 14, 2006 7:49 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Roger wrote:

"Ok, Steve, pick any of those and get these statemets confirmed.

1. A falling object experience no gravity.

2. An object standing on earth experiences 1G of acceleration.

3. An object under acceleration have a slower clock than a static (not under acceleration) object.

4. Acceleration and Gravity is reduced to one phenomenon, and is the same.

5. Two object can be in a fixed position to each other, one experiencing acceleration and one is not.

I think I leave it with that, Steve, because it will be a very lenghty process to try to convince you about it's correctness, it's better that you on your own time pick up one or more of those books, and get in the game that way."

------------------------- Basic gravitational redshift problem Roger. As I wrote above, the problem is not with my understanding of these concepts (I know them well), it was understanding your question, which I thought to be worded a bit, strangely. Once I figured out what you were asking, I acknowledged the fact that I had misunderstood ya.

I'm no expert in relativity. The last class I took related to that was electrodynamics 3 years ago. When I completed my physics degree, I avoided relativity and cosmology on the whole because they just don't interest me. My forte is Biophysics. Being an RN makes this a good fit for my knowledge base already.

Anyways, yes Okie I plan to fast until an RV is announced. Hopefully I won't lose too much weight.......

Has anyone heard about the level of violence in Iraq since Stryker Brigade crashed the party? It hard to get much info anymore with the whole Israel thing going on.

-- August 14, 2006 8:49 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Oh... BTW, GID Associates sells for 760 per mil. Apparently they only deal in 25 k notes though (boooooo....).

-- August 14, 2006 8:58 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,
I talk and write funny sometimes, I wrote you an e-mail and you will understand .
Roger

-- August 14, 2006 9:41 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Dont know why you would boo 25K notes, they are the same Dinars as smaller notes, except facevalue. and take a heck of a less space.

I'm not dealing in anything BUT 25K notes.

The safety box rent will be so much cheaper.

There would be no difference in value with a very big bunch of smaller bills than a smaller bunch with higher valued bills.

I have seen some dealers that is trying to sell smaller denominations more expensive, giving reason that they are harder to get hold of, or whatever, dont go for it. a 1000 Dinar bill is worth just that, and a 25.000 is worth just that.

It's like if your employer is paying you in one dollar bills each second week, trying to convince you the one dollar bills have more value. Giving all the employee a shoebox full of bills.

I read some that was very supprised when they ordered a couple of millions Dinars in very small denominations, the FedEx man came in with box after box, until there was a pile of boxes in the hallway.

-- August 14, 2006 9:55 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Steve:
I'm with Roger on the 25K notes...no reason to buy less...

-- August 14, 2006 10:43 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

All,

For those of you that have never experienced the affects of Ramadan, I will give a little insight. Many Muslims do not fast during daylight hours. Much like Catholics and Protestants. Use to be that Catholics could only eat fish on Fridays, but Protestants did not. Same religion different facet/creed. Much depends on how religious the person/family is.

Being over here during Ramadan is not fun and I dread it every year. Despite having to deal with the locals, I have my own workers that do fast. Every year I have to find out which of those will be fasting and those that won’t. For those that do, I have to keep a very close eye on them to insure that they don’t dehydrate or just die. Not kidding. I have seen at other camps the death of at least 2 individuals during Ramadan. As much of our/my work is outside in the blazing sun (Sept/Oct will still have temperatures in the 120’s +) I must pace my Muslim personnel and take care of their needs. This causes friction between those that do fast and those that don’t, as I must provide additional relief and rest during working hours for those that do. We also have to be very careful as Expat’s that we do not eat, drink, or smoke in front of those that do fast. One of my workers has been with me for the last 2 years and does fast. Sammy (Sameer) is very devout, and sopping wet, maybe weighs 140 Lbs. By the end of Ramadan he probably weighs just over a 100 Lbs and has turned various shades of yellow. This normally sweet guy, who is one of my hardest workers, also turns into an asshole. The locals turn even nastier as they are physically abusing themselves. All in all, it is not one of my favorite times of year.

So, “NO” way is this an extended Christmas. It is also one of the most dangerous times for insurgency. Muslims who kill Infidels during Ramadan get extra virgins or some such according to the Koran. Every year this gets a little worse, and this year I expect it to be really bad. We will see a decrease in the number of daylight attacks, but after dark the nutcases will be out in force. Ramadan use to be a fairly civil time, but now with the increased power of the Mullah’s and Imam’s inflaming the populace, it has turned into another reason to just kill more Infidels.

-- August 14, 2006 11:16 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,
Thanks, ok so from what I have gathered, the overall situation in Iraq have been overshadowed by a couple of big events, and the daily feed of carbombings the MSM have been given us, have been replaced almost completely with the Irael Hezbolla, and the Brittsh uncovered murderplot.

From reports lately, there sweem to be a roundeup of a quite substatial numbers of deathsquad people, I dont even know who is fighting who no more, over there, but this daily tit for tat, have absolutely been the most deadly, and if there is insurgents still on the job, it's so garbled up with criminals, insurgents sectariens, so if a bomb goes off, no one have a clue why or by whom.

Reports of roundups, and quite a bit of arrests lately had put my hopes into that when the MSM will get back to their job of detailing Iraq body parts , exactly where they landed and a fair descriptiopn of how the blood splatter looks like, there would be a decrease in these events.

Ok Lance I understand, it's a bit more whip yourself, get out of shape, dehydrate and turn yellow, and go nuts type of thing, rather than Christmas spirit.

Well, I dont know what to say, , but they have apparently done this for a thousand year, so I guess they're just going to do it again this year.

They need Howard Stern over there.

Any Dinar news from over there Lance? Here it seems we're all waiting for Santa.

-- August 14, 2006 11:43 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

A few post ago I boasted to Roger that I bought 5,000,000 Dinar for $2500 USD. Works out to $500 a million pretty good deal. I thought so too until I found out today that I was scammed.

I consider myself a pretty intelligent person, but if it could happen to me it could happen to anyone. I allowed emotion to over rule logic.

Long story short. I recieved what looked to be a valid second chance offer from Ebay for the 5,000,000 dinar notes. I failed to examine the offer closely. I used Western Union to pay for my purchase. The theif took my money and of course no Dinar.

Let this be a warning, it is important to know who you are dealing with when purchasing Dinar. I lost my $2500.00 and not very happy.

If anyone has ran accross Brian Winkelman (alias) from Orlando, FL do not deal with him. My stupidity cost me big. I will post his email address so you can beware of this guy.

I hope you guys had a better day than I did. Lessoned learned. It will not happen a second time.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 15, 2006 12:40 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Rob N,

I'm really really sorry to hear what you just have gone through.

Call the autorities in Orlando, this is nothing but a cheap thief.

Your own guilt in this, I'm sorry but you have to deal with that yourself, but for the thief.

Go for it, be on the attack mode, be loud about it, give the autorities all the info, and be sure you dont get hold of someone that just will file a report.

Even the smartest criminal will leave a trail.

Right now you have been hit, and it hurts, take a breath, and swing the situation over from being a victim to being a hunter.

Switch mode from effect to cause. Dont let the scum take a piss on you, and believe he will get away with it.

Things are traceable, start with E-bay, fint the computer where everything emanated from.

This might just be a dumb 17 year old on his dads computer.

Good luck and let us know, and again I'm so sorry to hear your story, but I appreciate you shared with us.

-- August 15, 2006 1:14 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

The Middle East have been growing date palms for centuries.The average tree is about 18-20 feet tall and yealds about 38 pounds of dates a year.

Israeli date trees are now yealding 400 pounds/year and are short enough to be harvested from the ground or a short ladder.

Israel the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the worlds population, can lay claim to the folowing:

The cellphone, while not invented , it was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli branch of Motorola, which has it's largest development center in Israel.

Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by microsoft-Israel.

The Pentium micro processor in your computer was most likely made in Israel.

Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in Israel.

The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.

Israel has the fourth largest airforce in the world (ater US, Russia and China), in addition to a large variety of other aircraft, Israel's airforce has an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16's. This is the largest fleet of F-16 outside of the US.

Israels $100Billion economy is larger than all of it's immediate neighbours combined.

They have the highest percentage of home computers per capita in the world.

According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry's most impenetratable flight security. US officials (finally) now look to Israel for advice on how to handle airborne security threats.

It have the highest ratio of universty degrees to the population in the world.

Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin, 109 per 10.000 people, as well as one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed.

In propotion to its population, Israel has the largest number of start up companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the largest number of start up companies in the world except US.(3500 companies, mostly hi-tech)

Apart from Silicon Valley, Israel has the highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world.

Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital right behind the US.

Outside of US and Canada, Israel has the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies.

It has the highest living standard in the Middle East.

Income per capita year 2000 exceeded that one of the UK.

Per capita it has the largest number of start up companies in Biotech.

Twenty-four percent of Israels work force hold university degrees, ranking third in the world after the USA and Holland. Twelve percent hold advanced degrees.

Israel is the only Liberal Democracy in the Middle East.

1984 to 1991 Israel airlifted a total of 22000 Ethiopian Jews at risk in Ethiopia, to safety in Israel.

Golda Meir was the second elected female Prime Minister in modern times.

When the US Embassy in Nairobi Kenya was bombed Israeli rescue team flew immediately and was on the scene under a day, and saved three victims from the rubble.

Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship, and the highest rate among women and among people 55 and over, in the world.

Relative to its population Israel is the largest immigrant absorbing nation on earth.

Israel has the second highest per capita of new books.

Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a net gain in it's number of trees, most remarkable, as this was achieved in an area considered desert.

Israel has more museums per capita than any other country in the world.

They developed the first fully computerized , no-radiati diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment. (Yearly deaths in the US because of treatment mistakes....7000)

They developed the first ingestible videocamera so small it fits inside a pill, used to view intestine from the inside, cancer and digestive disorders.

Leader in the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the work force, by wide margin.

Much more but you got the idea.

All the above and more, while engaged in fregular wars with an implacable enemy, and an economy continously under strain by having to spend more per capita on its own protection than any other country on earth.

AND THE FRENCH AMBASSADOR IN ENGLAND SAYS: -"ISRAEL IS NOTHING BUT A SHITTY LITTLE COUNTRY"

-- August 15, 2006 2:28 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Roger,

Nothing new over here on the Dinar. Not even a whisper on the streets, but then I don’t ask unless the subject is brought up. If I show interest then they will tell me what they think I want to hear. So I am pretty much stuck Googling, and checking the MSM’s like everyone else. I just have a bunch of pre-programmed searches that help me find stuff. But really quiet (hopefully before the storm). I will mention that fuel prices are through the roof and the locals are screaming. Everything is costing more for the locals and they were just scrapping by before. As cynical as this sounds, it may be a good thing for us investors as we know that the CBI is just about out of options to bring inflation under control, and about the only tool left is an RV.

Back to the fuel crises here in Iraq. Most people don’t know, but Iraq only has 1 or 2 refineries in country, so they must import almost all of their gasoline and diesel. Rich in crude oil but unable to support their own needs. Agreements between the Iraqi Government, Turkish, Kuwaiti, and Jordanian Governments bring in vast tanker convoys of refined products. This costs the Iraqi Government huge amounts as they are subsidizing the difference between what it actually costs and what they sell it for. This has gotten better as far as price subsidies because the IMF demanded that they cut how much they were paying (The Iraq Government), and place the burden on the people. Granted they are still only paying only about a dollar per gallon now, but until last year they were only paying about $0.35 per gallon. This dollar a gallon is not far from what the price per gallon of gas is over here in most of the Arab countries. You have to remember that this is the price at the Government controlled stations. So how are they getting black market fuels? Obviously there is some being smuggled across the borders, but my opinion is that these very same “authorized convoys” coming from these other countries are actually selling the fuel out of the back of the tankers. The Iraqi Government has already paid for it, but now the tanker drivers or the companies they work for are making a profit by selling the same fuel on the black market, for even more, to the same people who should have been able to get it at a Government controlled facility at the standardized price. Another part of the problem is that these companies shipping the fuel have not been able to keep up with the demand. Iraq is now requiring more energy to keep its rapidly expanding economy going. These companies just can not provide the numbers of tankers to meet this demand, nor can they react fast enough to accommodate the needs. Part of this is just poor planning between the various governments, and part is the vast cost’s that these companies must invest to maintain and manage these fleets of tankers. As each tanker costs over $100,000.00, and can only hold 8-10 thousand gallons of fuel, this becomes a huge investment based on a country that doesn’t have its act together yet. FYI, a normal “Daily” convoy from Kuwait to Iraq is already in the 200+ tanker range, and that is only one country supplying this commodity, and they still have a shortage of fuel here. If I wanted to invest long term (beyond Dinars) I would be investing in the companies that build Refineries. There will be huge profits in this.

Rob N,

Hunt the bastard down and hurt him badly. Take pictures, so we can all enjoy your retribution.

All,

There are a few decent articles on MSNBC that pertain to what is going on over here. An interview with Ambassador Khalizad, one about the Mahdi Army, and another interview from the Sunni VP of Iraq. Interesting reading.

-- August 15, 2006 4:09 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

RobN:
Sorry! to hear about your problem with the dinar. I should have posted this a long time ago..
It might have saved you money...
Some of the techniques used on E-Bay to Steal are these:
1. Request to send Cash or Cashiers Check...(use money orders not cashiers checks)Very few people know that a cashier's check can be canceled after they pay for the merchandise.
2. Requested payment through Western Union.
3. You get a email from the seller or buyer wanting your direct email instead of communicating through the ebay message center.
4. They want to do business outside of Ebay directly and not put the funds through Ebay
5. Will not give you a physical address, or phone number to talk
6. Want you to send funds or merchandise to Post Office number.
7. They want to use first name and/or company name to do business with
8. They refuse to use Ebay escrow approved accounts and state they have been doing business with another escrow account and will only use them. (What they don't tell you is...they own the escrow account, so when you send the funds to the bogus escrow account ...well! you know the rest...(on high value items such as dinar, use escrow or COD...Pay COD with cashiers check...you are not going to rip someone off...but by paying with cashiers check this gives you time to inspect the dinar...if ripoff paper...cancel the cashiers check and notify police you have done so..

RobN: Give me a call on my Cell phone 256-366-5483...let me get some information from you...I may be able to give you some pointers......
Ebay will not give you any information about the person...however, I assure you are not alone in the rip off...so notfiying Ebay about this will stop this Ebay Seller under that name....

Notify the Police of the theft...and hope they have a cyber unit...

Chances are the name is bogus...

AGAIN GUYS....
WHEN DOING BUSINESS ON EBAY...NEVER GO OUTSIDE OF EBAY TO COMPLETE A TRANSACTION ..
ON HIGH VALUE ITEMS ALWAYS USE THEIR ESCROW SYSTEM...IT STOPS THE RIPOFFS...
NOTIFY EBAY IMMEDIATELY IF THE BUYER OR SELLER WANTS TO DO TRANSACTION OUTSIDE OF EBAY..
I deal on ebay all of the time, and above are just some of the techniques that have seen used in an attempt to rip me off...

9.

-- August 15, 2006 6:06 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Thanks for the pointers, Carl. Will keep in mind in case I ever HAVE TO buy from ebay again. But I generally avoid it like the plague. I once used ebay and got ripped off, too. I sent money to this fabulously rated person (large amount of supposedly happy people recommended this person - don't think the ratings tell you anything at all) using Western Union. Ebay was no help. Apart from mentioning the ripoff on "dealer feedback" and corresponding with others who were similarly ripped off and never received their merchandise (which only helped a bit to make us all feel better) nothing was done for us. I swallowed the money I was out (it was under one thousand dollars) and have never felt it worth dealing through ebay sellers again. I think if you try hard enough you can always buy what you need from someone more reputable. I see them as a place that is a bit shady, but with your no nonsense approach, it might work after all. Too bad they don't give you those pointers when you join.. "once bitten, twice shy" as they say.

Sara.

-- August 15, 2006 6:42 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Sara:
There are always individuals that try to take advantage...
My experience with Ebay overall has been very positive...I have made a lot of friends through the service,as I meet individuals with like hobbies or collecting habits..
Since cooking is my hobby and I collect Antique Cookbooks and/or autographed ones..... I now have over 400 of these...it is a good source to find these..
I have sold everything from Barber chairs to Rolex watches valued at $6500.00...without any problems as long as you follow the guidelines...Ebay is a trading tool...and a commerce business that are designed to get a commission to put buyer and seller together...
they do the best they can with strict guidelines however, fail to follow those and you are walking into quick sand for the novice...

-- August 15, 2006 7:55 AM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Just out of curiosity...about how much dinar are y'all gathering up? I thought I had a lot until I started talking to other investors...I have a mere 1.7Mil.

I also am thinking of opening myself up here for some discussion. Here's my challenge...tell me that the Earth is billions of years old, and I will tell you that it is scientifically proven that it is only about 6,000 years old. This is information that was released to the scientific community last November, and right now they are scratching their heads, not knowing what to do with the information. Why? Because they cant disprove it! And it totally wipes out the whole evolution theory of billions of years. So then, go ahead, present me with some facts that "prove" evolution and I will try my best to disprove that theory.

~Tyler

-- August 15, 2006 9:44 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Tyler:

I do not mind sharing the amount of Dinar I hold. I currently hold 4,000,000 Dinar. I plan to buy more.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 15, 2006 10:20 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Tyler,
Half life of all common radioactive matieral naturally occuring in earth is right wher it should be at a bout 4.5-5 billion yers old.

-- August 15, 2006 10:23 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Tyler,

I don't mind either, I hold 35 mill Dinars, and with a liiiitle bit of luck I just miiight get in another 5 mil before the store is closed, but thats stretching it.

I wonder how long it took to carve out Grand Canyon.

In the early part of the history when the solarsystem was formed, a lot of space debris was in rotation around the mighty sun, the earth had big volume, and thus could generate some of its own heat, keeping the continents adrift, , creating atmosphere rain and erosion.

The moon is small, and have set like a batch of epoxy, didnt get an athmosphere. you can just look up an be awestruck seing all the old impact craters from a time long gone.

If those impacts would have happened 6000 years ago, that mean that the earth would have been also completely carpet bombed at that time. Big craters everywhere, one covering the other.

The best preserved crater on earth is the Arizona crater outside of Flagstaff, about 50.000 years old.

Tyler, I could go on for quite some time, but I just think this discussion is meanigless.

I suppose you want to prove that you believe in God.

I think thats fine, and all that, I have no problem with that at all as you might have seen from any and all earlier postings, but just because you want to have that fact stated to say that the eart is flat, up is down and black is white, is pretty far fetched.

I do believe that you as a Christian would live a happier life finding God within yourself rather than trying to prove him with absurdities.

-- August 15, 2006 11:03 AM ∞

---

RobertD wrote:

Rob N,
Sorry to hear about the crook ripping you off. You are a smart person. You simply trusted another person, and expected them to follow through on their side of the deal. I had something similar happen to me one time, on a smaller scale, though it wasn't on ebay.

Surely, this dude who ripped you off had to show his ID at some point. Like Carl and Lance, I would track this dude down, and send him to jail. Carl can correct me, but I do believe that any type of theft over $500 dollars is considered a felony.

Thanks for the alert on this. I will look out for it in the future.

-- August 15, 2006 11:19 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Roger said:

"Dont know why you would boo 25K notes, they are the same Dinars as smaller notes, except facevalue. and take a heck of a less space.

I'm not dealing in anything BUT 25K notes.

The safety box rent will be so much cheaper.

There would be no difference in value with a very big bunch of smaller bills than a smaller bunch with higher valued bills.

I have seen some dealers that is trying to sell smaller denominations more expensive, giving reason that they are harder to get hold of, or whatever, dont go for it. a 1000 Dinar bill is worth just that, and a 25.000 is worth just that."

--------------- You must have been reading my mind Roger, I was just going to ask everyone opinion on this. I think where your example fails Roger is that our currentcy is not anticipated to increase substantially in value in the next few weeks or months. The reason I think this way is that once the currency values to a sufficient amount, the first bills to go will be the big ones. I don't want to get stuck having to get rid of big bills in the early days while there are few if any places to trade in. As time goes on and there are more trading places for the Dinar, then I will be in better position when the 1k note goes (hopefully it values to a point where thats feasible). But think about it, it doesnt have to value much to make a 25k bill extraordinarily large. My primary concern here is being able to exchange my bills in relative safety if they suddenly decide to do away with the big bills in the months after RV. Think about it folks, the US doesn't deal in large denominatons right now. We used to, but not anymore. Why is that? Mebbe my reasoning is off base, but its what I will stick to.

As for deposit space, thats of minimal concern. If youre buying 10 mil worth of Dinar in the first place I am sincerely hoping that storage space for those Dinar isn't breaking your back. If so, you might need to re-examine your budget. I have about 10 mil Dinar total, 80% or so in 1k notes. It fits in a 15 gallon trash can with room to spare( I don't store it there, just an example). Any other thoughts on this? I like to get Lances opinion on this if I could............

Tyler:

----------------- Give me an explanation for the presence of C14 (half-life about 5700 years or so) and we will talk further.......

Cheriossssss...........

-- August 15, 2006 11:21 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

FACTS TO PONDER

physicians
(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is
700,000.

(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians
per year are
120,000.

(C) Accidental deaths per physician
is
0.171.

(Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of
Health Human Services).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

guns

Now think about this:
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S.
is
80,000,000.

(Yes, that's 80 million..)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

(B) The number of accidental gun deaths
per year, all age groups,
is
1,500.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

(C) The number of accidental deaths
per gun owner
is
.000188.
(Statistics courtesy of FBI)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So, statistically, doctors are approximately
9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN,
BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Please alert your friends
to this
alarming threat.
We must ban doctors
before this gets completely out of hand.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Out of concern for the public at large,
I have withheld the statistics on
lawyers
for fear the shock would cause
people to panic and seek medical attention!

-- August 15, 2006 11:58 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

As promised I wanted to pass along the email address of the person who ripped me off. If you receive an email from stecherzx@yahoo.com stay clear.

I am sure their our others out there involved in Dinar scams. I have reported the fraud to Western Union and EBAY. Western Union basically told me I am out of luck and I have not heard back from EBAY.

I also received a second chance offer via email from a person claiming to be Laura McCartney like Brian Winkelman her email was not in my inbox at my ebay. Please stay clear of email from lauramccc@gmail.com

Carl, I will call you later today. I appreciate your willingness to help.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 15, 2006 1:10 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Ok, wow you guys forwarded some great questions...Roger and Steve. I can only answer one at a time as time permits, but each question I am writing down. Lets start with Roger your first point on Half-life,

There is a very wide dynamic range of half lives. The longest are about 10^9 (one billion) years. Some examples are the half life of U235 which is 0.7 x 10^9 years, the half life of U238 which is 4.5 x 10^9 years and the half life of Th232 which is 14.9 x 10^9 years. At the other extreme examples of radioisotopes with very short half lives are Po211 which has a half life of 1.64 x 10-4 seconds and At2l6 which has a half life of 3 x 10-4 seconds. The important radionuclides in radiometric dating are U238, K40, Ru87, and C14. They are said to have half lives of 4.5 billion years, 1.2 billion years, 50 billion years, and 5.73 thousand years respectively. Here’s the problem…each of these figures for half-lives are dependent on a constant nuclear decay index. If a small amount of exponential variation occurs in the nuclear decay index, then the half lives of the radiometric nuclides are drastically reduced-orders of magnitude. In the case of U238 the half life is reduced by a factor of 10^5. The reason that there is such a great change in half life due to a minuscule change in decay index is due to the extrapolation technique of radiometric dating. When one uses the radiometric dating technique, one extrapolates from a time base of days at most to billions of years. The extrapolation factor in time is approximately 10^11. Any competent experimentalist knows that extrapolation by such a large factor is very poor technique. Hence one should expect the radiometric dating technique to run into formidable problems. There are several examples that show that the nuclear decay index varies in time…radiohalos is one example. Radiohalos are minute concentric rings of discoloration in minerals such as mica formed by alpha ray bombardment from radioactive inclusions. Radiohalos give evidence that decay rates vary with time. Conclusion: the basic theory of measuring half-life is very shaky at best. It is flawed based on the belief that the rate of decay is constant throuough time. However newer and more accurate research shows that there are several factors that change the rate of decay over time, such as external environment, radiohalos, radioactive decay triggers, and changes in the speed of light over time (theory). Ok, so then what is the point? There is a big possibility that at one point, or several points in Earths history, the nuclear decay index was accelerated. One such theory could have been the Great Flood, but we can discuss that later.

Questions...comments?

~Tyler

-- August 15, 2006 1:14 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

So how long did the Grand Canyon take to form?

First of all I’d like to point out that the radioisotope methods used to date the earths rocks to “millions of years old”, have repeatedly failed to provide reliable and meaningful absolute ages for Grand Canyon rock layers. Irreconcilable disagreement within and between the methods is the norm, even at the outcrop scale. This is a devastating "blow" to the long ages that are foundational to uniformitarian geology and evolutionary biology. Yet the discordance patterns are consistent with past accelerated radioisotope decay, which would also render these "clocks" useless. So how long did it take to carve that puppy out? Visitors to Grand Canyon as well as eighth grade earth science students have been traditionally taught that the Colorado River, migrating back and forth for 65 million years, coupled with side canyon erosion, has carved out this immense gorge. In recent years, scientists have disproved that idea, leaning now on a great volume of water rushing through the area at a high velocity not very long ago (thousands of years? Maybe about 5-6,000?) which carved the canyon. (Unfortunately, school students are still being taught the older, long-age model.) One example of this possibility among several is the Burlingame Canyon near Walla Walla, Washington. It measures 1500 feet long, up to 120 feet deep, and 120 feet wide, winding through a hillside. A small-scale analogy to Grand Canyon it was observed to form in less than six days.

To answer your question…I don’t know, and neither does the geological community, except that the likely scenario was a great ammt of water in a short period of time. (the great flood?)

~Tyler

-- August 15, 2006 1:33 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Steve - I want to answer your question right quick then I have to try to get some work done (will continue to work with rogers open questions)

C14, or carbon 14 is a radioactive carbon atom (isotope) that is formed when N14, or nitrogen 14 is bombarded by cosmic rays in our upper atmosphere. Its half-life is about 5,730 years. It is a radioactive gas that drifts down to earth and is absorbed from the air into plants. Animals eat the plants, we eat the animals, etc. Once carbon-14 is absorbed into living things it remains there, until we die and stop absorbing it.

There is a lot more on C14, but I believe that answers your question as to what it is and where it comes from. Just a side note on carbon, it is one of the basic building blocks of life in all organic materials in the universe. Three different isotopes of Carbon exist in nature. The important isotopes of Carbon are Carbon-12, Carbon-13, and Carbon-14. Carbon-14, also known as radiocarbon.

Chat with ya later,

~Tyler

-- August 15, 2006 1:54 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Roger et al,

I am not going to try to prove to you that God exists in this discussion. All I'm doing is promoting a discussion (with the absense of dinar news) on the real age of the Earth. I will try to focus on things that we can actually touch and test, not try to explain giant black holes and comets that are supposed to be as old as the universe itself, yadda yadda. The narrower the field of discussion, the easier it is to focus on point. This isn't religion folks, this is scientific fact. We can talk about what we believe God's role is in all this later...

~Tyler

-- August 15, 2006 2:03 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

P.S. I dont need to prove that I believe in God...I do. I am a Jesus Friek, tried and true. Nuff said =)

-- August 15, 2006 2:06 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Tyler put it in more technical terms, I liked the laymen's version:

When various dating methods (uranium-thorium-lead dating, rubidium-strontium dating, potassium-argon dating, radiocarbon dating, etc.) are applied to the same object or strata, they always- always produce wildly different dates, generally millions of years apart.

The accuracy of such methods are questionable on scientific grounds. Think through what is being said here. What is being questioned here is the SCIENCE behind the dating methods - the underlying ASSUMPTIONS which cause a person to say.. "This rock is two hundred million years old". We are doing so by asking what the underlying assumptions are that are being worked with to reach that statement which is asserted to be fact, "This rock IS two hundred million years old". How do we KNOW that to be true? For the dating to be accurate scientifically, ALL these factors below are ASSUMED. Question for yourself if any of them could reasonably vary and therefore cause the sample to give dates which would differ from those than is currently generally accepted:

RADIOISOTOPE CHARTS

In theory, the charts look impressive. But it is all theory. The real world would have greatly altered these theoretical decay time spans. Here are 12 factors which HAD to be present for the dating to be accurate and each of them will be discussed in greater detail..

(1) No contamination could have been present, although out in nature it is very much present most of the time.

(2) No daughter products could initially be present, although there is no valid reason why they could not initially have been present in great abundance.

(3) The decay rate could never change, although there are a number of significant outside factors which could easily have effected those changes.

(4) The Van Allen radiation belt must never have changed, although our first data on it only goes back to 1959.

(5) The decay clock within each radioactive substance had to start at the beginning, but Creation would have begun with flowers, trees and other items in full maturity, so why not radioactive cycles as well?

(6) No end products could originally be mixed in with the parent substances, but this is merely another assumption.

(7) No leaching of radioactive substances could have taken place, but those substances were out in nature where rainfall and underground water is constantly flowing, not in a sterile laboratory.

(8) No neutron capture could have occurred, but research reveals that it can easily occur in nature.

(9) According to the theory, the earth was originally molten. If that were true, then radical resetting of radioactive clocks would have occurred.

(10) The daughter products must be measured as a ratio of the parent substance in order to obtain a date, but, aside from leaching and other factors, some of the daughter products go off in the form of gases.

(11) Laboratory analysis of each specimen must be done with extreme accuracy, yet verification has revealed that this is often not done.

(12) All specimen test results should agree with one another, but this occurs with only the most extreme rarity. The dates obtained greatly conflict with one another

5-RUBIDIUM-STRONTIUM DATING—Rubidium 87 gradually decays into strontium 87. All aside from leaching and other contamination, the experts have so far been unable to agree on length of rubidium half life. *Abrams compiled a list of rubidium half lives suggested by various experts. The rubidium half life estimates varied between 48 and 120 billion years! That is a variation spread of 72 billion years: a number so inconceivably large as to render Rb-Sr dating worthless.

In addition, only a very small amount of strontium results from the decay, and much of it may be non-radiogenic, that is, not caused by the decay process. One geologist, *J.C. Engels, after careful researching into this problem, estimated that "radiogenic Sr-87 [decayed from Rb-87] would be only about 5 percent of all Sr-87 present" in the Rb-87 to Sr-87 specimens analyzed! The problem is that strontium 87 is easily leached from one mineral to another, thus producing highly contaminated dating test results.

"Why do the radioactive ages of lava beds laid down within a few weeks of each other differ by millions of years?"—Glenn R. Morton, "Electromagnetics and the Appearance of Age, " in Creation Research Society Quarterly, March 1982, p. 229.

"Most of the ages obtained by the lead-thorium method disagree with the ages of the same minerals computed by other lead methods. The reasons for this disagreement are largely unknown."—*Henry Faul, Nuclear Geology

http://evolution-facts.org/Ev-V1/1evlch07a.htm

I highly recommend that you spend the time to read this page to understand some of the differing views based on science which challenge the evolutionary theory of "indisputable" rock age dating.

Although evolutionists are loath to admit it, the dating methods used to support their evolutionary construct spanning millions of years are themselves open to question. To illustrate the gravity of the problem, "in 1984 Science reported that the shells of living snails in artesian springs in Nevada were carbon-dated as 27,000 years old" (James Perloff, Tornado in a Junkyard, 1999, p. 141).

Other dating methods have their problems too. Using the potassium-argon method, Hawaiian lava from an eruption two centuries ago was dated from 160 million to three billion years old. In New Zealand, lava dated 465,000 years old by one method contained wood dated at less than 1,000 years by another method (Milton, pp. 47-48). James Perloff notes that the lava dome of Mount St. Helens, which erupted in 1980, "has been radiometrically dated at 2.8 million years" (Perloff, p. 146).

http://www.ucg.org/booklets/EV/outofplace.htm

These few examples should at least cause a nonbiased person who is open to truth and has an open mind to wonder about the iron clad belief in the currently accepted dating methods. Remember that these methods are some of the most important pillars in the evolutionary theory so that evolutionists will indeed have their axe to grind in defending long ages of the earth which are necessary for their theory to have occurred. Try to keep as unbiased an opinion as is possible and look carefully at the data itself.. what does this say to your scrutiny? Can we sweep these things under the rug as being inconsequential by saying, for instance, that such dating methods may not work in the short term, but the long dates are viable? Since we cannot test the long dates by any verifiable dataset (there are no records to compare them to which prove or disprove it because it is extrapolation back into unrecorded history), and the short datasets are indeed questionable and give incorrect dates.. (LIVING SNAILS being dated as 27,000 years old - how do we know we have not done the same kind of mistake on the other datasets?)

I ask you to consider what you think is reasonable.. is there a case for what they call in jurisprudence "a reasonable doubt"?? That is, consider from this evidence if the evolutionary case for long ages of the rocks is so proven to the extent that there is no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a reasonable person (usually this means the mind of the judge or jury)? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof I think Tyler and I have concluded that we see reasonable doubt in the theories of radiometric dating which assert with absolutism that these dates are inalterably the absolute and final, unchanging Truth. (Thus saith the.. radiometric dating techniques? ;) )

Sara.

-- August 15, 2006 3:03 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Roger - On craters...not much to discuss there. How did scientists come up with the age of the Flagstaff crater? There are many many documented craters in the crust of the Earth, and I have no doubt that we were bombarded with quite a few...but the question is when. You also have to remember that our atmosphere burns up many meteors each year, whereas the moon does not. Back in Earths early history there was a much thicker atmosphere, which would have burned up larger and more dangerous space-rocks. I'm not sure what your question is there...unless you're wondering how old the craters and associated meteors are. One thing to remember is that many craters were formed by giant volcanic eruptions. Speaking of...did you know that the only rocks that can be dated by radiometric methods are volcanic, or once-molten rock?

Aside from all that, radiometric dating has, as I stated before time and time again failed to prove accurate. The example I used earlier was the Grand Canyon. I have done a study on that, which is much more specific than what I've written here...if anyone is interested.

~Tyler

-- August 15, 2006 3:32 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Sara - Good job on your follow-up explanation! May I also suggest on point No. 7 about leaching, about the possibility of an accelerated decay rate due to a catastrophic flood? =)

Next?

~Tyler

-- August 15, 2006 3:41 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Tyler wrote:

"However newer and more accurate research shows that there are several factors that change the rate of decay over time, such as external environment, radiohalos, radioactive decay triggers, and changes in the speed of light over time (theory). Ok, so then what is the point? There is a big possibility that at one point, or several points in Earths history, the nuclear decay index was accelerated."

-------------------------------- True, true Tyler. You have your facts straight. Enivronmental factors do change decay rates. Do they change them by 3 orders of magnitude is the real question (thats 1 x 10^3). I dunno. Being a medical physicist and working with radioisotopes daily, I can say for my part that I have never come across a phenomenon which induces such a change. Having done a lot of research on radioactive decay has led me down the same road.

HOWEVER........ I am always open to the possibility that all of this could have happened. Conditions on this planet could not have been as they are today to induce such effects IMO. Yes molten conditions can reset radioisotope clocks but the geological strata we see runs counter to a quickly cooled planet. A supernova mebbe? Would have destroyed any biological forms on this planeet, hands down. So the explanation I am looking for from you Tyler is: 1 )The exact change these conditions could have had on decay rates, and the time over which these changed held true (ie the changes in physical laws caused by unknowns which Sara maintains are absolute.....) and 2) The "corrected" time that these isotopes took to decay to thier present state

Sara wrote:

"When various dating methods (uranium-thorium-lead dating, rubidium-strontium dating, potassium-argon dating, radiocarbon dating, etc.) are applied to the same object or strata, they always- always produce wildly different dates, generally millions of years apart."

------------------------- When speaking about specimens whose possible age is hundreds of millions of years old, that ain't too bad. Sure some refining can definitely be done. I would like to see more accurate tests but when something is 100 million years old, coming within 5-6 million years or even 10-20 million I can accept for now. Point is, they all still give millions as the timeframe, not thousands. That would be 3 orders of magnitude in the wrong direction, very large indeed. What did I tell you about dealing in absolutes Sara? The only abolutes in this universe are taxes and death.

Sara wrote:

"5-RUBIDIUM-STRONTIUM DATING—Rubidium 87 gradually decays into strontium 87. All aside from leaching and other contamination, the experts have so far been unable to agree on length of rubidium half life. *Abrams compiled a list of rubidium half lives suggested by various experts. The rubidium half life estimates varied between 48 and 120 billion years! That is a variation spread of 72 billion years: a number so inconceivably large as to render Rb-Sr dating worthless."

------------------------------ Again Sara, in an absolute sense (yeah, there you go again). What youre missing is that it still has an age of 48-120 billion years. A far cry from the "thousands of years theory". As a dating technique, no arguement here, its no good. Since its older than the planet is by your assertion, mebbe the easter bunny stopped by and unloaded some radioactive eggs on the way to eternity......

My point is this: Dating techniques are meant to provide a relative timeframe of age folks. It ISNT a "Born-on-Date". You can get plenty of those from your local cornerstore........ Yes you have shown that dating techniques produce wide variances in dates. Relative to the age of the specimens in question, these variances are acceptable for putting things into place for now. I admit, more accurate techniques must be devised in the future to back up assertions made thus far. My counterpoint is that you have not shown me that the earth is, to borrow a quote from Sara, only thousands of years old "beyond a reasonable doubt". I would ask you to show what evidence there is that everything in our world is on the order of thousands of years old, rather than 10,000 or even 100,000 years old. Show me.......... If you can, ill go down to my local church and tithe 10% of my Dinar, you have my word......And please refrain from telling me that God put it here, I need a more concrete answer (like the easter bunny above) if youre talking about dismantling scientific theory.

-- August 15, 2006 6:06 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Tyler wrote:

"P.S. I dont need to prove that I believe in God...I do. I am a Jesus Friek, tried and true. Nuff said =)"

------------------- Sorry missed your post about not proving god exists..... please omit my last comment from the post above.

-- August 15, 2006 6:12 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

I am still stuck on the document Lance provided from the IMF. I recall in the report an additional review is to be scheduled or already is scheduled. If a third review is scheduled to me it makes since to hold off the RV until its completion.

On page three of the introduction it says: "The final stage, involving 20 percent debt reduction [is] expected by end-December 2008." From my reading of the report and Lance correct me if I am wrong, Iraq succeeded in a 30% debt reduction (Nov. 04) and a second 30% debt reduction (Dec. 05) this without an RV. Could Iraq meet the 08 date without a RV? Instead, holding current IQD exchange rates.

Food for thought. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 15, 2006 6:15 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

I appreciate your openness to consider the matter, Roger.

Supposing we start by NOT prejudging the age of the earth as being millions or even BILLIONS of years old? If we start LOOKING for a long age of the earth we can prejudice the data.

I think if we start looking to measure the distance between your house and the next door neighbor's house and begin with using the measuring stick of a Kilometer, we might just end up with a wrong measurement. Using radiometric dating where the isotopes dont even decay to a half life for such long periods of time is similar. If you begin EXPECTING to find millions and billions of years, you may just find it. Why are you using Kilometers instead of feet and inches? Might using the wrong measuring tool handicap a non-prejudicial look at the data? Might it only be a reflection of your presupposition? How could you measure such small amounts on such a large timescale? Surely it is like trying to measure inches in Kilometers?

What I am asking is why you HAVE TO start with a method of dating the rocks which measures the time in millions and billions of years, not thousands? Are you injecting into the data your presupposition that the earth is indeed that old before you even attempt to measure it because you are beginning with the assumption that evolution is true?

What if we were to look at other methods of dating the age of the earth? ARE there any other ways than using radiometric dating techniques? I ask you to consider some OTHER ways of dating the age of the earth which are equally as scientific and do yeild much younger ages for the earth:

TABLE I
Uniformitarian Estimates—Age of the Earth
(Unless otherwise noted, based on standard assumptions of closed systems, constant rates, and no initial daughter components.)

Process Indicated Age of Earth Reference
1. Efflux of Helium-4 into the atmosphere 1,750 - 175,000 years 1
2. Influx of meteoritic dust from space too small to calculate 1
3. Influx of radiocarbon to the earth system 5,000 - 10,000 years 1
4. Development of total human population less than 4,000 years 1
5. Influx of uranium to the ocean via rivers 10,000 - 100,000 years 1
6. Influx of sodium to the ocean via rivers 260,000,000 years 1
7. Influx of nickel to the ocean via rivers 9,000 years 1
8. Influx of magnesium to the ocean via rivers 45,000,000 years 1
9. Influx of silicon to the ocean via rivers 8,000 years 1
10. Influx of potassium to the ocean via rivers 11,000,000 years 1
11. Influx of copper to the ocean via rivers 50,000 years 1
12. Influx of gold to the ocean via rivers 560,000 years 1
13. Influx of silver to the ocean via rivers 2,100,000 years 1
14. Influx of mercury to the ocean via rivers 42,000 years 1
15. Influx of lead to the ocean via rivers 2,000 years 1
16. Influx of tin to the ocean via rivers 100,000 years 1
17. Influx of aluminum to the ocean via rivers 100 years 1
18. Influx of carbonate to the ocean via rivers 100,000 years 2
19. Influx of sulphate to the ocean via rivers 10,000,000 years 2
20. Influx of chlorine to the ocean via rivers 164,000,000 years 2
21. Influx of calcium to the ocean via rivers 1,000,000 years 2
22. Leaching of sodium from continents 32,000,000 years 2
23. Leaching of chlorine from continents 1,000,000 years 2
24. Leaching of calcium from continents 12,000,000 years 2
25. Influx of sediment to the ocean via rivers 30,000,000 years 3
26. Erosion of sediment from continents 14,000,000 years 3
27. Decay of earth's magnetic field 10,000 years 4
28. Efflux of oil from traps by fluid pressure 10,000 - 100,000 years 5
29. Formation of radiogenic lead by neutron capture too small to measure 5
30. Formation of radiogenic strontium by neutron capture too small to measure 5
31. Decay of natural remanent paleomagnetism 100,000 years 5
32. Decay of C- 14 in pre-Cambrian wood 4,000 years 5
33. Decay of uranium with initial lead too small to measure 6
34. Decay of potassium with entrapped argon too small to measure 6
35. Influx of juvenile water to oceans 340,000,000 years 7
36. Influx of magma from mantle to form crust 500,000,000 years 7
37. Growth of active coral reefs 10,000 years 7
38. Growth of oldest living part of biosphere 5,000 years 7
39. Origin of human civilizations 5,000 years 7
40. Formation of river deltas 5,000 years 8
41. Submarine oil seepage into oceans 50,000,000 years 9
42. Decay of natural plutonium 80,000,000 years 10
43. Decay of lines of galaxies 10,000,000 years 11
44. Expanding interstellar gas 60,000,000 years 12
45. Formation of Carbon 14 on meteorites 100,000 years 13
46. Decay of short-period comets 10,000 years 14
47. Decay of long-period comets 1,000,000 years 15
48. Influx of small particles to the sun 83,000 years 15
49. Maximum life of meteor showers 5,000,000 years 15
50. Accumulation of dust on the moon 200,000 years 15
51. Deceleration of earth by tidal friction 500,000,000 years 16
52. Cooling of earth by heat efflux 24,000,000 years 16
53. Accumulation of calcareous ooze on sea floor 5,000,000 years 17
54. Influx of lithium into ocean via rivers 20,000,000 years 18
55. Influx of titanium into ocean via rivers 160 years 18
56. Influx of chromium into ocean via rivers 350 years 18
57. Influx of manganese into ocean via rivers 1,400 years 18
58. Influx of iron into ocean via rivers 140 years 18
59. Influx of cobalt into ocean via rivers 18,000 years 18
60. Influx of zinc into ocean via rivers 180,000 years 18
61. Influx of rubidium into ocean via rivers 270,000 years 18
62. Influx of strontium into ocean via rivers 19,000,000 years 18
63. Influx of bismuth into ocean via rivers 45,000 years 18
64. Influx of thorium into ocean via rivers 350 years 18
65. Influx of antimony into ocean via rivers 350,000 years 18
66. Influx of tungsten into ocean via rivers 1,000 years 18
67. Influx of barium into ocean via rivers 84,000 years 18
68. Influx of molybdenum into ocean via rivers 500,000 years 18
69. Influx of bicarbonate into ocean via rivers 700,000 years 19
70. Escape of high-velocity stars from globular clusters 40,000 years 20
71. Rotation of spiral galaxies 200,000,000 years 20
72. Accumulation of peat in peat bogs 8,000 years 21
73. Accumulation of sediments for sedimentary rocks 20,000 years 21
74. Lithification of sediments to form sedimentary rocks 20,000 years 21
75. Instability of rings of Saturn 1,000,000 years 15
76. Escape of methane from Titan 20,000,000 years 15

The mathematical proof of formulae used for this table is explained in detail at the url:
http://www.icr.org/article/64/

At the very least, these scientifically derived ages which do not concur with the radiometric data should give one pause for thought? Surely it should make you wonder.. Are they all incorrect? Why does the data not all meld with each other? Why the huge discrepancy with the radiometric technique?

Sara.

-- August 15, 2006 9:23 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

A further note:

Unlike the distance between your neighbor's house and yours, we actually never leave the house to do a measurement on the age of the earth. It is all theoretical, not concrete. If you say it is in Kilometers and I say it is in inches or feet, we cannot get out of the house and go measure it with a real measuring tape since we are dealing with time's passage. We are both merely using tools of measurement which we think may predict for us the age of the earth. What I am asking for you to consider is that the measuring stick you are using may prejudice your view of the data unnecessarily - and to consider why other ages which are calculated by earth's processes differ so greatly from your dataset.

Sara.

-- August 15, 2006 9:37 PM ∞

---

Mary Lou wrote:

Ron

Sorry you were ripped off. I purchased mine from GID & Assoc. and have had no problems. I have referred them to others and they have had very good response and are happy with them also. Additionally, the prices are fair.

I am posting the link if you would like to check them out:

http://www.gidassociates.com/

-- August 15, 2006 9:59 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Sara wrote:

"A further note:

Unlike the distance between your neighbor's house and yours, we actually never leave the house to do a measurement on the age of the earth. It is all theoretical, not concrete. If you say it is in Kilometers and I say it is in inches or feet, we cannot get out of the house and go measure it with a real measuring tape since we are dealing with time's passage. We are both merely using tools of measurement which we think may predict for us the age of the earth. What I am asking for you to consider is that the measuring stick you are using may prejudice your view of the data unnecessarily - and to consider why other ages which are calculated by earth's processes differ so greatly from your dataset."

-------------------------------- They also vary greatly from your assertion that the earth is a few thousand years old (some estimated a few million years old no?). I am willing to entertain this possibility however. Mebbe this evidence does show that we are way off base in our calculations. Radioisotopes had to have been around for at least 5000 years though, given that conditions on earth had to be at least very similar to what they are now for life to have existed then. So this leads us to the natural question: where did they come from? Who or what porcesses made them?

Our accepted methods of dating the earth may indeed prejudice our view of the data unecessarily. You however must also entertain the very same possibility about the ones you tout..........

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Sir, drop the Dinar and step away please.........." - Dr. Strangelove speaking to Steve as he huddles in a corner with his new Dinar

-- August 15, 2006 11:28 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

So the age of the earth is the age of the biblical scriptures.

This discussion all starts from the position that God created earth, and it was done ..heck 4 or 6000 years ago. Whatever.

Wouldn't it be nice if the universe would agree with the religious belief, then we have a Bingo. Cosmos would be hole.

The whole empire of data would be in harmony, and there should be no doubt about any of them as then both will prove each other.

The fact that it is not that way, then has to be proven against, to make the knowledge empire whole again.

I'm so strongly in doubt whether to go into the particualrs in this debate, it's science versus pseudo science.

Like trying to prove frenology as superior to neurosurgery, saying astrology is the truth and astronomy have it backwards.

Alchemi, is the real truth way, and it's just a matter for the chemist to understand it.

The earth is 4000 years old (or 6000, whatever), and this is the prof.........

I'm not sure if we're floating in, on the conspiracy theory area, or just another excercise in fixed ideas.

Fixed ideas is my guess.

In the 60's it was popular to always have an alternative activity to anything established.

None of the alternative stuff stuck, because it sucks.

Being interested in Cosmology, I have come upon one theory after the other.

String theory, had it's heydays in the mid to late 80's, still they have some followers but its declining in acceptance, however any and all technical magazine love to get hold of some profesor that can have six pages in the magazine to describe his theory.

At it's height there was two main branches of string theory, one called loop theory, and one was the straight string following. The theory requires ten or twelve dimensions, but lately they seem to be down to five or six.

The expansion theory had a short but lively life, where gravity is explained with the thesis that everything is actually expanding, and therefore we are pressed to the earth. It had far to many geometric problems and it's mass could never exist, so it died pretty quick.

If you read a popular magazine where you see another theory , you will have pictures of universes that bends, that loops that turn into itself, and in the description it looks like a string of wienerdogs, twisted together.

I had a personal idea to play a new theorist standing on a scene twisting baloons to the form of pudles when describing all the dimensions in the universe.

The Big Bang are holding, it has some weaknesses, but it has been the mainstay since about mid 60's by now.

As a side line theories like this 6000 year old universe , pop up, they get their followers.

These theories are never taken seriously because none hold up for true scientific scruitiny, so they exists in seminars, websites and in this case, religious circles because they align with their faith. Books pamphlets and informationletters that "reveal the real truth", is typhical.

On occasion one of these side lines get a proffesor or something with them, and he will be the authority, his name and title will seal the certificate as bona fide science.

It's just crap.

It's borderline Flat Earth Theory, or Hole in the Earth Theory.

It's nothing wrong with challenging the existing system, the existing data, and the existing model.

However, this is done everyday, with the established science, and more practical experiments than could fill Yankee Stadium has been done and , any published scientific experiment is always open for a critical effort to try to duplicate the results, by any one else in the scientific community.

What works and can be proven is facts. That's the way it is. If any doubt, (and believe me there is always anyone that say, yeah, but...), the result can be once again tried , and retried, until the yeah but, is satisfied.

When cold fusion was announced by two profesors, there was probably not one single university on this earth that did not try to duplicate it.

It was a dud, and the professors lost their scholarship at the university, and probably are painting fences today.

Any and all data that has been collected, have all been through a long and painfull process of yeah but, and new experiments, until verified as facts.

The scientific base we have on the earth today, is collected after long and hard search for actual fact, and the body of knowledge is today the standard of our living and the standard of our civilization. What works, and what doesnt works will constatly be weeded out and sorted.

This 6000 year old earth theory belongs in the same gendre as Crystal Power Healing and Pyramid power.

It's a matter of belief, and an effort to disprove science with science.

The theory belongs on the scrap heap, but if you are happy believing it, and you really want it to fit your religious and philosophical perspective, by all means , go ahead, believe it, it's all yours.

-- August 16, 2006 2:34 AM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

WELL, WELL...IT SEEMS THE GANG IS ALL HERE DISCUSSION RELIGION IN THE LONG TERM.REMEMBER TO HUG EACH OTHER BEFORE YOU KILL EACH OTHER. The discussion has gotten heated.

I wanted to share some information with you all. I just finished a book entitled Saddam's Secrets (How an Iraqi General Defied and Survived Saddam Hussein) by Iraqi General Georges Sada with Jim Nelson Black. It was just released in 2006.

The General is claiming (as a Vice General in the Air Force and an Ace pilot for Saddam) that Saddam had chemical weapons and he had given orders to use them on Israel. During all those inspections, Saddam was disrupted in his ability to produce nuclear weapons, so he paid the Chinese scientists to produce them and apparently this decision was made very close to the time that Iraq was attacked by USA.

In addition, all nuclear weapon parts and uranium enrichment and evidence of chemical weapons were flown to Syria by commerical air planes. Saddam had the insides gutted and then used them to get rid of the weapons.

The general also spoke about the dinar in his book. You all might want to read it.

Laura

-- August 16, 2006 4:39 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Roger,

Right on!! Saved me from having to comment. Now I can go back to proving that all the Apollo/Moon stuff was done in Hollywood. Should be real easy. I will just check my past issues of the Globe and National Inquirer. Beam me up Roger.

Lance

-- August 16, 2006 4:43 AM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

Oh, and the general is also an assistant to Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi for the Iraqi Defence Department.

In addition, he is a Christian (in a minority party).

Sara, Tyler, it's interesting reading as his family ancestory is Assyrian. --Laura

-- August 16, 2006 5:11 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Interesting, Laura. I think Carl read the same book.

Steve - Thank you for your thoughtful consideration of the matter. I agree, it does not prove the age of the earth to be 6 to 10,000 years old. But I wasn't seeking to prove that, only to stimulate dialog as to why on earth these dates vary so widely and why. You showed your openness to hearing other views when you said, "Maybe this evidence does show that we are way off base in our calculations. Our accepted methods of dating the earth may indeed prejudice our view of the data unecessarily" and that is all I was bringing to the table. You and Roger have both assumed I accept the age of the earth being 6 to 10,000 years old. I never said that. But at least you did get the points I was making. I appreciate your making an attempt to view the data unprejudicially.. truly a scientific mind. I appreciate it.

Roger - I noted you didn't answer the arguments brought up, just discounted it all as "psudeo science" which is "in the same gendre as Crystal Power Healing and Pyramid power". For a "theory belongs on the scrap heap", I didn't hear a refute which was scientific, only an accusation that since I am religious I HAVE TO BE a nutcase in my understanding of the scientific data and be twisting and altering it to support my religious point of view (which you assumed and I have never actually expounded). I found your "if you are happy believing it, and you really want it to fit your religious and philosophical perspective, by all means , go ahead, believe it, it's all yours" disappointing, though. You are not even going to address any of the issues I brought up, and find it too far "beneath" your notice? In the end, I understand.. you can't make the paradigm shift from your evolutionary mentality to even give another viewpoint the benefit of the doubt, or look objectively at the data. Thanks for considering the data as far as your mindset would allow. God might not be finished with you yet. On to Dinars, then. :)

Laura, by the way, what did the book have to say about the Dinar? Any interesting new insight?

Sara.

-- August 16, 2006 7:19 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Laura;

You might find this interesting reading to add to your book read. :)
Sara.

Symposium: Iraq, WMDs and Troubling Revelations
By Jamie Glazov
FrontPageMagazine.com | May 29, 2006

Just recently, Saddam Hussein's former southern regional commander, Gen. Al-Tikriti, gave the first videotaped testimony confirming that Iraq had WMDs up to the American invasion in 2003 and that Russia helped remove them prior to the war. His testimony confirms numerous other sources that have pointed to Russia's secret alliance with Iraq and the co-ordinated moving of WMDs before the American liberation.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=22645

-- August 16, 2006 7:35 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

White House rejects talk of dividing Iraq

Washington, Aug 16: US President George W Bush rejects suggestions that Iraq be partitioned as a way of heading off worsening violence there, White House spokesman Tony Snow has said.

"He doesn't buy it," the spokesman said yesterday of an occasionally floated proposal to cut the war-torn country into separate states. "It's not practical."

"Most Iraqis don't want it," he said. "Iraqis look upon themselves not as -- at least in all cases -- as Sunni, Shia and Kurd, but as Iraqis, as descendants of a Mesopotamian civilisation that has been around for a very long time."

"And they see themselves as a nationality rather than unmeltable ethnic groups," said snow.

http://www.zeenews.com/znnew/articles.asp?aid=315780&sid=WOR
http://c.moreover.com/click/here.pl?j611940232 - also here from the LA Times (signup required)

-- August 16, 2006 8:31 AM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Roger,

I had to laugh a little when I read your post. Sara kind of read my mind about your lack of a real response. You are accusing us of being closed-minded, and going against the flow of mainstream beliefs, and that because they are mainstream then they HAVE to be right, and we HAVE to be wrong. I am not trying to have a spiritual debate. Of course the underlying question of the Genesis Story of the Bible is whether or not it is to be taken literal or metaphorical. It is very interesting however, that there are so many facts that might just line up with the Biblical timeframe. That is not, however what I am basing my position on...it is strictly scientific fact that I am looking at. It's not pseudo-science, it is real science, and if you would like I will forward you a list of very distinguished scientists, all with PhD's behind their name, that support this theory.

All this to say, if you are so adament that we are wrong, then prove it. Tell me that I'm wrong and then back it up with facts, not accusations.

So then, aside from that I just want to say that I will shake each persons hand at the pig roast and will be very happy to meet all. Having discussions like this certainly are not meant to create enemies, but to stimulate relationships. I'm glad to have met everyone, each with their own opinions and thoughts. I consider it all good...

~Tyler

-- August 16, 2006 8:39 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Kind of a follow up on this post:

http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#122707 - Marine sergeant accusing congressman of defamation

The Haditha Massacre: A Congressman Apologizes
Under threat of a lawsuit, a critic of the Marines backs off his rush to judgment
By SALLY B. DONNELLY Posted Tuesday, Aug. 15, 2006

Congressman John Kline, a Republican from Minnesota, was in the forefront of legislators this spring who expressed outrage at the incident in Haditha, Iraq, where 24 civilians were allegedly killed by U.S. Marines in November 2005. "This was a small number of Marines who fired directly on civilians and killed them," said Kline, after being briefed by Marine Corps officials. "This going to be an ugly story."

But this week Kline backed off considerably from his earlier comments. Prompted by the threat of a civil lawsuit against him by Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich, the Marine who is a focus of the investigation, he said in a written statement: "I want to express my sincere apology to the Marines of the 1st Squad, 3rd Platoon, Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, and especially SSgt Frank D. Wuterich. On November 19, 2005, in Haditha, Iraq, they were involved in an incident that resulted in the deaths of Iraqi civilians. Some news outlets have promoted incomplete statements attributed to me that gave the false impression that I have concluded those involved committed unlawful acts.

"I have the utmost faith that the Defense Department is fully investigating the matter and the appropriate decisions will be reached," Kline continued. "Should charges be brought against these Marines, and I do not know if they will be, the involved Marines deserve to be considered absolutely innocent until proven guilty. "

Kline was unavailable to elaborate on his statement, or say whether it indicated any fresh doubts about the allegations surrounding Haditha. But it may be a sign of the risks that candidates could face in criticizing U.S. troops as a midterm election approaches. "As a retired Colonel in the U.S. Marines," said Kline, who faces Coleen Rowley, the FBI whistleblower, this November, "I am especially proud of the sacrifices our men and women make day in and day out, especially in combat situations. And as a Marine Officer I would never want to publicly insinuate, implicitly or explicitly, that I have prejudged what took place that day on the battlefield or afterwards."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1227327,00.html

-- August 16, 2006 8:42 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

All,

I had posted earlier about smaller denominations. Just wanted some expert opinion on it. Am I off base? Do I need my head examined, or what?

http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#123133

Let me know something!!!!!!

-- August 16, 2006 8:44 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Roger;

A while back you referred to the Muslim who blamed God for his misfortune saying he, quote, "blamed it on him, knowing you can not drag God to court, as he is not known to have a body. He exist because you say so, and HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING."

I cannot speak to the Muslim belief in God. But the Christian belief in God is not a denial of responsibility because it teaches that there is a Judgement Day. God cannot judge us if we are not fully responsible in all our actions and it was all His fault, now, could He? Men are not computer programs running preprogrammed software commands, but sentient beings with the capacity to think and resolve their own course of action. The consequences of those actions, whether sinful or not, are unique to each individual (what goes around comes around). But beyond that generalized principle of sowing and reaping there is a final accountability for our conduct to God. No one can blame God for what they are personally responsible for and each of us will have to answer to Him for our conduct - our words and deeds, even the thoughts of our hearts. Muslim belief may indeed make them irresponsible, and the lack of RV may be a fruit of that lack of accountability - a lack of their ability to take personal responsibility for their actions and move forward, taking personal care of the country's economic business, however, to tar all religions with that same brush is to misunderstand Christianity which has influenced the mindset and business practices of the Western world and certainly teaches personal responsibility and the ability of the individual to get ahead through hard work, ethical conduct and dedication. The Western, Christianity-influenced business practices can hardly be accused of avoiding personal or fiduciary responsibilities in business or political office.

Fiduciary

adj : relating to or of the nature of a legal trust (i.e. the holding of something in trust for another); "a fiduciary contract"; "in a fiduciary capacity"; "fiducial power" [syn: fiducial] n : a person who holds assets in trust for a beneficiary; "it is illegal for a fiduciary to misappropriate money for personal gain"

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=Fiduciary

It is easier to think of Christianity as teaching that God is Sovereign - much in the same way a King is the Sovereign over a country. But that does not mean that the King is responsible for the sins of the butcher when he charges too much for his meat. The King may indeed own the country and have set His Laws over it and be able (when He wishes to) to assert that authority, but He does allow us to live our lives fairly freely within His good green earth. The problem comes when people begin to say that there is no King and they will do as they please. We call such conduct "crimes against humanity", but they are really violations of moral law set down by God Almighty within His jurisdiction. A rebel may stay a rebel and a fugitive from God's true justice on this earth, as Saddam and Zarqawi were and Osama is, but God's Laws do apply even to rebels hiding in spider holes and He can and often does seek them out (using the designated authorities He has put in place). He also reserves the final judgement on all in His domain. In reality, no one gets away with anything.. it only appears that they can be irresponsible for a time.

Sara.

-- August 16, 2006 9:59 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Steve....

I'm no expert but I believe all bills will be treated the same at cash in time. Any bills that Iraq wants to take out of circulation will be traded back to the CBI by any clearing bank that holds them. The system works the same as taking damaged bills out of circulation.

My bills are a combination of 25k,10k and 5k only because I bought what was available from the dealers in Iraq. I have a few 1k bills that I picked up in change. I prefer the 25k bills because they're less bulky.

I have friends that only buy the smaller bills because they believe if they keep each cash-in under $10k they can bypass the IRS one way or the other....this is foolish...a lot of people are behind bars right now that thought they could outsmart the IRS.

Hope this helps....

-- August 16, 2006 10:18 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Steve, you said, "My primary concern here is being able to exchange my bills in relative safety if they suddenly decide to do away with the big bills"

I do not feel you need be concerned about them suddenly doing away with big bills. The currency will not be reissued and the larger bills will be retired from circulation as the Dinar becomes worth more. If there were a 1:1 RV, that makes the 25,000 Dinar bill worth $25,000.00. There are not too many businesses will wish to take a 25,000 dollar bill today in America, are there? They would take a bank draft but if you tried to pay with a huge bill like that, a large cash bill like that just would not be welcome. I believe it will be the same for Iraq once the 25,000 Dinar note is worth enough that the 1.00 Dinar note is not worthless. When you have coins and dollar notes having true worth to them and able to purchase goods in the Iraqi marketplace, the very large bills will be impractical. They will still be honored for face value, of course, but they will be removed from circulation as they come in. A timeframe may be given in which to exchange them down to a lesser bill, convert it into an Iraqi holding account or turn them in for another currency. But those measures would take time and not be right away. The transition would not be abrupt, but would take time. The Iraqis have done a lot to make their currency respected in the world, they would not jeopardize that reputation, I believe, but they would wish to continue to have that goodwill and be viewed as worthwhile and upright to do business with (not sticking it to the investors in the Dinar, who will likely give them years of stimulus to their future economic income). You said, "I don't want to get stuck having to get rid of big bills in the early days.." so I guess you are thinking of holding for some time. I do not believe that you need be very worried that drastic changes will occur quickly with the Iraqi currency.. they have shown themselves incapable of such quick change concerning economic matters. Decisive and immediate change is not in the Iraqi vocabulary or mindset.

Sara.

-- August 16, 2006 10:19 AM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Steve,

You have a couple good points that I want to get to but am so busy today I will have to post later. But I do want to just throw this out there so people can run with it. I will provide the facts later when I can.

Steve wrote "The exact change these conditions could have had on decay rates, and the time over which these changed held true (ie the changes in physical laws caused by unknowns which Sara maintains are absolute.....) and 2) The "corrected" time that these isotopes took to decay to thier present state..."

That is a very hard question because I wasn't there. But I will present some firm evidence of an environment which would be condusive to those processes. They are, scientific evidence and proof of a global deluge (flood), rapid metamorphism of rocks to reduce a once thought theory that took millions of years to complete, that really only takes a couple years...and rapid petrification of wood, which was also thought to take millions of years to accomplish. New research shows that under the right conditions, you only need 10 years or less for this to happen.

Your next question is this:
Steve wrote:"I would ask you to show what evidence there is that everything in our world is on the order of thousands of years old, rather than 10,000 or even 100,000 years old. Show me.......... "

Ok, I will give you some real good examples...first we will look at the process of diffusion (helium decay). Then we will examine carbon dating and our little radioisotope friend 14c.

Again I just dont have time to write it all out right now, but that should help spur people on in the race for information to support both sides of the argument. Also, keep in mind that I'm not going to preach to you about creationism. If anyone is interested in that, read Genesis chapter 1. =)

Peace!

~Tyler

-- August 16, 2006 10:21 AM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Out of curiosity I wrote a letter to the IMF regarding the Dinar. I was hoping to get some inside info.. This is what I got....

Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:14 PM
To: IRQcontact
Subject: Iraq currency

Hello. Thank you for taking the time to review my email. Currently, I am
learning about currency conversions and exchange rates. My question
involves the new Iraqi Dinar. Why are some currencies traded on an open
commodity market while others are traded only in the host country? Is
there something unique to their specific economy that stops it from
entering a currency commodity market?

Thanks again for your time in answering my question or referring me to a
proper source of information.

Taylor

reply:

Dear Mr. Taylor:

Thank you for your inquiry.

Whether a currency is traded in the market or not is a decision of the
authorities of the country concerned. Also, please note that the IMF
does not have a role in the setting of exchange rates. Exchange rates
are determined by market forces and individual country policies.

Best regards,
Public Affairs Division
External Relations Department
International Monetary Fund
http://www.imf.org
E-mail: publicaffairs@imf.org

Oh well.. I feel a bit like Wille E Coyote. I have to strap some rockets on my rollerskates now to find more in depth information :)

-- August 16, 2006 10:38 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

A different perspective on outer space and our maker...
=====================================================================
The Lone Ranger and Tonto stopped in the desert for the night. After they got their tent all set up, both fell sound asleep. Some hours later, Tonto wakes the Lone Ranger and says,"Kemo Sabe, look towards sky, What you see?"

The Lone Ranger replies,"I see millions of stars."

"What that tell you?" Asked Tonto.

The Lone Ranger ponders for a minute then says,"Astronomically speaking, it tells me there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets. Astrologically, it tells me that Saturn is in Leo.

Time wise, it appears to be approximately a quarter past three in the morning.

Theologically, its evident the lord is all-powerful and we are small and insignificant. Meterorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow. What's it tell you Tonto?"

Tonto is silent for a moment, then says,"Kemo Sabe, you dumber than buffalo poop. It means someone stole tent."

-- August 16, 2006 10:47 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Sara wrote:

"The Iraqis have done a lot to make their currency respected in the world, they would not jeopardize that reputation, I believe, but they would wish to continue to have that goodwill and be viewed as worthwhile and upright to do business with (not sticking it to the investors in the Dinar, who will likely give them years of stimulus to their future economic income). You said, "I don't want to get stuck having to get rid of big bills in the early days.." so I guess you are thinking of holding for some time. I do not believe that you need be very worried that drastic changes will occur quickly with the Iraqi currency.. they have shown themselves incapable of such quick change concerning economic matters. Decisive and immediate change is not in the Iraqi vocabulary or mindset."

--------------------------- This is a valid point Sara. I would definitely agree with the notion that reputation is first and foremost at this time. My only concern is that perhaps instead of taking the currency out of circulation gradually, they decide to give a hard deadline so as to deter counterfeiters (yes I know the money is hard to counterfeit, but if its worth a lot, peeps will try). Mebbe the deadline will be around 3-4 months. I don't see exchange places popping up in 3-4 months exclusively to exchange the 25000 dinar notes. Big business (who the Iraqis REALLY care about right now.....) will have the means to go to Iraq and trade em in , but the small guy will get left out in this scenario. Just a thought.

-- August 16, 2006 11:08 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,
Thanks, yes the Globe and Enquirer, is their own papers. The funny thing is, most people laugh about the Globe and Enquirer, when they check the headlight in those papers in the checkout stand.

Elvis is spotted everywhere, a cat that is 500 pound, and all those aliens sitting at a dinner table in Oregon, having dinner with ghosts in the form of Abraham Lincoln and Molly Hatcher.

The thought is, if we know of all this whackjob papers, they must be sold , in order to survive.

There must be a significant number of people looking at it, and seriously getting a thought, that there must be something "in" this.

Pseudo science is something that is mascerading as science.

I honestly dont believe the 4000 year old earth theory is intended for harm, but just to compare pseudo science with pseudo science, the Nazi "arian" concept was taught in schools and learning institutions, and it was all in the name of science.

Still, today, that nazi pseudo science have waves that just dont want to die down easily.

It doesnt matter if geneology have proved them wrong long long ago. It just fit into some peoples mind that by looking at the world, others are not up to what they are, so they must be lower beings, and here is the "scientific" proof.

Preset beliefs preset the frame for observation.

Now, Lance, this brings me to my question to you.

Regarding the Arab/Persian culture.

The kind of journalism found in Globe and Enquirer seems to be very mainstream over there.

Conspiracy theories about everything, especially when it comes to the subject of US and Israel.

This seem to be the hot one.

Christian paranoja, and Jewish pshycosis.

I read lately one big arabian Phoha, was saying that the fight between Shia, and Sunnis was actually a carefully planned act conspired by the US, and he gave a couple of reasons why the US would benefit.

I'm sure you have heard daily explanations why things are the way the are, and more often than not, its a plot of some sort.

Things that is, are what they are, but from the Middle East that reasoning doesnt hold water, things are, because there is always someone behind it, with a sinister motive.

This, I see as one of the hardest barriers of communication between West and Middle East.

A Westerner can say, -"lets build a pipeline here."

The Middle East guy immedately seem to get a problem "Figuring it out" trying to "Really" get what he is up to.

What is the mechanics in that culture that makes this kind of simple communication so hard?

-- August 16, 2006 12:51 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Steve:

The design and implementation of the new currency had been a long process. I frankly do not see the 25000 dinar note in the short term or the long term needing to be exchanged.

If the Iraqi's phase the large note out it will be that a phase out taking sometime to accomplish. A sudden rush to exchange this bill for smaller bills would signal an instability in the currency and its RV could be pushed back even further. It also could throw the currency into a tail spin making worth much less then it is now.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 16, 2006 1:17 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

The Failing Iraq 'Insurgency'
Posted GMT 8-14-2006

In sum, the "insurgency" in Iraq remains a force to be reckoned with. It can shape American public opinion and throw a monkey wrench into Iraqi elections. But it is equally important to bear in mind that it has exacted a spectacularly high cost in jihadist lives and, as their declining ability to produce and deploy IEDs suggests, severely damaged their war strategy. Violence will likely persist in Iraq, but we've already absorbed the worst the enemy has to offer.

http://www.aina.org/news/20060814104112.htm

-- August 16, 2006 2:06 PM ∞

---

Tyler wrote:

Okie I'm still laughing...

-- August 16, 2006 2:44 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Einstein and his chauffeur

When Albert Einstein was making the rounds of the speaker's circuit, he usually found himself eagerly longing to get back to his laboratory work. One night as they were driving to yet another rubber-chicken dinner, Einstein mentioned to his chauffeur (a man who somewhat resembled Einstein in looks & manner) that he was tired of speech making.

"I have an idea, boss," his chauffeur said. "I've heard you give this speech so many times. I'll bet I could give it for you."

Einstein laughed loudly and said, "Why not? Let's do it!"

When they arrived at the dinner, Einstein donned the chauffeur's cap and jacket and sat in the back of the room. The chauffeur gave a beautiful rendition of Einstein's speech and even answered a few questions expertly.

Then a supremely pompous professor asked an extremely esoteric question about anti-matter formation, digressing here and there to let everyone in the audience know that he was nobody's fool.

Without missing a beat, the chauffeur fixed the professor with a steely stare and said, "Sir, the answer to that question is so simple that I will let my chauffeur, who is sitting in the back, answer it for me."

-- August 16, 2006 3:44 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

I have posted the following as a bit of inspiration and maybe humour. I endorse it only in so much as it promotes free thinking and broadens and challenges established theories as to how Earth and life on it came to being.

I have found an answer as to why radio carbon dating results in widely differing figures. The following is an excerpt from the 'Church Of The Flying Spaghetti Monster' website:
http://www.venganza.org/

"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him".

"Some find that hard to believe, so it may be helpful to tell you a little more about our beliefs. We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power. Also, you may be surprised to hear that there are over 10 million of us, and growing. We tend to be very secretive, as many people claim our beliefs are not substantiated by observable evidence. What these people don’t understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease".

I particularly liked their promotional material leaflets,
http://www.venganza.org/images/spreadword/sk_brochure.pdf
where they state:

Why Should You Convert?

*Flimsy moral standards.

*Every Friday is a religious holiday. If your work/school objects to that, demand that your religious beliefs are respected and threaten to call the ALCU.

*Our heaven is WAY better. We've got a stripper factory AND a beer volcano.

No wonder they promote themselves as the most logical and fastest growing religion on the planet!

I also liked the paragraph below from this link:
http://www.edelman.com/speak_up/blog/archives/2005/08/the_flying_spag_1.html

"Accepting the fact of evolution does not necessarily mean discarding a personal faith in God. But accepting intelligent design means discarding science. A 2004 poll showing that some 45% of Americans believe that the Earth, and humans with it, was created as described in the book of Genesis and within the past 10,000 years..isn't a triumph of faith. It's a failure of education...The purpose of the campaign for intelligent design is to deepen that failure. To present the arguments of intelligent design as part of a debate over evolution is nonsense. From the scientific perspective there is no debate. But even the illusion of a debate is a sorry victor for the antirevolutionists, a public relations victory based as so many have been in recent years, on ignorance and obfuscation."

-- August 16, 2006 5:06 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Rob N.

Sorry to hear about your loss. I hope you have some luck in recovering your money.

I guess the old saying "if it looks too good to be true, it probably is" springs to mind. There's a lesson for us all in that. $500 a piece for 5 mill seems too cheap. Did it seem at all suspect that the price wasn't pushed any higher by anyone else?

I can't help for most of you, but if anyone in the UK is looking to buy dinars, I have a source, contacted through Ebay that I have absolute faith in. I've done my deals off Ebay to reduce supply costs and get him down to £425($765)/million. I've ordered 11 million dinars through him. (orders of 1, 2, then 8 million) Each time I've paid by personal cheque and each time he has sent them the same day, without cashing my cheque first! That's trust. He even includes an option to sell the dinars back to him at the current exchange rate, minus postage fees, until Jan 2007.

I know you are probably thinking either he is an idiot, or he has sent fake notes, but I can say they are absolutely genuine, all with the right security features. I guess he trades on his reputation and I bet he gets a lot of refferals.

-- August 16, 2006 5:25 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Central Bank of Iraq, Ministry of Finance work to restructure state-owned banks

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

16 August 2006 (PortAl Iraq)
The Central Bank of Iraq (CBI) and Iraq's Ministry of Finance are working together toward the restructuring of state-owned banks.

The CBI has established a bank restructuring unit, tasked with advising on bank restructuring plans.

According to an August 2006 International Monetary Fund report, the Iraq's Ministry of Finance intends to appoint an international auditor to conduct a financial and operational audit of the banks.

The Ministry aims to have devised a comprehensive restructuring plan by the end of 2006.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php/article/9942

Hey Nelly B..... Is his name Eyad??

-- August 16, 2006 5:46 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Nelly;

The two statements I found most humorous from your post were:

A 2004 poll showing that some 45% of Americans believe that the Earth, and humans with it, was created as described in the book of Genesis and within the past 10,000 years.

AND:

From the scientific perspective there is no debate.

===

I find it interesting how they dismiss there is a debate when it is obvious that 45% of the people don't believe as they do. I guess the ONLY possible explanation is that those who believe in God are unscientific idiots. But if that is so, why did so many of those who founded and developed our scientific understanding also profess such a solid faith in God... these people were nobody's? Simpletons? Like Einstein (God doesn't play dice with the universe), or these Bible believing scientists of the Past:

Scientist===== Discipline founded or developed, discovery, invention or other key contribution:

Leonardo da Vinci =====Experimental science; Physics

Francis Bacon =====Scientific Method

Johann Kepler =====Scientific astronomy

William Petty =====Statistics; Scientific economics

Blaise Pascal =====Hydrostatics; Barometer

Robert Boyle =====Chemistry; Gas dynamics

John Ray =====Natural history

Nicolas Steno ======Stratigraphy

Issac Newton ======Dynamics; Calculus; Gravitation law; Reflecting telescope

William Derham =====Ecology

John Woodward =====Paleontology

Carolus Linneaus =====Taxonomy; Biological classification system

Richard Kirwan =====Mineralogy

William Herschel =====Galactic astronomy; Uranus

John Dalton =====Atomic theory; Gas Law

Georges Cuvier =====Comparative anatomy

Humphrey Davy =====Thermokenetics; safety lamp

John Kidd, M.D. =====Chemical synthetics

David Brewster =====Optical mineralogy; Kaleidoscope

William Prout =====Food chemistry

Michael Faraday =====Electro magnetics; Field theory; Generator

Charles Babbage =====Operations research; Computer Science; Opthalmoscope

Samuel F.B Morse =====Telegraph

William Whewell =====Anemometer

Joseph Henry =====Electric motor; Galvanometer

Matthew Maury =====Oceanography; Hydrography

Louis Agassiz =====Glaciology; Anesthesiology

James Joule =====Thermodynamics

George Stokes =====Fluid Mechanics

Rudolph Virchow =====Pathology

Louis Pasteur =====Bacteriology; Biochemistry; Sterilization; Immunization

Gregor Mendel =====Genetics

Henri Fabre =====Entomology of living insects

William Thompson,
Lord Kelvin =====Energetics; Absolute temperatures; Atlantic cable

William Huggins =====Astral spectrometry

Bernhard Riemann =====Non-Euclidean geometrics

Joseph Lister =====Antiseptic surgery

Balfour Stewart =====Ionospheric electricity

Joseph Clerk Maxwell =====Electrodynamics; Statistical thermodynamics

P.G. Tait =====Vector analysis

John Strutt,
Lord Rayleigh =====Similitude; Model Analysis; Inert Gases

John Ambrose Fleming =====Electronics; Electron tube; Thermionic valve

William Ramsay =====Isotopic chemistry, Element transmutation

=======

EVERY ONE of these remarkable scientific achievements came from Bible believing Christian scientists.. yet you say their beliefs are based upon whimsy and reflect nothing scientific or debatable?

That is what I truly find humorous.

Sara.

-- August 16, 2006 6:01 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Sara, Perhaps you missed the introduction to my post?

I have posted the following as a bit of inspiration and maybe humour. I endorse it only in so much as it promotes free thinking and broadens and challenges established theories as to how Earth and life on it came to being.

Still, glad you found it funny.

It would be very interesting to look 1,000 or 10,000 years into the future to see how the statistics for those believing / not believing in 'god' would be then. Some will ALWAYS insist in following faith over fact. I am having trouble understanding why.

I would take a bet that more than 45% of people on Earth believed it was flat 10,000 or even 1,000 years ago. Impossible to prove, but plausible enough.

Known, or established science was virtually zero when the bible was written (assuming the flying spaghetti monster didn't write it just 100 years ago and update all recent references to it in our history books?!) and it was easy for people to follow whatever was the common thinking at the time.

Times have moved on. Science (the search for the truth) has progressed. I AM open to science AND religion. Only the former has managed to convince me so far, with a vast amount of evidence, facts and proof.

Maybe having faith in something unknown was a common factor for these people to inspire them in the search for furthering their own expertise and knowledge of their chosen fields.

I don't argue that faith is a bad thing, just that unequivical faith in something unknown and unprovable is not something that should be promoted to others, without warning them it is such.

-- August 16, 2006 6:47 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

The fath based scientists found their way to God and apparently did a pretty good job being scientist.

How many of those mentioned in this list put forwared the scentific evidence that the eart is 4000 years old?

So it is possible to be a true scientist and a believer in faith at the same time, and even though I'm pretty sure some had their faith and experimental results in conflict on occasion, I'm sure they took the scientific ethics first and published the reasults as they found them, not as they wish they would find them.

-- August 16, 2006 6:48 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Sara wrote:

"Like Einstein (God doesn't play dice with the universe)"

--------------------------- Two words, Quantum Mechanics........ the framework and concepts troubled Einstein till his final days. Apparently someone or something does play dice with the universe. And if its god, he/she/it/they have got a sick sense of humor..........

I think discovering something new which shakes the very foundations of our belief system is very traumatic. Great minds are not exempt from this phenomenon. As the walls come tumbling down, what better notion to cling to that there must be something better out there.....

I have a friend who often says: Religion is a crutch for people who can't handle reality.......

Although I personally think religion is a good thing for many people (it quells the otherwise untenable masses), I also see the wisdom in his point when it comes to breakthrough discoveries which force extreme paradigm shifts...... as every one of the scientists in your list made. Mebbe reality got the best of them eh? Just a thought.......

-- August 16, 2006 7:15 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

One day very soon the Iraqis will have to RV the Dinar at a higher rate and start building their petro-chemical infrastructure. It really puzzles me why they haven't done it already. Why do they keep stalling on passing the FIL?
============================================================================

Iraq doubles allocations for importing oil products

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Baghdad, 15 August 2006 (Aswat Al Iraq)
The Iraqi cabinet approved on Tuesday doubling the allocations for importing oil products from $213 million currently to help ease a severe fuel shortage, an official source at the oil ministry said.

“The State Oil Marketing Organization (SOMO) signed contracts with Turkish and Iranian and other companies to raise the imports of oil products,” said a statement issued by the oil ministry’s media department.

“The contracted companies would prepare 1,100 tons of gasoline and 1,100 tons of kerosene. An extra amount of 1,100 tons of kerosene would also be imported for the electricity ministry,” the statement added.

Iraq has agreed with Iran on opening Zerbatiya border outlet to allow in the fuel tank trucks coming from Turkey and Iran, it said.

Iraq is suffering a severe fuel shortage that is almost paralyzing work in all daily activities.

-- August 16, 2006 7:46 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Okie,

I fully agree, sometimes I feel like taking a bat and work over the heads of a few people over there.I can really appreeciate all the progress being done so far, but for heavens sake, it took them forever to agree on the first goverment.

Things takes forever to accomplish.

Even the UN is a more efficient institution, and knowing how enormous slow and unconnected they are, it's a complimentary to the UN.

The UN is a non governing body, where the reps goes back to their goverments and take directions. That what makes it so slow, and unresponsive.

The Iraq Goverment however IS a governing body, but I guess they must consult with the Flying Spaghetti Monster for any and all turns in life.

-- August 16, 2006 8:31 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

If you see graffiti in truck stops saying -"Flying Spaghetti Monster Rules" you know who's been there.

-- August 16, 2006 8:34 PM ∞

---

Anonymous wrote:

Bush Was Right... Video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o762HKxYMeA

-- August 16, 2006 8:55 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Roger wrote:

Pseudo science is something that is mascerading as science.

I honestly dont believe the 4000 year old earth theory is intended for harm, but just to compare pseudo science with pseudo science, the Nazi "arian" concept was taught in schools and learning institutions, and it was all in the name of science.

Still, today, that nazi pseudo science have waves that just dont want to die down easily.

===

I agree that Pseudo science is something that is mascerading as science.

People are supposed to learn from the past, because it often repeats itself. The Nazis taught certain things as facts which were carefully controlled to fit their theory that they were the best, master race. In my quoting of science, I was attempting to show you that something similar is happening here. You have a theory into which you place your data and you reject the data which does not fit your theory. The data should be allowed to speak for itself without being discounted out of hand, or twisted to fit a pet theory.

ALL theories have their proponents and those who will say that that theory is absolutely true. You ask a Buddhist Monk if reincarnation happens, he will say yes and give you examples of why he believes that. Ask an atheist evolutionary scientist if when you die you simply cease to exist and he could say yes and give examples. Ask a Christian and they will say you die and there is a Judgement Day with heaven or hell. The point is that with all theories, even scientific theories, you have proponents of the theories who are schooled in that kind of thought and people going to that "pastor" of that faith will hear exactly whatever field of thought that person has been taught in.

The point of the data was not to say it is true (how could I when it all conflicts with each other?). But to say that there are many uniformitarian assumed processes which do not fit. Logically, that means that they are picking and choosing according to their theory. For instance - the geophysicist who said "radiocarbon dating is incorrect.. instead you should date finds by the fossil record layer.." - but the layers are based on radiometric dating techniques! This kind of circular reasoning is not logic or science. We have to get to what is behind the words "This is ___ old" and test it, you know.. true science using the Scientific Method?

Facts are based on something. When you pick up a rock, nothing on it says "I am 14 million years old". It is always subject to interpretation and it depends on what methods you use to determine its age. The only way to get away from the psuedo science - even the prevailing ones within the institutions of today (and you cannot say there is no debate today going on about the methods) - you must look only at the data and not come to the data with preconceived notions of what it will tell you. I don't believe the earth is 4000 years old any more than you do, however, when I look at the data I will not close off all data which supports that theory as being unworthy of my examination. They say if you torture the numbers enough you can make them say anything, but I am asking what the data says untortured?

To do that you must ask how reliable the data is you are getting. What is the method based upon? That is why I brought up the fact that the radiometric dating is not reliable and gives false results. I was not proving a 4000 year old earth by that but saying "Are you sure this is truly 100% accurate - what is this belief based on?" And the answer I came up with and illustrated was NO.. this is not a 100% accurate measurement. Then I pointed out that there is conflicting data (the second table) which appears to contradict the long ages of the earth and gives wildly fluctuating results. Again, I was not proving a 4000 year old earth but I was trying to look at the DATA without saying it must prove evolutionary theory OR the 4000 year old earth. I was just pointing out the need to move from pseudo science and a belief in a spaghetti monster to dealing with scientific facts. Surely if we deal with the facts and don't force them into our own constructs we can at least see how much real and plausible data we have?

I have only asked for a fair and scientific examination of the FACTS without prejudice. The court idea of "is there a reasonable doubt about this technique being reliable?" has proven reasonable doubt in the prevailing dating method to my mindset. Even Steve said it was scientifically viable to think that way. The radiometric dating techniques do have their limitations and a preset long-date belief system built into them. I just think you should consider the data carefully and look at the underlying principles... to draw your own conclusion from the data, not from a guru sitting on the top of a hill, or sitting in a University as head of the Radiometric Dating Department. Both represent set viewpoints and expertise in their areas. I was looking for a more objective and hands-on approach to judging the data itself, without prejudice. Remember, if the data is unreliable.. if there really is reasonable doubt as to its truthfulness, how can you place your faith in that interpretation? Isn't it a pseudo science if you fit any data into your own pet theory rather than let the data speak for itself? Isn't that the first step of any cult?

Sara.

-- August 16, 2006 10:07 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Sara,

This posting was a posting that finally made sense.

Time for a hug for Sara.
HUUUUUG

Yes ofcourse, as I stated earlier, the methods and findings from scientific research is constantly challenged, and constantly revised, the scrutiny in proposing new angles and new theories is as you can understand very very high, even sound ideas will by the common scientific community sometimes be unfairly revieved until acceptance is accomplished.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in challenging something old, in favour for something new.

One special weakness, like the absolute exactness of nuclear decay, is a valid objection, but only to the point that the error margin is accounted for in the age estimation.

I honestly dont know the exact percentage number, maybe you can fill me in on that, the C14 measurement, lets say it has a 10% margin of error.

In that case carbon dating something that is 500 years old would yeald a + - of 50 years.

There is a very big weakness in Carbon dating, in that the specimen can so easily be contaminated over the years.

The specimen may have been in a fire , or been submerged in seawater, and a few more reasons.

The decay clock itself is a reliable clock, but I think I have to give you another piece about it, that may make sense for you.

It's called Heisenbergs Uncertanty Principle. It has to do with those small buggers that is impossible to see, Protons, Electrons and the energies connected to those thingies.

It is impossible to tell exactly where an electron are at any given time, and it is impossible to tell if a given photon will pass through an atom structure without giving away it's energy or if the atom will take the energy, and aquire a higher state of energy.

Same thing goes with the decay clock, at what exact time an atomic structure will decay is impossible to determine.

Therefore calculations about atom behavior is not about one atom, it is about a possibiolity if it will or if it will not. To make the possibility closer and closer to actual figures and tables, you have to calculate effects on bigger units.

Bigger quantitys have to be taken into account , (Quantum...hey, there it is)

Like if you have a swimmingpool full of marbles, half of them is white and half is black.

If you were to be blindfolded and pick one by one for an hour, it is still a possibility that you would only pick one color. Still the pool have a 50/50 ratio of colors.

Another example would be if you are (theoretically) very quick in your fingers turning a flashlight on and off.

You would have photons in the wavelenght of visible light coming out of that flashlight.(Well there is a couple of more wavelenghts also in there but lets not go there)

Lets say you were so fast that you were able to turn on/off the switch that only one light photon was able to escape for every time you turned it on.

Ok, lets say you were twice as fast, a light photon is acting like a particle, and now you have only a 50% chance of ONE light photon coming out of that light.

It is a possibility that you might be able to switch it on/off a thousand times and get no photon. No light. Every time you switch it off you have the 50/50 chance of one photon coming out.

However, in the long run, you will have picked out all the white/black marbles and come to the ratio of 50/50.

Also in the example with the flashlight you will eventually reach the 50/50 line.

This is perhaps the paradox when saying the decay is unreliabel , but in the same breath say that it is an absolute clock.

In order to get a clock from the past you need to find a piece of matter, find what type of matter is in there, according to the periodic table, find what isotope of the matter there is, and you can basically say, what type of isotope it was before it became what it now is.

Again the uncertanty is exactly how much you have, remember those buggers are so small that in a very very small specimen we have to use words like Zillions of atoms.

Still even though the clock is exact, you must take it to the lab, and analyse the components, and if you had a traffic ticket and your wife is threatening to leave, you might not have dialed in the instrument eeeeeexactly , and now you're off a couple of Billions of atoms.

Sure, I can see all kinds of ways how things can go wrong, but the methods used today (ofcourse they can always be improved) is very very exact, and I would put my trust into the findings, if not, its so easy to duplicate them in a lab elsewhere, if you then would get two, far too different results,I would go to a third, or fourth lab. Probability of the first one is getting it right is pretty high. I just wouldnt have my mind on lab error, it might happen, but all in all the results from there is extreemly reliable.

There are two clocks, one is the count of isotopes,that tell the past. The other one is the present time clock, used by counting the occilations of a Cesium atom. That one is good to a second in 20 mill years. (The last second, they just called in the maintenance man and they're working on it).

Sara, hope that shed some light on your question about the uncertanty of decay as a time clock.

-- August 17, 2006 2:43 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Flying Spaghetti Monster, got stuck in my head, I love it.

Imagine that the Flying Spaghetti Monster actually DID create the heaven and the earth.

Then it would be....And the Flying Spaghetti Monster talked to Abraham and said.....

Or in Iraq, we would hear -" THE FLYYYYYYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER IS GREEEEEAAAT.

-- August 17, 2006 2:56 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

Naa, my take is that Einstein was into bigger stuff, and just wasnt too interested in the very very small stuff, Quantum Mechanics.

There are discrepancies yes, but remember that from Newton to Relativity, the discrepancy is not in an unexplainable phenomenon, NASA uses Newtons principles, and dig up Einstein only when needed, Relativity is almost nonexistent in slower fixed frames, but becomes more of an issue only when very high speed or very exact time measurements are needed.

So starting between Newton and Relativity, it's not that there is a big unsovable puzzle, its more of convenience, because the newton equations are very simple compare with Relativity equations, and the gain is so small that it doesnt matter.

The weight difference in a space shuttle being still and being in the motion it is flying in orbit, is the weight of a fly, about.

However by necessity Relativity have to be calculated more when we get into interstellar travel.

The discrepancies found with Quantum Mechanics, and any of the other two, Newton and Relativity, is in a very very short timeframe, where particles are either colliding deteriorating or energized, in particle accelerators. Some to this date unexplainable phenomenon happens, with a life span of micro, micro, micro something, that defies explanation.

Other than those, what can we call it, freak existence of freaks in an accelerator, thee is really not much that contradicts anything else. So I wouldnt lose sleep over it, and say that none of the models are in dire straits, badly in need of a keelhaul, new tires, and probably a rebore of the engine. No we are not there.

Quantum Mechanics have taken us to a point where we understand nuclear and energies very well, where we can use it, controll it and profit from its inherent power.

Simpler word for Quantum Mechanincs class, would be, to go to an Atomic class.

But yes there are discrepancies, but I just want to point out that there is no problem with the understanding of how to use all these powers.Me personally I dont intend to build myself a particle accelerator in the garage, (some people have) and have a problem with why two particles went in two different directions at the same time, as for me, if they want to do that, they can do that.

-- August 17, 2006 3:38 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

And when the Flying Spaghetti Monster created earth, he changed his mind, destroyed it and created a meatball instead.

He created oceans of tomatosauce, and rivers of cetchup.

He looked at it, and saw it was good, and ate it all.

-- August 17, 2006 3:46 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

All,

Ok, as I have stated before I am an Agnostic (not Atheist), so I look at this whole debate from a slightly different angle. I don’t disbelieve in God, nor do I believe that Science is infallible. My angle in this case is mans fallibility, it being his/hers definition of God(s) creation of the Universe and the alternate view Science is taking.

When man states that he knows the mind of God (which ever one or more he believes in), I feel like I am in Monty Pythons Holy Grail movie; “Run away, Run away.” If there is a God that created the Universe, with his/hers infinite wisdom and knowledge of everything, I feel that it would be sacrilegious for me or anyone else to define much less know what God(s) intentions and purpose is/was. So for me Organized Religion in any form is nothing more then mans/women’s attempt to decipher and codify Gods intentions, and put words into the mouth of God.

When the first thinking man looked up in the sky and saw the night sky blazing with stars he felt small and afraid. He realized that there was much he could never comprehend. Did he invent God to explain why nature was against him (lions and tigers and bears, oh my), or did God whisper in his ear and tell him why it was so? This I think is the ultimate question. Either way, once this thought was in mans head, and he then told then next person who believed him, we started the road to Organized Religion. But remember that this is still one mans view of what God told him, or what he thought, and like all religions, as the story orally passed from one to another it changed to fit, or explain current circumstances or disasters.

In many cases a religion became the political power or means to control the people. Many past religions deified the priest, shamans, or kings as the living God(s) returned to earth. Not a bad gig if you can get it. This also applies to many current religions or cults. Take David Koresh, Jim Jones or even the Dali Lama as examples. But as mankind progressed these oral traditions and religions became the truth. What really kick started much of the current power of Organized Religion was the invention of writing (before that you just had a few statues and idols to pray too). Proof positive that the pen is mightier then the sword, but it doesn’t hurt to have a few Holy Troops/Zealots to back you up. This allowed the priests/shamans to insure that there was “NO” descent or schisms within their particular creed. Put in on clay tablets, engrave it in stone, or scribe it onto papyrus, where it has physicality and it becomes the “Word of God” embodied and you have a powerful tool that makes this Word visible to all. It doesn’t matter if the masses can’t read it, it just matters that you the priest/shaman can point to it and say with perfect sincerity or not, that this “IS” the word of God. The only problem with Gods Word at this point is that it has gone through so many oral changes and interpretations to get to the written version, that it may bear “NO” relationship to what God actually said or what the first man thought. Of course the same thing happened even to the written word. Editing is a wonderful tool to insure that your view comes out on top. Many don’t realize that the four Gospels were probably not written down until 30-60 years after the death of Christ, so before then, and leading up to the written versions, there was much chance for these oral stories to be changed to fit the rapidly changing times and politics within the early churches. There were hundreds of differing stories of Christ, and many Gospels at that time from other Apostles. The problem was, these stories many times conflicted with each other, not to mention that many did not define Christ as the Son Of God. Absolute heresy too some at that time. It wasn’t until the Council of Nicea in June 325AD that Christ was voted in as being divine. So again “Man” determined Gods will. Until then, many thought of him as just another prophet.

One example of men putting words into Gods mouth is in 1654 Archbishop Usher of Ireland took the genealogy (beget who, who lived for 400 years, who beget someone else that lived 300 years (Social Security really would have been bankrupt back then)) in the Bible and determined that the earth was created October 26, 4004 BC, at 9:00 AM. Now the Archbishop never said that God told him this, he just added up all the dates and ages to come up with this miraculous date. There are several problems with this whole concept. First it is based on oral traditions which were then written down years if not centuries later, and how many “begets” were left out over those years. Second, is how many gaps are there even in the written version that he was using? I give him an A+ for effort, at least he tried. The really big problem now, is that this has now become Gospel for so many, and “NO WHERE” in the Bible does God actually tell us the date and time of the creation of the earth. I guess he didn’t keep a Day Timer handy. So we have another “MAN” telling us what God did without any verifiable proof, and this “MANS” opinion has now become fact.

Another example is Mary Magdalene. Read the parts of the New Testament that concern her (insure that you don’t confuse her with the other 3 Mary’s mentioned, besides the Virgin Mary). First she is mentioned as having 7 demons cast out of her. You have to remember the context and time this was written in. Most scholars agree that these were most likely physical ailments that were cured by what ever means. Many of these scholars also believe that Mary Magdalene was much closer to Christ, and actually the person above the Apostles in Jesus’ view. I am not going to get in to the whole DaVinci Code thing or any of the other the current Globe/National Enquirer debates. If your are interested, then please read (broadly) about the subject and don’t let the Conspiracy Theorist’s get you. But what everyone should understand is up until dear old Pope Gregory the First determined that Mary Magdalene was a reformed (By Christ) prostitute, she was venerated by many, if not by most of the early Church’s. No where in the Bible does it say that Mary was a prostitute, but instead was declared by Pope Gregory to be one. Papal infallibility not withstanding. Once again, one man, putting words in Gods mouth. And no I am not going to get into the debate of this Papal Decree, marginalizing women, and all that is entailed in it.

That is just one religion, and of course there are numerous ones, each with their adherents and believers.

Now as to Science; it is as flawed if not more so then religion. At least most if not all are going to say that “their” science is a “Theory” and not proven. But having been in scientific circles most of my life, I find that in most scientists minds, the theories have become fact. Many times they are worse then religious fanatics trying to prove a point.

Let’s look at the Scientific Method. I am a man, using mans observation through equipment designed by man. Guess what results the man is going to get? Why, the results designed by man. Is it accurate? Only so far as we can observe as a man. Pretty lopsided, only having one point of view. I believe we are still that first thinking man looking up into the blazing firmament and still trying to understand why the lions, tigers and bears (now quasars, black holes, and cell phones) are trying to eat us. Man is still trying to define his role in the universe. Even if science can go back those few more trillionths of a second to see how this all began, it will still be only mans opinion/view that we get. Do I trust Science? Yes, for the most part. Do I believe in evolution? Yes, but is it God that set us on this path? Seems that if God was smart (and he/she should be) he/she would have started small, and let this grand experiment grow. I just know that I will never understand God’s mind, if there is one, or intentions through Organized Religion. I don’t want to be putting my or someone else’s views and opinions in his/her head. I would rather be open minded and surprised when I die, rather then be disappointed because my organized religious view was totally off base. One of the greatest scenes in movie history, is in Cecil B. De Mills “The Ten Commandments”. Yul Brenner as Ramses has just gotten his but kicked in the Red Sea by God, and has returned to Deborah Paget as Nefertiti in the Palace. Nefertiti wants to see Moses blood on his sword before he kills her. Poor Ramses comes to the realization that he can’t kill her, and states; “His God, IS God”, having just found his whole religious world and point of view shattered. Fade to black.

Intelligent Design; Religion and Science both lying to each other. I find this whole idea abhorrent. Used by both sides to justify their inability to coherently discuss their differences. A very bad compromise that satisfies nothing, and tries to explain everything.

Now that I have pissed off everyone, I wish to say, that for those of you that are religious I applaud your certainty. There are times that I wish I had your vision and sense of comfort. For me, I live for today, and the future of my family, and when the time comes to meet the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Christ, I will be surprised with the new adventure that awaits me. If on the other hand it is just all over, and I become lawn food, then my opinions won’t count, but I will not have put word in Gods mouth.

Lance

Note: Lance has a Minor in Comparative Religion (back in the Dark Ages when there use to be such things) and still keeps up with this subject religiously (sorry, but couldn’t help it). That is why Lance has stayed out of the debate, because he has heard all these argument before and knows from painful experience (loss of friends, etc..), that arguing these points is almost always fruitless, and much like Streaking. You really don’t want to look, but can’t help it.

-- August 17, 2006 3:57 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Re Rob N, and Nellie,

Nellie said the old saying, if it looks too good to .....

I dont disagree per see on that, however I can se a hundred reasons why someone want to dump their Dinars for $500 and get a quick sale.

I find it very very plausable that someone have a divorce, emergency repair, foreclosure , sickness , well I could list a lot of things, and any on the bord could probably double what I would coume up with, so I would not say that just for the fact that it's a deal it's not illegimit.

Dinars have proably been sold for much cheaper than that, in a situation where a quick deal is of utmost importance for the seller.

I dont know all the particulars in the case, but as far as I have got it, it is very simple.

A criminal took the money and run.

-- August 17, 2006 4:13 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Roger,

Yes there are numerous Globes, Stars, and National Inquires types all over the world. Also many of the mainstream “Hard” new papers overseas use flash and trash on their front pages to gain circulation. I am sure we all remember Princess Dianna portrayed in many of our own major papers on the front page long after the story should have died. It was just a big seller, and guaranteed to sell, no matter what new “discovered” diary, or tell all was invented.

The papers over here (rags in most cases) are all front page bleed stories. If there is any good news it is after the obituaries. So not much different then back home. They just show bloodier pictures to shock and sell. Chris Mathews would be considered a weenie over here, but Geraldo would fit right in.

-- August 17, 2006 5:46 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

All,

Dinar News or the Iraqi economy below. Remember Dinars? They have nothing to do with religion, science, or several other things. I know you can do it!!! Think dinars!!!!

As far as the article below I can only think of one way left to the MOF or CIB to improve the economy.

Iraq Economy Faces Vast Challenge

BAGHDAD, 17 August 2006 — If the violence in Iraq ceased tomorrow, its economy would still be in deep trouble. Corruption is endemic, its state-owned industries inefficient and while there is plenty of money around, it has done little to help ordinary Iraqis. Inflation has soared since the 2003 invasion, sapping the living standards of Iraqis as they cope with bombs and sectarian killings, which claim 100 lives every day.

"The prices of everything has gone up but the salaries have stayed the same," said Nada, a 33-year old laboratory assistant who works for a branch of the Health Ministry on a monthly salary of 200,000 dinar ($135). Nada, who declined to give her last name, now stays indoors as much as possible and with the latest hike in black market petrol prices, has even stopped going to work.

Dire security conditions are a root cause of the problem, according to the country's central bank chief. "Inflation is a function of the real sector, not the monetary sector ... wages, insurance cover, the smooth delivery of goods. Security is the important factor," Sinan Al-Shabibi told Reuters in a recent interview.

US officers say rising sectarian bloodshed has pushed Iraq to the brink of civil war and efforts to overhaul the Iraqi economy will be in vain if stability isn't restored. But success in restoring security demands economic policies that can help create jobs, lift living standards and ease the poverty swelling the ranks of the insurgency. "If these other (security) actions are able to gain some traction, the attention could shift to the economy and if we had not been laying the groundwork, then very quickly it could become the focus of blame for why things were not going well," said Jeremiah Pam, US Treasury attache to Iraq.

For evidence of progress, Pam points to the debt forgiveness from Western creditors that Iraq won last year to ease its re-entry to the world financial community. It also has the backing of the International Monetary Fund, which agreed a $685 million standby credit in December 2005 and said earlier this month that Iraq remained on the right track.

But the IMF also had some stern words about prices, spiraling by over 50 percent year-on-year, and warned that conditions risked getting worse.

"Inflation remains ... a serious source of concern. The ongoing violence and supply disruptions in the non-oil economy will undoubtedly continue to put pressure on prices," it said.

Corruption is another major problem. An audit sponsored by the United Nations last week found hundreds of millions of dollars of Iraq's oil revenue had been wrongly tallied last year or had gone missing altogether. Business is being done, but it isn't often very productive in nature.

-- August 17, 2006 6:58 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

All, please read this and check out the link. Probably the best thing I have found on the Internet to date.

I promise that this is my last post of the day. But it is the most important one. While digging around the Internet I found a Federal Reserve site/link that really explains International Trading and more importantly (about half way down)how the whole FX system works. It's a little long, but is written in laymans terms for all to understand. I advise and urge everyone and anybody who has invested in the IQD to read this.

http://www.newyorkfed.org/education/fx/print.html

It also has some great links to other entities and information on the bottom.

-- August 17, 2006 7:58 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Roger wrote:

"Naa, my take is that Einstein was into bigger stuff, and just wasnt too interested in the very very small stuff, Quantum Mechanics.

There are discrepancies yes, but remember that from Newton to Relativity, the discrepancy is not in an unexplainable phenomenon, NASA uses Newtons principles, and dig up Einstein only when needed, Relativity is almost nonexistent in slower fixed frames, but becomes more of an issue only when very high speed or very exact time measurements are needed."

------------------------ You made my point for me. Miniaturization is the name of the game nowadays. With that in mind, you eventually must confront the irregularities that quantum mechanics produces. Ill provide one example, computer processors. Heat density is the primary problem right now and why? Material resistivity as well as the quantum effects produced by electrons moving around in a less than homogeneous medium. This problem is already rearing its ugly head in many everyday cases during power blackouts. The square of the wavefunction is the probability that a particle will be found in any particular location or possess a particluar energy at any given instant (depending on which hamiltonian operator you are working with). Even at the drift speeds that electrons exhibit in current propagation we are working with probabilities, not absolutes (theres that word again.....sheesh).

Einstein was troubled by the implications of Schrodingers wave equation. It shook him to the very core. He dabbled a bit into disproving it, but never made much headway. His famous statement "God does not play dice" was a statement made before the advent of quantum mechanics. It's ironic that his work on the photoelectric effect was the opening volley in what would prove to be a series of paradigm-shifting discoveries over the next 20 years or so. It wasn't, however, a leap that Einstein was willing to make.

-- August 17, 2006 9:06 AM ∞

---

carl wrote:

FACT:
Who and where you are today is the result of your past thinking..
What you think and do today will be who you are at the end of the day...

What are you going to paint into reality today....?

Let the painting begin.....

-- August 17, 2006 9:14 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Carl wrote:

"Who and where you are today is the result of your past thinking.."

---------------- How about environmental influences like family situation, socioeconomic status, etc. Do those have a role at all?

---------------- Does your rule apply to people like Paris Hilton, who are born with everything and don't have to buy thier paint supplies before they start painting? Dunno about you, but I had to buy mine more than once (some supplies got robbed along the way.....).

Lance,

Man o man, that sure was a gloomy report on Iraq you posted for today. Hope the situation with the violence will stabilize. Without that, theres not much hope of anything ever getting done....... Your thoughts on an RV? Is the delay directly related to the violence and corruption? Or is there another strategy you see that they might be pursuing?

-- August 17, 2006 9:27 AM ∞

---

Robert wrote:

Hey Lance,

That was one informative, but sobering assessment of the current situation in Iraq. Your post brought out the three main problems concerning Iraq's stability, IMO.
1. Security
2. Inflation
3. Corruption

Thanks for the needed dose of reality.
Keep up the good work.

Hey everybody else,
I'm going back to my regular posting name of "Robert", instead of "RobertD". Evidently, the other dude posted and ran.

-- August 17, 2006 10:49 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Straw man argument..
QUOTE:

STRAW MAN -
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A straw man argument is a logical fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact misleading, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.

A straw man is a bogus, distorted or deliberately-flawed argument or interpretation of an otherwise valid position that has been deliberately altered as such so it can be easily attacked, undermined, delegitimized and/or disassembled (i.e. like a cheap suit or a straw man) before the eyes and ears of an otherwise unfamiliar and impartial audience or jury.

One can set up a straw man in the following ways:

1) Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.

2) Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute that person's arguments, and pretend that every upholder of that position, and thus the position itself, has been defeated.

3) Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretend that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical. (Note - THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER.)

However, carefully presenting and refuting a weakened form of an opponent's argument is not always itself a fallacy. Instead, it restricts the scope of the opponent's argument, either to where the argument is no longer relevant or as a step of a proof by exhaustion.

An example of such an argument could be:

Person A: I don't think children should run into the busy streets.
Person B: I think that it would be foolish to lock up children all day with no fresh air.

By insinuating that Person A's argument is far more draconian than it is, Person B has side-stepped the issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Because you are not dealing with the SCIENCE behind my position, but attacking me on a personal basis (by saying that I cannot be dealing with science BECAUSE I am a religious Christian and your projecting me as being a nut BECAUSE I am religious and trying to paint me as someone who is like the 'pyramid power' and National Inquirer nutcase people and not subject to logic - note my refute to that was the many Christians contributing to science) - by doing this, you are never dealing with the SCIENCE I brought up against your position and you are simply and unsubstantiatedly calling it all 'pseudo science' - you are therefore using a straw man argument. Point three, "Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretend that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical." is your Spaghetti Monster argument.

NONE of these arguments fool anyone who has taken a rudimentary analysis of the situation and cared to stick with the FACTS. The fact is that you cannot attack the truth of the Science.. so you attack my religion. The fact that you have felt so threatened by the science I have presented as to use a Straw Man argument against me - attacking me (my faith) and not the science - means that you know that you cannot win if the FACTS are brought to light, and you are simply trying to discount me on a personal basis as being too biased (due to my being a religious person). However, to EXCLUDE all scientists who believe in God because they believe what you cannot accept is irrational, you would have to exclude all on that list I gave, Einstein included. Your bias against all who believe in God cannot be accepted as a rational basis for arguing that any science presented by someone not of your own (non-religious) viewpoint is therefore flawed.

-- August 17, 2006 12:54 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Quote:

One can set up a straw man in the following ways:

1) Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.

2) Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute that person's arguments, and pretend that every upholder of that position, and thus the position itself, has been defeated.

3) Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretend that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.

===end of quote==

This has been done by likening me to those who are part of the National Inquirer, Nazis, Crystal Power, flat earthers, etc:
Roger quote:
I suppose you want to prove that you believe in God. I think thats fine, and all that, I have no problem with that at all as you might have seen from any and all earlier postings, but just because you want to have that fact stated to say that the earth is flat, up is down and black is white, is pretty far fetched. I do believe that you as a Christian would live a happier life finding God within yourself rather than trying to prove him with absurdities. http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#123131

Your supposition is wrong. I was not trying to prove God, nor was Tyler. Is my scientific position refuted as the flat earth proponents was? Why do you not bring up the evidence then? And is the science you eventually do bring up the ONLY way that the scientific facts can be interpreted? Is there any evidence to the contrary?

You further say, "This discussion all starts from the position that God created earth, and it was done ..heck 4 or 6000 years ago. Whatever. Wouldn't it be nice if the universe would agree with the religious belief, then we have a Bingo. Cosmos would be hole." - No it isn't from that position that God created the earth 4000 years ago.. that is a MISREPRESENTATION of the position. The position was "what does the hard scientific data say about the age of the earth"... something you have not dealt with. It isn't trying to harmonize a religious belief with science, it is looking at the science without bias and trying to understand what it is saying without prejudice.

-- August 17, 2006 12:55 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

You say in this post: http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#123169

"The fact is that it is not that way ... it's science versus pseudo science...Like trying to prove frenology as superior to neurosurgery, saying astrology is the truth and astronomy have it backwards. I'm not sure if we're floating in, on the conspiracy theory area, or just another excercise in fixed ideas. Fixed ideas is my guess."

Where have you proven the science I brought up as being incorrect? These are only accusations against it without basis. STRAW MAN argument point number one of such an argument structure.

You then bring up String Theory, expansion theory and talk about the Big Bang.. ending with "These theories are never taken seriously because none hold up for true scientific scruitiny," thus attributing these discounted theories as being just LIKE my position which has ONLY been presented using scientific fact and which you have NOT dealt with on a scientific basis. You end the post saying, "It's just crap. It's borderline Flat Earth Theory, or Hole in the Earth Theory." then speak about cold fusion being discounted and say, "This 6000 year old earth theory belongs in the same gendre as Crystal Power Healing and Pyramid power."

Is this an open scientific mind which will consider the Data itself without bias? Is this a true SCIENTIFIC mind? Or do I sense a man upholding a theory without room for doubt or reexamination of its founding concepts? Are you absolutely sure? Why then did Steve say, "Mebbe this evidence does show that we are way off base in our calculations. Our accepted methods of dating the earth may indeed prejudice our view of the data unecessarily. You however must also entertain the very same possibility about the ones you tout.........." http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#123168

If it is impossible for you to do, if you can never see outside of the box of your preconceived framework, then you only give lip service to, "It's nothing wrong with challenging the existing system, the existing data, and the existing model." for, in reality you will not allow your notions to be challenged but will attack it and discount it saying every low class scumbag or dicounted idiot is the SAME as I and my fellow Christians are. Lance's agreement with you when he said, "Right on!! Saved me from having to comment. Now I can go back to proving that all the Apollo/Moon stuff was done in Hollywood. Should be real easy. I will just check my past issues of the Globe and National Inquirer. Beam me up Roger." was also this kind of deprecating and disrespectful argument without scientific basis, a mere name calling of a straw man, adding more insult but not dealing with the SCIENCE nor proofs from FACT.

-- August 17, 2006 12:55 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Roger replied to Lance by bringing up that "the Nazi "arian" concept was taught in schools and learning institutions, and it was all in the name of science. It doesnt matter if geneology have proved them wrong long long ago." and by doing so he alluded to the idea that what I have presented has somehow been disproved along with all these other straw men. It hasn't, and you are not open to any argument to the contrary, are you? You have only as of today even touched on the scientific arguments at all and those are what we were beginning to discuss when your mind snapped shut and you began your rant into Crystal Power and Nazis. You also went on in your posts about the Muslims, using these uneducated religious persons as further straw men and saying they have, "Preset beliefs preset the frame for observation. The kind of journalism found in Globe and Enquirer seems to be very mainstream over there. Conspiracy theories about everything, especially when it comes to the subject of US and Israel. Christian paranoja, and Jewish pshycosis." Again, no refute of the SCIENCE I brought up, only talk about "the Globe and Enquirer" being mainstream over there, thus alluding to all the Christians over here?, and bringing up conspiracy theorists, Christian paranoia, psychosis, etc. This is a scientific refute?

Nelly B then stepped up to the plate by providing a full charicature of faith in THE SPAGHETTI MONSTER (see point three, Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretend that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical. ) to help seal the Straw Man argument. She says, "It would be very interesting to look 1,000 or 10,000 years into the future to see how the statistics for those believing / not believing in 'god' would be then. Some will ALWAYS insist in following faith over fact. I am having trouble understanding why." - again, asserting that any science or fact I or Tyler bring to the discussion is biased and we are unable to be objective or present to the forum any true scientific evidence, but we should be discounted as trying to present that which is "following faith over fact" instead of dealing with the SCIENCE itself. I then presented a list of many Bible believing and theist scientists - including Einstein, who is reputed to have been the smartest man of his time and he accepted there IS a God (Einstein was considered by many not only the most important scientist of his time, but the smartest man alive - http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/database/einstein_a.html ) - to prove that religious belief does not prejudice a mind to understanding or presenting scientific truth and fact.

Nelly then proceeded to discuss the flat earth proponents (how was that being applied?) the fact that the sciences were not separate disciplines during Biblical times, and ends with, "I don't argue that faith is a bad thing, just that unequivical faith in something unknown and unprovable is not something that should be promoted to others.." saying by this that my presentation of SCIENTIFIC facts is to be discounted because I am a person who professes a faith. By doing so, she has just discounted everyone on the list I gave and many, many more. Even Galileo, though he went against the RC Church of his time, would never have denied his Christian faith in order to be "taken seriously" as a scientist. In all these cases, not one of you dealt with the facts which were presented by myself or Tyler. Who, then, has the open scientific mind.. and who the closed philosophical view?

-- August 17, 2006 12:56 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Roger;

You may have been prompted by my previous post to present this morning a few "science" facts (finally).. which I will get to in due course, but you do not own the scientific world or every mind within it. There are many who disagree with what you just brought up and the fact that 45% of the American population (we are not talking the uneducated in the third world, are we?) reject that position is not due to them all being blind sheep who follow the Spaghetti Monster, but due to the fact that they do not agree with your position based on SCIENCE. And, if our position is allowed to be heard, it gains more who see our scientfic viewpoint (threatening, isn't it?). When people reject the evolutionary long-age date theories, it isn't because they are all uneducated idiots who cannot understand scientific facts and they are choosing instead to believe that which flies in the face of reason and is absurd. It is because it makes sense. You are not the "enlightened" elite sitting on your scientific chairs like the Popes of old once did, dictating what the masses are to believe and what reality actually IS from your ivory towers of learning. You are men - and provably biased (the Straw Men) who wish to uphold only your own viewpoint. People sense this and dislike to be taken advantage of by superior airs of knowledge and fast talking science mumbo jumbo handed down from the Holy Mountain of Scientific Understanders from their University pulpits. Our scientific and factual arguments make rational sense to a good 45% of the American populace (and growing) and they can rely on their common sense to know it, not Quantum Mechanics. As the Primer Steve sent to me says in the introduction, quote, "In my short career, the things I have heard said about Quantum Mechanics range from "nobody understands it" to "you're not meant to understand it". I always asked myself though, "if nobody understands it, then why are they testing me on it?" One might say that QM is just another religion, however, other religions have a redeeming quality in that they tell us that, "some day you'll be forgiven and you'll understand everything." Quantum Mechanics just does not make that kind of promise. Much in the same way that you can't measure both position and momentum simultaneously, it seems that "you can't both understand both Quantum Mechanics and do it at the same time." What is meant by this is that one of the following hold: either "you understand Quantum Mechanics, but can't do it" or "you can do Quantum Mechanics, but you just can't understand it."" (end of quote) That kind of religion is not likely to appeal to the masses over their plain and simple common sense. I also wish to note that Einstein hated Quantum Mechanics and tried to his dying day to disprove it because he was convinced it was wrong, and I do think he had a brilliant scientific mind.

True, you may not accept our scientific viewpoint as true because you will not let go of your preconceived notions, but our view is rational, logical and scientific nonetheless - not a straw man such as you have attacked here. Yours may be the accepted flat earth philosophy of today, fully endorsed by the establishment.. but as you pointed out with every theory from String Theory, Expansion Theory, Flat Earth Theory and the discounting of the "arian" race as supreme (genetics) - many theories which have a heyday for a time are put in the scrap heap of history. Your complete assurance that you hold the high ground and eternal and undisprovable fact when you will not consider any other position and talk down to those of us who do only shows your inflexibility and inability to understand or appreciate the true scientific arguments and how you instead favor the Straw Men you and your fellows create. Historically, that makes you dinosaurs who, unable or unwilling to adapt to new scientific findings, will be left in the dust when those of us who think "outside the box" are able to see another reality - such as when Einstein discovered the Theory of Relativity, or any of those other men on that long list discovered and founded their sciences and inventions.

I don't mind discussing things which are against my view, but I do not appreciate the constant Straw Men arguments. Can we stick to a rational, scientific, logical and factual debate from now on without personal attacks on religion or the religious?

Sara.

-- August 17, 2006 12:57 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

On Einstein and why he never accepted Quantum Mechanics, but followed General Relativity instead.

Einstein took an active part in these discussions. Heisenberg, Bohr, and other creators of the theory insisted that it left no meaningful way open to discuss certain details of an atom's behavior. For example, one could never predict the precise moment when an atom would emit a quantum of light. Einstein could not accept this lack of certainty; and he raised one objection after another. At the Solvay Conferences of 1927 and 1930 the debate between Bohr and Einstein went on day and night, neither man conceding defeat.

"Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us closer to the secret of the 'Old One.' I, at any rate, am convinced that He is not playing at dice."

By the mid 1930s, Einstein had accepted quantum mechanics as a consistent theory for the statistics of the behavior of atoms. He recognized that it was "the most successful physical theory of our time." This theory, which he had helped to create, could explain nearly all the physical phenomena of the everyday world. Eventually the applications would include transistors, lasers, a new chemistry, and more. Yet Einstein could not accept quantum mechanics as a completed theory, for its mathematics did not describe individual events. Einstein felt that a more basic theory, one that could completely describe how each individual atom behaved, might yet be found. By following the approach of his own general theory of relativity, he hoped to dig deeper than quantum mechanics. The search for a deeper theory was to occupy much of the rest of his life.

http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/quantum1.htm

Not everyone agreed with the new interpretation, or with Born and Heisenberg's statement about future work. Einstein and Schrödinger were among the most notable dissenters. Until the ends of their lives they never fully accepted the Copenhagen doctrine. Einstein was dissatisfied with the reliance upon probabilities. But even more fundamentally, he believed that nature exists independently of the experimenter, and the motions of particles are precisely determined. It is the job of the physicist to uncover the laws of nature that govern these motions, which, in the end, will not require statistical theories. The fact that quantum mechanics did seem consistent only with statistical results and could not fully describe every motion was for Einstein an indication that quantum mechanics was still incomplete. Alternative interpretations have since been proposed and are now under serious consideration.

http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/p09.htm

-- August 17, 2006 1:15 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Roger said:

Naa, my take is that Einstein was into bigger stuff, and just wasnt too interested in the very very small stuff, Quantum Mechanics.

There are discrepancies yes, but remember that from Newton to Relativity, the discrepancy is not in an unexplainable phenomenon...

http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#123255

I think from this last post I have demonstrated that EINSTEIN was interested in it and it was unexplained discrepancies even to this day.

Sara.

-- August 17, 2006 1:33 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Steve quoted:

"Like Einstein (God doesn't play dice with the universe)"

--------------------------- Two words, Quantum Mechanics........ the framework and concepts troubled Einstein till his final days. Apparently someone or something does play dice with the universe. And if its god, he/she/it/they have got a sick sense of humor..........

===end of quote===

You are saying by this that Einstein was WRONG and that "apparently someone or something DOES play dice with the universe." I take issue with the view that Einstein was disproven. He died. There is a difference. Since then people have tried to sweep what he thought under the rug and give QM the heyday of its life.. but all parties come to an end, eventually.

You see, what Einstein was saying is that there are real and factual anomalies in the DATA that are unexplained, and that when they ARE explained, they will turn Quantum Mechanics on its head and the party will come to an end. I think he had something there. When you deprecate EINSTEIN (whose IQ and qualifications I do think qualify him for a bit more respect) by saying, "As the walls come tumbling down, what better notion to cling to that there must be something better out there....." as though he was part of a quaint old belief system which has been overthrown by the new "religion" of Quantum Mechanics, I think you make yourself too big for your britches.

I again point you away from the deprecation of the PERSON Einstein to the indisputable fact and ask proof that the theory of QM is completely sound and the discrepancies fully and completely answered. You know it has not been, as do I. I do not believe, as you said, that Einstein is among those of whom you can say, "Religion is a crutch for people who can't handle reality......." Quite a big statement asserted against a man who has contributed to science what Einstein has. You are saying he was a man who was out of touch with and could not handle reality? Einstein's predictions have been proven true time and time and time again in Physics, have yours? I think Einstein was a man based in reality and his breakthrough discoveries did force extreme paradigm shifts, as every one of the scientists on my list made. Maybe it is because God is the ultimate reality and all of them were working from the true sense of the facts. In which case, I look forward to the future when Einstein's prediction that Quantum Mechanics will be overthrown and proven wrong will become reality, finally setting to rest all the Straw Men which today are set against his position as untenable due to their implicit faith in QM.

Sara.

-- August 17, 2006 2:11 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Lance;

Dinar? What's Dinar? Oh, yes.. now I remember! :)

Well, on the Iraqi war front, this bright spot of news:

Shiite faction and Karbala authorities agree to end clashes
Aug 17, 2006, 17:16 GMT

Baghdad - The office of leading Shiite cleric Ayatollah Mahmoud al-Hassani announced Thursday it had agreed to end armed clashes with Iraqi security forces in Karbala, security sources said.

The agreement called for an end to the armed conflicts in the city, handing over the bodies of individuals killed in clashes to their family members, that the office of the Ayatollah remain under the supervision of security forces for 10 days, and the release of 219 detainees arrested on Tuesday.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/article_1191423.php/Shiite_faction_and_Karbala_authorities_agree_to_end_clashes

-- August 17, 2006 2:45 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Sara said:

"I again point you away from the deprecation of the PERSON Einstein to the indisputable fact and ask proof that the theory of QM is completely sound and the discrepancies fully and completely answered. You know it has not been, as do I. I do not believe, as you said, that Einstein is among those of whom you can say, "Religion is a crutch for people who can't handle reality......." Quite a big statement asserted against a man who has contributed to science what Einstein has. You are saying he was a man who was out of touch with and could not handle reality? Einstein's predictions have been proven true time and time and time again in Physics, have yours?"

-------------------------------- You need to read my next post Sara. Judging from your response here you did not. And please don't make the mistake of equating mental prowess with emotional stability and spirituality. This is the fallacy in your agrument: Intellect must equal some higher order reasoning which automatically lends itself to having a high capacity to deal with extreme paradigm shifts. Sorry, but thats the wrong answer. You really need to read up on Einsteins personal life before making an assertion like that......

Sara wrote:

"You are saying he was a man who was out of touch with and could not handle reality?"

-------------------------------- Reality back in his day was a classical view of things. Until litte things like the ultraviolet catastrophe and double slit experiments came along and began to unravel things. Had he stayed within the framework of the day, he probably would not have been a giant in QM. So, I say to that, yes he was out of touch with reality and thank goodness he was.........

Sara wrote:

"You are saying by this that Einstein was WRONG and that "apparently someone or something DOES play dice with the universe." I take issue with the view that Einstein was disproven. He died. There is a difference. Since then people have tried to sweep what he thought under the rug and give QM the heyday of its life.. but all parties come to an end, eventually."

-------------------------------- Its painfully obvious from this post that you are not familiar with the order of events that took place in the early 1900's. Since you are such a big Einstein fan I'm saddened to see that you don't understand that he started the entire paradigm shift. I'll give you a hint as to what he did: He won a nobel prize for it. I suggest you read about it and what implications it had on the classical view of things. Did I say Einstein was disproven? Yeah I did but the irony is that he disproved himself and he never wanted to admit it. Sign of a pious man, or pompous man? Its for you to decide, I remain neutral. For my part I think Einsteins contribution was great, but not the greatest. That was Mr. Maxwell.........

Oh and Sara, try to keep the personal remarks out of the posts. Asking if my predictions have been proven time and time again is pure lunacy. I am not a theoretical physicist. I am a clinician who uses the principles of physics to help people fight cancer everyday. Please don't presume to lecture me about how I "depreciated" Einstein. You knew the man as well as I did (less apparently judging from your post...) I see the effect that the laws of physics and Einsteins contributions have on my patients everyday. Unless you can say you have made the same contribution to society using this great mans work, step off please.........

Lance:

WE NEEDED GOOD NEWS........ its all been a pile of *$%^(*@ so far. Anyone wanna guess on wether an RV is upcoming or not? Mebbe they just want to keep the short term investors from cashing in and depreciating the value as soon as one is initiated.... any thoughts.

-- August 17, 2006 4:05 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Steve and All:

Concerning an RV in my estimation it definitely will not be prior to Ramadaan. I would prognosticate no RV in 2006. There seems to be a number of issues preventing such a move by the CBI, IMF, and the World Bank.

1. Iraq and the U.S. must end the insurgency causing sectarian violence.

2. Iraq must begin pumping out more than 2.5 million barrels a day. Iraq's goal of 6 million barrels may not be enough to measure GDP and GNP. Exporting an amount of oil equal to or surpassing Saudi Arabia would go along way to helping Iraqi economy.

3. Prior to oil production, an fully funtioning infrastructure that includes basic services like water and electricity must be accessible to all Iraqis.

4. If Iraq is divided into ethnic territories those of us who have bought Dinars will loose our investment. Each ethic region would possess its own currency and have its own regional governing body. The reconstruction money given to Iraq from the U.S. will be lost. If at all possible this must be avoided.

5. Assuming the country is not divided into ethnic regions. Before a re-evaluation of the currency can occur Iraq must pay its third stage of debt reduction due by 2008.

Frankly, after thinking about Iraq I disagree with Roger when he says the store is closing. The store may not close until 2008. The challenges ahead of Iraq are many and will take longer than 4 months (end of 2006)to accomplish.

Only when U.S. and Iraqi forces can gain full control of the country can the above issues take center stage. Only then will Exxon/Mobile and Shell/Texaco be ready to fully invest resources into the country. Again, I do not believe these issues can be resolved this year (2006).

I will continue to buy Dinars, but It appears investors in the Dinar (large and small) are years away from realizing any profit from the Iraqi Dinar.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 17, 2006 4:51 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

No problem Steve.. nevertheless I guess we must just agree to disagree on Einstein, for when you said.. "I say to that, yes he was out of touch with reality and thank goodness he was... " well, that is an interesting point of view.. But I certainly think he was MORE in touch with reality than the vast majority of mankind are and out of it came his huge contributions to this world including his nobel prize winning work on the photo-electric effect which you referred to - which is a very obvious manifestation of the quantum nature of light and forwarded the field of Quantum Mechanics.

You say, "Did I say Einstein was disproven? Yeah I did but the irony is that he disproved himself and he never wanted to admit it. Sign of a pious man, or pompous man?" I guess I have to disagree with you on his being disproven. He never admitted to being disproven not because he was pompous but because he knew he was right. I believe he will be vindicated in that belief, and do not believe my grasp of Einstein or his works is inferior to yours, though you obviously think it is. I believe if he were alive today he would defend his belief still. I know you disagree and think QM is absolutely true, even in the areas Einstein felt it was flawed and wrong. Therefore, to my mind, you oppose what Einstein was trying to prove and think he was wrong when he would say he wasn't. It is just a question of whose word is more credible.. yours and the scientific community that took Einstein's great contributions in the field of Quantum Mechanics and ran with it, or the father of the seminal ideas of QM who said they missed something along the way. I just think he had a "knack" for seeing reality that they never have had..

And I do apologise for my remarks about you personally, but if you would stop talking down to me I would feel less offense given and not respond in kind.

Sara.

-- August 17, 2006 6:04 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Sara.

You certainly have passion for your subject!

I have stated several times throughout my posts that my views and my rebutals to your posts are not to be take as a personal attack, just a strong question of your views. If you feel offended, I can understand that you might feel that way, but it is not what I have intended.
My 'attack' of your views is that "I have a problem with people promoting something as the unequivocal truth, when it is not. End of story". This applies not only to religion, but to science or any other statement portrayed as fact. I stated this above, as quoted in your post:
http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#123098

You then went on to say:

"There is no tangible proof that atoms exist either by this measurement of a TANGIBLE proof, either. It is only a theory backed up by what appear to be corroborating facts about an unseen realm. However, to state that there actually ARE atoms without question is stating a faith in that assumption because it logically works. We discuss atoms all the time based on the proofs you see from how these unseen and intangible atoms ACT. God being an unseen being, you will never get to see Him any more than you can see the atom, however, that does not make Him any less real than the atom is."

TANGIBLE:
1.
A. Discernible by the touch; palpable: a tangible roughness of the skin.
B. Possible to touch.
C. Possible to be treated as fact; real or concrete: tangible evidence.
2. Possible to understand or realize: the tangible benefits of the plan.
3. Law. That can be valued monetarily: tangible property.

Atoms do exist. They can be touched. Our physical limitations do not allow us to discern individual atoms by touch, any more than we can see far off planets without the aid of a telescope. This does not mean they don't exist. They Can be seen with scientific instruments (electron microscopes) and single atoms can also be manipulated into pattern with scientific instruments (scanning tunneling microscopes). Can you touch God?

"Manipulation of single atoms with the scanning tunneling microscope is made possible through the controlled and tunable interaction between the atoms at the end of the STM probe tip and the single atom that is being manipulated. In the STM tunneling junction used for atom manipulation, a host of interactions that depend on the electric potentials, the tunneling current, and tip-adatom proximity effects that come into play in the atom manipulation process. Understanding these interactions and their optimization is central to understanding the atom manipulation process and is required for the efficient and reliable atom manipulation needed for large-scale construction of atomic scale devices using Autonomous Atom Assembly."
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:z8e1xVjaVYsJ:www.pdi-berlin.de/jabe00/part5/6061.pdf+atom+manipulation&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=9

Your recent post today:
http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#123252
In my opinion is the most sensible, well considered, objective and unbiased (non-news) post that I have seen you write in the last 5 months. I honestly got mostly to the bottom of the post before I realised that you had written it. I am getting to see that you also have a more open view of science than I previously realised. This apparent objectiveness fails, however, when you say things such as:

1)"We can see how God acts and note the design behind all of life which points to Him. As I stated before, it is a statistically improbable idea that life came into being without a designer from non-life - and I referred to this idea of life arising from nonlife as being disproven by Borel's Law of Probability - here: http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#122874 . It I believe it is far easier to believe that the statistical probability equation is correct and life has a Designer from the application of Borel's Law and the many other instances of designing care within our known universe. For instance.. why does water float when frozen, why are we exactly where we are in orbit around the sun (if we were closer we'd burn up, farther away we'd freeze), why do we have an atmosphere, why does the earth rotate and orbit, what about the remarkable design of the human body, etc. Life truly does seem to be designed, at least to the unprejudiced mind?"

By applying Borels law, all that does is take a number e.g. 0.00000lotsmorezeros001
and ignore anything after a determined number of decimal places to become 0.0
Yes anything after 1050 to the 200th power is a small chance, but it is NOT zero chance! This is a convenient way of fitting probability to suit your idea that life has a designer. That is subjective, not objective.

To presume life was created by a designer because it is very improbable (not impossible) defies any logic to me, as logic dictates that any designer must himself have been created. It seems more credible to me that life was created from non-life, albeit a remote possibility of it occuring, than a designer than was created from nothing!

And:

2)Anselm framed the argument as a reductio ad absurdum wherein he tried to show that the assumption that God does not exist leads to a logical contradiction. The following steps more closely follow Anselm's line of reasoning:

1) God is the entity than which no greater entity can be conceived.
2) The concept of God exists in human understanding.
3) God does not exist in reality (assumed in order to refute).
4) The concept of God existing in reality exists in human understanding.
5) If an entity exists in reality and in human understanding, this entity is greater than it would have been if it existed only in human understanding (a statement of existence as a perfection).
6) from 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 An entity can be conceived which is greater than God, the entity than which no greater entity can be conceived (logical self-contradiction).
7) Assumption 3 is wrong, therefore God exists in reality (assuming 1, 2, 4, and 5 are accepted as true).

=====

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entity
An entity is something that has a distinct, separate existence, though it need not be a material existence. In particular, abstractions and legal fictions are usually regarded as entities. In general, there is also no presumption that an entity is animate. Entities are used in system developments as models that display communications and internal processing of say documents compared to order processing

An entity could be viewed as a set containing subsets. In philosophy, such sets are said to be abstract objects.

The word entity is often useful when one wants to refer to something that could be a human being, a non-human animal, a non-thinking life-form such as a plant or fungus, a lifeless object, or even a belief; for instance. In this way, entity could be seen as a "catch all"-word.

Sometimes, the word entity is used in a general sense of a being, whether or not the referent has material existence; e.g., is often referred to as an entity with no corporeal form, such as a language. Taken further, entity sometimes refers to existence or being itself. For example, the former U.S. diplomat George F. Kennan said once that "the policy of the government of the United States is to seek . . . to preserve Chinese territorial and administrative entity."

1) ok, greatest thing I can imagine, a CONCEPT, GOD is a concept, or a belief
2) Yes, I agree
3) Ditto
4) The CONCEPT exists, yes
5) The Entity is a concept, therefore if it exists in reality, it exists as a concept (belief) in reality.
6) An entity as a concept is the same as a belief in reality.
7) 3 is not wrong in this instance.

You quoted me as saying:

"Some will ALWAYS insist in following faith over fact. I am having trouble understanding why". I never said that directly about you.

My original request was that you keep on topic and not use this forum to promote your religious beliefs. The christian faith denounces all other Gods. To promote Christianity is to attack all other deities, of which there are 2849!

Therefore to request that I don't attack religion or the religious is a bit rich, considering I was only defending the right to free thinking.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is just as valid as a concept as Christianity or any other religious concept. It is not one which I follow or promote, other than to endorse its encouragement of free thinking.

I think we could both write another 100 pages or more of how our opinions differ and how we reached our views. I don't think that's really in anyone else's interests, certainly not mine. I just wanted to follow the dinar news without the oppresion of religious promotion.

Whilst this has been an interesting distraction, it has been a distraction from what we are all primarily here for; to share news, thoughts and ideas and speculation relative to the currency and economy of Iraq.

If I do not answer subsequest posts relating to religion, it is because I would rather direct my (limited) time (and energy - how many shredded wheat do you eat for breakfast Sara?!) to dinars.

No offence intended.

PEACE ALL!

-- August 17, 2006 6:05 PM ∞

---

Robert wrote:

Hey Rob N.,

Your assessment of the Iraqi dinar and its future, is an assessment that I agree with.

I think that we should be concerned with the possibility that Iraq may split up one day. Basically, Kurdistan, in the north, has been a country unto itself, for well over a decade.

The truth is that we don't have a cut-and-dried outcome with Iraq. Anything can happen. Don't shut your mind to exclude "outside-the-box" outcomes, concerning Iraq.

JMO, for what it's worth

-- August 17, 2006 6:13 PM ∞

---

Tim Bitts wrote:

Once there was a monkey, Moses, who looked in a mirror. He realized he was only a monkey, and it made him sad. He was a smart monkey, so he knew he would die one day. To compensate for his fear, he made up a belief that a giant, great monkey had created the world. One day, the belief went, we will all go to Monkey Heaven. We will have bananas forever. Then, one day, an even smarter monkey, Curious Charles, came along, and punched holes in the Monkey Heaven Theory: "How can you say there is a Monkey Heaven? You have no proof! I, however, do have proof that we are just monkeys, and we evolved from dumber monkeys, and sea urchins. There's nothing more to the story than that!" Then the smartest monkey, Tim Monkey, came along and said to George and Moses, "How can you guys know this stuff? After all, you are only monkeys. We only have monkey brains. I don't know if there is a God monkey, but I do know monkeys can only understand stuff that a monkey brain can understand. You can't ask a monkey's brain to answer a question too big for it. It's like trying to eat six bananas at once. You can't do it.

The end.

-- August 17, 2006 8:44 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,

Read the page you were refering to, really good reading, as you say a bit long though, but we have Sara here so I'm used to that.

Sara,

No I didnt "Finally" give in to your arguments, I just found that that partgicular posting you had was very good, and perhaps give you a bit of knowledge for you on the issue of decaying matter as a clock. No more no less.

Sara, you are very strongly convinced and have an unshakeable view of things.

If it is in that way, you dont HAVE TO convince anyone about it.

You give a statement, four people reply with doubts, or countrary to you.

Next day, four long pages from you to each of the offending parties, they will instatly try to make you see their point, and perhaps someone that is not perticularly interested but somewhat amuzed gives a comment.

Ok next day, long letters to each of the parties, including any comment about it. So your response is now doubled. Long pages, and the cycle starts again.

This is just an observaion, Sara, you have the luxury of listening to it, or dissmiss it. There is no communication going on, it's a one way street, any and all proposal given to you, you will automatically shoot back.

It's to the point where people try to tell you something, but it's not going through, and you still shoot overwhelming wolleys of your view, and I mean overwhelming.

You have done that in the past, and it might be in your world that you finally have gotten the upper hand, and you have convinced them about your view, and you have won one more battle for the good of things.

I want you to consider that it might be that people after a while dont give a rats ass about you as there is no entrance door there, and just give up on you.

-- August 17, 2006 9:31 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Steve:
Individuals have thousands of influences which directly and indirectly affect a soul in how they think and act. All of those influences some major and some minor have an affect on how an individual places values on things, people, social structure, percieves right from wrong, prejudices, dresses,etc...
But the fact still remains, you as an individual will make choices based on and allowed by those influences....from those decision the individual creates the reality in which they live....If you live in a box, you will still make decisions on what you do today, in relationship to living in a box.
Example....
Paris Hilton, born into an environment of wealth has been influenced by that life style, and has made decisions based on things that money allows accessiblilty too.
I believe you and I both know of the picture(some call reputation) she has painted of herself. She did that simply by her thoughts and then acting on them. If one day she decides that she does not like the reputation or experience from her present lifestyle, all she has to do is change the way she thinks...and act on the different views taken...
Steve...you are who you are because of what you wanted to do with your life....you make decisions that placed into play events which brought you to experiencing your present profession, friends, economic standing,social status, etc... your folks can push you, encourage you, etc...but it is the individual who is actually responsible in the end for where they are and who they are...if I wanted to know about steve...without talking to you, I simply would look at all of the above things just mentioned to see a mental picture of who you have painted yourself to be...
THOUGHTS-WORDS-DEEDS...the tools that create the question and answer all at the same time, that keeps being asked and answered every moment of your and my life until we leave this earthly plane... "WHO AM I?"

-- August 17, 2006 9:53 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Rob N.

If the RV will come, well I think so, because the RV will help in the overall situation.

I must give you credit though on the situation, as it is right now in Iraq.

It has deteriorated, at least from all the sources I have seen, MSM and the web.

I try to take a positive look, and saying hurray for Iraq, and hurray for the Dinar, as I have invested quite a bit in it, I do believe as you do, that it's a long term investment, but when talking RV it will be a one step (perhaps there will be more steps later) change in the status quo that has been for years now, and it will change the value of your and my stash.

However, having said that, I just have to agree with you, the situation is growing worse, and it's a maybe not completely different, but very far from the picture we had as short time as a half year back.

You may be right I may be wrong, the RV may be coming after the years end, but I think it will come much earlier because even though the electricity and water system is not fully up and running yet, that will not be a decicive factor.

They are not pumping any oil in any significant volumes yet, and their oil handling is riddled with corruption.

The "Big ones" want to get in,and with them, will most certainly, be a complete modernization of the whole oil handling from the well to the boat, and todays system with tanker trucks will be a time of the past, thus the possibility of corruption will decrease propotionally. ( but you can be sure they will try)

Before the big guys will come in, they must have their assurances that it will not be socialized overnight as have happened in a couple of other oilproducing countries.

The step before that, would in my judgement be an RV, as the Dinar is so cheap right now, the foreign companies coming in would be able to more or less do a legal theft if the Dinar stays in this very low range.

So yes I agree, it's along term investment, but the RV, well I think it will come sooner than later.

-- August 17, 2006 10:02 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Just wanted to say to all...
Things are in a flux presently in Iraq and the middle east...you know Ying and Yang with both ends getting the advantage on opposite days...so personally I have enjoyed the little diatribes of knowledge played out on the board...I must say I am much wiser about some of the subjects discussed, explained,tossed and tossed back to each writer....I almost feel like I have been to college in a lot of ways....and it makes me want to slap my professors for not having the talent some of you displayed in allowing someone as slow as I am, in understanding some of the scientific theories discussed ....on some of the subjects...I am still trying to catch up.....
I just want college credits...

-- August 17, 2006 10:09 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Roger:
I just sent you a email at scratch deeper

-- August 17, 2006 10:24 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Sara wrote:

"And I do apologise for my remarks about you personally, but if you would stop talking down to me I would feel less offense given and not respond in kind"

--------------------- My deepest apologies if I offended you Sara. I definitely was not attempting to come off as some higher authority. I say theres always someone who knows more than you, and different than you. I have no problems with that. Again, I am sorry if my post came off as conceited or otherwise offensive.

About RV: Rob, your post aligns with my worsening fears (the ones I didn't want to admit to myself). I think most everyone should hunker down for a long wait. Grab a few Dinar here and there, but wait and see overall. I had planned to hold for quite some time anyway. Would have been cool to lock in profit early though.....

Lance or Carl had posted something about a phase three of some sort being done around December 08? MEbbe my eyes were playing tricks on me but thats a bit off. I don't think they want to scare investors off, hence the slow deliberate moves..... any thoughts?

-- August 17, 2006 10:53 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Carl,

Very well said.

God, spirits , poor or rich set aside, we start and end this journey all the same.

When it was all done, the footprints left behind, was your life.

You take a lot of steps in life, it's a long walk, that might lead into dead ends, caves and deserts sometime, but along that fotprint you leave behind something that others can percieve.

Sometimes they can't percive you as you are, sometimes you can't percieve them as they are.

Sometimes when we dont like ourself, we try to be someone else, and sometimes that face is so comfortable that we even try to convince ourself that this is who I am.

Oh, It's so easy to be something you're not.

Then you ask, WHO AM I and get confused because down deep you know who you are, but being something else is more earthly rewarding.

The years go by, and for some the footprits go to the grave in borrowed shoes.

WHO AM I ?, some find it some not. Those that found it, say it's easy, those that didnt say it's hard.

Those that found it smile and laugh, those that didnt think and ponder.

Those that knows it, but didnt find it, whip themself, cry, and ask for guidance.

How do I get there, is there a system, a religion, a philosophy, a path, a way anything?

WHO AM I ?....the footprints leads to east, leads to west , but you have the answer all the time.......... it is not that long of a walk after all

-- August 17, 2006 10:59 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Sara, Sara, Sara,

My, My, I finally feel accepted on T&B. Receiving cutting comments from you about my “Right On” comment to Roger has me giddy. Just kidding!!!!! Though that reply was more of a thank you to Roger for my not having to make the same points that he made. I would have written them differently (without some of the venom), but I thought that he made valid points in the debate. This doesn’t mean I agree with either of you, I just felt that he had made a cognizant argument.

I agree with your Straw Man argument, but it works both ways. Everyone is guilty of this, because we are “All” dealing with opinions, feelings, and beliefs. Attacking anyone’s belief system is playing with fire and in your case it burns brightly.

For all,

I wonder if I didn’t touch some nerves with my belief, or lack there of. I expected to be vilified and flogged, but not a whisper. This has me curious, as by calling into question both religion and science, I expected to be castigated. I wonder if my doubts are the same as many others?

RV? My opinion:

Soon, but before the end of the year. The GoI has now stated that the Economy is the second half of fixing the Security problem over here. I don’t think they have much choice but to RV. They can only raise interest rates so much, to control the 50+% inflation rate. They also stated in their reply to the IMF-SBA that this was a considered option. I don’t think they have anything else left in their Toolbox, and they have to do something soon.

While everyone read the article I posted yesterday in a negative light. I on the other hand saw it as rehashed news about all the problems (many of them already being addressed or fixed). Many have used the Ernst & Young Audit as a sign of poor progress. But if you read the SBA you will find that the problems found by them, had already been addressed or fixed by the CBI and MOF. This is why they had the audit to begin with, a set of out-side-eyes to identify the problems and make them compliant for international banking and finance. I actually found the article positive from an overall view. You all seam to have caught the MSM crud.

-- August 18, 2006 12:27 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Lance;

Comparative religion class is Straw Men class. Look at the points - it is exactly the argument way they teach the class. They compare to things which don't work - (false religion), and discount the real by doing so. You have never been allowed to examine the real thing.

They hoped to innoculate you so you'd never get the full blown disease - face my words, you know they are true. They never really respected God nor religion, which is why you left your religion class leaving faith in God at the doorway - where they wanted you to. Don't think for a moment they would have entertained someone in that class who believed the Bible. You expect you have seen real Christianity through that lens?

The President of the United States in a Christian. I have never seen a President so villified and hated by the press, have you? Can you see their bias against him? Just make the MSM the professors you learned your comparative religion class from and Jesus in the place of the President. It fits. Unmerited, unwarranted and downright dirty lies.. consistently. They misrepresent the viewpoint the WH has given. They quoted Pace as saying "Iraq COULD end up in a civil war"... printed from the housetops in BOLD letters but in tiny print a week later we read, "Pace repeated what he told a Senate committee last week: a civil war is possible, but not expected."
http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#123097

Golly... did you notice that was what he said last week? I got the "civil war is possible" but the second part.. "but not expected".. just didn't make it into the main stream press. I have never seen such a disinformation campaign... a snow job. Well.. it is the same with religion, a definite snow job because there are interested parties with definite agendas here.

Stop for a minute and walk with me here.. think on this for a second. With the religion I profess, Biblical Christianity.. if it IS TRUE.. think about it.. just for a second do a paradigm shift.. if it IS TRUE.. then.. there is a God, a heaven.. and.. wait a second.. there really is a devil, too. What is it that guy is supposed to be doing? Oh, yeah.. thwarting God any possible way he can - lie, cheat, kill, steal, no holds barred.. anything he can do to make sure you never learn the truth.. so he gets your soul in the end. (By the way - why does this sound like the character and strategy of the takfiris/insurgents in the war in Iraq and the campaign against the US troops to make them out to be the bad guys using Abu Gharib, Haditha, etc... Hmmm?? )

Ever heard "The Spanish Train" by Chris de Burgh?

http://music.msn.com/artist/?artist=16073594# - Lyrics - http://www.lyricsandsongs.com/song/24457.html

Though I disagree with some of the theological aspects of how he treats the all powerful/Almighty God in the song - of course! - at least the artist sees there is a war going on and the booty are human souls for heaven or hell. Especially appropriate are these words, "The Devil still cheats and wins more souls.." - because, you see, you just got to see one of his cheats in comparative religion class. He never wants your soul to see the truth and he fights very hard to win.. very hard indeed.

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

But note that Comparative Religion class treated the demonic in the usual way.. she didn't have DEMONS in her.. that is wrong (even though that is what it SAYS in the Bible.. they reinterpret it and say it isn't so - and, they know because.. why? - because they are a superior authority to that Holy Book and you better believe them or you won't make it through Comparative Religion class with a passing mark?). No, instead.. they who are NOT CHRISTIANS will tell you what the faith of the Christians is.. and say it is NOT demons.. (after all, they say, demons don't even exist) but some kind of "healing" that took place. How neat. Nice discount of the Bible.. good strategy. Almost as good as making a charicature of the devil in a red suit with a pitchfork.. oh yeah, that was point three of the Straw Man argument.. make something totally absurd and ridicule it... Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretend that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical. They will teach you that of course the devil has nothing to do with real life.. there really aren't things like demons and people who believe the demonic exists are as crazy as.. as those others who think there is a God. You have been so snowed and accepted it. You have never seen what the Bible is all about because of their subtility... and if the devil were to have his way, you never will. (And God, I pray he won't have his way.)

Sara.

-- August 18, 2006 4:40 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Lance;

Your discernment in the last paragraph of your post is outstanding! :)
Sure the MSM is touting all the evil, but if you check the fine print.. the IMF, SBA, CBI and MOF... it is actually being taken care of and we are winning! Hmm.. don't see that in the MSM, do you? GREAT reading.. appreciated. Worth reposting, too. :)

You said:

While everyone read the article I posted yesterday in a negative light. I on the other hand saw it as rehashed news about all the problems (many of them already being addressed or fixed). Many have used the Ernst & Young Audit as a sign of poor progress. But if you read the SBA you will find that the problems found by them, had already been addressed or fixed by the CBI and MOF. This is why they had the audit to begin with, a set of out-side-eyes to identify the problems and make them compliant for international banking and finance. I actually found the article positive from an overall view. You all seam to have caught the MSM crud.

I agree with your assessment and think like you that the RV is likely to be soon.

Sara.

-- August 18, 2006 5:13 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Sara,

My degrees may be from a big State University, but the Minor was transfer credits from Seminaries. Comparitive Religion was their(the State's)term not mine. So your assumption is wrong. Don't worry I do the same thing myself. Seminary is where I lost my religion. I went to two different ones(Jesuit & Fransiscan) (3+years). The second and milder in an attempt to regain it, but found out that they could no more answer my questions then you can. I also found that questioning religion in such a setting is tantamount to treason. This is why if anything I have a dislike for Organized Religion. This is also why I stayed out of the debate here so long. With my training I can literally run rings around most if not all, taking either side (Jesuit training does pay off well in this case). But as I said, I have lost enough friends doing that on either side of any religious debate, and thus try to remain neutral.

Religion is all a matter of faith and belief. This is why I said that I envy you and those like you, for the comfort it gives.

Lance

-- August 18, 2006 5:48 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Lance;

I composed this before I saw your latest post (it took a while). Though I did do it from the viewpoint of your not being through "supposedly Christian" classes (Jesuit & Fransiscan), but only from secular universities, I still think it addresses the points you made. The fact still remains, you left without discovering God.. a travesty and in the secular University's case, planned that way.

I appreciated your Religion and Science post. We are very likeminded in many many of the points you made. I suspect you haven't read this entire page or was it the last one??? where we discussed whether God was something man made up, or man was something God made up. But your idea of man looking up and wondering about God made me ask.. why do we wonder or ask the questions if they are not important, anyway? Dogs don't seem to do so.. animals, I mean. Fish rarely seem to ponder their own existence or if God exists or is pleased with them. It is a strange phenomenon which mankind alone seems to have. Any thoughts on why?

You state that your 'angle' is that man contaminates God's word, basically. That would mean that God is incapable of preserving to man His revelation of Himself. Starting with GOD reaching down to His fallen Creation and wishing to initiate dialog with us, instead of man making God up - if God were indeed who He says He is - He should have the capacity to overcome the fallibility of man. That is, He should be able to give HIS WORDS to us and by His Omnipotent (all powerful) and Omnipresent (all present) Power manage to stop us from messing it up somewhere. I am not saying false versions will not occur. OF COURSE some people will take the words He gave and try to mess them up for their own agendas. Recently I saw a new Bible where they changed all the words from HE to SHE, for those who prefer God to be female. Yes, you can buy that "version" of the Bible, but I do ask you.. is it true to the texts as they were written and handed down through the Church? When Moses wrote the words from God on Mount Sinai, Moses used HE not she. Is it right to CHANGE it, and is it still true if they do? The reason I ask that is, if God gave a true revelation (revelation being that which goes from Him down to man) and if (as I said in a previous post) there really is a devil.. there will be two opposing forces playing tug-o-war with this book. One will be trying to preserve it, and the other to burn, deface, mutilate, change and destroy it (but not prevailing in the end).

If you look at the history of Christianity, those who hid in the Catacombs, who got thrown to lions, who got their tongues ripped out in the Inquisition, etc.. they were all holding in their hands the subversive literature of.. you guessed it, the Bible. And they lived and died for those words. They ate and breathed them. They believed them enough to seal it with their blood in martyrdom when they were told to recant (deny them) or perish. You say, "I feel that it would be sacrilegious for me or anyone else to define much less know what God(s) intentions and purpose is/was. So for me Organized Religion in any form is nothing more then mans/women’s attempt to decipher and codify Gods intentions, and put words into the mouth of God." and I agree. It IS wrong for men to make up a religion and put words in God's mouth. ABSOLUTELY. All false religion does this, and false versions of the Bible, too. But I ask you, what if there is a true? How would that look? Surely if God decided to tell us His intentions and purposes, and preserve it correctly for us to read, He could do it? Is He capable of doing so?

I totally agree with you, though, that, quote "In many cases a religion became the political power or means to control the people. Many past religions deified the priest, shamans, or kings as the living God(s) returned to earth. Not a bad gig if you can get it. This also applies to many current religions or cults." Absolutely. And if they put it in words and codified it, it is just codified lies. But I ask you.. what if there is a real? How will it differ from a cult which deifies its priest? I agree that there is a false, many MANY of them.. but, is there a true? Just because you see counterfeits or Straw Men, does it mean no true exists? You say, "The only problem with Gods Word at this point is that it has gone through so many oral changes and interpretations to get to the written version, that it may bear “NO” relationship to what God actually said or what the first man thought. Of course the same thing happened even to the written word. Editing is a wonderful tool to insure that your view comes out on top." That is true of a book which MEN wrote, of course. But if God wrote a book.. could He preserve even the very WORDS which He wrote? The Bible says He does:

Psa 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words, Like silver tried in a furnace of earth, Purified seven times.

Psa 12:7 You shall keep them, O Lord, You shall preserve them from this generation forever.

This says God's WORDS are pure.. and GOD SHALL KEEP THEM.. from this generation FOREVER. That is the teaching of the Bible.. that the words are God's and HE keeps them pure forever, in spite of men. That is why Jesus said not one little dot of an "i" or cross of a "t" (jot or tittle) shall pass away until all that was said in it happened.

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

If you go back to the Qumran caves where they found the Dead Sea Scrolls.. you can compare the written words of the Bible at that time to now (there are 800 manuscripts dating from approximately 200 B.C. to 68 A.D. http://www.bibleplaces.com/qumrancaves.htm ). If God does preserve His words, then those words should exactly match up with the words we hold in our hands today. There should be no discrepancies. Guess what.. they are exact with no errors. (A leather scroll of the complete book of Isaiah was found dating back 1,000 years before the oldest Hebrew text, the Massoretic text. The remarkable fact is the exactness of the two copies supporting the fact that the Word of God has been providentially kept from error. Every book of the Bible was represented except the book of Esther. http://www.abu.nb.ca/ecm/topics/arch7.htm ) I challenge you to find ANY other book that can claim that degree of accuracy over that period of time. God did indeed preserve His words.. from that year to this one. (I have a CD copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and though some of the biblical manuscripts found at Qumran differ from the Masoretic text, most do not, and all the variations are minor - mostly of the spelling or grammar kind, not of the words themselves. There is no change in what the words SAY or the doctrines they teach. No heresy to overthrow the faith, I mean.)

You said: "Many don’t realize that the four Gospels were probably not written down until 30-60 years after the death of Christ, so before then, and leading up to the written versions, there was much chance for these oral stories to be changed to fit the rapidly changing times and politics within the early churches. There were hundreds of differing stories of Christ, and many Gospels at that time from other Apostles. The problem was, these stories many times conflicted with each other, not to mention that many did not define Christ as the Son Of God. Absolute heresy too some at that time. It wasn’t until the Council of Nicea in June 325AD that Christ was voted in as being divine. So again “Man” determined Gods will. Until then, many thought of him as just another prophet."

True, the gospels were not written down until 60 or so years after Christ died. Do you know why? First of all, they were expecting Jesus to return and set up an earthly kingdom, or finish the space-time continuum (end of the world). It took them a while to figure out their interpretation of Jesus' words was wrong and that they needed the written records around a lot longer and then they began to gather them up to preserve them and make a book. Secondly, they were being persecuted and many of them were facing death for their faith. It isn't a time to publish a book or get into the fine points of doctrine when the Nazis are knocking on your door looking for you, as it were. Yes, there were hundreds of different stories emerging.. what did you expect the devil to do, twiddle his thumbs? He had to put out counterfeits and as many as he could.. he was losing souls fast! The church was growing (and a growing threat to him) and the way to stem it was to make up false gospels, just as he uses false reasoning and arguments (Straw Men) today. YES, these stories all conflicted with each other, that was the whole point, to create doubt in Christianity, to halt its spread. To the devil it was a disease and he particularly opposed any mention of the guy who defeated him as being God incarnate. How do you think the devil (who is a spirit) reacted to this Scripture:

1Jo 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,

1Jo 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

You said that many thought of Jesus as a Prophet.. well, the REAL church was founded on the beliefs of the Apostles (John the Apostle wrote that one, above) and each of them confessed Jesus as Lord and GOD, so those ones who thought him just a prophet were not the Christians but the ones the devil deceived with his false reports.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

You said, quote: One example of men putting words into Gods mouth is in 1654 Archbishop Usher of Ireland took the genealogy (beget who, who lived for 400 years, who beget someone else that lived 300 years (Social Security really would have been bankrupt back then)) in the Bible and determined that the earth was created October 26, 4004 BC, at 9:00 AM. Now the Archbishop never said that God told him this, he just added up all the dates and ages to come up with this miraculous date. There are several problems with this whole concept. First it is based on oral traditions which were then written down years if not centuries later, and how many “begets” were left out over those years. Second, is how many gaps are there even in the written version that he was using? I give him an A+ for effort, at least he tried. The really big problem now, is that this has now become Gospel for so many, and “NO WHERE” in the Bible does God actually tell us the date and time of the creation of the earth. I guess he didn’t keep a Day Timer handy. So we have another “MAN” telling us what God did without any verifiable proof, and this “MANS” opinion has now become fact.

I agree with this assessment. God did NOT authorize any timeline on when He created the earth. All He said was, He did it (In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth - Genesis 1:1). It is man's opinion and not Scriptural to say that the earth was created October 26, 4004 BC, at 9:00 AM. The Bible does not say that and does not teach that. I cannot, however, see this as discounting CHRISTIANITY, as the words of the Bible have remained intact in spite of the deception of this man and those who believe and follow his teachings. This man putting words INTO the Bible which are not there is indeed putting words in God's mouth. But the Bible IS the words of God and the Bible didn't say that.. Archbishop Usher did. Go by the words God wrote, not the words or interpretations of men. Read it, find out what it says, and you won't go wrong. Don't listen to those who tell you what THEY think it says, but read it yourself and see if what they say is true or not. THAT alone is why I quote Scriptures. Not to say I am right, but so you can see for yourself I am not giving you my own weird and esoteric interpretation of the Bible. You can get your hands on the raw data yourself.. look at it.. see if I am lying or telling the truth, and decide from there. If I just tell you my opinion without any Bible, I am not a Christian, I am a philosopher. I try very hard to explain when it is the Bible saying something and when it is only my own very fallible opinion. I do not expect you to always agree with my opinions, but you ignore the Bible's opinions at your peril for they are the words of God.

Your quote: "Another example is Mary Magdalene. Read the parts of the New Testament that concern her (insure that you don’t confuse her with the other 3 Mary’s mentioned, besides the Virgin Mary). First she is mentioned as having 7 demons cast out of her. You have to remember the context and time this was written in. Most scholars agree that these were most likely physical ailments that were cured by what ever means. Many of these scholars also believe that Mary Magdalene was much closer to Christ, and actually the person above the Apostles in Jesus’ view. I am not going to get in to the whole DaVinci Code thing or any of the other the current Globe/National Enquirer debates. If your are interested, then please read (broadly) about the subject and don’t let the Conspiracy Theorist’s get you. But what everyone should understand is up until dear old Pope Gregory the First determined that Mary Magdalene was a reformed (By Christ) prostitute, she was venerated by many, if not by most of the early Church’s. No where in the Bible does it say that Mary was a prostitute, but instead was declared by Pope Gregory to be one. Papal infallibility not withstanding. Once again, one man, putting words in Gods mouth. And no I am not going to get into the debate of this Papal Decree, marginalizing women, and all that is entailed in it."

That is an interesting dissertation. See, I didn't know that Pope Gregory the First determined that Mary Magdalene was a reformed prostitute. I checked the Bible and sure enough, it does not say anywhere that she was a prostitute as far as I can tell. The idea that she was one, therefore, is a wrong assertion. It is so nice to be able to check what you said and determine if it is true or not.. if God said it or not. Since it is only the opinion of a man, I am free to ignore it, and do. As Martin Luther said, I stand on what the Word of God says, not the words of a man or pope. Luther:

Since your most serene majesty and your high mightinesses require of me a simple, clear and direct answer, I will give one, and it is this: I can not submit my faith either to the pope or to the council, because it is as clear as noonday that they have fallen into error and even into glaring inconsistency with themselves. If, then, I am not convinced by proof from Holy Scripture, or by cogent reasons, if I am not satisfied by the very text I have cited, and if my judgment is not in this way brought into subjection to God’s word, I neither can nor will retract anything; for it can not be right for a Christian to speak against his country. I stand here and can say no more. God help me. Amen.

http://www.bartleby.com/268/7/8.html

Sara.

PS -

I think the certainty you are looking for comes from standing on a sure foundation, not the words of men, but the words which are from God, which Jesus likened to standing on a ROCK:

Mat 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:

Mat 7:25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

Mat 7:26 But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:

Mat 7:27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."

-- August 18, 2006 7:15 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Lance:
You said..."religion is all a matter of faith and belief."
I say...AMEN!
To each his own path...to each his path's experience. I never ask anyone to change their belief because of me....I believe all should stay true to their own belief system as long as it serves them in achieving the wisdom and experience of life....If the path someone adopts is christian so be it,if it is agnostic, Atheist,Mormon, Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish ...so be it...for that is the path that is serving that soul for now....once it no longer benefits that individual,.....I don't need to tell them...they make that decision themselves...and will adopt another path that serves them in that portion of their life....

Some organize religions give it a name when you drop out of their organized belief system..."Back Sliding" ....as if you have slid back into some worthless way of living....I call it "progress"....for I have lived long enough to now know ....that what I thought was initially "my life falling apart" was really in at the end of the transsition was "my life falling together..."
Sara and I have discussed this before....

I have never bought into the belief that Jesus was the only path and way back to God...or a creator...If that were true then every soul from the Jewish, Buddhist, Baha'i,Taoist, Mormon,Muslim,and every other faith or religious tradition on the face of the eath is doomed to the everlasting fires of hell...except the one path "Christianity". This simply does not make sense logically or spiritually...that is not the view I have a the Universe...I have more faith in the creator than to put human traits of jealousy,vengefulness, pettiness, immaturity, temper tandrums,and I am the King syndrom, etc on the source of power that I am in awe of.....

But then again...I did not ridicule anyone or have a need for anyone who has a different path than mind, to follow me. I am aware that all souls have to follow different paths in order to experince the things they want to experience in this life time.....for each path will bring extraordinary wisdom and insight to each...

To me a soul's true path lies inside of that person..they need to look inside of their heart, listen to their intuition, be aware..become aware..for within lies their experience of life.......What is God, the Universe, the Creator, etc...? I have answered that question for myself and it appears to be true to me...God is "LIFE..."

Religion has the tendency to say...we should govern the world on what is "Good and Bad" ....the problem with that is "Good and Bad difinitions" vary from culture to culture, then you have conflict....I say....souls should operate under the banner of what "works and does not work"...

I have heard individuals say there is no God because they can not see, touch, taste, or show proof that God exist...therefore without proof the "Source" does not exist...

I say....it is not the case of whether God exist ...it is the case of " some soul's have yet to recognize the face of the creator or the touch of his/her hand when they recieve the guidance..."

-- August 18, 2006 7:22 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Lance;

If you didn't read my post on August 8th about salvation, I think you should.

http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#122868

If you read the post and pray the prayer, it might help you to be assured.

Sara.

-- August 18, 2006 7:41 AM ∞

---

Anonymous wrote:

In the meantime....The Kurds continue with their positive path forward. More and more money is coming into this part of Iraq.
I'm considering moving my Warka Bank account from Baghdad to their Branch in the city of Irbil in Kurdistan.

=======================================================================

Kurdistan signs agreement with British Electricity Company

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

17 August 2006 (PortAl Iraq)
The Electricity Ministry in Kurdistan signed an agreement with A.T.I., a British company, to build a power generation station with the capacity of 200 Megawatts to meet the electricity needs of the region.

The Minister said that the new station will cost $30 million. The amount will be paid by the government of the Kurdistan region.

-- August 18, 2006 9:30 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Sorry....the last post on the Kurds was from me.....

-- August 18, 2006 9:32 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Sara,

Yes I did read your post on salvation.

But you made one point in the last post:

You state that your 'angle' is that man contaminates God's word, basically. That would mean that God is incapable of preserving to man His revelation of Himself. Starting with GOD reaching down to His fallen Creation and wishing to initiate dialog with us, instead of man making God up - if God were indeed who He says He is - He should have the capacity to overcome the fallibility of man. That is, He should be able to give HIS WORDS to us and by His Omnipotent (all powerful) and Omnipresent (all present) Power manage to stop us from messing it up somewhere. I am not saying false versions will not occur. OF COURSE some people will take the words He gave and try to mess them up for their own agendas.

My rebuttal:

Everything within Christianity that you believe was written down by the hand of man and thus edited numerous times over the 2000+ years since. My (Jesuit) question to you is; When is the last time that that God spoke directly to you, or you talked to someone that claimed to have been spoken to? Remember the Burning Bush analogy when answering.

The above question is not ment to poke at you, but to further the debate. I guess that I am getting the Devils Advocate role in this debate. Actually Roger is the Devil, and I am his Press Secretary.

Lance

Lance

-- August 18, 2006 9:48 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I hope everybody is in agreement that we have a healthy difference of opinion regarding religion on this forum and it's being discussed in a fairly civilized manner.

Contrast that to the Middle East situation. They tend to settle the argument with force, to the point of death.
Muslims will have to figure out how to get along or they will no longer be able to survive on this planet. They still will not admit all their roots go back to Abraham. They're worse than a Jerry Springer family fued.

===========================================================================

There is another reason why Iraq's Shiites and Kurds should strive mightily to bring Sunni Arabs into the fold. Only by winning over the Sunnis can they force a deeply suspicious Sunni Arab world to accept the legitimacy of the new Iraq. In the eyes of many in the Middle East, it is the extent of Sunni involvement in any Arab endeavor that serves as the barometer of its legitimacy. If Iraq's Sunnis oppose their country's political process, most of the Arab states will duly follow suit and attempt to strangle embryonic Iraqi democracy.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php?refid=DH-S-18-08-2006&article=9974

-- August 18, 2006 10:32 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Regarding Kurdistan,

I would be careful investing in Kurdistan, swapping over an account from Baghdad to Kurdistan to another branch in the same bank doesnt make sanse though. It's like you have an account with B of A in Florida, and swap it over to Delaware because alligators have eaten three people lately in Florida. It's the same bank.

However right now it seems like Kurdistan is inviting a lot of investment companies, like oildrilling companies, but they are right now on iffy legal grounds.

Kurdistan is acting very autonomous right now, signing contracts and giving permits over the head of Iraq's goverment. I'm sure when this is sorted out, some of the contracts will be dismissed, cancelled and written off, and if they want to operate in Kurdistan, the contract have to be rewritten with the Iraqi goverment.

I'm sure all parties will see the benefit in having the reconstruction going, and probably will be most willing to work out the situation, but the Kurds are in their own loop right now, and have been for a very long time.

They have their own goverment threre, but it seems to me that they just have not aligned themself yet with the central goverment.

Perhaps of selfpreservation, because Baghdad goverment seems completely incompetent, and their own goverment is much more trusted, as they have had this separate governing body even during the Saddam era.

The area is calm, and I have read very good reports about the reconstruciton and buidl up happening in that area, but all in all, the Iraq goverment is the ruling body in Iraq, and the Kurds are right now operating over their heads.

Sooner or later (probably later) the issue of authority will be addressed, and with it, the legitimacy of any contracts approved by the Kurd goverment.

-- August 18, 2006 11:32 AM ∞

---

forest wrote:

This page should be called: "Geeks and Jesus Freaks"

-- August 18, 2006 11:48 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Okie,

My reflection, on your posting.

I would like to take it a few steps further, if I may.

Yes, the devotion to their ideas is a life and death proposition. I have however sniffed out from the development recently that in the past, the whole Islam area was ready to stand up and go to the virgins, but as things have developed, the hot heads, is the axle of Hezbolla, Syria and Iran.

Ultimately it's Iran.

In the latest conflict between Hezbolla and Israel, Israel did some blunders ( believe me they are learning) and didnt get the full result of the war they just was engaged in.

Hezbolla had an estimated loss of about half of their soldiers, all their territory in rubble, lost control over the area closest to Israel, to be replaced by Lebanese and outside forces, and they are declaring victory, with jubilation in Damascus and Teheran.

If that was a victory, I just wonder how a defeat looks like?

That axis is right now in a jubilation mode, got new energy, and in their mind their future looks good. That will result in more defiancy with their nuclear program.They want the bomb.

This is two freight trains heading for each other, playing chicken game. No one wants to yeald.

It's not a Mexican standoff, where the positions are locked, its two moving trains.

Exactly where things are going from here is for me unknown, but those are the ingredience in the cocktail.

-- August 18, 2006 11:53 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Forest,

I thought of naming it, "Nothing to do with Harley Davidson".

Na, bad joke, it's just that a geek have designed your Harley, and he probably is a Jesus freak at the same time.

Enjoy the ride.

-- August 18, 2006 12:00 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Amen Forest!!

-- August 18, 2006 12:06 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Lance posted:

"While everyone read the article I posted yesterday in a negative light. I on the other hand saw it as rehashed news about all the problems (many of them already being addressed or fixed). Many have used the Ernst & Young Audit as a sign of poor progress. But if you read the SBA you will find that the problems found by them, had already been addressed or fixed by the CBI and MOF. This is why they had the audit to begin with, a set of out-side-eyes to identify the problems and make them compliant for international banking and finance. I actually found the article positive from an overall view."

---------------------------- Will the roller coaster ride ever end? I don't get as much good info as you do you. Keep the posts coming, I read the last one as being a new revelation (as I don't get much info). I appreciate all of the info you provide and love the knowledge....

Lance, do you have an idea of how the security situation is over there? What is the mood on the streets? I know inflaton is a big problem and the solution will be to put more jobs and money into the hands of the poor. Do you see progress in job creation and security? These are the two main facotrs that need to be addressed IMO.

-- August 18, 2006 12:42 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Its Been...
My experience that when a person starts to put labels on someone they are usually the ones who are intimidated. It is simply a defensive move in an attempt to re-enforce their own self confidence, by belittling someone or something they do not have the capability to understand...

The path that takes less intellgence is usually the most crowded....for to do otherwise takes backbone to stand up for your beliefs and how you view the world...

-- August 18, 2006 12:50 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Lance;

I wonder if what you have asked is a sincere request for information or not? I feel like Jesus when they came to Him with money and asked if it is lawful to pay taxes to Caesar. Any answer is a landmine and can be misconstrued. If I say yes, I heard from God recently, the quote you made recently came to mind - "If you talk to god, it is called praying; if God talks to you, you have schizophrenia." – Thomas Szasz. And, if I say God has NOT talked to me anytime recently, then I am only following a manmade religious system without any reality to it, right? Hmm.. which do I prefer to be accused of - mental instability or being in a dead religion and out of touch with God?

What you are asking, however, is whether Christianity is true or not. That can be objectively rather than subjectively measured by looking at its claims. My experience concerning Christianity is not the measurement of its truth or not. Christianity does not rest on individual experience, but on objective truth. Things like - Did Jesus actually live at one time on earth? Is that Historic fact? Did He die on a Roman Cross? Is He reputed to have risen from the grave? Can a person be truly changed (born again) if they follow this religion? Is there any evidence to support its being truth both objectively and subjectively?

But more than just validating certain facts and looking into the general effect of the religion is this quote from Jesus:

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
Joh 7:17 If anyone wants to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.
Joh 7:18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.

I, too, do not wish to speak "on my own authority" or seek my own glory, but only that God might be seen and glorified. I therefore suggest that you do the teachings of Jesus Christ to see if what He said was teachings of men (speaking only "on My own authority") or the teachings of God. That way your faith does not rest on me and my experiencing of Christianity (or lack thereof), but only on what God here says will be verifiably true to your own soul... "he shall KNOW concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority." If you want to truly know if it is from God or not, try Jesus' prescription. It never fails. Your trust should be in Jesus Christ and His words, not mine.

The devotion I had for today was relevant thought and says:

"Strangers are come into the sanctuaries of the Lord's house." --Jeremiah 51:51

In this account the faces of the Lord's people were covered with shame, for it was a terrible thing that men should intrude into the Holy Place reserved for the priests alone. Everywhere about us we see like cause for sorrow. How many ungodly men are now educating with the view of entering into the ministry! What a crying sin is that solemn lie by which our whole population is nominally comprehended in a National Church! How fearful it is that ordinances should be pressed upon the unconverted, and that among the more enlightened churches of our land there should be such laxity of discipline. If the thousands who will read this portion shall all take this matter before the Lord Jesus this day, He will interfere and avert the evil which else will come upon His Church. To adulterate the Church is to pollute a well, to pour water upon fire, to sow a fertile field with stones. May we all have grace to maintain in our own proper way the purity of the Church, as being an assembly of believers, and not a nation, an unsaved community of unconverted men.
Our zeal must, however, begin at home. Let us examine ourselves as to our right to eat at the Lord's table. Let us see to it that we have on our wedding garment, lest we ourselves be intruders in the Lord's sanctuaries. Many are called, but few are chosen; the way is narrow, and the gate is strait. O for grace to come to Jesus aright, with the faith of God's elect. He who smote Uzzah for touching the ark is very jealous of His two ordinances; as a true believer I may approach them freely, as an alien I must not touch them lest I die. Heartsearching is the duty of all who are baptized or come to the Lord's table. "Search me, O God, and know my way, try me and know my heart."

-Charles Haddon Spurgeon (1834 - 1892)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Spurgeon

Sara.

-- August 18, 2006 1:26 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Do you think a vehicle ban could serve two purposes??

Vehicles Banned in Baghdad For 2 Days
By VOA News 18 August 2006

Iraq's government says it is banning vehicle traffic in Baghdad, starting Friday at 9:00 p.m. local time (1700 UTC).

The driving ban comes as thousands of Shi'ites converge on the capital to mark the martyrdom of a revered eighth century imam.

Last year during this religious pilgrimage, nearly 1,000 people died in a stampede on a bridge.

The vehicle curfew is part of a security operation intended to keep the pilgrims safe. It will continue until 6:00 a.m. Monday morning local time (0200 UTC).

http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-08-18-voa40.cfm

-- August 18, 2006 2:56 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Intel sees huge potential in Iraq despite hostile conditions for business
By Ivan Gale, Staff Reporter Published: 08/18/2006

Dubai: Al Karam is just one of many executives aware of the huge potential in Iraq. With 26 million residents and little existing infrastructure, possibilities seem great, but the current unrest makes it dangerous to do business there.

However, the IT field is slowly burgeoning there, and its clean slate gives it a chance to leapfrog and adopt the most advanced technologies. There are four mobile operators throughout the country. And in the last two months, the government gave go-aheads for new broadband wireless technologies.

Makar Research estimates that one in 33 Iraqis owns a computer, one in six owns a mobile phone, and ISPs there serve 1.6 million Internee subscrib-ers. IDC doesn't formally study the country, but says computers are trucked in from Kuwait and Jordan, with most demand coming from US military and foreign contractors.

Recently Al Karam donated 150 computers to create computer laboratories, two at Baghdad universities and one in northern Iraq. He chose laptops for their mobility, and whose battery packs could allow them to operate during rolling blackouts. Computer classes employ the laptops during the day, and during off hours the labs turn into cyber cafés.

Fact file: At a glance

Iraq ranks 16 out of 18 countries in Middle East/North Africa according to a Makar Research technology survey
Fixed line subscribers: 1.7 million
Mobile Phone subscribers: 4.6 million
Computer installed base: 780,000
Internet users: 1.6 million
Total population: 26 million

Source: Makar Research, CIA Factbook

http://www.gulfnews.com/business/Technology/10060965.html

-- August 18, 2006 3:10 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Taxmama;

Could you fill us in on the Conference Call that happened yesterday?
Is Dr Q still saying a soon RV?
I heard that those on the call said that it would indeed happen this month, is that right?

Sara.

-- August 18, 2006 3:13 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Iraqi forces ready to take charge of security: PM
Web posted at: 8/18/2006 3:52:23

BAGHDAD • Iraqi government forces are ready to take charge of security in most of the country and would be able to cope if US-led coalition forces pulled out, Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki said Thursday.

“Iraqi forces are now capable of taking charge of security tasks in most of Iraq’s provinces and would be able to fill the vacuum if multinational forces withdrew,” he said, after receiving his Slovak counterpart, Robert Fico.

US commanders are in the process of handing responsibility for security in Iraq to Maliki’s government forces, but expect to still be in command in the most violent areas around Baghdad into the early months of next year.

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=World_News&subsection=Gulf%2C+Middle+East+%26+Africa&month=August2006&file=World_News2006081835223.xml

-- August 18, 2006 3:34 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

I see the discussion is still continuing around the existence of God. For those of you that claim to be either athiest or agnostics consider the following comparison between evolution and creationism.

Evolution or Neo-Evolution hinges on the writings of one man, namely Charles Darwin. In contrast, the Bible was written over a period of centuries and written by different authors, yet with one message. All centered on Jesus Christ.

Evolution has an incomplete fossil record it no way can fill in all the gaps. For example drawings of Piltdown Man and Neandrathal man are artists renditions meaning no concrete evidence exists to conclusively determine that "early man" looked like those drawings in science textbooks. In contrast, Genesis (the book of beginnings) give us a full explination as to what early man looked like. Adam was created in the image of God. The best Darwin could come up with is a monkey. Now, do you want to evolve from a monkey or made in the image of divinity. I personally will take the divine.

Now let us compare the one man of evolution, Charles Darwin with the one God/Man Jesus Christ. Charles Darwin was a racist. He believed the African American brain to me much smaller and therfore making those people less intelligent than their caucasian counter-parts.

Jesus Christ ministry is egalitarian in nature. Those that accept him as the Son of God were given fellowship. Darwin's requirement for intelligence is skin color.

Next, When was Charles Darwin born? When did he die? Where is he now? Darwin is dead. Where is Jesus Christ? Sitting at the right hand of the father. Both internal biblical evidence and external evidence gives overwhelming proof of the resurrection of Christ from the dead. Again, where is Darwin?

One last point. Darwinian Evolution has "evolved" into Neo-Darwinian Evolution. (Would this be considered Macro-Evolution or Micro-Evolution?) Anytime a movement seeks to alter its message to iron out contradictions it necessitates a change. Unlike Evolution, the Christian message has remained the same since Jesus walked the earth.

Finally, from anyone on the board. Will you please give me a recent example (within the 100 years) of Macro-Evolution?

Lance, your comment to Sara: "Religion is all a matter of faith and belief. This is why I said that I envy you and those like you, for the comfort it gives." You do not have to envy the Christian faith and wish for its comfort. I think your wrong. Christianity/A belief in Christ is not a mere belief it is historical fact and is objective truth.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 18, 2006 3:34 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Sara,

Wish I had that positive outlook of yours sometimes. At any rate you seem to have access to good info. I missed the RV discussion (pertaining to later this month). Lance seemed to indicate that this was the governments only recourse at this time. Before the end of the month seems a bit optimistic though. There are more dinar in existence than first believed, but how much is actually floating around on the street? It will probably be in the 5 cent to 10 cent range methinks....... thoughts?

-- August 18, 2006 3:39 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Bush: Critics want to 'cut and run' from Iraq
Thursday, August 17, 2006; Posted: 10:03 a.m. EDT (14:03 GMT)

LANCASTER, Pennsylvania (AP) -- President Bush said critics of his Iraq policies are advocating a "cut and run" strategy that would draw terrorists to American soil.

"Leaving before we complete our mission would create a terrorist state in the heart of the Middle East, a country with huge oil reserves that the terrorist network would be willing to use to extract economic pain from those of us who believe in freedom," Bush said Wednesday.

"If we leave before the mission is complete, if we withdraw, the enemy will follow us home," he said.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/17/bush.ap/index.html

-- August 18, 2006 3:51 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Jordan envoy first accredited Arab ambassador in Iraq
Aug. 18, 2006, AP
By RAWYA RAGEH

BAGHDAD, Iraq — Jordanian envoy Ahmed al-Lozi has presented his credentials to the Iraqi government, becoming the first fully accredited Arab ambassador in the country since the fall of Saddam Hussein, an official said today.

President Jalal Talabani received al-Lozi's accreditation papers Thursday, the president's office said. The statement by Talabani's office said the president "confirmed the need to solidify relations with Jordan in all fields."

The statement noted that both countries depend on each other for their border security. Iraq shares a small land border on its west with Jordan.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/4125886.html

-- August 18, 2006 4:24 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

"Troops Worried About Progress In Iraq
Top General Says Troops Expressed Frustration During Recent Trip To Iraq"

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/17/iraq/main1907279.shtml

----------------- Rut - ro ........

-- August 18, 2006 6:57 PM ∞

---

Robert wrote:

All,

Like a lot of folks in this venture, I have been doing a ton of searches over the past year or so trying to find a bank that I could deposit my Iraqi dinar in. I have found two,but both have drawbacks that make each bank unsuitable for me. Each time that I talked with each of these banks, I would get right near the closing deal, and there would be something that would kill the deal.

1. Bank #1 is Export and Finance Bank in Jordan. Of course, we all pretty well know about this one. They will open an account with the National Bank of Iraq, through their bank. However, they pay no interest on their account, and you would have to travel to Jordan to open an account. Soooo, that kills that deal.

2. Bank #2 is HSBC Jordan. You all may know about this one too, but I didn't. Believe it or not, they do offer you the option of opening a dollar/Iraqi dinar account through an affiliation with Dar Es Salaam Bank in Iraq. I thought that I had sealed the deal until they emailed me back, and told me that I would need $100,000 U. S. dollars to open an account.
Unfortunately, they don't accept Iraqi dinar for deposit. But, you can buy them at the current exchange rate, if you had $100,000 dollars to open an account. They said that they would keep me up-to-date when they would be offering a lower amount needed for opening a dollar/Iraqi dinar account. Below is a copy of one of the emails from their Dar Es Salaam Representative. He also told me that they are not offering ISX investment accounts at this time through Dar es Salaam bank, but he would let me know when they expect it to happen. If you would like to verify this info, just email their main email address in Jordan. You will get an automated response telling you that it will take two business days to get an answer, and they answer within the two business days. I have another email that I had saved, but it will take up too much room. Please note following email from their Dar es Salaam rep.:

Dear Mr. XXXX,

Thank you for your interest in opening an account with Dar Es Salaam Investment
Bank in Iraq.

The following are our replies regarding your enquiries listed in the appended
email:

Answer to Questions no. 1:
Referred questions from HSBC e-customer service. Can I open an Iraqi dinar account at your bank, and can I deposit 10 million Iraqi dinar in this account?

All banks in Jordan do not deal with Iraqi Dinars, but you can open an IQD
account through HSBC Jordan in Dar Es Salaam Investment Bank, Iraq by advising
us on the nearest HSBC Office and contact person for us to send him/her Dar Es
Salaam’s Account Opening Forms, where you can sign in their presence, to
proceed with opening the account. As for depositing the IQD10, 000,000, please
note that the only way is to be deposited through a person in Iraq.

Answer to Questions no. 2:
(What documents will I need to furnish to open an account at your bank?)

Please find below the requirements and documentations required opening a
Non-resident Personal account with DES Iraq:

a. Group Introduction form (If an HSBC customer) or an Introduction letter from
a reputable bank.
b. A photocopy of a valid passport.
c. Address in your home country country of residency is required.
d. Minimum Deposit required of: (USD 100,000 or equivalent in other currencies
and need to be placed on a minimum 6 months time deposit).
e. Source of funds that will be credited into account.

Answer to Question no. 3:
(How much interest is paid on account?)
Please note that if you open a personal current account, then there is No
interest on this account, while if you open a personal saving account, then the
interest will be 1.5% annually.

Answer to Question no. 4:
(Do you offer the option of investing in the ISX through an investment portfolio at Dar es Salaam?)

Please note that for the time being Dar Es Salaam does not have this service but we will be advising you accordingly when such service take place.

Thanking you in advance

Regards,

Nada Sabbagh
Dar Es Salaam Investment Bank Representative, (HSBC) Jordan

Now folks, I am not posting this info to start any fights about verification of this info. If you don't believe it, verify it yourself through HSBC Jordan.
One-hundred thousand is a lot of money to open an account, but hey, baby steps. Everything seems to be graaaaaduaaalllly coming together for bank accounts at other banks.
- Robert

-- August 18, 2006 7:13 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Putting the Iraq War on Trial
An army officer who refused duty in Iraq goes to court with a novel argument: he had a duty to disobey because the war is illegal
By ELI SANDERS/SEATTLE
Posted Friday, Aug. 18, 2006

When he refused to deploy to Iraq in June, Army Lt. Ehren Watada said he was following his conscience and upholding his duty not to obey illegal orders. But that didn't impress military officials, who promptly charged him with violating Army rules and sent him on a path toward a likely court-martial.

In a packed hearing room on this Army base south of Seattle Thursday, lawyers for Lt. Watada used the opportunity to put the war itself on trial, trying to prove he was right to see the war as "manifestly illegal," and as a result, to refuse to participate.

That, prosecutors said, is exactly what they most fear. To give credence to Lt. Watada's argument, they said, would create a breakdown in military order and discipline. "It's just dangerous in our Army to allow that to happen," said Capt. Dan Kuecker, one of the prosecutors. Whether the war is legal, he said, "is not a decision for a lieutenant to make — it's a decision for politicians and legislators." Watada's behavior, Capt. Kuecker told the hearing, "is dishonorable and it is disgraceful."

Lt. Col. Mark Keith, who presided over the proceeding, is expected to decide within the next few days whether to recommend a court-martial for Lt. Watada. If one takes place, and Watada is convicted, he could face up to seven years in prison.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1228779,00.html

-- August 18, 2006 9:59 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

To me, the idea of not obeying an order to go to war is dishonorable and impractical militarily. If they let this person win this lawsuit, every time military personnel think that they should not go on a mission because it doesn't suit their own personal opinions of how the military should be conducting a war strategy, they can opt out. What is the point of military contracts, then? They certainly are not binding. You can just say "I don't want to be in the military anymore. I disagree with the current operation" and you are out.

If they wish to cripple the miltary into not knowing what personnel it has or can count on when it goes to war, this is the way. Now instead of the Congress and President deciding to go to war, they will have to ask each servicemember if they agree or disagree with each war decision. And if they do not, they can retire from active duty or just leave? When in the history of the world has this EVER happened before? Anyone know?

Service members joined the military freely, without coersion. I think you have to leave your political opinions at the door when you sign on and support whoever is in power as they are doing the will of the majority of the American people as their elected representatives. That "chain of command" must be honored, and this man is dishonoring it by this questioning of it, right up to the level of the Commander in Chief.

I can see it all now.

The President and Congress agree that we have a crisis with North Korea, Iran, China, Russia.. take your pick. They authorize the use of military force in the best interests of the country. Then they go to each military person and give them a legal paper which reads:

"Do you agree with the new war we are about to undertake?"

1) Agree
2) Disagree - it doesn't look legal to me even though the highest political bodies who make up our laws say it is necessary - I would like to resign my service
3) Disagree - but you can reassign me to non-combat related duties related to this new action
4) Disagree - I will allow myself to be stationed at other bases or duties but nothing to do with this current war

Take your pick?

Sara.

-- August 18, 2006 10:03 PM ∞

---

Terry wrote:

Sara, as a Vet. I agree! Anyone in the military has no choice. They entered to serve, period.

Lance, I too am Agnostic. Though I took a much different path than your own, which I applaude. I have waited to say that based on all of the rethoric.

-- August 19, 2006 12:37 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Sara,

Yes Lance is my advocate, we have come to the conclusion that it doesnt matter if we have white or black wings, as long as we can fly.

In both Heaven and Hell, all aerodynamic principles apply, except that in a hot environment the atmosphere is a little bit thinner.

You just got to flap the wings a bit more....no biggie.

There must be a contract between the Heaven and Hell, after everyone dies, there must be a sort out process, and both the Heaven and Hell must have a vasted interest, in getting their souls.

The sort out station must therefore be runned by a multi spiritual neutral force.

Agreement must have been worked out by higher dignitaries from both camps, on what the scale of sin is, and how it apply in a pointsystem, how to tabulate it and how to come to the final conclusion wether the person goes up or down.

As St Pete is the only reciever at the Pearly gate, and there is a hell lot of devils down below doing the dirty job, a fair quota system must by neccesity be implemented.

Then there must by pure de facto existence of the two parties be a fair and just, appeal system.This can not be runned by neither party, this on the basis of established principles of justice.

A Heavenly and a Devils advocate must both be present and present the case for the court.

As the volume of deceased is in the thousands and thousands a day, it is inevitable that many mistakes will be made, and both Heaven and Hell needs a computerized buraucracy with a common database.

Anyone from either Heaven or Hell can work on the computers except the persond from Hell that have created more than five Viruses, or ten Cookies.

As no known third party is mentioned in the script, the possibility is very high that the sorting out station must be manned , by strickt contract, by an equal number of Angels as Devils.

Strict conduct must apply, and only in exceptional cases have a fraternisation between and Angel and Devil been approved by allowing one to convert.

Unfortunately this situation have progressed to the point where segregation is practiced.

Drinking fountains, have signs.

White only. Black only.

-- August 19, 2006 1:50 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

You've got to love this guy. Bill Gates gave a speach recently in a High School.

He talked about how feel good, politically correct teachings created a generation of kids with no concept of reality and how this concept set them up for a failure in the real world.

Rule 1. Life is not fair - Get used to it.

Rule 2. The world dont care about your self-esteem, The world expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you fell good about yourself.

Rule 3.You will NOT make $60.000 a year right out of High School. You won't be a vice-president with a car phone until you earn both.

Rule 4. If you think your teacher is tough, wait until you get a boss.

Rule 5. Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your grandparents had a different word for flipping burgers, opportunity.

Rule 6. If you mess up, it's not your parents fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.

Rule 7. Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that from paying your bills, cleaning you clothes and listening to your talk about how cool you thought you were. So before you save the rainforest from the parasites of your parents generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.

Rule 8. Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life HAS NOT. In some schools they have abolished failing grades, and they'll give you as MANY TIMES as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear any resemblence to ANYTHING in real life.

Rule 9. Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interesting in helping you FIND YOURSELF. Do that on your own time.

Rule 10. TV is not real life.In real life people actually have to leave the coffe cup and go to jobs.

Rule 11. Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.

If you can read this-thank a teacher.
If you are reading it in English- thank a soldier.

-- August 19, 2006 2:20 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Robert,

May I ask, what is the appeal of getting an account overseas in Iraq or a bordering country?

If this is with reference to investing in Dinars, I really have never seen the point in it.

I can see that you might get some interest on the money, but you forfeit the possesion of the stash, to a bank you probably never will visit in person.

If this is because of taxreasons or have the money outside of the US in case a huge profit comes along, I would have to say that there are so many different ways you can do that here, while you are still in full control over your money.

I can see some other people have posted their experience with outside banks, the deals given and what to do and not to do, but all in all, it's a bigger risk than just sitting on a bundle.

Am I missing something, please tell me the basic reasons for why I would consider taking my money and open something up in Jordan or Iraq?

Puzzled

-- August 19, 2006 2:46 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Rob N.,

Rebuttal and comments below to your posting. I have numbered them to allow comparison.

Rob N. wrote:

1. Evolution or Neo-Evolution hinges on the writings of one man, namely Charles Darwin. 2. In contrast, the Bible was written over a period of centuries and written by different authors, yet with one message. All centered on Jesus Christ.

Rebuttal: 1. Have you ever read “The Origin of Species” 1859 by Charles Darwin? Most have not. Most are just mouthing what they have heard, or the Organized Religions rebuttal to a perceived threat. Or read the works of Alfred Wallace or J.G. Gmelin? Both, either prior to Darwin or a contemporary. Darwin only published early to get ahead of Wallace. By the way, Darwin always asserted that it was a “Theory” and not a proven fact.

Rebuttal: 2. Very incorrect statement. Even the Catholic Church will tell you that the Jesus of today is not the Jesus of the past. Why are not the numerous other Gospels (Magdalene, Peter, and even Judas Iscariot, etc.) included it the Bible of today? Even the “Red Word” quotes in the Bible do not agree as to what exactly Jesus said. Granted the context is the same in most cases, but how much of that is editing by Priests/Preachers over the centuries to make them agree with each other. Sara was just mentioning the other day about a new version of the Bible that changed the wording throughout, to make it Politically Correct for today’s readers. Also you might want to check out what happened to your Bible from the consequences of the Council of Nicea, King James’ Edict, and the Bonfire of the Vanities. These are just a few examples of Christian editorialisim.

Rebuttal: 2 part 2. How many [original] editions of the New Testament are there written in Aramaic? None, even though this was the supposed language of Jesus. The first written copies of his word did not appear until 30-60+ years after his death and none survive to today. The Yonan Codex (Peshitta New Testament written in Syric) one of the 50 oldest surviving copies of the New Testament was written somewhere between 500 to 900 AD, and is it’s self believed to be a translation from Greek/Latin. A little side note about the Yonan Codex; Back after WWII it was believed to be the oldest surviving copy of the New Testament in existence, and was presented to President Eisenhower and VP Nixon. It toured around the country in a bus called the “Spirit of Galilee” and was responsible for much of the post war revivalism in the U.S.. Until the ‘70’s it was still listed in Guinness as the oldest. But what is interesting about the Codex is it’s flavor. Very different from the King James or Vulgate versions used today. Much earthier and parts of it are found no where else in current editions and vice versa sections found today are not in it. Ok, which is more correct? Your call. But the problem I see is all the translations, editors, and interpretations that have happened throughout the centuries. If we could find one, an original Greek/Latin version would be the best (the language of Luke). But even then, it had been passed down orally even before it got onto the page. A little (Latin) example of the problems that this causes; “Cum Jesus surrexit, apostoli erant laeti” translates in most cases to “When Jesus arose, the apostles were joyful”. But another interpretation would be “With Jesus resurrected, they (apostles) were led too happiness.” This is just one example that does give differing meanings although slight. It is all in how it was interpreted and translated by man.

3. Evolution has an incomplete fossil record it no way can fill in all the gaps. For example drawings of Piltdown Man and Neanderthal man are artists renditions meaning no concrete evidence exists to conclusively determine that "early man" looked like those drawings in science textbooks. 4. In contrast, Genesis (the book of beginnings) gives us a full explanation as to what early man looked like. Adam was created in the image of God. 5. The best Darwin could come up with is a monkey. Now, do you want to evolve from a monkey or made in the image of divinity. I personally will take the divine.

Rebuttal 3: Sara’s Straw Man argument applies here. Scientists and Artists try to do the best they can with what they know and “Believe” in the context of their times and with the instruments available to them. But as they both progress, these theories change to meet the new data. Sorry but science does not have the “begets’ record that the bible has to draw from. Where are the cemeteries with all these “begets” so we can verify them against the Bible? The answer is “Dust to Dust”. In sciences case it’s “Bones to Fossils” in very few cases overall. If you read any current scientific journals, you would discover that Neanderthal and Piltdown Man are not considered a part of the evolutionary chain leading to modern man, and if God did create everything, then why are these anatomically different skeletons present?

Rebuttal 4: Same oral/translation/tradition problem as Rebuttal 2 part 2 above, with an even greater time frame and more languages to contend with.

Rebuttal 5: I believe that I evolved out of the loving relationship of my parents. If evolution is true, then all of my ancestors going clear back to the monkeys would never have noticed the gradual changes that their offspring inherited. Thankfully Darwin chose monkeys and not Aardvarks’, though I have questions about some of the people I work with.

6. Now let us compare the one man of evolution, Charles Darwin with the one God/Man Jesus Christ. Charles Darwin was a racist. He believed the African American brain to me much smaller and therefore making those people less intelligent than their Caucasian counter-parts.

7. Jesus Christ ministry is egalitarian in nature. Those that accept him as the Son of God were given fellowship. Darwin's requirement for intelligence is skin color.

Rebuttal 6 & 7: In the 1800’s what we call racism today was taught and practiced by the very Christianity that you so strongly believe in. Our Founding Fathers who were almost all preachers of one sort or another considered slavery an accepted practice. You on the other hand are looking at his motives with today’s morals and Political Correctness. We have had a few changes since his day. I believe the Civil War was one of them, and didn’t I read about the Civil Rights Movement somewhere. You are damning him for being a man of his times, and judging him against today’s standards. No way do I agree with these sentiments of his in any form. A Charles Darwin quote shortly before his death; "I cannot pretend to throw the least light on such abstruse problems. The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble to us; and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic." One other quote from a letter Darwin wrote; "It does one's heart good to hear how things are going on in England. Hurrah for the honest Whigs. I trust they will soon attack that monstrous stain on our boasted liberty, Colonial Slavery. I have seen enough of Slavery & the disposition of the negros, to be thoroughly disgusted with the lies & nonsense one hears on the subject in England." - To John Herbert on 2 June, 1833 from Maldonado, Rio Plata. FYI, Charles Darwin was one of the biggest anti-slavery proponents of his day.

8. Next, When was Charles Darwin born? When did he die? Where is he now? Darwin is dead. Where is Jesus Christ? Sitting at the right hand of the father. Both internal biblical evidence and external evidence gives overwhelming proof of the resurrection of Christ from the dead. Again, where is Darwin?

Rebuttal 8: Historical facts with [original] birth and death certificates available. Born at Mount Shrewsbury, Shropshire, England on12 February 1809. Died at Down House in London on 19 April 1882. Buried in Westminster Abbey on 26 April 1882 about 20 feet away from Sir Isaac Newton. Where are Jesus’ dates? We don’t have accurate dates for him. Only your belief that he is sitting at the right hand of god in accordance with the Bible who was written by man.

9. One last point. Darwinian Evolution has "evolved" into Neo-Darwinian Evolution. (Would this be considered Macro-Evolution or Micro-Evolution?) Anytime a movement seeks to alter its message to iron out contradictions it necessitates a change. Unlike Evolution, the Christian message has remained the same since Jesus walked the earth.

10. Finally, from anyone on the board. Will you please give me a recent example (within the 100 years) of Macro-Evolution?

Rebuttal 9 & 10: You assumed that as an Agnostic (which in many minds equals Atheist) that I obviously believe in the Theory of Evolution automatically. Please read the definitions. Again you assumed!!!!

11. Lance, your comment to Sara: "Religion is all a matter of faith and belief. This is why I said that I envy you and those like you, for the comfort it gives." You do not have to envy the Christian faith and wish for its comfort. I think your wrong. Christianity/A belief in Christ is not a mere belief it is historical fact and is objective truth.

Rebuttal 11: Thanks for clearing up that point, I was obviously misinformed about the reality that I perceive. Glad you could put words in my mouth, read my mind and judge my beliefs/feelings. I feel much better now that I have been corrected.

Lance

-- August 19, 2006 4:03 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Rob N.,

Rebuttal and comments below to your posting. I have numbered them to allow comparison.

Rob N. wrote:

1. Evolution or Neo-Evolution hinges on the writings of one man, namely Charles Darwin. 2. In contrast, the Bible was written over a period of centuries and written by different authors, yet with one message. All centered on Jesus Christ.

Rebuttal: 1. Have you ever read “The Origin of Species” 1859 by Charles Darwin? Most have not. Most are just mouthing what they have heard, or the Organized Religions rebuttal to a perceived threat. Or read the works of Alfred Wallace or J.G. Gmelin? Both, either prior to Darwin or a contemporary. Darwin only published early to get ahead of Wallace. By the way, Darwin always asserted that it was a “Theory” and not a proven fact.

Rebuttal: 2. Very incorrect statement. Even the Catholic Church will tell you that the Jesus of today is not the Jesus of the past. Why are not the numerous other Gospels (Magdalene, Peter, and even Judas Iscariot, etc.) included it the Bible of today? Even the “Red Word” quotes in the Bible do not agree as to what exactly Jesus said. Granted the context is the same in most cases, but how much of that is editing by Priests/Preachers over the centuries to make them agree with each other. Sara was just mentioning the other day about a new version of the Bible that changed the wording throughout, to make it Politically Correct for today’s readers. Also you might want to check out what happened to your Bible from the consequences of the Council of Nicea, King James’ Edict, and the Bonfire of the Vanities. These are just a few examples of Christian editorialisim.

Rebuttal: 2 part 2. How many [original] editions of the New Testament are there written in Aramaic? None, even though this was the supposed language of Jesus. The first written copies of his word did not appear until 30-60+ years after his death and none survive to today. The Yonan Codex (Peshitta New Testament written in Syric) one of the 50 oldest surviving copies of the New Testament was written somewhere between 500 to 900 AD, and is it’s self believed to be a translation from Greek/Latin. A little side note about the Yonan Codex; Back after WWII it was believed to be the oldest surviving copy of the New Testament in existence, and was presented to President Eisenhower and VP Nixon. It toured around the country in a bus called the “Spirit of Galilee” and was responsible for much of the post war revivalism in the U.S.. Until the ‘70’s it was still listed in Guinness as the oldest. But what is interesting about the Codex is it’s flavor. Very different from the King James or Vulgate versions used today. Much earthier and parts of it are found no where else in current editions and vice versa sections found today are not in it. Ok, which is more correct? Your call. But the problem I see is all the translations, editors, and interpretations that have happened throughout the centuries. If we could find one, an original Greek/Latin version would be the best (the language of Luke). But even then, it had been passed down orally even before it got onto the page. A little (Latin) example of the problems that this causes; “Cum Jesus surrexit, apostoli erant laeti” translates in most cases to “When Jesus arose, the apostles were joyful”. But another interpretation would be “With Jesus resurrected, they (apostles) were led too happiness.” This is just one example that does give differing meanings although slight. It is all in how it was interpreted and translated by man.

3. Evolution has an incomplete fossil record it no way can fill in all the gaps. For example drawings of Piltdown Man and Neanderthal man are artists renditions meaning no concrete evidence exists to conclusively determine that "early man" looked like those drawings in science textbooks. 4. In contrast, Genesis (the book of beginnings) gives us a full explanation as to what early man looked like. Adam was created in the image of God. 5. The best Darwin could come up with is a monkey. Now, do you want to evolve from a monkey or made in the image of divinity. I personally will take the divine.

Rebuttal 3: Sara’s Straw Man argument applies here. Scientists and Artists try to do the best they can with what they know and “Believe” in the context of their times and with the instruments available to them. But as they both progress, these theories change to meet the new data. Sorry but science does not have the “begets’ record that the bible has to draw from. Where are the cemeteries with all these “begets” so we can verify them against the Bible? The answer is “Dust to Dust”. In sciences case it’s “Bones to Fossils” in very few cases overall. If you read any current scientific journals, you would discover that Neanderthal and Piltdown Man are not considered a part of the evolutionary chain leading to modern man, and if God did create everything, then why are these anatomically different skeletons present?

Rebuttal 4: Same oral/translation/tradition problem as Rebuttal 2 part 2 above, with an even greater time frame and more languages to contend with.

Rebuttal 5: I believe that I evolved out of the loving relationship of my parents. If evolution is true, then all of my ancestors going clear back to the monkeys would never have noticed the gradual changes that their offspring inherited. Thankfully Darwin chose monkeys and not Aardvarks’, though I have questions about some of the people I work with.

6. Now let us compare the one man of evolution, Charles Darwin with the one God/Man Jesus Christ. Charles Darwin was a racist. He believed the African American brain to me much smaller and therefore making those people less intelligent than their Caucasian counter-parts.

7. Jesus Christ ministry is egalitarian in nature. Those that accept him as the Son of God were given fellowship. Darwin's requirement for intelligence is skin color.

Rebuttal 6 & 7: In the 1800’s what we call racism today was taught and practiced by the very Christianity that you so strongly believe in. Our Founding Fathers who were almost all preachers of one sort or another considered slavery an accepted practice. You on the other hand are looking at his motives with today’s morals and Political Correctness. We have had a few changes since his day. I believe the Civil War was one of them, and didn’t I read about the Civil Rights Movement somewhere. You are damning him for being a man of his times, and judging him against today’s standards. No way do I agree with these sentiments of his in any form. A Charles Darwin quote shortly before his death; "I cannot pretend to throw the least light on such abstruse problems. The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble to us; and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic." One other quote from a letter Darwin wrote; "It does one's heart good to hear how things are going on in England. Hurrah for the honest Whigs. I trust they will soon attack that monstrous stain on our boasted liberty, Colonial Slavery. I have seen enough of Slavery & the disposition of the negros, to be thoroughly disgusted with the lies & nonsense one hears on the subject in England." - To John Herbert on 2 June, 1833 from Maldonado, Rio Plata. FYI, Charles Darwin was one of the biggest anti-slavery proponents of his day.

8. Next, When was Charles Darwin born? When did he die? Where is he now? Darwin is dead. Where is Jesus Christ? Sitting at the right hand of the father. Both internal biblical evidence and external evidence gives overwhelming proof of the resurrection of Christ from the dead. Again, where is Darwin?

Rebuttal 8: Historical facts with [original] birth and death certificates available. Born at Mount Shrewsbury, Shropshire, England on12 February 1809. Died at Down House in London on 19 April 1882. Buried in Westminster Abbey on 26 April 1882 about 20 feet away from Sir Isaac Newton. Where are Jesus’ dates? We don’t have accurate dates for him. Only your belief that he is sitting at the right hand of god in accordance with the Bible who was written by man.

9. One last point. Darwinian Evolution has "evolved" into Neo-Darwinian Evolution. (Would this be considered Macro-Evolution or Micro-Evolution?) Anytime a movement seeks to alter its message to iron out contradictions it necessitates a change. Unlike Evolution, the Christian message has remained the same since Jesus walked the earth.

10. Finally, from anyone on the board. Will you please give me a recent example (within the 100 years) of Macro-Evolution?

Rebuttal 9 & 10: You assumed that as an Agnostic (which in many minds equals Atheist) that I obviously believe in the Theory of Evolution automatically. Please read the definitions. Again you assumed!!!!

11. Lance, your comment to Sara: "Religion is all a matter of faith and belief. This is why I said that I envy you and those like you, for the comfort it gives." You do not have to envy the Christian faith and wish for its comfort. I think your wrong. Christianity/A belief in Christ is not a mere belief it is historical fact and is objective truth.

Rebuttal 11: Thanks for clearing up that point, I was obviously misinformed about the reality that I perceive. Glad you could put words in my mouth, read my mind and judge my beliefs/feelings. I feel much better now that I have been corrected.

Lance

-- August 19, 2006 4:08 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Sorry about the double post. Internet via satelite crashed while trying to post.

-- August 19, 2006 5:33 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Beelzebub AKA Roger,

Kurdistan is a semi-autonomous region and was, even under Saddam (one of your and my better efforts don’t you think, just waiting for him to arrive in “OUR” hot seat). They have the ability to create their own laws even if they do not comply with GoI laws. There is a commission set up to deal with these very issues, but in most cases they are pretty much on their own and can do what they want.

Robert & Beelzebub,

Why bank overseas? The main reason is to avoid taxes. Legal Offshore Banking is untouchable by Uncle Sam. If Roger took his 30 million dinar that theoretically RV’d at $0.50 and traded it in, in the US for the 15 mil in dollars, he would have to pay approximately 22+% in taxes, or about 3.3 million dollars. Now if he did it overseas there would be no taxes owed to Uncle Sam unless he transferred his money to a U.S. Bank. This means my Visa Card from National Bank of Kuwait, is just as good anywhere in the world, as the one I have from Podunk State Bank back home. As long as the money is in a lawful overseas account, I don’t have to pay taxes, and have 3.3 million additional dollars for my wife to spend shopping.

All,

Town square floggings, and or stocks should be brought back just for Lt Watada.

Sara,

It was sincere, and at least I did mark the landmine(s) for you. Though it might have been more fun if I hadn’t. But I believe that you would have taken the Clown Shoes off and avoided it anyway. You are a very smart lady. You could have cut down your reply to only one sentence in the whole epistle that made your point quite eloquently; “My experience concerning Christianity is not the measurement of its truth or not.” Well done. Spurgeon is one of the few writers that actually makes his points well and clearly. Don’t necessarily agree with him but he speaks with power, faith, and belief.

Lance

-- August 19, 2006 6:38 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Lance:
Your "Rebuttal Post" what kind I say...."PRICELESS" Oh! and thanks for the lesson...

Roger!...you scared the bejeeus out of me.....I have seen those signs...

-- August 19, 2006 8:18 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Thanks for the positive feedback, Terry. :)

Roger wrote:

There must be a contract between the Heaven and Hell, after everyone dies, there must be a sort out process, and both the Heaven and Hell must have a vasted interest, in getting their souls. The sort out station must therefore be runned by a multi spiritual neutral force.

Agreement must have been worked out by higher dignitaries from both camps, on what the scale of sin is, and how it apply in a pointsystem, how to tabulate it and how to come to the final conclusion wether the person goes up or down.

As St Pete is the only reciever at the Pearly gate, and there is a hell lot of devils down below doing the dirty job, a fair quota system must by neccesity be implemented.

===end of quote===

Sighh.. I still see this as point number three: Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretend that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical. You forgot the demons need pitchforks and red tights. If you meant it simply to lighten the mood and no biggie, I understand. It is a topic which makes folks hot under the collar, but better hot here than there, is my thinking. I loved that Bill Gates talk you posted, thanks. :) Oh, and HUG back from before. You said it in the heat of debate and I'm not sure you still mean it, but I return your sentiment in kind. Though I said what I did to correct, I meant no harm to you or deprecation of you personally. I like you! http://members.chello.at/thomas.jilge/Frei/I_Like_You.swf

Lance;

About your rebut to Rob N.

You said that the Bible has been changed by the Roman Catholic Church according to its agenda. This simply shows that the RC Church has gone astray in this respect, whereever and to whatever extent they have altered it. When the Bible testifies in Heb 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." And, by your statement, quote: "Even the Catholic Church will tell you that the Jesus of today is not the Jesus of the past.." then one of those conflicting sources is lying. Is it the Bible or the RC Church? (You know which side I am on.)

When you ask, "Why are not the numerous other Gospels (Magdalene, Peter, and even Judas Iscariot, etc.) included it the Bible of today?" It is because the church applied the tests given by the Apostles of asking whether a person believes that Jesus Christ is God, come in the flesh, and those who were not able to make that test were not at the council of Nicea when the believers sorted through the numerous gospels asking God to show them the works He had approved. I realize you have no way of understanding how the Holy Spirit can move upon His people and give them the assurance of what He has done, but Jesus said we are His people, the sheep of His pasture, and that He will direct us. If they EXCLUDED texts, it was led by God. Those outside of the faith can never understand the operation of His hands, but will ridicule what to them must seem to be an arbitrary choice. Disrespecting our faith and the unseen hand of God which directed and superintended the rejecting of many false gospels does not, however, change the veracity (truth) of what the Holy Spirit of God did.

When you speak about the false versions, I agree, they exist. When you say there was editing of the true texts of the Bible "by Priests/Preachers over the centuries to make them agree with each other", I must disagree. The people taking the true Bible which has been passed down and preserved by the true Christian church and then distorting it will have to answer to God for any changes they have made. But the Bible itself did not change, they just made a false version of it (like the feminizing bible I referred to earlier). Just because this feminizing bible exists does not mean that there are no true versions of the Bible, does it? The remarkable proof of the Dead Sea Scrolls show a guiding hand over the true Bible which is documentable over the past 2,000 years. If the Bible was constantly changed, like a story given by word of mouth, then you would expect the unearthed document of Isaiah from 2,000 years ago to differ vastly from the one I hold in my hand today. It is exactly the same, without alteration. It is preserved.

You speak about the Peshitta, saying, "But what is interesting about the Codex is it’s flavor. Very different from the King James or Vulgate versions used today. Much earthier and parts of it are found no where else in current editions and vice versa sections found today are not in it." What you are saying here is, this old document was one of those who didn't make the cut. It may be older but it is not a real version of the Bible, but only contains some parts of the true. When it differs from the texts the martyrs held in their bloodstained hands it is because their enemies had taken their copies from them and burned them, so those left behind had to constantly and lovingly make copies to replace those that were captured and destroyed. Hence, I may have in my hand a 200 AD true copy - faithfully passed down from the martyrs, and you may have one much older which is false. The date is not the measure of the truthfulness of it. The very fact of the much older one surviving, its being so OLD, many times shows that it sat on some dusty shelf, not in the hands of persecuted believers. If you wish to follow the faith, you have to follow the faithful. Following the dusty old lies of the heretics of the past will give you the same end they got.. oh, yeah, we aren't talking hell anymore..

When you (finally!) give an example of these horrible "changes" to the Bible by saying:

A little (Latin) example of the problems that this causes; “Cum Jesus surrexit, apostoli erant laeti” translates in most cases to ““When Jesus arose, the apostles were joyful”. But another interpretation would be “With Jesus resurrected, they (apostles) were led too happiness.” This is just one example that does give differing meanings although slight.

If this is the worst example you can bring up, then I ask why you are attacking the entire truthfulness of the Bible and the Biblical faith when the difference is whether when 'Jesus arose the apostles were joyful' or 'when Jesus resurrected, the apostles were led to happiness'? Even you admit that the change is very slight. How much deception do you think two believers holding to these differing translations would have about the event? But beyond that, this is really only a TRANSLATION difference, a difference from putting it from one language into another. It is NOT a change to the underlying words themselves. And it is why we have Greek and Hebrew Lexicons to go back to the exact words in the original languages. No one claims infallibility for the text as written in English, Spanish, Latin or French. The Bible was not written in those languages or preserved in them, but in the original languages in which they were penned. The final court of appeal as to the exact meaning of the text is the words which were written down by Moses or the Apostle Paul in the languages they wrote them, not the translation of those languages into Farsi or Iraqi by a modern person. The preserved text was in the original languages the message was written in and passed down through the bloodstained hands of martyrs.

Lastly, while I agree that Christianity is not a mere belief or blind faith in a set of ideas but is based upon historical fact and is objective truth, as Rob N said, I certainly do not say that in any way looking down on you, Lance or speaking with any air of superiority. I am simply trying to explain my beliefs in a logical way so you can judge for yourself its rationality and truth. In the areas I fail - or Rob N or any other Christian fails - I ask you to remember the point number two of a Straw Man argument is where you make one single person representative of an entire group of people, and make the fallacious assumption that to discount that one person is to discount the entire Christian faith. The Christian faith stands as truthful even if Rob N or I don't put it wisely enough to reach your expectations. We can only try to show ourselves worthy of being called by the Name.. CHRISTian (follower of Christ). In our humanity, that testimony will necessarily be tainted by our sin and blunders. I ask your forebearance and forgiveness when we fail, but please, don't stop listening to Christ whose name is truly worthy, even if our presentation is faulty.

Sara.

PS Thanks that it was a sincere inquiry, Lance.. you cannot always tell if something is said in jest or seriously with mere type (hence the reply above to Roger today). I am composing a post about the Darwinian/evolutionary arguments.. which I may post later if time permits. :)

-- August 19, 2006 9:17 AM ∞

---

Turtle wrote:

I am neither a Doctor in Science nor a Holy Roller so I don't usually join these debates. I can't quote the Bible but I know my fair share and I can still quote the price of a Sex on the Beach in Odessa, Ukraine. However, the more I learn about science the more I believe in God. By religion, I just happen to be Chrisitan but as I tend to agree and disagree with everyone I would say I am non-denominational. Here is the main lesson I learned from high school physics: matter can neither be created or destroyed only changed. If you believe this basic priciple then you have to believe in a God because you have just accepted the fact that something had to CREATE the star that exploded in the Big Bang or created the universe that "evolved" from a monkey. Of course, I'd like to know why evolution would remove the tail and ability to grip with the feet since men have never stopped turning to trees and higher ground for security. Not to mention becoming exponentially weaker than our primate cousins who can rip our arms off and beat us with them. As a boxer / martial artisit who spent 10 years of my life training in levers and learning the strengths and weaknesses of the human body I'm still amazed at how evolution works...

So, what came first? The chicken or the egg? Does it matter, science cannot explain the absolute creation of initial matter.

-- August 19, 2006 9:54 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Belsebub,

Re Kurdistan, ok, thanks, I had the idea that even though they are an autonomus region they are overall under the Iraq goverment. Like here, shere the states are themselves independednt but under the federal goverment.

Especially when it comes to their mineral laws, the state surely wants their fingers in the profit, did read about the investments in Kurdistan, and the warnings about the legality of them.

About account overseas.

In case of a windfall, I must say here, that I'm not an expert, and some more enlightened then me might want to jump in and give an up on things. I do know that there are funds and places you can put your untaxd money, and pay tax when you withdraw them. I dont know the details, but money from rolled over profits, straight earnings an, straight profits and a few other sources is appliable, so to me a profit from currency speculation seem to be just a straight profit category, and should therefore be appliable.

Also, and this is from the heart of any and all. I do drive on these roads, a bridge is expensive to build and I sure would like to finance a snipers bullet for the military snipers hunt for the next terrorist.

-- August 19, 2006 10:36 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Turtle,

Yes, matter is explainable. energy and matter is direct interchangeable.

To condense or release energy is a nuclear process, so if we then have excluded matter in favor of energy, you can always ask, who created energy?

WEll, one source is yourself, or if you want to relegate responibility to elsewhere we can always say its a God that did it.

Just got an idea, for a substitute of a nuclear powerplant, trap a couple of sorry souls, put them in a box, and wire the box, now you would have all the energy you need, and if they are getting tired, just shake the box a little bit.

-- August 19, 2006 10:45 AM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Hey Turtle... Why are there Poodles on the face of the earth. Obviously the Great Dane has the size and speed to out-do the other breeds... or does he? Maybe there's something going on that we don't see with those knit sewaters and puffy haircuts. :)

-- August 19, 2006 10:51 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Sara,

You know the warning....dont push the red button.

For you I went there and pushed it.

HUUUUUUUG.

-- August 19, 2006 10:52 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,

Wow, read it twice (well you did double post it, didn't you).

With all the enormous knowledge of things that are, it must consume a lot of time collecting all these data.

When do you work?

-- August 19, 2006 11:00 AM ∞

---

Taxmama wrote:

Lance - Legal Offshore Banking, huh?
Well, the IRS came out with a proclamation this last April that they now have operating agreements with many countries that have offshore accounts for U.S. citizens where income and deposits are reported to the IRS now.

Remember, it has always been that ALL income derived by a U.S. citizen (all worlwide income) is considered taxable in the U.S. (IRS). Doesn't matter where you earn it, doesn't matter where you live, etc., it's all taxable.

Do what you want, but you better always look over your shoulder.

Also, the IRS is setting up a special task force just for U.S. citizens you cash in Dinar. Better have your ducks in a row - when you purchased it, how much you paid for it, etc.

I figure capital gains taxes at 15% long term, 28% short term is o.k. to stay legal.

-- August 19, 2006 11:04 AM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

I knew I'd find a site that would give us all the relevant answers sooner or later...
http://www.400monkeys.com/God/

-- August 19, 2006 11:47 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Thanks, Roger. HUGGG. :)

Turtle - I liked your statement, "Does it matter - science cannot explain the absolute creation of initial matter?" I am not sure that evolution really is the crux of the matter either. Even if you prove that man did not evolve but was Created, now you have a ways to go to prove what kind of God (which one?). Discussing evolution is just part of the overall picture - one part of a whole which God uses to help convince us of His existence and bring us to faith. And by that I mean the kind of rational faith where you trust that the chair you are sitting in will hold you up - for that is 'faith', too.

Roger.. when you say, "who created energy? Well, one source is yourself.." - it is true that you are currently a source of energy. But all matter or energy was once Created, including you, no? So isn't that kind of reasoning circular without getting back to the originating source of who created you?

===

As for the evolutionary stuff, my bit on today's posts.. :)

Rob N was right in one key respect - Darwin's theory of evolution is based on Darwin, and Christianity is based on Jesus Christ. Rob's attempt to explain why Jesus should be believed over Darwin is understandable. But personal attacks on Darwin's political views such as his racist remarks don't get to the heart of the matter.. the THEORY of evolution. I try to stay away from analysis of Darwin's character and personal life, and only stick to what ideas he brought to (or popularized) in the world, since that is the point under debate (evolution).

I am not in a place to judge the personal lives of others (be it Darwin or Einstein, etc) but their teachings affect our world and I do take those up and deal with those arguments. Although to my mind the stellar character of Christ stands out as pure white against all others, including Darwin's.. I do not make that the basis of the controversy against the case for evolution. I see that as a Straw Man and beside the point. Even if I prove Darwin a rotten person and Christ a virtuous one, that says nothing about which of them was correct in their thinking. And frankly, what I am after in this debate is the truth concerning mankind's origins, not their political views. Darwin was a man of his times, and his political views about slavery are not relevant as the the truth about whether evolution is true or not - though I was glad to see he had a moral stance against it from your quote, Lance. I have never disliked Darwin as a person and find him to be an intelligent individual in the things he wrote (though I disagree with his THEORY).

When Rob N said, "He believed the African American brain to be much smaller, therefore making those people less intelligent than their Caucasian counter-parts." The argument there to me is not his deprecation of Africans as stupid but what caused him to say that the African American brain was so much smaller. I believe it is relevant at this point to bring up the Australopithecus as indicative in this debate as to whether African Americans had very small brains (and thus, intelligence).

Evolutionists say of the Australopithecus, quote: "Human ancestry - Australopithecus, though its leg and pelvis bones show it walked upright, had a bony ridge on the forearm, probably vestigial, indicative of knuckle walking (Richmond and Strait 2000)." (end of quote)

Now, ALL of the Australopithecus possessed small brains, the cranial capacity averaging 500 c.c. or less, which is in the range of a gorilla, and about one-third of that for man. These creatures thus unquestionably had the brains of apes, regardless of what else can be said about them. Both species of them had ape-like skulls and jaws, these features being particularly obvious in the case of A. Robustus. The dentition, above all, it is said, is what makes them distinctive and which has served to cause paleoanthropologists to claim a hominid status for them. The front teeth (incisors and canines) are relatively small, and the dental arcade, or curve of the jaw, is more parabolic and less U-shaped than is typical of modern apes. It is also claimed that the morphology, or shape, of the teeth is in many features more man-like than ape-like. The cheek teeth (premolars and molars), however, are massive, even in the africanus form. A. Africanus, even though only about sixty to seventy pounds, or about the size of a smallish chimpanzee, had cheek teeth larger than chimps and organgs and as large as a gorillas, some of the latter of which reach 400 pounds in size. As a consequence, the jaws are very large, particularly in A Robustus. Some fragments of the pelvies, limb and foot bones of these creatures have been recovered and, based on studies of these fragments, it has been the concensus among evolutionists that the australopithecus walked habitually upright. This was especially so after such authorities as Broom and Le Gros Clark strongly supported this conclusion. In more recent years, however, this view has been challenged by Solly Lord Zuckerman, famous British anatomist, and by Dr. Charles Oxnard, Director of Graduate Studies and Professor of Anatomy at the University of Southern California Medical School. For over fifteen years a research team headed by Lord Zuckerman studied the anatomical features of Man, monkeys, apes and the australopithecus fossils. Concerning the claim that Australopithecus should be classified as a genus of the Homiinidae (family of Man) rather than a genus of the anthropoid apes, Lord Zuckerman said: "But I myself remain totally unpersuaded. Almost always when I have tried to check the anatomical claims on which the status of Australopithecus is based, I have ended in failure." Lord Zuckerman's conclusion is that Australopithecus was an ape, in no way related to the origin of Man.

Having made the point that Darwin believed African brains to be small, recognise that believing this allowed him to believe and teach others that just such creatures as these Australopithecus with their "monkey-sized brains" were human ancestors. Evolution may have thought (and some still do) that this is an ancestor to man. The real problem as I see it is not the deprecation of the African people as having had tiny brains and therefore being stupid (racism) - but the problem to my mind is that Darwin was taking just such apes with tiny brain capacities and making them ancestral to man!

Perhaps you can argue that ONLY a racist can believe these creatures with 1/3 the brain capacity of current humans, weighing 60 pounds and having huge teeth like chimps and organgs are ancestors of men today, but I think we can stick to the scientific argument alone and leave the racism out. I find it highly unlikely that these creatures with 1/3 the brain capacity of humans and weighing 60 pounds really were in any sense of the word human. It is an animal and always was to me, and it is likely that this position (which is backed up by scientific evidence and the word of an expert - Lord Zuckerman) is also very acceptable to those who are disposed toward belief in God. However, I do not believe that our belief in God prejudices or blinds us to the evidence or our conclusions about it. I think we must still be considered as sticking with science and fact, not faith, in our rejection of the australopithecus as ancestral to man, or our belief that Darwin was wrong to take any monkeys (small capacity brained creatures in Africa) and make them our ancestors.

Sara.

-- August 19, 2006 12:02 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Taxmama,

I know investment strategies is not your proffesion, but rather taxmatter, but I assume you would have knowledge in the funds I'm talking about, the kind of funds where you can roll over profits, straight profits, or straight earnings, right into a fund without tax, and tax only on money withdrawn.

To me it would make most sens of all to be able to put one big profit into one fund.

Dpending on long or short term taxes on a million would be between 150.000 and 280.000.

Lets say after tax you're in the neighbourhood of 750.000.

To invest 750.000 or 1000 000, will in the long run make quite a difference.

1 mill will make so much more in return, than 750.000.

Also, IF you pay tax on straight gain, and after a million end up with about 750.000, then put it into a fund, and withdraw, do you still pay tax on the whole ammont or only on the interest it has earned.

To put it straight, isn't it better to just have the money in the first place, and deal with the taxes as you use them, and in the meanwhile let the money work for you?

I dont intend to duck and run from the taxes, I intend to stay legal, because as I say, I use the roads, and at least some of the kids coming out of the schools can read, so I have no problem trying to contribute.

However, I dont intend to go on a goverment bleeding heart campaign and donate more than needed, the goverment have a tendency to blow the taxmoney, and if ever posible, its better for me, and the economy as a whole if I have the money, not them.

So, what do you know about such funds. Is that what they call ROTH funds?

-- August 19, 2006 12:07 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Rob N wrote:

drawings of Piltdown Man and Neanderthal man are artists renditions meaning no concrete evidence exists to conclusively determine that "early man" looked like those drawings in science textbooks. If you read any current scientific journals, you would discover that Neanderthal and Piltdown Man are not considered a part of the evolutionary chain leading to modern man, and if God did create everything, then why are these anatomically different skeletons present?

===end of quote===

Lance's rebutt said in part:

Scientists and Artists try to do the best they can with what they know and “Believe” in the context of their times and with the instruments available to them. But as they both progress, these theories change to meet the new data.

====

Neither of you seemed to know that Piltdown Man was a complete hoax.

The Piltdown Hoax

It has been over 50 years since the discovery that one of the greatest archaeology finds of the 20th century was really one of the 20th century's greatest hoaxes. In 1912, Charles Dawson found a skull of the "missing link" that had eluded scientists for years. It was the find of a century -- proof that humans descended from apes. However, in 1953, scientists conducted several newly invented tests on the skull to determine its age. To their great surprise, the skull bone was found to be only 600 years old and the jawbone was found to be from a modern orangutan! Debates about who fabricated the find have raged for decades, but the BBC has more information about Charles Dawson, the man who was likely the Piltdown faker.

http://history1900s.about.com/b/a/065419.htm

Sara.

-- August 19, 2006 12:20 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Sara,

No the reasoning is not circular, its square , and on the corners there are some ornamental dingleballs.

I'm a bit tired of debating the same square, because you always come back to the circle.

Yours and mine main difference is you say God is a third person, I say you are the point of origin, if you can't see it that way, I dont care, and I really dont care to debate it over and over again.

You say potato I say potato, lets call the whole thing off...

Sara, do you have any other interests, have you done some reloading lately?

Any new intersting ballistic data on a 7mm rem mag?

Have you ever been to Oregon?

Religion is an interesing subject, but at some point I just get burned out on rehearsing it over and over. Sara once the positions are known, thats it.

Politics, boats, fuelmileage, weather, anything...

Sara do you know a good cure for dandruff?

-- August 19, 2006 12:21 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,

Just off the cuff, you impress me very much. Have you ever done one of those IQ tests, in school, I bet you scored very high.

Not that I really think there is a very reliable IQ test out there.

I've seen those quick tests on pop up pages, Some of the questions need local or cultural knowledge, and doesnt reflect the ability to solve a problem.

TV shows like Who Wants To Bee A Millionaire have questions that mostly require knowledge in the entertainment field.

I never seen any practical results of the statement that IQ changes, and is not a static ability, but I strongly believe that is true.

When I wake up, the hair is in all directions, and I have not been to the jar yet, I can't say that I'm a very intelligent person in that moment, so I think it's true.

In itself collection of data is not IQ either. I saw a program of two autistic twins, you could ask them about any future or past date, and without hesitation they could give what day of the week that would be.

You could ask a date 25 years ahed and ping, the answer came almost before you had finnished your sentence, but when they were asked how much change they would get back on a ten dollar bill , after a purchase of three dollars, you could get any answer, except the right one.

The only reason I'm writing this is an excuse to not work, so I got to pick myself up in the straps and roll.

-- August 19, 2006 12:35 PM ∞

---

Taxmama wrote:

Roger - Investments are my gig too. I am also a Financial Planner and have my securites and insurance licenses.

To use your example, if you cash in your $1million gain on the Dinar, you pay taxes on it the next time you file your 1040.

You can then invest it and pull out $ on a monthly(for example) basis. You would not be taxed on the principal you pull out, only on any additional earnings. Such as you could put it into a Variable Annuity, let it earn money tax free and get monthly withdrawals for your life style.

Roth funds are an IRA that you can put money into based on your earnings. You can put up to $5,000 for this year and next and then $6,000 for 2008, based on your earnings. But you cannot put money into a Roth for a married couple if your income exceeds $160,000 (for year 2005, i.e.)

They go in after tax money and they come out without taxes owing, but they have to be in the Roth IRA for 5 years before distributions can be paid out.

I would opt for the variable annuity route for earnings to grow tax free. There is no limitation on how much you can put in.

Another route to think about for insurance to cover estate taxes upon your demise is a Variable Universal Life policy. You buy the policy, it is held outside of your estate and when you are gone, your heirs use it to pay the estate taxes. The proceeds are not taxable and not in your estate. Works well for wealthy people.

-- August 19, 2006 12:47 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Taxmama,

Ok, now were onto something interesting.

So did I get it right, a Variable Annuity is a program where you can put any profit earning unlimited. They have to be taxed before they are put in though, and whatever comes out of the fund is taxfree, except additinal earning the fund gave.

Ok, A Roth is another type of 401 but with limited ammount you can put in and payout is after at least five years, so in this case a Roth would not be a good place to put things.

Ok that answers that, however, I was pretty darn sure there was a fund or similar where you can put all your profit into, UNTAXED, but when you withdraw, you pay FULL TAX instead.

If there is, do you have any investment tables that shows the monthly difference between a fund that will allowe for taxfree investment and full taxation at withdrawal, and a fund that will accept taxed money only, but taxation on withdrawal would be on interest earned only?

Lets say a working figure would be $1 mil. as the starting figure.

I'm a bit dumb when it comes to things of this sort so forgive me if the questions are a bit out of touch with your world, I just have a feeling that if (hopefully) the Dinar train comes, people in your proffesion will be my best friends.

Now Variable Annuity, is that invested about the same way as the big guys on TV wants you to invest, in their funds.

Let me simplify that question, all funds are basically the same right? in the way, that there is a company that says, -"give us the money, and we will invest it for you." Then they take my money, and basically invest it in a very sure and safe basket of shares, or other investment objects on the market. The net profit from that is then payed to me, except for the cut the investment company takes.

So even though the money works basically the same, the only difference is the set up in which you can pay in, and the way you can be payed out taxwise, right?

Am I on a pretty straight track here, or do I need a bigger dose of bugspray inhalation?

-- August 19, 2006 6:52 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Sara,

Yes the Piltdown man, it came out as a hoax. The players in it are long since dead and gone now, but yes it was very much suspected that the originator, mr Dawson was the man behind it.

One more example of someone trying to boost his own importance, and image with a falsehood.

He also "found" some more artifacts in that spot.

There was a lot of energy from scholars at the time, volontary student work during off season and other people spending a lot of time digging at the location.This went on for many seasons, and on occasion a small new artifact showed up, but later in diaries of the work history showed that they had a mysterious coincident with mr. Dawsons presence at the work site.

What a waist, what a joke, the bummer is when a person like that, knowingly lead people astray.

Some excuse have to be given though for the forensic evidence that was accepted at the time. It might have been argued that it should have been spotted as an obvious hoax earlier, but by some reasons, the papers was written on the subject, and they were used in the scientific world, but the skull itself was buried for many years in a drawer.

Once someone actually took a look at the skull with more modern eyes, many years later, it was so obvious that it was almost embarrasing that no one had figured out how blatant the hoax was.

It goes back to trust, you assume that the doctorate papers that was written about it, was written with honesty and integrity. After all, you can not haul around a skull everywhere, you look at the report.

Usually when hoaxes like the Loch Ness monster photos, or the famous big animal footprints in the sand in Florida is made, it's a practical joke, something that like many cropcircle joksters are laughing their lips off in private, but things of this sort was probably not a practical joke, most probably this mr Dawson wanted to be something he was not.

Funny how things come back, the very exact opposite of what he wanted to be, he became, we now remember him as a false player, with an ace up his sleve.

-- August 19, 2006 7:24 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Sara:
Quote:
"If they excluded the Texts they were led by "God""

How is your answer any different of Ahmed's when he told Lance in a discussion after all else failed to cover his behind that..."It was God's will"?

Is that the standard answer when all else fails......

The problem I find with mankind is after they ask the questions....

Does God Exist? What is God's Image? Where did God come from? What did God mean by Unconditional Love?

We start out a phrase such as God is(then we begin to fill in the blanks) The problem is there are many who stated they were inspired by God, the holy spirit, the yellow rabbit, a fairy, etc...to write down the interpretations of just what God wants from us if anything...

The underlying seal of authority to back up that interpretation is whatever book they want to quote by verse, scripture,edict, etc...of course ignoring that the book or material came from the same sources that wanted to convince you in the first place...... of course to block that arguement, they use the old they addage "They were inspired by the holy spirit or annointed by God, or.....when the true answer should have been "Well! I guessed they believe it...I...I..really don't think they would make it up...do ya? I have faith it is true!

Somehow they seemed to left out the word infallable...just like mankind took the words of dominion over animals to mean domination of animals...thus animal abuse is rampant....I have seen individuals have a animal on a chain, tied to a tree, no water, feed them once a week, the tree as the only shelter from the wind,rain, heat, cold....I have seen them fight dogs, chickens, dog and coon wrestle, dog and wild boar fight,throw small dogs,cats, baby rabbits,small pigs,baby goats, into a pen to teach their fighting dog how to kill quickly and give them the taste of blood....I have seen then shoot doves, deer, quails,rabbits, turtles,snakes, frogs, chipmunks, and laugh about where they hit the animal as it lay squeeling and dying...they would then walk off and leave it there....it was killed not for food but for their pleasure of knowing they could shoot straight...(I call it the small penis Syndrom" I have seen them with each others wifes (of course neither suspected their sweet little chrisitan wife was doing the same as their sweet little christian hubby)...Then next day I would see them in church sitting together, holding hands, leading a song, leading a prayer, shaking everyones hand because they were in some position, the wifes teaching Sunday School, leading Bible Studies, and some after they bonded out of jail just in time to get to church.....

That is the bad side of Law Enforcement....you get to see the inner muscle, the veins,the blood, things that most do not see...as most only allow you to see the surface skin of who they really are...most play a role....and go throughout their entire life that way...never being who they really want to be....or who they really are...

There needs to be a section in church called hypicrits sat here....you would need reservations to get in that balcony...

-- August 20, 2006 8:35 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Carl;

About the hypocrites:

Psa 12:8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

I have a question for you to ponder. If there really is a Prince of Darkness, and if there really are people who are so deceived as to follow and worship the devil (satan worshippers), what would the strategy be they would seek to bring against the Church? Surely satan's people would logically be seeking to overthrow God's? Surely the infiltration of the opposing camp in any war is a normal battle tactic? And if all it takes to become a minister of the gospel is taking courses (as you found with your Comparative Religion degree Lance) - if taking courses does not actually make a person a true Christian who knows personally the God of the Bible, would it not be easy for the enemy to create ministers and put them in key positions in the church? What if the devil sent people to churches to sow evil.... and ministers, too? Would today's church be able to spot them? I doubt these wolves would come to them dressed in long black robes with a cup of human blood in their hands.. no, they would come in sheep's clothing, as angels of light.. peaceful, "tolerant" (of evil). (Nelly's link to the article about the pedophile priest comes to mind here.)

Would the church of today spot the infiltrators? "The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted." Which vile men are exalted in the churches? The test of "every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh is of God" (my paraphrase), is the test of faith for the apostles and early church. It was their confession of Him as God and their exclusively serving Him that set them apart from those who would also say "hail" to Caesar (or Heil Hitler to Hitler - same thing). True Christians of the past have been notorious for listening only to God and His Bible, even when it meant that to continue to keep true to that confession they would be crucified, thrown to the lions or doused in flammable liquid and used as human torches to light Caesar's festivals. Today, the churches can deny Jesus' deity or what the Bible plainly states and not be removed from the pulpit. They can act as you said here - seemingly with no consequences. The BTK killer was a good churchgoing Christian, wasn't he? I agree there is corruption in the Christian church today and rank heresy, too. Even beyond the argument of personal responsibility to God (the whole Judgement Day teaching I have often spoken of before) - If it is a war between good and evil, who is winning in that war?

Setting aside hypocrites and the demonic realm and trying to deal with the true faith and believers (who do exist, believe it or not)...
in my statement: "If they excluded the Texts they were led by "God"" I also said that that statement would not be able to be understood nor endorsed by anyone outside the faith itself. The whole quote was:

If they EXCLUDED texts, it was led by God. Those outside of the faith can never understand the operation of His hands, but will ridicule what to them must seem to be an arbitrary choice. Disrespecting our faith and the unseen hand of God which directed and superintended the rejecting of many false gospels does not, however, change the veracity (truth) of what the Holy Spirit of God did.

How can you expect a person who has never had the Holy Spirit lead even ONE of their choices in life understand how God can indeed lead His own people to reject some texts? How could Pharoah understand that Moses heard from God? Remember the movie The Ten Commandments when Moses came to Pharoah he said, "Let him rant on that all men may know that he is mad." It took until the last scene until he finally admitted "His God IS God." But Pharoah had to go through plagues and war and a lot of time before he reached that conclusion. I don't think unbelievers can accept such a teaching the first time they hear it because it concerns something larger than them and which takes time to prove since it is outside their realm of understanding or experience.

However, unbelievers of Christianity cannot then legitimately turn around and accuse the church of being partial in not accepting and using the heretical texts. They do not have the right to dictate to the Church what their faith and belief should be since they are not led by the same Spirit of Jesus Christ. They cannot say we should be accepting what we have been led to believe is heretical by the Holy Spirit who works within us. As Jesus said, the Kingdom of God is WITHIN His people because He has come to us and taken up residence in our inner space (hearts), not the hearts of the unbelieving world.

Luk 17:20-21 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

This begs the question, "How does it get within you?" Jesus said:

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Jesus says here that when people repent of their sins and ask Him to be their Lord and Savior that he will COME IN TO THEM.. that is, take up residence within that person to give them guidance and direction for their lives (remember, Jesus is God and God is a spirit and can do that). That is why it says that on the Day of Pentecost that the Holy Spirit FILLED them and then they spoke with other tongues. God literally FILLED their inner selves, our inner space dimension(Kant).

From a subjective point of view - I lived many of my years without Jesus Christ. I know what it is to look up into a starry sky and see only an empty cosmos and be troubled and wonder. I have looked at the blue sky, felt the warm sun on my face and felt the green grass under my feet and felt that it was all still very empty - Like looking at a lovely painting while having a sea of desolation within your soul - so was my experience of the unsaved state. After receiving Jesus into my inner being it was like coming to know the author of the painting and understanding what He was expressing in the painting which troubled me. It overcame my inward desolation like an empty cup being filled up with water. Now when I look up into the sky I smile and instead of there being no one there and an empty cosmos, I can truly say that I experience peace and contentment along with the Presence of God Almighty. It is a feeling unlike anything I experienced before or could even grasp before, and which was beyond my ability to understand before I was given it. I cannot possibly describe such a paradigm shift in words which would let you comprehend its essence. The Bible describes it as a peace that passes all understanding which keeps our hearts and minds:

Phi 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;

Phi 4:7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

I don't know how God does it (come into our inner space and give us this peace which passes all our understanding), I only know that I thank God He can, and that He did so with me. Therefore, having experienced such an incredible inward change in my own life, I cannot see how I could have explained it to my own self BEFORE I had this inward change, so how can I expect you to understand it and believe that the Holy Spirit of God led those men to exclude or include certain texts? Could I have believed such guidance could happen before when God felt a million miles away and the cosmos was empty space and my soul was on a desolate place of existence like a wilderness? When I felt a longing for... I did not know what.. and had no faith? I do not see I could have made that step of belief myself, so how can an unbelieving world do so? It troubles me because I know you cannot do it from the place of unbelief before Christ.

UNLESS you take that step of faith and allow God into your "inner space" where you are, to fill you up and be God to you and help and direct your life, there is no possible way that you can believe it is possible for men to hear from God because I KNOW from experience God seems a million miles away and a figment of other people's imaginations, a charlatan's trick, some bill of goods some idiot is trying to sell you. It takes an act of God to change that. He knocks on the door of our inner space and wishes entry, but He never forces the door, you have to open it. Before you do, you are incapable of understanding it. I know that is true. I do not just say it, I KNOW it is true. You don't and CANNOT understand it, it is outside the realm of your existence, like trying to describe what seeing is to a blind man who has never seen. It is a dimension you do not experience AT ALL now, but which I do. And if I should deny that I know and experience God, that this spiritual dimension is now opened to me.. I would be lying, just as Jesus said:

Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, "If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God.

Joh 8:55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, 'I do not know Him,' I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.

I think you will now say that I think myself superior and enlightened, and am prideful. But that is not so. It is not because I am superior or enlightened more than you if it is something you could do too. The way is open for you to have this realm opened to you, too. All you need to do is set aside your pride and humble yourself before God and ask His forgiveness.

As a favorite song of mine says, I'm just some hungry beggar telling you where I found food.

If you want to read the lyrics, here they are. http://www.fischtank.com/ft/music/dhorse.cfm#b

Roger - sorry I pushed your "button".. HUGGGG

Sara.

-- August 20, 2006 11:05 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

"Also, IF you pay tax on straight gain, and after a million end up with about 750.000, then put it into a fund, and withdraw, do you still pay tax on the whole ammont or only on the interest it has earned."

--------- As far as I understand it, it's just on interest earned which amounts to capital gains tax. Depending on when you cash in (over or under a year) its 15% or 28%. Don't worry , there are plenty of tax shelters for the rich, and once you have your millions Roger, you too will have access to the inner circle.......

As far as foreign accounts, I plan to hedge quite a bit with foreign currency as I see the dollar heading into the shitter in the future. Probably 25-35% of my portfolio will be in either Euros or Yen.

Everyone I speak with indicates there will be an RV soon. One guy says that small bills are in very short supply. Dunno what that means exactly but my guess is that RV will be around .01- .05 cents. I'm pulling my hair out thinking about when this might occur though......

-- August 20, 2006 11:54 AM ∞

---

Robert wrote:

Roger,

Sorry about the delay in getting back with you. I have just returned from Nashville,taking my oldest child to her new home for the next four years (Vanderbilt University). It sure was rough leaving her there. Anyway, after all the driving yesterday, I was zonked out until just now.

You are correct about holding on to the stash here in the U. S. That has been my thought all along. But, personally, I have also wanted the option to open an Iraq dinar bank account at HSBC for a number of reasons.

There are four basic reasons that I would open an bank account with HSBC if I had $100,000 U. S. dollars.

1. A person would get a little interest on their money as you stated.
2. Someone would be able to buy the Iraqi dinar at the current exchange rate, at the click of a mouse. There would be no more e-bay transactions to be concerned with, or waiting for a shipment to get to you from a dealer.
3. HSBC has an excellent world-wide reputation, and it also offers online banking, with a world-wide ATM card for withdrawals, should a person need to withdraw some funds.
4. My main reason in opening an account with HSBC, would be to invest in the ISX, through HSBC if it was available.

Now, one might ask, "Why not Warka?". Well, as for me, I am not comfortable with Warka. Other people are, but not me. Lord knows that we have beat that Warka horse to death over the past year-and-a-half.

I am not trying to tell or attempt to persuade people to change their reasoning for buying into the Iraqi dinar, just trying to add a little more info to the Iraqi dinar venture path. It comes down to a personal choice. Take the path that you feel comfortable with.
Hope that helps.
-Robert

-- August 20, 2006 12:10 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Sara,

No you misuderstood me, on the "I like you" site you showed me, there was a redbutton, push it and a guy jumps out and says -"I like you"

So , for you I pushed the red button. Now it's all clear.

HUUUUUUUG.

Robert,

You are blessed with something I never got, children. My younger years, would have been more fullfilled if I would have gone that route, but now I'm over 50 and realize that if I get children now I will be in the 70's and above, before they are grown up, and I dont have a clue If I walk the earth on my legs or with a walker at that time.

I see you point on the advantages with that plan.

I just think that at the point, (if it eeeeeeeeeever comes) the Iraq currency is traded, your own local bank will do all the things you'r asking for.

Until then, the mainreason , interest on the Dinar stash, is the only thing you're missing out on.

The way I see it, right or wrong, the potential payout on the Dinar is handsome, and the difference in holding it in your own control, or giving it away, and make interst on it, is not worth it, as the potential profit, compared with the interest earned, on the principal investment would be so large that the difference woulnt be substantial.

Like selling old copper cable to the scrapyard, you have to cut it in pieces first, and you work your sweat out in the garage, with the hacksaw.

Then you spend a lot of time and effort to make a kind of mechanical contraption that will catch the copper sawdust, otherwise it would be waisted.

I personally would waist that gain in copper sawdust.

It's better to just sit on the stash, my idea of things.

Thats why I have never really been attracted to Warka, or any other option of sending the money elsewhere.

Steve,

Yes, after being in this Dinar game a while, I have been educated in ways I thought not possible, and actually I have a thought on other currencies as well.

However, if the train comes in, I would listen very very carefully on financial planners, and not go and do things that will blow it. Probably my way would be to do all the crazy things now, and hopefully if the train comes, I would switch over to super conservative mode.

Opportunities like the Dinars, are few and far inbetween, and I just think that once the opportunity have been, and made good on it, there is no time to do a second riskful game, the opportunity is gone by then.

-- August 20, 2006 2:40 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

The Dinar has improved a little bit....at Bank Of Kuwait anyway. Looks good!

1USD=1350 IQD

http://www.nbk.com/NBK/TopBar/Rates/rates.htm

-- August 20, 2006 7:03 PM ∞

---

Valerio wrote:

I have been catching up on all the postings of the past week........wow. Not much about the dinar. I can see why Lance tried to stay out of the religion debate. Lance you didn't learn much about the truth from your religion classes, and thats because they can't teach something they don't know anything about.
All these questions; How old is the earth? What does God look like? Who created God? How do we know the Bible isn't some story of mans own creation? So much confusion!
It seems most have done some reading of the Bible, including the non-believers and the agnostics. The problem is theres not much understanding, and there will not be understanding until you obtain the key to unlock it. Much of the problem is in the organizations, who mostly teach the traditions of men, with a touch of truth here and there to create the deception that they also are deceived by. They make merchandice of the people. Most of you agnostics are just good ol' boys who don't go for any of it, because it just don't make sense. It just don't all add up, and it never will if you listen to them. But it does! Everything makes perfect sense when you truely study the Fathers word. I mean really dig in. I encourage you all to dig into our Fathers letter to us for yourself to find out what the truth is. To help you get started on the right track I will point out a few things. "In the beginning" don't think of the days as our 24 hr time period, for the sun and moon were not given their place until the fourth day. Read Eze chapter 28 so you can know what the tree and the serpent was. Get the apple out of your mind, and learn what really happened when they ate the fruit of that tree. Understand that the serpent and the women had a seed that would be an ongoing war. Eve bore a son, Cain, and again she bore, Abel, they were maternal twins, but not paternal. When Seth was born Eve said God gave her a new seed because Cain killed Abel. Ever notice that Cains linage is given seperately, and that he is not listed in Adams? The entire book is about the good seed, which would produce Jesus, and the bad seed, the good fig , and the bad fig. The bad seed has always impostered itself as the good seed, and does to this day, and those who listen to them are being preped to accept Satan impostering himself as Christ. Also study the days of Noah, and how the angels came to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Satans back-up plan didn't work either. God destroyed the living because of this, but because Noah and his family remained perfect in their geneology to Adam, they were saved, along with 2 of "every flesh". My point is; before you make statements regarding God, Jesus, what you do or do not believe, read and study the word of your Father, keeping the subject being written of in context, and dig for the deeper understanding.

-- August 20, 2006 9:56 PM ∞

---

Turtle wrote:

Taylor: Poodle is a bad example since it was created by men through crossbreading. It was purposely designed to be small, mouthy, and too dumb to know it was about to be eaten by a lion. Success!!

Anyway, after all the mayhem in Zimbabwe is there anyone here who still thinks Zero Lopping was ever a good idea that would have worked in Iraq? That was just a taste of what would have happened here. I'd say we can pretty well bet that anyone in Iraqi power who even mentions the idea outloud will be shot on the spot. We should send the Zimbabwe government a thank you letter. Go Dinar!!

-- August 21, 2006 9:26 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Several points have been made in rebuttal to my posting regarding Darwin vs. Christ. Yes, I called Charles Darwin a racist. A personal attack is not want I meant. His belief that the African American brain being smaller and less developed than a caucasian does highlight his racism, but it also underscores the flaw of his theory. Thereby, causing a rational person to question his ideas.

Next, while there are textual variants in the biblical text. The fact remains there are more ancient manuscripts perserved of the bible than any other book. Though these text span time and region they do not to alter the biblical narrative.

Allow me to give one example. The King James Version (KJV)of the Bible used the Textus Receptus (Received Text) as its main source. This text includes Mark 16: 9-20. Ancient codex including Vaticanus and Sinaiticus do not have these verses. Please note, the two codex mentioned date to about the 4th century. In contrast, there are some third century witnesses who attest to the authenticity of Mark 16:9-20 namely, Tertul­lian. To resolve the issue one would weigh the validity of the two Codex in opposition to the witnesses who attest to the passage. Most Biblical scholars including Bruce Metzger and Kurt Alland tend to lean toward excluding the passage. My point, whether Mark 16:9-20 is included in the biblical text or not, the fact of the resurrection of Christ is not changed.

The canon of the New Testament was settled by the 4th century. The ommission of the gnostic gospels mentioned in a previous post are based upon established criteria. Please see the following website for more information: http://www.ntcanon.org/table.shtml. I would also recommend as this website does the following book: Metzger, Bruce M.
The Canon of the New Testament:
Its Origin, Development, and Significance.
Clarendon Press. Oxford. 1987.
ISBN: 0198269544

Next, whether Piltdown was a hoax or not really is irrelavant. The artist conception of what Piltdown man or Neandrathal man looked like is not based upon concrete physical evidence. Instead, they are based upon subjective opinion.

While I agree that the academic definition of an agnostic is different from an athiest. Practically, either you believe in God or you believe in Evolution. Frankly, in this debate a middle ground does not exist. Either you are a believer or you are an evolutionist.

Finally, I am still waiting for an objective demonstration of Macro-Evolution within the last hundred years.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 21, 2006 11:15 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Interesting words, Valerio, about Cain as the bad seed and the good seed of Abel/Seth, since the New Testament takes great pains to show the lineage of Jesus Christ stretches back to Adam from Christ. However, going from the framework of my own soul before Christ (BC), I am not sure I would have been able to receive such words, but I do think my framework or reference - which the Bible calls the "old man" - would have discounted it as religious lunacy. The Bible says that the natural man (person before accepting the supernatural realm by opening themselves to God through Jesus Christ) that natural person CANNOT accept the things of God:

1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I am not sure I could have made such a step or paradigm shift as to receive such a teaching which has at its foundation a belief there was a person Adam (and Eve), there was a Cain and Abel, the lineages in the Bible are all correct and then the spiritual understanding of the seeds. I just don't think I would have been able to give you credence or see what you said as having credibility.

That isn't to say I was closed to truth. Like Nelly B, I would have said I was open to truth, so long as it made sense. But that would have been far too great a leap for me to make in my natural state. Sadly, I would have seen what you just said as complete foolishness (note the Scripture says for they are foolishness to him.) I mean no disrespect by pointing that out, but thought that you should know that I would have had difficulty respecting your view and not discounting it as foolish gibberish - all based on some guy (Adam) that never existed. Remember that evolution deals a death blow to the idea of one man beginning the entire human race (Adam). And many on here are very definitely of that mindset, so they will discount your entire argument as being set upon a foundation they do not believe exists. For me (BC), your exhortation to read the Bible to gain truth from it would have fallen on deaf ears, as I would have thought that if you expected me to read and believe that there really was an Adam and Eve..

Setting aside the age of the earth itself (the rocks) and looking only at the history of mankind.. Perhaps if we were to point out that if mankind is even MILLIONS of years old that the population of the earth does not fit with that belief - but, if you take one man (Adam) and one woman (Eve) and give them a shortened timeframe (including plagues and wars, which can be calculated in) we get the current population of the earth - that might be helpful. Noting that if you say man is MILLIONS of years old, mankind would have overrun the earth statistically with humans by now - even figuring in the plagues and wars... And that therefore, it doesn't make logical and statistical sense that mankind is millions of years old. THAT argument might have made me go hmmmmm.. because it is looking into the science of statistics, not faith in a belief system (Adam) I had been taught to discount long ago. (Some take a small step and say Adam was the first human that evolved when they see this, thus allowing for evolution and Adam.)

But another statistic which might have made me wonder is the pointing out of the fact that the universe is expanding at a phenomenal rate and that if you make the earth BILLIONS of years old the stars would have long ago disappeared from being seen from the night sky because they would have "expanded" out beyond the visible realm. Using the cold, hard facts of how fast the universe is expanding and then plugging in the supposed Billions of years which are to have passed into that equation for myself might have made me wonder if my foundational beliefs were really and truly correct. Only then might I have begun to wonder about that old book, the Bible, and why it is the most read book of all time.. and if there might have been something to it after all when it says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.."

One more example of facts which might have made me consider concerns the belief I was taught that we were overrunning, polluting and destroying the entire earth - until I looked into the statistics of it. Did you know that if you took every man, woman and child alive today and put them shoulder to shoulder they could fit into the borders of one of the largest cities in the world? OR, if you gave every man, woman and child in the world a 1,000 square foot home and put them ALL into the state of Kentucky or Louisiana, the rest of the entire world would be unpopulated? They could all fit within that one state of the union.. all of them. Hard facts make us do some reexamination of our beliefs and those we unquestioningly believed when we were taught them. Thinking the world was overrun with humans and we needed to CONTROL that.. (population control) was a convienient belief for someone to have indoctrinated into the populace... I thought. Or, to be polite, we might say that maybe it was just a false teaching based on an innocent statistical mistake? :)

Only by sticking to the realm of fact and science - for the true size of the population of the earth, how that does not fit with millions of years of populating the earth, and how BILLIONS of years for the earth itself to be around would have made the night sky starless - and trying to fit together the puzzle for myself, might I have begun to see the holes in the system of belief I had been taught and wonder if there could be a better explanation... I just could not have made the step so quickly to Adam and Eve.

Sara.

-- August 21, 2006 1:16 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Iraq news from http://www.iraqieconomy.org

Iraqi imports from Jordan total $570 million in 2005 August 17, 2006 - A Jordanian official revealed that Iraqi imports from Jordan reached $570 million in 2005, Petra reported.
Jordan and Iraq are enjoying distinguished relations, especially in the economic fields as the trade exchange between them reached $600 million last year, the official added.
During a meeting that gathered Jordanian minister of industry and trade and Iraqi speaker of parliament, the minister called for boosting the volume of trade exchange between the two countries, particularly since Iraq is the first trade partner of Jordan.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 21, 2006 1:50 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Here is another from http://www.iraqieconomy.org

Iraq doubles funding for oil imports August 17, 2006 - Iraq has doubled the money allocated for importing oil products in August and September to tackle the country's worst fuel shortage since Saddam Hussein's 2003 ouster, a senior Iraqi official said Thursday.
Even though Iraq has the world's third-largest proven oil reserves, it is forced to depend on imports because of an acute shortage of refined products such as gasoline, kerosene and cooking gas. Sabotage of pipelines by insurgents, corruption and aging refineries have been blamed.
Falah Alamri, head of the State Oil Marketing Organization, which is responsible for Iraq's imports of oil products, said the money normally allocated by the government to buy oil products was doubled in August, to $426 million. The normally allocated amount would be doubled for September, too, Alamri told Dow Jones Newswires.
A gallon of gasoline now sells on the black market in Baghdad for about $4.92, although its official price is $0.64. Lines of cars at many Baghdad fuel stations stretch several miles, and drivers sometime wait overnight to fill their cars.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 21, 2006 1:51 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

another from http://www.iraqieconomy.org

Iraq cabinet says gets 2007 draft budget of $39bn August 17, 2006 - Iraq said a draft 2007 budget of around $39 billion had been delivered to the cabinet for review, prior to final parliamentary approval.
"The budget is about $39 billion. Today it is presented for the first time to the cabinet. It will be discussed by the economic committee and in its final shape it will be presented to the parliament, to be approved or amended," government spokesman Ali Al Dabagh said.
The 2007 draft compares with a 2006 budget of $34 billion.
The new government of Prime Minister Nuri Al Maliki has promised to strengthen the economy to ease poverty and unemployment, which officials blame for boosting the ranks of a bloody insurgency aimed at toppling the government.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 21, 2006 1:52 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

From http://www.iraqieconomy.org

IDB sign two loan agreements with Iraqi August 19, 2006 - The Islamic Development Bank (IDB) said that it has signed two agreements with Iraq, whereby the bank will provide a soft loan of $12.9 million for constructing and furnishing 15 elementary schools in the country, Arab News reported.
The bank will also give a technical assistance grant worth $390,000. The bank said that the school project will be completed within 30 months and will benefit 7,200 pupils across the country

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 21, 2006 1:53 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Challenges of Rebuilding Iraq [/b]
Amer Ziab el-Tamimi Al-Hayat 16/08/06

What made things even more complex is the failure of the political groups to draw a clear economic development strategy to make up for the devastation the country witnessed over the past 25 years. The Iraqi politicians must be aware that formulating a convincing economic philosophy is necessary to give shape to the Iraqi economy over the coming years and decades.

Therefore, it is necessary for the Iraqis to adopt the philosophy of capital economy if they want foreign capitals to flow into their country, which will help it keep up with modern civilization and enhance its international economic relations to boost its productivity and exports. Economists and businessmen in the Arab Gulf region, and especially Kuwait, hope the Iraqi parliament will pass a new investment law in line with the economic principles of globalization, which should grant them access to the different economic sectors in Iraq, including oil, utilities and infrastructure.

The latest developments in Iraq reflect a direction within the government toward openness and freeing the economy. We have noted here that the oil sector should receive the most attention because of its major importance to all other sectors. The government must boost production of its oilfields to reach its former OPEC-approved level of 3.4 billion bpd. Production should be increased, especially after the government has reached deals with international and regional oil firms to levels that suit the potentials of Iraq and the volume of its natural oil reserves.

In addition, there are many possibilities in the sector of manufacturing industries through privatizing some State-owned industrial firms in the fields of complementary and construction industries, especially the cement industry. Also, in the sector of tourism, there is the possibility of privatizing, modernizing and improving the services of State-owned hotels.

http://english.daralhayat.com/business/08-2006/Article-20060816-175604e1-c0a8-10ed-019d-d97bc9d823ac/story.html

-- August 21, 2006 2:32 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Would you Jesus freaks get back to the topic at hand! If you want your discussion to continue, I suggest you go to Jesustalk.com. This is a dinar board. Conversation about... hmmmm.. lets see... oh yeah... DINARS!! You can possibly go off on a tangent and talk about related things like Iraq and the military. Leave your God conversation to another forum. Its not that I care you talk about it, it's that have you ever seen how long it takes to load this board when the conversation consists of long unrelated topics?

Hell.. I've got a T1 connection and its taking forever to access the most current info becuase it first has to download conversations about who was cooler Darwin or Jesus.

Stay on topic or please leave. Sara, I realize you post alot of useful information here, but leave the Jesus conversation to church.

Thanks.
TAYLOR

-- August 21, 2006 3:19 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Before the big boys move in for the large construction contracts they will require an International Arbitration law in Iraq. It doesn't matter if it's part of the FIL or stand-alone. They've been burned too many times in other Middle East countries.

==========================================================================
DISPUTE SETTLEMENT

While the law of domestic arbitration is fairly well developed in Iraq, international arbitration is not well supported by Iraqi law. Iraq is a signatory to the Arab League Convention on Commercial Arbitration (1987) and the Riyadh Convention on Judicial Cooperation (1983), but it has not signed or adopted the two most important legal instruments for international commercial arbitration. These are the United Nations New York Convention on Recognition and Enforcement of Foreign Arbitral Awards (1958) (commonly called the New York Convention) and the attendant rules and procedures established by the UN Commission on International Trade Law (UNCITRAL).

Domestic arbitration is provided for in Articles 251- 276 of the Civil Procedure Code. Arbitration agreements must be in writing. Panels of arbitrators are available through the Iraqi Union of Engineers, the Iraqi Federation of industries, and through private arbitrators. Under the previous regime, Iraq established a specialized arbitration system for construction contracts modeled on the International Federation of Consulting Engineers (FIDIC: Federation Internationale des Ingenieurs-Conseils) standards and procedures, but not governed or administered by FIDIC. Sharia' based arbitration is also reportedly possible, using the Qur'an and Sunna as rules of decision. (Note: Sharia' is the code of law derived from the Qur'an and from the teachings and example of Mohammed. Sunna is the body of practices undertaken or approved by Mohammed which are considered as legally binding precedents. End note.)

http://www.state.gov/e/eb/ifd/2006/67643.htm

-- August 21, 2006 3:26 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Okie,

The Kuwait Bank are getting their cut, the value of the CBI official site is where the real value is.

The Wisconsin based bank here in the US, that was discussed in earlier postings, that is selling Dinars, also have the same spot price for the Dinar.

To me it doesnt reflect the value of the Dinar, but the value + the bank cut, of the Dinar.

It's a darn good price though I must say. Comes out as $ 740 per Mill Dinars. Thats in the level of the cheapest Dinar Dealers ( you know, those that you have to wait five weeks for them to deliver)

-- August 21, 2006 3:30 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Taylor:

I appreciate your position yet its understandable when Dinar news is slow to digress. Our discussions about varying topics are nothing but interludes. If/When there is Dinar news I assure you it will take precedent.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 21, 2006 3:57 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

TAYLOR;

What do you do when you have to stop at a traffic light?
What is it like to be in the car with you for that short space of time?
http://www.image-upload.net/files/15/traffic_jam.gif
Because loading the page takes much less time than waiting for a light to change.
Plus, if you don't like a post, you have the ability to not read it.. novel concept, isn't it?
Life really does not revolve around you, nor does this Dinar board.
As for your wanting quick Dinar service.. we aren't McDonald's, you aren't a customer and you didn't pay anything.
We have no obligation to you to do or not do anything.

Sara.

-- August 21, 2006 4:42 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Taxmama,

Got another one for you.

Ok, lets say a person have one mill Dollars, pay tax, and now have 750.000 Dollars that he put into an Annual Annuity. That would mean that he would only pay tax on the interest he takes out.

Ok, if you tax a certain ammount, put it in an Annual Annuity, and decide to withdraw the interest the fund have given. That is, any interest of the 750.000 originally invested money.

That would mean that you first tax the principal, then it stays untaxed, in the fund, but if you plan it out in such a way, that you want to leave the principal alone, and live on the interest only, that would then mean that whatever you are taking out of that fund, will have full taxation?

Is this the way it works?

-- August 21, 2006 4:49 PM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

Been away for a bit.

Annuity - put the money in, after tax, and start drawing right away (that's called an immediate annuity).
You are not taxed on the principal that you invested that comes out, you are only taxed on the "earnings" that principal earned.

-- August 21, 2006 5:44 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Here, here, Taylor.

Might I suggest other more relevant topics more closely linked to dinar speculation:

1) Updated opinions of RV ranges, dates and reasons for these conclusions.
2) Practicalities of 'cashing in' when/if a RV happens.
3) When will the International Investment Laws be Passed?
4) Re-investment strategies if there is a big windfall.
5) The continuing situation in Lebanon/Israel - will a ceasefire hold?
6) Implications of Iran defying UN over Uranium enrichment and missile testing.
7) The additioonal 3700 US troops in Baghdad - are they having the desired effect?
8) Other investment opportunities within Iraq - when, why and how much?
9) Chances of the Democrats winning the next U.S. elections?
10) Liklihood of another major international terrorist incident such as 911 or the attempted
air passenger bombings in the U.K.

When all of that is thoroughly hashed out, perhaps then we can talk about the meaning of life?

-- August 21, 2006 6:08 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

taxmamma....

Thanks for the good information on putting money in a variable annuity...I'll certainly do that with some of the cash I have.

I also have some Dinars in Warka Bank drawing 6% interest. My plans are to leave it in the Bank even after a possible RV and just take out the interest and pay tax on it.
My question is...will I ever owe any tax on the principle as long as I leave it in the account?
Thanks....

variable annuity

-- August 21, 2006 7:10 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Dinars are the meaning of life....................... aren't they?

-- August 21, 2006 7:36 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Taxmama,

No I dont think you understood my question.

If I put in a certin taxed ammount in one of those Annual funds.

Lets say you plan to live on interest only, out of a fund.

If interest only is taxed.

Wouldnt that mean that 100% of what I take out from the earnings of that fund be taxable.

I dont touch the principal, once taxed baseinvestment,but anything that grows out of it, would be fair game for my greedy finghers?

So we would look at this scenario.
1. Pay tax on profit from the Dinar.
2. Put it in the fund.
3. Take out only what the fund produces in interest.
4. Pay full tax on whatever that might be.

Is that what we're looking at?

-- August 21, 2006 7:41 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Roger wrote:

"So we would look at this scenario.
1. Pay tax on profit from the Dinar.
2. Put it in the fund.
3. Take out only what the fund produces in interest.
4. Pay full tax on whatever that might be.

Is that what we're looking at?"

-------------------------------------- This is my plan as well. As far as I know, that is how it works. I'll reinvest 3-4% of my capital gains to stay ahead of inflation and live off of the rest.

-- August 21, 2006 7:52 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,
Absolutely.

-- August 21, 2006 7:53 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Oh and I don't think that would be an income tax either, it's capital gains so if you're on a longer cycle (13+ months) I think you will pay long term capital gains. Dunno for sure......

-- August 21, 2006 7:54 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

I can tell you and me are true Dinaroholics, we're talking like we already have the millions.

Still, things might go wrong. Iran decides to send a missile somewhere and WHOMP suddenly radiation protection suits is mandatory while working on the oil fields.

When the wind is blowing from the area thast once used to be Iran, the oil workers are required to sit in their underground shelters.

The Arabworld will because of radiation mutation grow to a super race, it will grow in intelligence so fast that it will use the rest of the population of this earth as feed stock, and we all are destined to be salami.

-- August 21, 2006 8:01 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

Na, that doesnt make sense, Taxmama would straighten this up, but you probably pay full tax, as the investment itself might be long and short term, but once you've got that chunk, you look at how long time you have invested, and then decide if it is a short or long term.

Once you put it in a fund, you will produce interest in present time, and I have a hard time seing that those earned money would be applicable for a long term taxation.

-- August 21, 2006 8:09 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Other things that could go wrong,
That famous Iman that is suppose to turn up might turn up, but he might be a devote Democrat, and a Hindu.

Now India would lay claim to his holiness, and Hillary would have to go to Iran, to update him on the latest Democratic party tactics,refusing to wear a bag over her head, and subsequently being refused entry.

Hillary would get all the western powers sympathies, and win the election, and then declare the Iman being a true American.

India would not go for that , and starts sending troops to the area.

Iran would have no other choice than keeping the Iman as hostage, and thus developing a new crisis where all our computer support groups in India, is shut down.

The millions upon millions of Indians telling us how to unlock our locked up computers, now will be without jobs, and start a wave of illegal immigration to the US where it will dwarf the Mexican influx.

The Illegal Mexicans, will start demostrating against the Illegal Indians, claiming they are robbing them from their culture, and there are no more work in carwashes, as indians rules the street.

Just think of where this might go.

This is a terrible mix and a crash of the four biggest religions, Christianity, Islam, Hindu, and Democrats.

The war is not against Iraq, that is holding the Iman hostage, but between the parties claiming him as theirs.

When the dust settles, it might very well turn up that it was a false Iman, that just wanted attention, and a free trip back to his homeland Iran from Thailand where he had just contemplating doing a sexchange operation.

-- August 21, 2006 8:36 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Nelly B,

Good points.

Updated reasons for RV, ranges and reasons for that conclution.

As I see it, it's one of the main complaints on this site, the news of substantial importance is far and few inbetween. It's a mosaik of bits and pieces that have to be puzzled together, and that as a hole will give each a picture of how the scene is looking. The problem is, some have more some have less, of info, and some have what others dont have, so this seem to be something that is evolving from a more scattered picture rather from concrete data given.

It would be so easy if we would have the schedule in the hand, but we dont.

Also daily events are reported in detail, but lets face it, a bank meeting, and what was discussed, is hardly MSM substance.

They want blood.

My take is an RV and I say sooner than later, but what that means is subject to controversy, or I rather say, the clock in Baghdad is probably by some Relativistic reason going slower there than here.

I really have no hard evidence, other than my own reasoning to believe that it will RV in the vicinity of 1-15 cents.

Practicalities of cashing in if and when an RV happens.

That is, if you want to cash in in the first place.

If an RV happens and it's within 1-15 cents, I'm sure some will cash in part of the stash but will let the majority of the investment stay in hope of further improvement in the rate.

Also it's depending on if the Dinar will be on the open market. Something that doesnt seem likely right now.My own opinion is that it's high time to let it show it's real value, but I assume they are very protective about the currency right now, and want to stay in strict control over it for still some time.

There are companies here in the US that is set up for buying back Dinars.Just a question of how long they stay in business if they cant bear an overwhelming buyback.

I do believe, that there are a lot of people that are so burned out waiting, so tired of following this, and their lifes have taken them to a point where they will cash in at the drop of a hat.

I will not cover all the points you posted but would like to reply to one in special.

I heard on the news about the troop offesive in Baghdad, and per the plan, its suppose to be concentrated in area after area.

Take the hood back, so to say.

From what I heard, it's working somewhat, complete success I dont know, but a sure sign is that shops are opening up in the affected areas again. Life seems to go back to normal, I'm sure they have an eye in the neck when they walk the streets, but it is returning, according to reports.

Gotta roll....

-- August 21, 2006 9:13 PM ∞

---

Robert wrote:

Hey Roger,

I cracked up when I read part of your post about those future-mutant Arabs that make feed stock from the rest of the world's human population. I read a sci-fi book in my younger years that fits into your scenario. That sounds something like the "Soylent Green"-type society. LOL
Has the Soylent Corporation started trading yet?
No more green, manufactured food for me!!! LOL I'm buying some good farmland. LOL

Man, you sure are correct about some people getting tired of waiting for a reval. You can count me in as one of those who have tired in waiting for a reval. And, there are a whole bunch of people who have waited a lot longer than me. But, i'm still hangin' in, if only by a
VERY fine thread.

-- August 21, 2006 10:29 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Roger wrote:

"Na, that doesnt make sense, Taxmama would straighten this up, but you probably pay full tax, as the investment itself might be long and short term, but once you've got that chunk, you look at how long time you have invested, and then decide if it is a short or long term.

Once you put it in a fund, you will produce interest in present time, and I have a hard time seing that those earned money would be applicable for a long term taxation."

--------------------------------- I'm saying that any interest earned is not considered income tax, it's capital gains tax. Depending on how long you leave the money in the account before withdrawing should determine wethere its long term capital gains or short term capital gains. i.e if you withdraw a chunk every 13 months, it would be subject to long term tax, which is currently 15% I believe. Obviously if you are not smart with the money and withdraw every month, then yeah, you are subjecting yourself to short term capital gains of 28%. Best to withdraw a chunk every 13 months or so (or whenever the long term tax kicks in) and toss half into an annuity and keep the other half liquid just in case the #$&*$ hits the fan.

-- August 22, 2006 1:00 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

Well, sems you know better than me, putting it that way makes sense.

We just gotta get the millions first, then we can worry about all this.

Robert,

"Soylent Green" no never heard about that one.

I like Science Fiction on the basis that it poses impossible ideas as a possibility, and acceptance of those impossible ideas.

Jules Werne wrote about moon travel, submarines, and airplanes in the 1800's, making it an acceptable idea, and, soon enough we've got all that stuff.

It'squite fun watching the impact of Star Trek and similar Sci Fi on TV.

It's now so real, for so many people , the concept of warpdrive, fazerguns, transporters and all those gadgets they have in those shows, that it's almost unbelievable that they actually don't have them in the real world.

It's almost funny to explain to a kid that we're at the stage where we almost can't get off the ground, and hardly get into orbit, using flames, smoke and noise to get there.

Science Fiction have done an almost too good of a job.

For waiting, no I'm not at a desperate soon to bail out type of stage, I can hold on pretty good, I'm doing decently in life and will survive pretty good, but I must admit that the subject of Iraq Dinars is in the flow of news, a very very marginal source of news, and the really good and exciting news, or info on this subject is slow in coming.

You want to do some research but after a while when you read and dismissed all those four years old websites, it's really nothing more to do other than bitch on Sara for her religious enthusiasm.

If you been in it for a while, and run into the ninth website that are explaining for you how the Dinar looks like, who is issuing it, when it was reissued, where it was printed and so on, you realize after a while that there is really not a very big body of important and relevant data.

Boooooooooooooring.

Waiiiiiiiiiiting.

tick tock tick tock.

Is it possible for hippos to get the concept of wednesday?

-- August 22, 2006 2:53 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I think this proves once again that our President is correct with his plan to spread freedom wherever we go. When I'm in a foreign country and asked where I'm from, I always reply "I'm from the Land of the free and home of the brave" and they know for sure I'm speaking of the USA. Freedom is our greatest asset...make sure you always defend it. The Iraqi people want freedom and they will get it one way or the other.

==========================================================================

The percentage of Iraqis who said they would not want to have Americans as neighbors rose from 87 percent in 2004 to 90 percent in 2006. When asked what they thought were the three main reasons why the United States invaded Iraq, 76 percent gave "to control Iraqi oil" as their first choice.

But at the same time, significantly more Iraqis support democratic values, including the separation of religion and politics.

In 2004, 27 percent of the 2,325 Iraqi adults surveyed strongly agreed that Iraq would be a better place if religion and politics were separated. In 2006, 41 percent of 2,701 adults surveyed strongly agreed.

"The findings of this second survey show that even though Iraqis have a more negative attitude to foreigners, especially Americans, they are moving closer to American values and are developing a much stronger sense of national identity," said Mansoor Moaddel, a sociologist at Eastern Michigan University and at the ISR.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php?refid=DH-S-22-08-2006&article=10037

-- August 22, 2006 8:35 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Let me think now...if they want all of this to happen then....yep, they should have started breaking ground for construction about day before yesterday.
I think it's time for the Iraqi Government to "put up or shut up".

===========================================================================

Energy - Oil & Gas

Iraq plans more refineries

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

21 August 2006 (AME Info FZ LLC)
Iraq outlined plans to build several new oil refineries and upgrade existing ones to start exporting petrol and other byproducts by 2010, AFP reported. The largest, with a capacity to produce 140,000 bpd of product, will be built in central Iraq and be ready by 2009 or 2010, said oil minister Hussain Al Shahristani. He also predicted the country would increase crude production from around 2m bpd to pre-war levels of 3m bpd by the end of the year.

-- August 22, 2006 8:58 AM ∞

---

C1Jim wrote:

I wish this whole thing would happen already. I am willing to settle. I don't have to have Millions. Just enough to pay off the house!

-- August 22, 2006 9:36 AM ∞

---

carl wrote:

SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT..
Thought is the mode of motion just as light or electricity....

The Law of Attraction brings to us not the things we would like or even the things we wish for...but the things that are created by our own thoughts....it does not matter if it is done consciously or unconsciously YOU are still creating your reality...
If you were building your home, you would pay very close attention to the details, and materials used in the house plan...

BUT most individuals..as they build their life never even open up to the first page of their life building plan....most do not have plan at all...

Ask yourself this...
Are you following your life building plans to today?

Are paying close attention to what material you will be using today to create your world?
For what you create today you will experience....

The best to all today

-- August 22, 2006 9:52 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

This is short but oh so true!

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,

Jesus Christ and the American G. I.

One died for your soul; the other for your freedom.

Neither asked for anything in return.

You might want to pass this on … as many seem to have FORGOTTEN both of them!

-- August 22, 2006 10:11 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

At the risk of being too repetitive, any return on our Dinar investment will probably not be seen in 2006. The issues Iraq still faces are quite substantial.

Once the insurgency is subdued and reconstruction of a infrastructure. Iraq will be in a better position to consider a re-evaluation of their currency. Also consider the necessity of the country to begin producing an amount of oil per day equal to Saudi Arabia, to be a good indication of the RV we are all looking for.

In my estimation, we are looking at 2008 before any RV will be considered. Please note, I reserve the right to be wrong.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 22, 2006 12:03 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Taylor and company.. this is a reply to Rob N's post which you are now warned is religious in content. I apologise for the extra two seconds it took to download the page but I had to endure talk of blow up dolls and recent talk about "future-mutant Arabs that make feed stock from the rest of the world's human population", too.
Sara.

Rob N;

You brought up the variant readings of the Bible and I have decided to take a shot at explaining what I do and why. I gave you the main argument already when I pointed out that the Bible is the book the martyrs believed, held onto and copied - their often being captured and burned and persecuted for their faith (along with the manuscripts they held in their hands which needed more copies made to make up for the loss, thus, more recent dates). If today they trumpet a NEW (older) and never before seen version of the Bible which does not agree with the ones the persecuted church has held in its hands (the Received Text.. the text Received by the Church through the centuries).. if it sat on some dusty old shelf for hundreds or thousands of years and is only now brought to light by people who don't care one bit about it (except to discredit the one now in use), that is not the RECEIVED TEXT of the Church but some heretical text. You refer to two such manuscripts when you speak of an entire verse being left out. A summary:

The story of the finding of the Sinaitic Manuscript by Tischendorf in a monastery at the foot of Mt. Sinai illustrates the history of some of these later manuscripts. Tischendorf was visiting this monastery in 1844 to look for these documents. He discovered in a basket, over forty pages of a Greek manuscript of the Bible. He was told that two other basket loads had been used for kindling. (See how much reverence these words of God were given by those who held them here. These were the people carefully protecting and safeguarding a treasure? - "Tischendorf was told by a librarian that "they were rubbish which was to be destroyed by burning it in the ovens of the monastery". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus ) Later, in 1859, he again visited this monastery to search for other manuscripts. He was about to give up in dispair and depart when he was told of a bundle of additional leaves of a Greek manuscript. When he examined the contents of this bundle, he saw them to be a reproduction of part of the Bible in Greek. The find was similar to the Vaticanus, that is, the Sinaitic Manuscript is a brother of the Vanticanus (which was found unused in a vault somewhere beneath the Vatican in Rome and is likely Egyptian in origin this page says -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus ). Practically all of the problems of any serious nature which are presented by the Sinaitic, are problems of the Vaticanus. The translators of the Received Text into English knew these variant readings from the Received text which are found in Aleph, A, B, C, D (Sinaitic and Vaticanus included), and where they differed from the Received Text they denounced them.

"At the Reformation, the Greek Text, as it then stood, was taken as a standard, in conformity to which the versions of the Reformers were generally made; whilst the Latin Vulgate was deprecated, or dispised, as a mere version." In other words, the readings of these much boasted manuscripts, recently made available, are those of the Vulgate. The Reformers knew of these readings and rejected them, as well as the Vulgate.

You might note that the Reformers were also (suprisingly?) subject to persecution. People such as John Hus - 1369?–1415 of whom the Columbia online encyclopedia says: "He denied the infallibility of an immoral pope, asserted the ultimate authority of Scripture over the church, and accorded the state the right and duty to supervise the church. Because of these ideas he is generally considered a forerunner of the Protestant Reformation. At the invitation of Holy Roman Emperor Sigismund, who granted him a safe-conduct, Huss presented himself in 1414 at the Council of Constance to justify his views. The council refused to recognize his safe-conduct, and Huss was imprisoned and tried as a heretic. His friend Jerome of Prague was also seized and put on trial. Huss denied some of the beliefs attributed to him; others he refused to modify unless convinced of their error. The council condemned his writings and sentenced him to be burned at the stake, where he died heroically. By his death he became a national hero. He was declared a martyr by the Univ. of Prague, and the modern Czech Protestant church claims to continue his tradition." http://www.bartleby.com/65/hu/Huss-Joh.html

Also note the burning at the stake of great Bible scholars such as, William Tyndale: "William Tyndale (sometimes spelled Tindale) (circa 1494 - October 6, 1536) was a 16th century religious reformer and scholar who translated the Bible into the Early Modern English of his day. Although numerous partial and complete English translations had been made from the 7th century onward, Tyndale's was the first to take advantage of the new medium of print, which allowed for its wide distribution. In 1535 Tyndale was tried for heresy and treason and then strangled and burnt at the stake." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyndale

John Rogers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rogers_(religious) His contributions to the publishing of the true text were as follows, "After Tyndale's death, Rogers pushed on with his predecessor's English version of the Old Testament, which he used as far as 2 Chronicles, employing Myles Coverdale's translation (1535) for the remainder and for the Apocrypha. Tyndale's New Testament had been published in 1526. The complete Bible was put out under the pseudonym of Thomas Matthew in 1537; it was printed in Paris and Antwerp by Adriana's uncle, Sir Jacobus van Meteren. Richard Grafton published the sheets and got leave to sell the edition (1500 copies) in England. The pseudonym "Matthew" is associated with Rogers, but it seems more probable that Matthew stands for Tyndale's own name, which, back then, was dangerous to employ. Rogers had little to do with the translation; his own share in that work was probably confined to translating the prayer of Manasses (inserted here for the first time in a printed English Bible), the general task of editing the materials at his disposal, and preparing the marginal notes collected from various sources. These are often cited as the first original English language commentary on the Bible. Rogers also contributed the Song of Manasses in the Apocrypha, which he found in a French Bible printed in 1535. His work was largely used by those who prepared the Great Bible (1539-40), and from this came the Bishops' Bible (1568) and the King James Version."

This great Biblical scholar also gave a good confession to the end, quote from the above page :

After Mr. Rogers had been long and straitly imprisoned, and lodged in Newgate among thieves, often examined, and very uncharitably entreated, and at length unjustly and most cruelly condemned by Stephen Gardiner, bishop of Winchester, the fourth day of February, in the year of our Lord 1555, being Monday in the morning, he was suddenly warned by the keeper of Newgate's wife, to prepare himself for the fire; who, being then sound asleep, could scarce be awaked. At length being raised and awaked, and bid to make haste, then said he, "If it be so, I need not tie my points." And so was had down, first to bishop Bonner to be degraded: which being done, he craved of Bonner but one petition; and Bonner asked what that should be. Mr. Rogers replied that he might speak a few words with his wife before his burning, but that could not be obtained of him.

When the time came that he should be brought out of Newgate to Smithfield, the place of his execution, Mr. Woodroofe, one of the sheriffs, first came to Mr. Rogers, and asked him if he would revoke his abominable doctrine, and the evil opinion of the Sacrament of the altar. Mr. Rogers answered, "That which I have preached I will seal with my blood." Then Mr. Woodroofe said, "Thou art an heretic." "That shall be known," quoth Mr. Rogers, "at the Day of Judgment." "Well," said Mr. Woodroofe, "I will never pray for thee." "But I will pray for you," said Mr. Rogers; and so was brought the same day, the fourth of February, by the sheriffs, towards Smithfield, saying the Psalm Miserere by the way, all the people wonderfully rejoicing at his constancy; with great praises and thanks to God for the same. And there in the presence of Mr. Rochester, comptroller of the queen's household, Sir Richard Southwell, both the sheriffs, and a great number of people, he was burnt to ashes, washing his hands in the flame as he was burning. A little before his burning, his pardon was brought, if he would have recanted; but he utterly refused it. He was the first martyr of all the blessed company that suffered in Queen Mary's time that gave the first adventure upon the fire. His wife and children, being eleven in number, ten able to go, and one sucking at her breast, met him by the way, as he went towards Smithfield. This sorrowful sight of his own flesh and blood could nothing move him, but that he constantly and cheerfully took his death with wonderful patience, in the defence and quarrel of the Gospel of Christ."

I therefore submit to you that if the Bible text is important to you, you figure out which one is the right one and stick to it. Personally, I take the one the Christian Church has died protecting to one gathering dust in a vault or stuck in a trash heap to be burned as rubbish.

Sara.

-- August 22, 2006 12:24 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Rob N wrote:

"In my estimation, we are looking at 2008 before any RV will be considered. Please note, I reserve the right to be wrong"

------------------------- At the end of this year, Iraq will have to start shelling out thier own coins for reconstruction projects. They will probably want to do this on stronger footing (i.e after a revalue). Not only will this help the relative cost of projects in the country, it will buy them time to get thier #$*@! together on the oil front. My take is that an RV will enhance investor confidence that things are still moving in the correct direction despite the unrest.

IMO the worst thing they could do at this point is to continue to stand pat. A bold move is needed to kickstart the motor so that the common Iraqi folk have the basic tools to live a decent life. They have been extremely meticulous thus far but I think its time to depart from the norm of the last few years. I hope the Iraqi government sees this too...... It will begin with an RV methinks.

-- August 22, 2006 2:08 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Sara you are a nuisance. Just to think.. I actually felt bad for you when ministryoflies belittled you. Who are you to take up someone else's time with absolut bullshi*? Obviously you haven't used the internet for very long. On a discussion board with a designated topic at hand, you stick to the topic. If you have a different topic to bore the crap out people with; you start your own link.

You are right when you say that I can ignore postings or not show up here at all, however, why should I leave when you are the one who is abusing this forum.

If news is slow for a week on dinars, I have an idea; shut your fuc*ing pie hole. Don't make up things to just hear yourself type. Go out and investigate and bring in some useful information.

TAYLOR

-- August 22, 2006 2:17 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Steve:

The other things to consider before the RV are the following:

1. The final stage of debt reduction, involving 20 % debt reduction by 2008.

2. A stable economy. The lack of economic growth from the oil sector and the failure to stabilize price control both have contributed to the inflation the country is experiencing. Personally, I do not see the RV kick starting an economy that is non-existent.

3. The continued inaction of the government (save for increases in interest rate) seems to solidify their current course. In my view, the government will continue with the status quo though reconstruction dollars end.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 22, 2006 2:30 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Taylor:

Why the curse words? I do not mind you speaking your opinion on Dinars, postings, and etc.., but are the curse words necessary?

Curse words in this forum is not necessary and it tends to belittle the person they are directed to. No one is asking you to leave. I think we need to use some level of decorum when posting though.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 22, 2006 2:35 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

"Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me."

-- August 22, 2006 3:08 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

And if we are counting DINAR contributions to this board, I think my record of contributions to the board stands far above yours, Taylor.

Sara.

-- August 22, 2006 3:29 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Which useless psalm of the book of Judas did you pull that out of? Or was it your as*. Go away until you have something of some importance to post.

-- August 22, 2006 3:33 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Rob N:

"The other things to consider before the RV are the following:

1. The final stage of debt reduction, involving 20 % debt reduction by 2008."

--------------------- The previous two stages involved similar reductions if I recall correctly. This last third will not factor into the equation as much as you think. The Paris club has already forgiven most of the debt that really matters. The fact that Iraq has met every criteria set forth by the IMF thus far leads me to believe that an RV in the near future is just as viable an option as doing on e in 2008. The question becomes then: Why wait?

Rob N wrote:

"2. A stable economy. The lack of economic growth from the oil sector and the failure to stabilize price control both have contributed to the inflation the country is experiencing. Personally, I do not see the RV kick starting an economy that is non-existent."

--------------------- Great point here Rob. If there is a sticking point it's this. But again I must yield to cautious optimisim when I make an assessment on this. You see, as long as junior and the gang are in office, boots will continue to be on the ground. That means decent security at least in the short term. Make no mistake about it, this is THE key problem with the economy as I see it. Keep in mind the underlying mission of your government...... Where the government has put its money, you should also...... the oil will start flowing soon rest assured. Just in time for the end of international aid. But yes Rob, I do agree this is a huge X-factor.

Rob N wrote:

"3. The continued inaction of the government (save for increases in interest rate) seems to solidify their current course. In my view, the government will continue with the status quo though reconstruction dollars end."

--------------------- Yes, I offered a proviso to my statement: That the Iraqi government break with its continued inaction and do something bold. I think junior and the gang are at wits end on this matter and will start gentle pressure on the central government to move a bit faster on matters concerning the economy (oil in particular). Your assessment could be right on the money though Rob. I can see them sitting on thier hands until the foreign money is used up, but thats at the beginning of 07. Hopefully they will wake up, or junior will begin to apply some much needed pressure.

-- August 22, 2006 3:38 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

-- August 22, 2006 3:51 PM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

Roger - an update.
I believe you or someone else asked how long you could leave money into an annuity before having to take it out.

Generally speaking, you can leave it in there till age 95, but even that can be post-poned. So, the answer is a VERY long time.

Regarding questions on taking out withdrawals and taxable events.

If you put a lump into a variable annuity and take monthly withdrawals - the principal that you invested is what comes out first. And, as that already has tax paid on it, it will not be taxable to you.

Now, when you get to the point where you are taking more than your invested principal out, then you are taking out the "earnings". The earnings when would be taxable to you. Most would probably be long term gains but there could be a bit of short term gains (i.e. 15% short/28% long).

One way to look at it would be: put $1.2 million into a Variable Annuity Contract, you could receive $60,000 per year for life.

-- August 22, 2006 4:11 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Taxmama wrote:

"Now, when you get to the point where you are taking more than your invested principal out, then you are taking out the "earnings". The earnings when would be taxable to you. Most would probably be long term gains but there could be a bit of short term gains (i.e. 15% short/28% long)."

----------------------- Isn't it 28% short, 15% long? Annuities are too rigid IMO. No flexibility in your portfolio with whatever chunk you decide to throw in. Who is interested in earning 60k a year for life? Talk to me in 15-20 years when that 60k is looking more like 30k. Yes volatility is nil, but so is liquidity. I'd rather invest the entire principal in a modest fund (something along the lines of S&P 500 style), and divide the interest earned as follows: 1)reinvest 3-4% of the original principal to stay ahead of inflation yearly and 2) spend the rest......

But I am fairly agressive when it comes to finances.......who knows what happens if the Dinar train comes in?

-- August 22, 2006 4:30 PM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

Yes, you are correct, I did have the long and short reversed.
Short 28%, Long 15%.

I am only answering one person's questions. Not every product is right for every person.

I do have a client who is interested in $60k for life so as I said, everybody is different.

I am most likely not going to handle most of our portfolio. I've been talking to Private Bankers at Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, HSBC etc to find out what services they offer. We have too many travel plans, house plans, etc that would take our time.

-- August 22, 2006 4:52 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Don't worry Taxmama, I understand that you were answering Rogers question. I was just explaining my thinking on the subject. I have a tendency to be really agressive investment strategies. Hopefully I can go hide all of my money under the mattres when that train comes in.....

-- August 22, 2006 5:00 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

You know, you come to know the people on these forums, some more so than others. One person during this Dinar trek whom I grew to know and was quite close to used the name Nebuchadnezzar as his username. We chatted quite a bit, even emailed.. discussed theology. For those of you who knew the man and cared, my condolences to you as well as to his family. He was a good help to us all along this Dinar journey and he will be greatly missed. He was a wonderful, kind, loving, thoughtful, helpful, intelligent.. and just plain fun person. He had true depth of soul. He was only a young man, 31, yet he was a great man and to me he is INDEED greatly missed.

Sincerely,
Sara.

-- August 22, 2006 5:10 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Sara:

To Taylor's dismay I am going to respond to your previous post regarding Textual Criticism. This may throw Taylor into a hyperactive tizzy. Let us see what other vulgar words that can proceed from his mouth.

Concerning text criticism I would submit your analysis reflects someone who tends to lean only toward the King James Verison as the only acceptable translation of scripture. Are you KJV only, Sara?

The Received Text of the Bible which the KJV is based upon is valuable to every believer. To its credit its manuscript count out numbers the critical text significantly.

The critical text by definition includes Codex Vaticanus and Sinaiticus (4th century)these predate the earliest manuscripts of the Textus Receptus.

Proper text criticism should not rely upon one version of the Bible or one set of manuscripts. Instead, The Church Fathers, ancient versions (these two predate Textus Receptus), and these codex you classify as trash should all be weighed. In my view, older equals closer to the original Greek manuscripts therefore carry more weight than the received text.

If you are interested, I can recommend some reading in this area to give you a fuller understanding of Text Criticism.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 22, 2006 5:18 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Rob N;

No, I am not KJV only (that is only a version, not an original codex), but I do believe in the Received Text for the reasons before stated. If it was held by the persecuted church and carefully copied and passed on through the centuries, I consider that to be the true version (since the Bible says God's word is kept to each generation forever - Ps 12: 6-7). It is the manuscripts which were not kept to each generation but found on a dusty shelf and not in the hands of believers who revered and gave their lives protecting it that I take issue with. I have read and am familiar with textual criticism, as I think my posts make clear. I disagree with your viewpoint that, "older equals closer to the original Greek manuscripts therefore carry more weight than the received text." Rather than taking the learning of the higher critics on the TEXT (textual criticism) as my creed, I take the believing CHURCH as the indication of the true manuscript.

To reiterate: If you found it in the trash bin and rescued it just before it got tossed in the flames with the other two wastebaskets full or had to search the entire monastery and dispair of finding anything only to find it tucked away in some dark corner.. I just do not think that holds the same weight as being preserved down through the ages to every generation in the hands of believing Christians who revered it as the words of God and were trying faithfully to transfer it inviolate to the next believing generation. And it is highly unlikely that a scholar of "textual criticism" can dazzle me with his 'older manuscripts' scholastic achievements so that I would believe the older ones superior to those received and held by the persecuted church through the centuries of time - since to do so could cause you to conclude that God did NOT preserve His word to His people in each generation through the centuries while it sat on some dusty and unused shelf.

Sara.

-- August 22, 2006 5:53 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Rob N;

Concerning the Received Text, you said: "To its credit its manuscript count out numbers the critical text significantly." That is a bit like saying.. in this corner we have two hundred men all fit and toned from constant outdoor exercise (RECEIVED TEXT - the texts taken out and used daily in the churches).. AND.. in this corner we have two old decrepit men in wheelchairs who haven't seen the light of day for over two centuries (the OLDER ones sitting on the vatican and monastery shelves which were lost and unused).

Which of the two seems the healthier choice to you?

Sara.

-- August 22, 2006 6:27 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I wonder why the Iraqi Government isn't taking some positive steps to resolve these problems. They certainly have enough friends and tools to do it.
Have they given up on a unity government? Do they have a hidden agenda with Iran? Does anybody have any clues? I believe the US has the situation under control but it's very hard to see the path the Iraqi government is on right now.

============================================================================

Iraq facing "stagflation" as prices soar

Iraq's inflation rate jumped sharply last month in a clear signal of economic ill-health, the country's central bank said on Tuesday, warning the country was suffering from "stagflation" amid massive unemployment and faltering growth.

"The consumer price index, as a measure of inflation, recorded an increase of nearly 70 percent by the end of July 2006, compared to the same month in 2005," the bank said in a statement.

Consumer prices rose 52.5 percent year on year in June.

The acceleration was a clear warning of wider problems in a country ravaged by sectarian and insurgent violence, which U.S. officers have warned could topple Iraq into a full-scale civil war.

"This indicates that the overall economy is sinking in what is called stagflation and at levels which cause concern at a time when the real (oil) sector of the economy still suffers from declines in production levels," the central bank said.

Black market fuel prices have soared in recent weeks, hitting ordinary Iraqis hard and the International Monetary Fund warned on August 3 that inflation was a pressing concern.

As a result of the jump in inflation, the central bank, which was reformed after the 2003 U.S.-led invasion as an independent institution, said it had begun a twice-monthly 100 billion dinar ($68 million) auction of 182-day treasury bills to curb liquidity growth and put a brake on inflation.

-Reuters-

http://english.alarabonline.org/display.asp?fname=2006\08\08-22\zbusinessz\979.htm&dismode=x&ts=23/08/2006%2012:13:26%20%C3%95

-- August 22, 2006 6:38 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Yawn.

-- August 22, 2006 6:49 PM ∞

---

Valerio wrote:

Sara,
I read your response to my earlier posting three times, and I still don't know what you were saying. Some how you went into some idea of mans existance dating millions of years. I was not even remotely entertaining that idea. I was simply pointing out that the first days of the creation of this current earth age were not relative to our day of a 24 hour period of time. The evening and the morning were the first day, this simply meant that the end of this work from the beginning of it was the first day. I don't know what this time period was exactly, but what I do know is (2Peter 3:8) ...be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
My point was to show that the Fathers word has been, and still is, taught by those who make themselves appear as lambs, but only are wearing a lambs coat, and inside thay are wolves who serve only their own purpose. For the foundations of understanding, even from the beginning where the shinning one begiled Eve, and the bad seed and the good seed were produced, have not been taught in this generation. The word of our Father doesn't even teach that Adam was the only man that God created, thats mans tradition. What it does teach is that in the 6th day he created man, male and female created he them. Afteward he rested. Then he documents the creation of the man Adam, and the woman taken from his own DNA if you will have it. This man Adam and the woman Eve were created for the purpose of bringing the seed of Christ. And the Book is about this family, and how everthing purtains to it, including the bad seed who is jealous, and always tries to take their place where they ought not.
There was an age (world)before this one when we all were the sons of God, born of the spirit,and we were created as human beings born of water, in our own likeness, not exactness, and no man has ascended up to heaven but he that first descended from heaven, even Jesus, and there is an age (world) yet to come.

-- August 22, 2006 7:24 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Valerio;

You have lots of interesting spiritual insights.. thanks for the interesting post.
There are many things I am going to mull over and ponder in that. :)

Sara.

-- August 22, 2006 7:36 PM ∞

---

Robert wrote:

Hey Okie,
I ask myself those same questions. The high unemployment is helping the insurgents, as some of the unemployed plant IED's for money, as you well know.

Iraq seems to have stuttered on its economic growth plans. The only thing that seems to be growing is inflation and unemployment. Let's hope that they succeed in stopping it from growing any more out of control. At least, they do recognize/acknowledge the problem, and are trying to address it.

Nelly B,
You're beginning to snore. WAKE UP!!!!

Sara,
You go, girl.

-- August 22, 2006 7:41 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Trade Minister : the government seeks to transfer the Iraqi economy to a new stage
13:45 2006.08. 2 2
PUKmedia Laila Shamri / Baghdad :

Chaired by the Minister of Trade, Dr. Abdel Hassan Sudanese farmer meeting of the National Commission on Iraq accession to the WTO.

The minister emphasized the importance of the work of the Committee and the government's ambition to move the economy on a sound complete what it has started in the previous government, adding that the government was seeking to develop new plans and the transfer of the economy to a new stage, especially since the economy is related to all areas, He said that the WTO is the outcome and usefulness of Iraq if properly disposed of with this Convention because it will contribute to the transfer of the Iraqi economy to a market economy while maintaining the privacy and to be part of the global economy.

Referring to the importance of taking advantage of the Arab experience in the field of accession to the WTO and gain experience through participation in training courses.

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&langpair=ar%7Cen&u=http://www.pukmedia.com/arabicnews/22-8/news15.html

-- August 22, 2006 7:51 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

US forces not likely to stay for long in Iraq
August 23, 2006 02:22 IST

American forces are not expected to stay in Iraq for the reminder of the term of President George W Bush, who will be leaving office on January 20, 2009.

The draw down of US troops will begin before that period but would depend on the ground situation, a top American military commander in Iraq said.

In the last two weeks of this new operation 'which we call phase two of Operation Together Forward, we're seeing some very promising indications that this portion of the operation has been very successful.

He also argued that it is not the policy of US troops to go after individuals and a decision to this effect must be taken by the prime minister of Iraq.

The American Commander was responding to a remark made in some quarters that perhaps Muqtada al Sadr must be eliminated in the same fashion Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was targeted as al Sadr is not only seen as organising sectarian violence and killings but also having blood on his hands by killing American soldiers.

"Our policy is to only go after those elements that are operating outside of the law. To go after one individual like that, that's a decision the prime minister would have to make in this country, not us.

"We right now are conducting operations deliberately each and every day to target those people who are operating outside of the law and not conforming to the norms that this prime minister has established for his country," Gen Caldwell said.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/aug/23iraq.htm

-- August 22, 2006 8:30 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

U.S. says over 100 known, suspected terrorists captured in Iraq
Tuesday, Aug. 22, 2006

By VIJAY JOSHI Associated Press Writer

(AP) - BAGHDAD, Iraq-U.S. and Iraqi forces have captured more than 100 known and suspected terrorists in the past week, including one linked to the Feb. 22 bombing of a Shiite shrine that triggered a cycle of sectarian violence, a U.S. spokesman said Tuesday.

At the same time, more than 500 Iraqi men have joined the police in restive Anbar province - a focal point of the Sunni Arab insurgency - in the most successful recruiting drive in the region.

http://news.corporatecounselcentre.ca/ap/o/51/08-22-2006/b21c001e894c2b6c.html

-- August 22, 2006 8:31 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

August, 22 - 11:32 AM
UK may cut Iraq force in half by mid-2007: commander

London.– Britain may cut its force in Iraq in half by the middle of next year after handing over security responsibility for the south to Iraqis within nine months, a senior British commander said on Tuesday.

Britain handed over responsibility for one of the southern provinces it controls to Iraqi forces in July, and the commander said it hopes to hand over a second province next month.

He said the first thousand British troops could start returning home in the next 4 to 6 months, in part representing forces being drawn down from Maysan province, where Britain has already begun moving out of its main base.

http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=16675

-- August 22, 2006 8:33 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Good job Sara. I knew you could post useful information if you really tried. Perhaps you could show Rob N. how to do the same.

TAYLOR

-- August 22, 2006 9:43 PM ∞

---

Seeker wrote:

Taxmma

I can't find it, but somewhere back about a month ago in this rolling conversation. Someone (It might have been you) mentioned something about using a "LIVING TRUST?" as a tax shelter. Ring any bells. Is there such a thing? If so what are the advantages/disadvantages?

Sara

I don't comment much here but I read every day. I don't mind your postings. I rather enjoy them. When fresh Dinar news it scarce it fills the void. More education is always a good thing.
BUT!
This IS a Dinar board. When the general population says enough is enough, back it up.
Please!

There are alot of intelligent interesting people here with alot of intelligent interesting things to say. Yet sometimes you carry on like this is SARA'S BOARD.
As far back as I've read this board, religion has always been the backup topic. Relax, you'll get your chance to kick in somemore later, AND PLEASE STOP THE OBSESSIVE YELLING! Your like a kid with a new toy every since you were shown how to do it.

Post On

-- August 23, 2006 12:08 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Taxmama,

Thank you for the info, really informative. I like the concept of Annuity.

Seker,

Living Trust was posed by Carl, I think you have to scroll back a page or two for that one.

Steve,

I have my money in the mattres too, but to be sure I locked in the mattres in a safetybox.

-- August 23, 2006 2:33 AM ∞

---

carl wrote:

Taylor:
Just read your 2 year old temper fit. Your display of English words by your use of.. lets say colorful words... toward Sara was a wonderful picture of your inner soul..painted in brilliant bold colors.....

Now! so you really won't understand what I am saying to you...I will speak real slow ...so you can understand it...

ROB N! W A S W R O N G!!!
IF YOU CAN'T BE CIVIL AND STOP BEING DISRESPECTFUL TO THE CONTRIBUTORS OF THIS BOARD....
G E T T H E H E L L O F F!!!

Board members should not condone your display of childishness toward another T&B family member...
It is OK! to disagree and rebuttal any post...but to personally attack is a rule that should not be crossed and any violation not tolerated by any member of this board...
straighten up your act or leave the board.

-- August 23, 2006 9:01 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Looks like the Kurds are still making good progress on moving their economy along.
The burning question is...why isn't the Central government doing the same? What other business is taking up so much of their time? It couldn't be security...The US is taking care of that for them.
I read somewhere that Maliki has three months to get things moving or he's outta there. Makes sense to me.

============================================================================

KRG Natural Resources Minister responds to comments on draft Kurdistan Petroleum Act

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

22 August 2006 (KRG)
Dr. Ashti Hawrami, KRG Minister for Natural Resources, responds to comments received on the draft Kurdistan Petroleum Act

Office of KRG Spokesman

Erbil, Kurdistan – Iraq, 22 August 2006 - The initial Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) Draft Petroleum Act was produced for internal discussions in early July 2006. At the same time, a similar compatible Draft Law was also prepared by the KRG for the whole of Iraq, which was presented to the Federal Authorities. Over the last several weeks, it became apparent that the priorities of the Federal Authorities remained focused on other pressing matters, hence the KRG decided to publish our Draft Petroleum Act for the Kurdistan Region for public consultation on 7 August. This was intended to generate some feedback internally as well as from the wider international investment community regarding the fairness and the clarity of the proposed Act.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php?refid=DH-S-23-08-2006&article=10051

-- August 23, 2006 9:12 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Sara:

I am not sure why you are limiting your perspective about New Testament text types. I acknowledged the value of the Textus Receptus, but the critical text is closer to the autographs and less contaminated by outside influences.

This notion of outside influences brings to mind one other variant worth considering, IJn. 5:7,8. (7) For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (8) And there are three that bear witness in earth], the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. [Words in brackets and italics] = The 16th Century additions to (corruptions of) what was in the original text of the New Testament.

Simply the received text with no internal or external evidence includes the variant from Erasmus. Sara, please click the enclosed link(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textus_Receptus)and you can read the complete story. Of course, neither the codex Vaticanus or codex Sinaiticus contain the words in brackets (predate Textus Receptus). None of the Church Fathers (predate Textus Receptus) do not site the bracketed part of the verse. No ancient version (predating Textus Receptus)include the bracketed part of the text. Textual criticism can conclude the bracketed part of the text did not originally appear in the New Testament. This is just one example where the critical text or the older text can correct a corruption.

My last recommendation concerns the version of the bible you use. The KJV (based upon the textus receptus) is a good version. I would also recommend the ASV 1901, Westcott and Hort were on the translation commitee. These men and the others on the tranlation committee did their due dilligence and used the critical text for the basis of this translation. They do include the major variants of Mark 16:9-20, John 7:53-8:11, and IJn. 5:7 and 8 yet with textual notes. The version is still in print and is worth picking up.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 23, 2006 10:50 AM ∞

---

Robert wrote:

Hey Gang,
I thought that this was interesting. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/08/23/ntroops23.xml Britain may halve troop numbers in Iraq by next year
By Thomas Harding, Defence Correspondent

The number of British troops in Iraq could be halved within the next nine months, military chiefs indicated yesterday.

-- August 23, 2006 11:28 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Top U.K. General In Iraq Says Violence Isn't A Civil War; Iran "Stoking Up Violence"
August 22, 2006 8:34 p.m. EST
Matthew Borghese - All Headline News Staff Writer

Washington, D.C. (AHN) - British Royal Marine Lt. Gen. Robert Fry, deputy commander of Multinational Force Iraq and the senior British military representative in Iraq, says the violence in the country is not a civil war, as many claim.

In a conference, held in Baghdad and broadcast to the Pentagon via satellite, General Fry says the violence is a "very intense sectarian conflict," yet explains, "In my judgment, we are not in a situation of civil war."

General Fry adds, "I think that we can see a very clear Iranian role in stoking up violence inside Iraq."

Fry says that "Iraq is not in a civil war because the Iraqi government is intact and functioning. Iraq's elected leaders are in control and are busily addressing pressing national issues."

According to the Pentagon, most of Iraq is stable, Fry pointed out, noting 14 of the country's 18 provinces experience little or no violence. He also cited the Iraqi police takeover of security duties in Muthanna province at the end of July as another positive step.

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7004619527

-- August 23, 2006 12:35 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

British troops snatch 'terrorist'
22-08-2006 / 13:11

British troops backed by Challenger tanks raided a site in the southern Iraqi town of Amara and seized six suspects, a spokesman said.

Major Charlie Burbridge told AFP one suspect was a "terrorist of national significance by the standard of the whole of Iraq". He would not elaborate.

He said Tuesday's operation was aimed at dealing with gunmen who had been launching mortar attacks against a British base at Abu Naji, near Amara.

During a probe into the attacks, troops "received intelligence about a major terrorist", he said.

http://www.wanadoo.jo/factu.php?articleId=1575749

-- August 23, 2006 12:48 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Good news regarding the Banks in Iraq. I deal with Warka Bank in Baghdad and they are making good progress implementing their on-line system and I assume the other banks are doing likewise.

I started banking with Warka in Aug.2005 and can now see the balances on my accounts ($,IQD and ISX) down to the Dinar and includes 6% interest on the IQD account. interest. My next step with them will be a Visa debit card. The on-line system is still a work-in-progress.

My stocks are being held by Warka in an escrow account until it becomes legal for them to make the transfer to my account which should be right after the FIL is approved. I purchased mostly Banks and soft drink companies...how in the hell can you go wrong on that!

For info., Warka is fairly recent but their parent company Al-Bunnia, has been around for about 100 years and is one of the premier companies in Iraq.

http://www.warka-bank.com/

http://www.al-bunnia.com/

-- August 23, 2006 2:08 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Iraq security adviser says violence levels falling
23/08/2006
Source: The Star Online

The level of violence in Baghdad has fallen sharply since July thanks to troop reinforcements and the new government's efforts to reconcile warring Shi'ites and Sunnis, Iraq's national security adviser said on Tuesday.

"This is absolutely not a civil war," Rubaie told Reuters in an interview during a visit to Japan. "Al Qaeda tried for that for three years and failed miserably. But it has created a crack between Shias and Sunnis."

He challenged the notion that violence was out of control in the Iraqi capital, saying it had peaked last month.

"The surge was only until mid-July," he said. "The number of attacks is down from mid-July by 45 percent and extra-judicial murders ... are down 35 percent since mid-July. We're there, we're definitely on the mend."

Washington has poured thousands of troop reinforcements into Baghdad in recent weeks, after surging violence frustrated plans to start withdrawing some forces before the end of the year.

Rubaie said the government's strategy of reaching out to those who have taken up arms was working.

"We tried the stick for three years. We need a big carrot and a smaller stick," he said, adding that even "die-hard elements" were now approaching the government with conditions for peace.

He said Iraq had made big strides towards establishing effective security forces of its own, and was aiming to build its army from 138,000 now to 150,000-160,000 by the end of this year.

However, while Iraqi security forces are currently conducting over 60 percent of operations themselves, they still rely on the U.S.-led coalition forces for back-up and intelligence.

"We are running under fire, trying to do up our laces," he said. "We're almost there but this is an intelligence-led war, not a classic war."

http://www.iraqdirectory.com/DisplayNews.aspx?id=1890

-- August 23, 2006 2:30 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Thanks, TAYLOR.. I try.

Appreciate the etiquette lesson, Carl. You always call em as you see em.. you make a great umpire. :)

Rob N - said, "Textual criticism can conclude the bracketed part of the text did not originally appear in the New Testament. This is just one example where the critical text or the older text can correct a corruption."

Reply:

1 John 5:7-8 has been attacked by the pro modern version crowd as being a scribal addition later on in years. However, 1 John 5:7-8 is found in the Old Latin Vulgate and Greek Vulgate (90-150 A.D.), plus the Syriac Peshiito (150 A.D.) It is also found in many first century church lectionaries. Lectionaries were used in churches for readings and liturgy for church services especially for special days of the year. They are akin to the responsive readings which we find in today’s hymn books. Tatian’s Diatesseron which was a harmony of the four gospels written about 150 A.D. When Taitian was writing the book of John, he had referenced 1 John 5:7 which proves that 1 John 5:7 antedates Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, by 200 years, where the verse is omitted.

Dr. John Overall, who was one of the King James translators was a scholar in the teachings of the early Church Fathers. His contribution concerning 1 John 5:7 was vital since manuscript evidence was lacking because of the Alexandrian school where it was mutilated. He knew that the early church fathers had referenced those verses quite frequently. The modern version proponents only look to Vaticanus and Sinaiticus as their authorities and reject the massive amount of other evidences such as the church lectionaries. If 1 John 5:7-8 did not exist in the originals, then how could they have been quoted by the church fathers if it was non-existent? A simple question of logic.

Some of the other evidences where 1 John 5:7-8 can be found are as follows:
Some Syriac Peshitto manuscripts, The Syriac Edition at Hamburg, Bishop Uscan’s Armenian Bible, the Armenian Edition of John Zohrob, the first printed Georgian Bible.

Early Latin witnesses include:
1) Tertullian who died in 220 A.D.
2) Cyprian of Carthage who died in 258 A.D.
3) Priscillan who died in 358 A.D.
4) The Speculum - Fifth century
5) A creed called Esposito Fidei - Fifth or sixth century
6) Old Latin - Fifth or sixth century
7) A Confession of Faith of Eugenius, Bishop of Carthage (484 A.D.)
8) Cassiodoris of Italy (480-570 A.D.)

Nine Manuscripts which contain 1 John 5:7-8:
#61 - Sixteenth century
#88 - Twelfth century
#221 - Tenth century
#429 - Fourteenth century
#629 - Fourteenth century
#535 - Eleventh century
#636 - Fifteenth century
#918 - Sixteenth century
#2318 - Eighteenth century

http://www.scionofzion.com/1_john_5_78.htm

Sara.

-- August 23, 2006 3:15 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

As for it all being Erasmus' idea (from the same page above):

Now Erasmus in reference to 1 John 5:7 originally did not want to include that portion unless a Greek manuscript could be found as evidence of its authenticity. He claimed that Greek manuscripts and even some Latin manuscripts did not have this verse in it. In due time Erasmus was presented with Codex Montfortianus which is in Dublin, Ireland and Codex Britannicus which both contained 1 John 5:7 and with this proof, he confidently placed these verses in his third edition of the Greek in 1522 and his last one in 1535.

===end===

Very obviously, then, Erasmus was convinced by evidence and not by his own leanings.

Sara.

-- August 23, 2006 3:36 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Okie,

I find the fact that you are earning interest on your account very compelling. 6% when you have about 12mil is quite significant. However, I just can't bring myself to send secure personal info over there right now. Mebbe in a few months I'll begin to rethink my strategy. Its too bad, I want in on the ISX early .......

Gimmie a cattle prod so I can beat Al Maliki with it.........

-- August 23, 2006 4:15 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

'Clear evidence' Iran is arming, training Iraqi extremists: US general

WASHINGTON, 23 August 2006 (AFP) -- A senior US military official said there is "clear evidence" that Iran is funding, training and arming Shiite extremists to destabilize Iraq.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php/article/10068

-- August 23, 2006 5:33 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

http://www.iraqieconomy.org

Iraq facing 'stagflation' as prices soar August 23, 2006 - Iraqi inflation soared last month in a clear symptom of economic ill-health, the Central Bank of Iraq said yesterday, warning the country was sinking into "stagflation" as violence choked business activity.
"The consumer price index, as a measure of inflation, recorded an increase of nearly 70 per cent by the end of July 2006 compared to the same month in 2005," the central bank said.
Consumer prices rose 52.5pc in the year to June and the acceleration highlights wider problems in a country ravaged by sectarian and insurgent bloodshed, which US officers have warned could topple Iraq into a civil war.
Lifting growth is a priority of the Shi'ite-led government of Prime Minister Nuri Al Maliki, which blames poverty and unemployment for swelling the ranks of the insurgency. But progress since he took office in May has been slow.
Ordinary Iraqis have been particularly hard-hit by rising black market petrol prices. This has added to the misery of stifling summer heat, since most homes rely on fuel-powered generators for their electricity to run air conditioning.
Inflation was also the International Monetary Fund's top concern when it reviewed Iraq earlier this month under a $685 million credit agreement granted in late 2004. "If the current price developments are compared to unemployment levels and their high averages that reached around 50pc then this indicates that the overall economy is sinking in what is called stagflation," the central bank said.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 23, 2006 6:00 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

http://www.iraqieconomy.org

Iraq Oil Workers on Strike August 22, 2006 - Hundreds of oil company employees went on strike Tuesday for higher pay, officials said.
The job action cut supplies to power stations and factories as Iraq faces its worst fuel shortage since Saddam Hussein's 2003 ouster.
About 350 workers from the Iraqi Pipes and Lines Company in the southern city of Basra and another 200 in Nasiriyah, about 200 miles southeast of Baghdad, walked off the job Tuesday morning, according to the head of the workers' union.
The workers want higher salaries, paid holidays and a share of the profits. Monthly salaries at the company currently range from $130 to $280.
The company runs tankers and pipelines transporting oil and gas from the Shuaiba refinery in Basra to electricity stations, factories and companies in southern Iraq.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 23, 2006 6:02 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

What are your comments concerning stagflation and oil strike?

In my view, a non-existent economy and lack of significant oil production are keeping the Central Bank from moving forward with a re-evaluation of the Dinar.

Until these issues are resolved no RV can be offered. I still believe we are sometime from an RV due to these issues. Hang on to your Dinars we are in for a long......wait.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 23, 2006 6:06 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

IRAQ: MASS GRAVE FOUND IN KURDISTAN

Erbil, 23 August (AKI) - Regional government sources in Iraqi Kurdistan say that two mass graves have been found in the area of Bashdar, in the province of Sulaymaniya.

"The local authorities have been informed of their existence and have contacted the regional ministry for human rights asking them to send a team of experts" the sources said. They added that "to date three bodies have been pulled out of the first grave, while the second grave has been left intact until the arrival of the ministry experts."

The graves were located close to a military base used by the forces of Saddam Hussein's regime as an intelligence bureau for the region.

Regarding the identity of the victims, the sources believe that they could be detainees of the Iraqi secret services who were in Kurdistan prior to 1991 when the Iraqi army was expelled from the area under US pressure during the Gulf War.

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Security&loid=8.0.333272450&par=

-- August 23, 2006 6:10 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Iran to offer $1b credit line for Iraq’s economic projects

TEHRAN, Aug. 23 (MNA) – Iran intends to establish a $1b credit line in Iraq to encourage investment and participation in the country’s major economic projects. The conditions on how to use the funds are yet to be elaborated and specified, general manager of International Relations Office at Iran’s Ministry of Industries and Mines announced on Wednesday.

Hospital and road construction, medical equipment, poultry, tile, electricity transfer lines, construction and renovation of power plants, communications, mining, ship repair and other industrial activities are among the sectors of interest to Iranian side, he said.

http://www.mehrnews.com/en/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsID=370616

Are the Iranians trying to put their people into Iraq by "investing" into those sectors??
Are they using this money to place Iranians directly into those sectors in Iraq??
Is it a kind of infiltration by the Iranians...
by putting in charge of their monetary projects only those who are sympathizers with Iranian interests,
or designating that those who oversee these projects are their own imported Iranian "experts" (spies)?
Why is this being allowed by the Iraqi government?
Are they so poor they need Iran and the terrorists which come attached to their purse strings?

Sara.

-- August 23, 2006 6:19 PM ∞

---

Robert wrote:

Hey Gang,

This article below sounds good, but then again, I am not so sure. Iran could be up to something besides just trying make a little interest from a loan to Iraq. What do you think, Carl?

http://www.mehrnews.ir/en/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsID=370616
Iran to offer $1b credit line for Iraq’s economic projects

TEHRAN, Aug. 23 (MNA) – Iran intends to establish a $1b credit line in Iraq to encourage investment and participation in the country’s major economic projects. The conditions on how to use the funds are yet to be elaborated and specified, general manager of International Relations Office at Iran’s Ministry of Industries and Mines announced on Wednesday.
“Aziz Jaffar Hassan, financial advisor to Iraq’s vice-president, was in Tehran this week to discuss the terms and conditions of such an agreement with Mohsen Shaterzadeh, the ministry’s economic deputy. Both sides endorsed a draft for common projects in the neighboring country,” Ghader Soleimani added.

A joint special committee of top ranking experts and advisors from both countries are to follow up on Iran’s proposed projects in Iraq and the committee is to have one meeting every six months alternately in Tehran and Baghdad.

Hospital and road construction, medical equipment, poultry, tile, electricity transfer lines, construction and renovation of power plants, communications, mining, ship repair and other industrial activities are among the sectors of interest to Iranian side, he said.

-- August 23, 2006 6:27 PM ∞

---

Robert wrote:

Sara,

Sorry about the double post on the article. We must have been posting at the same time. But, you beat me by six minutes. That is totally strange.

-- August 23, 2006 6:30 PM ∞

---

Robert wrote:

Sorry about the extra post folks, but Sara beat me by 8 minutes, not 6. I hit the wrong number key.

-- August 23, 2006 6:34 PM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

I would not trust IRAN with anything, ever.
If they're bullying their way into Iraq, I'd get my Dinar out as fast as I could after it revals.
These are very very evil people and not to be trusted.

-- August 23, 2006 7:09 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Sara wrote:

'Clear evidence' Iran is arming, training Iraqi extremists: US general

WASHINGTON, 23 August 2006 (AFP) -- A senior US military official said there is "clear evidence" that Iran is funding, training and arming Shiite extremists to destabilize Iraq.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php/article/10068

Sara wrote:

Iran to offer $1b credit line for Iraq’s economic projects

TEHRAN, Aug. 23 (MNA) – Iran intends to establish a $1b credit line in Iraq to encourage investment and participation in the country’s major economic projects. The conditions on how to use the funds are yet to be elaborated and specified, general manager of International Relations Office at Iran’s Ministry of Industries and Mines announced on Wednesday.

Hospital and road construction, medical equipment, poultry, tile, electricity transfer lines, construction and renovation of power plants, communications, mining, ship repair and other industrial activities are among the sectors of interest to Iranian side, he said.

http://www.mehrnews.com/en/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsID=370616

--------------------- It would seen Tehran suffers from Bipolar disorder. To invest now before actually achieving the wanted effect through insurgency is, well, strange.....

Unless Iran is changing it's mind about things and using Iraq as an economic springboard like everyone else.....

-- August 23, 2006 7:28 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Rob N wrote:

All:

What are your comments concerning stagflation and oil strike?

In my view, a non-existent economy and lack of significant oil production are keeping the Central Bank from moving forward with a re-evaluation of the Dinar.

Until these issues are resolved no RV can be offered. I still believe we are sometime from an RV due to these issues. Hang on to your Dinars we are in for a long......wait.

Thanks,

Rob N.

--------------------------- You forget that an RV is completely arbitrary with respect to the country in question. The real issue is how will other countries view it? Will they honor the cited exchange rate or will they think of it as a bunch of hooey? Initially anyway, I believe that an RV will be honored by the international community (if for no other reason because of US backing.....). At this point however, Iraq will definitely be on the clock as far as getting things in place. RV will allow citizens to get goods that they need in the short term at more competitive rates. This might be the spark that gets things moving. You must have a happy population base in order to be productive. If in the short term (I mean 3-6 months or so) Iraqi citizens can live comparably to thier neighbors, this will make ALL the difference IMO.

-- August 23, 2006 7:54 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Taxmamma....

I agree with you...run don't walk to the nearest bank after the RV....

-- August 23, 2006 8:11 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

I believe the RV will give the Iraqis the kickstart they so desperately need in order to bring in the Foreign Investment to really get going on their economic goals. PROGRESS.. AT LAST!! And even if at the time of RV many Dinarians cash out, Dinarians are only small fry with their (generally) under five million Dinar each.. and the economic fortune of Iraq is not made or broken by our contributions. The opening up of the country to FI can make all the difference as to the Iraqi's ability to move forward.. and prevail in their economic goals. They are hamstrung now by their lack of a good economy and economic strategy. That would change with an RV. The other factors (Iran, security, insurgency) are being handled professionally and I believe that no matter what happens Iraq will prevail in the end. I hate the MSM for their defeatism when I KNOW Iraq will prevail in the end. They only contribute to delaying the inevitable longer..

Sara.

-- August 23, 2006 8:59 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I believe the additional US troops are making steady progress in re-taking Baghdad. It might help if they were allowed to swing Sadr from the end of a rope.

===============================================================================
Khalilzad: Baghdad key to Iraq's future

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 Posted: 1907 GMT (0307 HKT)

The U.S. ambassador to Iraq warned Wednesday that "Iraq faces an urgent crisis in securing its capital."

In a Wall Street Journal op-ed column titled "The Battle of Baghdad," Zalmay Khalilzad wrote that Iraq's security depended on stopping sectarian violence in Baghdad.

"The Battle of Baghdad will determine the future of Iraq, which will itself go a long way to determining the future of the world's most vital region," he wrote. "Although much difficult work still remains to be done, it is imperative that we give the Iraqis the time and material support necessary to see this plan through and to win the Battle of Baghdad."

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/23/baghdad.khalilzad/

-- August 23, 2006 9:12 PM ∞

---

Mike wrote:

Hey Guys and girls....especially you Sara my friend....Hope all is well and I am back to the basics. God Bless...

-- August 24, 2006 9:20 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Sara:

In question is the bracketed part of I Jn. 5:7,8. None of those sources you sited in your response contain this part of the verse.

Regarding Erasmus, yes he did not want to include the bracketed portion. He concluded it did not appear in the original autographs. The only he included it in his greek new testament resulted in the pressure from the Church to teach its Trinity Doctrine.

You and I both know we do not need the bracketed portion of I Jn. 5: 7,8 to support the trinity. Regardless, the issue is whether this bracketed portion is in the autgraph's. The answer is no. It was an invention of the Church and included by Erasmus. I would hate to stand in Judgement for adding to the word of God.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 24, 2006 9:29 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Sara wrote:

I believe the RV will give the Iraqis the kickstart they so desperately need in order to bring in the Foreign Investment to really get going on their economic goals. PROGRESS.. AT LAST!! And even if at the time of RV many Dinarians cash out, Dinarians are only small fry with their (generally) under five million Dinar each.. and the economic fortune of Iraq is not made or broken by our contributions. The opening up of the country to FI can make all the difference as to the Iraqi's ability to move forward.. and prevail in their economic goals. They are hamstrung now by their lack of a good economy and economic strategy. That would change with an RV. The other factors (Iran, security, insurgency) are being handled professionally and I believe that no matter what happens Iraq will prevail in the end. I hate the MSM for their defeatism when I KNOW Iraq will prevail in the end. They only contribute to delaying the inevitable longer..

Sara.

----------------------- A long last, sara and I agree on something.....LOL!!!!

Okie wrote:

"I believe the additional US troops are making steady progress in re-taking Baghdad. It might help if they were allowed to swing Sadr from the end of a rope."

----------------------- Werd!

-- August 24, 2006 9:31 AM ∞

---

Robert wrote:

Sara wrote:

They are hamstrung now by their lack of a good economy and economic strategy. That would change with an RV. The other factors (Iran, security, insurgency) are being handled professionally and I believe that no matter what happens Iraq will prevail in the end.

------- Sara, I agree with Rob N. on this one. I think that you and I have a differing opinion on the "chicken or the egg" approach regarding Iraq's financial picture; the crux of the question being, "Which comes first- the RV or a strong viable Iraqi economy?" .

I think that the Iraqi economy has a looong way to go(years) before a reval can take place. Although, I must admit that I base this opinion on the same gut feeling as you base your opinion on.

But, I do agree with you on your hopeful assessment of Iraq's future. Go IRAQ!

-- August 24, 2006 10:46 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Now all we need is the FIL and the hydrocarbon law passed and we're in business for an RV.......

==========================================================================
Iraq seeks to start mega-port project in a year
(Reuters)

24 August 2006

SINGAPORE - Iraq is planning to develop a mega-port in the south within a year, which includes an oil terminal that is slated to complement the current offshore facility in Basra, a senior industry official said on Thursday.
>
>
>
The proposed oil terminal is part of the Iraqi government’s broader plans to invest more than $60 billion over the next five years to develop Ras al-Besha, United Arab Emirates newspaper Al-Bayan reported late last year.

But so far only small firms such as Norway’s DNO have planned to invest in Iraqi projects, while top oil companies are focused on the upstream oil sector as soon as an effective process is in place for project bidding.

Jabar said the UK-based Halcrow Group, involved in the development of Qatar’s Ras Laffan liquefied natural gas export facility, was to play a role in the broader port infrastructure project. A Halcrow spokesman was unable to immediately comment on the matter.

http://www.khaleejtimes.ae/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/business/2006/August/business_August616.xml§ion=business&col

-- August 24, 2006 11:06 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

More good news from ground zero.....

========================================================================
U.S. military upbeat on Baghdad clampdown
22 Aug 2006 17:22:07 GMT
Source: Reuters

BAGHDAD, Aug 22 (Reuters) - Violence in Baghdad has declined in the past two weeks and all but ended in some formerly deadly neighbourhoods, the U.S. military said in a cautiously upbeat report on Tuesday on a major security clampdown in the city.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/MAC258745.htm

-- August 24, 2006 12:46 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

--------------------I thought this was interesting. I was browsing on E-Bay when I came across this link on a Dinar sale:
This is a fairly recent article, but I thought that the zero-lop argument was on the shelf. Seems that some folks are still entertaining the idea after all...... Is this just outdated crap, or is this a real possibility? Opinions?

Iraqi Dinar Value should be Raised, Baker Jaber AL Zubaidi:

June 30, 2006

This was pre 1980 before Iraq became involved in three destructive wars that at one time led to the currency's value dropping to a level of 3,000 Iraqi dinars to one US dollar. The proposal has the support and approval of the World Bank. A statement by B.J. AL Zubaidi, the Minister of Finance, in which he said that he had suggested to the Chairman of the Central Bank, Dr. Sinan AL Shibibi, that three zeros be taken from the Iraqi Dinar in order to raise its value so that one Dinar be equal to a Dollar. He explained that the financial authorities were set on holding a meeting next month to discuss the matter. The meeting is to be attended by experts and specialists from the Ministry of Finance, the Iraqi Central Bank and the Commercial Bank .

The new Minister confirmed that 2007 would see the preparation of a qualitative budget, the first of its kind in Iraq history, and that the new program would pinpoint economic indicators.(Source)AlSabah

http://www.iraqdirectory.com/DisplayNews.aspx?id=1593

News link source abovesource

-- August 24, 2006 12:54 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I found this on another forum and thought all the Liberals on here would enjoy it......
===========================================================================

BILL AND HILLARY AT THE BALL GAME

Bill and Hillary are at the Red Sox -Yankees Game; sitting in the first row, with the Secret Service people directly behind them.

One of the Secret Service guys leans forward and whispers something to Bill.

At first, Clinton stares at the guy, looks at Hillary, looks back at the agent, and shakes his head "no".

The agent then says, "Mr. President, it was a unanimous request of the entire team, from the owner of the team to the bat boy."

Bill hesitates, but begins to change his mind when the agent tells him the fans would love it.

Bill shrugs his shoulders and! says, "Ho-Kay! If that is what the people want. C'mere Hilly baby..."

With that, Bill gets up, grabs Hillary by her collar and the seat of her pants, lifts her up, and tosses her right over the wall onto the field.

She gets up kicking, swearing, screaming, "Bill you "!^$#@&!"

The crowd goes absolutely wild. Fans are jumping up & down, cheering, hooting, hollering, and high-fiving.

Bill is bowing, smiling and waving to the crowd. He leans over to the agent and says, "How about that! I would have never believed how much everyone would enjoy that!"

Noticing the agent has gone totally pale, he asks what is wrong.

"Sir," the agent replies, "I said they want you to throw out the first Pitch."

-- August 24, 2006 1:02 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

I also found it interesting that this person had a 50 dinar coin for sale. I know that 25 and 100's existed, but this was the first I have heard of the 50's. Can anyone tell me when that came into circulation?

-- August 24, 2006 1:04 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

The following is one man's opinion only.

That said, a gentleman I have considered buying dinar from stated that the RV if/when it happens will be around $.010. He is confident the value of the Dinar will rise as Iraq's economy prospers.

He also stated, Iraq moves very slowly but the Central Government, the IMF, and the World Bank are participating in weekly meetings, but an RV is not happening by the end of the August as some speculate.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 24, 2006 2:26 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Hi, Mike! Welcome. :)

Steve - Glad we finally have agreement on something! :)

Robert - Definitely I believe in the CHICKEN (RV) coming first not the EGG (complete recovery of the economy). Definitely the chicken first. It is a chicken that must lay the egg.. it doesn't get there on its own. ;) And if you look at it.. eggs die if you don't have a chicken to sit on them (try it, you will see).. so, you see.. you need a chicken (the RV) to make the egg (economy) "hatch"!! :)

Okie, that joke was in bad taste, really. I just dislike personal attacks and would call that a "cheap shot", myself.

Rob N;

I agree that one verse in the Bible should not dictate an entire belief system. If the idea of the Tri-unity of God is ONLY found in this one verse then it would be very shaky ground.

There are refutes to your arguments.. a few here then urls so it doesn't take up precious space on the Dinar board.

Quote:

THE MANUSCRIPT ARGUMENT. Carson states that there are only four MSS that contain this reading. He is wrong about the facts. The current UBSNT lists six MSS (61, 88mg, 429mg, 629, 636mg, and 918) containing the "Comma." Moreover, D.A. Waite cites evidence of some twenty MSS containing it (those confirmed are 61, 88mg, 629, 634mg, 636mg, omega 110, 429mg, 221, and 2318) along with two lectionaries (60, 173) and four fathers (Tertullian, Cyprian, Augustine, and Jerome). ["I John 5.7," The Dean Burgon News 5 (1979); 1.]

This evidence is ample to argue for the retention of the Johannine Comma. Incidentally, some verses in the UBSNT have been retained on far less evidence than this.

===end of quote==
Concerning that last statement, "some verses in the UBSNT have been retained on far less evidence than this."

I do think it unfair to require a greater degree of evidence for retention of one part of Scripture than for another from the Manuscript evidence. It appears to me that it illustrates bias against the verses.. that someone wishes to intentionally EXCLUDE them (for whatever reason), to my mind.

As for internal evidence that the bracketed portions of these verses were originally included but are now removed, here is the text itself.. then the refute from the internal arguments:

HOTI TREIS EISIN HOI MARTUROUNTES (EN TO OURANO, HO PATER, HO LOGOS, KAI TO HAGION PNEUMA; KAI HOUTOI HOI TREIS HEN EISI. KAI TREIS EISIN HOI MARTUROUTES EN TE GE) TO PNEUMA, KAI TO HUDOR, KAI TO HAIMA; KAI HOI TREIS EIS TO HEN EISIN.
The internal evidence against the omission is as follows:

1. The masculine article, numeral and participle HOI TREIS MARTUROUNTES, are made to agree directly with three neuters, an insuperable and very bald grammatical difficulty. If the disputed words are allowed to remain, they agree with two masculines and one neuter noun HO PATER, HO LOGOS, KAI TO HAGION PNEUMA and, according to the rule of syntax, the masculines among the group control the gender over a neuter connected with them. Then the occurrence of the masculines TREIS MARTUROUNTES in verse 8 agreeing with the neuters PNEUMA, HUDOR and HAIMA may be accounted for by the power of attraction, well known in Greek syntax.

2. If the disputed words are omitted, the 8th verse coming next to the 6th gives a very bald and awkward, and apparently meaningless repetition of the Spirit's witness twice in immediate succession.

3. If the words are omitted, the concluding words at the end of verse 8 contain an unintelligible reference. The Greek words KAI HOI TREIS EIS TO HEN EISIN mean precisely--"and these three agree to that (aforesaid) One." This rendering preserves the force of the definite article in this verse. Then what is "that One" to which "these three" are said to agree? If the 7th verse is omitted "that One" does not appear, and "that One" in verse 8, which designates One to whom the reader has already been introduced, has not antecedent presence in the passage. Let verse 7 stand, and all is clear, and the three earthly witnesses testify to that aforementioned unity which the Father, Word and Spirit constitute.

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/vindicationof.htm

See also:

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/fbns/fbns25.html

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/defending1.htm

Perhaps if you wish to take the argument further, you can write me at my email address of: saraand-at-fastmail.fm

Thanks,

Sara.

-- August 24, 2006 2:46 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Rob,

Did the gentleman give any opinion on a potential timeframe for RV. End of the year? Next year?
He is a dealer though, would you expect anything but a good forecast from him?

-- August 24, 2006 2:46 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

US General in Iraq Claims 'Great Progress' in Baghdad Security Clampdown; Iraq is far from civil war
By VOA News 24 August 2006

The top U.S. commander in the Middle East says a U.S.-Iraqi security clampdown in Baghdad is making great progress, and he says Iraq is far from civil war.

General John Abizaid spoke to reporters Thursday in Baghdad. He said comments he made earlier this month that civil war was possible in Iraq have been misinterpreted. The general said he did not mean Iraq is close to civil war.

On Wednesday, a top U.S. military official, Brigadier General Michael Barbero, told reporters at the Pentagon that there is clear evidence Iranian forces are in Iraq giving training, money and equipment to Shi'ite insurgents.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-08-24-voa35.cfm

-- August 24, 2006 2:57 PM ∞

---

reevesdon wrote:

Iraq

Cabinet-the government communications

Media Relations

A press statement / Press Release

Wednesday, 23-8-2006

The Prime Minister determines the responsibility of dealing with Iraq's foreign debts of the Ministry of Finance and the Central Bank exclusively

The Prime Minister Nuri Kamel Maliki, drawn by Order No. 48, the responsibility of dealing with Iraq's foreign debt At And for the Ministry of Finance and the Central Bank of Iraq exclusively.

The order drawn لايحق that any individual or government to carry out any settlement or enter into agreements or negotiations or understanding outside of the programme, which is administered by the Ministry of Finance and the Central Bank of Iraq.

-- August 24, 2006 3:05 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Steve:

No other info from the Dinar dealer. To his credit he was not overbearing. I will purchase from him. Though he is dealer, I can readily believe a RV rate of $.10 rather than a $.68 to $1.12. The Iraqi Economy could not handle an RV this high.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 24, 2006 5:29 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Prisoners freed - Sadr supporters
Posted: 24-08-2006

Meanwhile, as part of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's reconciliation efforts, U.S. and Iraqi authorities have been releasing prisoners, and they freed 55 people in Baghdad on Thursday. The prisoners, who were freed in the city's central bus station, chanted slogans supporting Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.
http://www.albawaba.com/en/news/202310

-- August 24, 2006 6:13 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Countering Counterfeit Cops in Iraq

August 24, 2006: In an effort to stop criminals from impersonating police, the U.S. helped Iraq develop a new uniform for the national police, and related paramilitary forces. The Iraqi police version will have Iraqi police patches and badges on it, and is more difficult to counterfeit than the old, more traditional, uniform.

There is also a problem with real police moonlighting as criminals or terrorists (usually death squads going after former Saddam operatives, and Sunni Arabs in general). Other methods are being used to shut down the rogue cops.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htpara/articles/20060824.aspx

-- August 24, 2006 6:33 PM ∞

---

ELVIS wrote:

I HAVE BEEN IN A COMA FOR 10 MONTHS. I JUST CAME OUT TWO WEEKS AGO I'M LEARNING HOW TO WALK,TALK AGAIN. AFTER ALL THIS TIME I JUST WENT ON MY COMPUTOR. WHAT HAPPEN TO THIS BOARD. IT CHANGED SO MUCH MOST OF IT IS RELIGION AND READING OF THE BIBLE. SOME OF THIS HOLY ROLLER STUF IS CRAZY. I KNOW A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE AGREE WITH ME . LETS HEAR FROM YOU ALL. WHAT HAPPEN TO OUTLAW,BOB, BILL, MIKE AND THE REST OF THE GANG. I HOPE TO GET BACK INTO ENTERTAININGS SOON. ELVIS

-- August 24, 2006 6:43 PM ∞

---

Robert wrote:

Hey Sara,

Some good points, but "au contraire": the same can be said for the egg, as well.

Without the egg(strong viable Iraqi economy), the chicken (RV)would only exist in a single, sterile, impotent form, since the egg (strong viable, Iraqi economy) would not be there to further create the conditions needed to MULTIPLY the WORTH (future generations)of the single, sterile, impotent chicken. #:>) In other words, you can have an RV, but without the strong viable Iraqi economy, it could be an impotent one, possibly less than it is currently valued, thereby making it better if the chicken (RV) hadn't existed at all. LOL So, you see, that the egg MUST COME FIRST :) LOL LOL LOL

-- August 24, 2006 7:17 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

ELVIS;

Feel free to CONTRIBUTE to the topic at hand.. Dinar.
As many posts as you wish to.
We would certainly like to hear all the wisdom you have.
Or is this only a one way street..
you receiving.. and ridiculing if it doesn't measure up..
and the rest of us all contributing?
For a person named after a true PERFORMER (Elvis)..
We sure would like to see a performance from you which measures at such a superstar status.

Sara.

-- August 24, 2006 8:04 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Examine the files of inflation, debt and foreign investment
Baghdad / justice.
Met with the Vice-President, Dr. Adel Abdel Mahdi Central Bank Governor Dr Sinan Shabibi

During the meeting, discussion of .... the possibility of raising the value of the Iraqi dinar ... The rise in the value of parents t rise through reliance on that the country can provide the quantity of foreign currency through exports, increase exports and reduce debt is the result of the economy, which raises the value of the dinar.

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aladala.net%2Fhome%2F&langpair=ar%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

This article speaks about the meeting between Mahdi and Shabibi and their discussion on raising the value of the Dinar. It is not easy to get to.. click on the guy with glasses.. his MORE post.. then on the left of that next page, click there.

I'd give the board more (and yes, there is more).. but.. why should I when ridicule is all I get for my hard efforts? You will see when it happens.

Sara.

-- August 24, 2006 8:17 PM ∞

---

Robert wrote:

Sara,
Surely, you didn't think that I was ridiculing you with my last post, did you?

I was simply posting in-kind humor regarding our discussion about the RV. It was, in NO way, meant to be a slight toward you.

If Elvis and others don't like what they are reading, let them go somewhere else (like Carl said).

Here is my opinion, Elvis: I believe that Sara has the right to say whatever she wants to say on this board. Further, I would venture to say that the VAST MAJORITY think the same. So, if you don't like what is going on, may I suggest that you sashay, twist or whatever you do, and go on over to another forum that you can relate to. And, as far as Outlaw, Michael and all the others: I am sure that they would agree with me and the vast majority of the other members on this board regarding Sara.
Sara, You go girl.

-- August 24, 2006 8:56 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Thanks, Robert.

No, I didn't take your humor wrong.. thank you.
I was just feeling a bit.. intimidated by the newest blockhead.

I have been tracking down information and believe I have found the first printed article saying that the FI laws have been passed! :)

I came here to post it.. it isn't on any other Dinar site.. and, well, I read ELVIS' post and thought.. why do it? It will turn up when someone else finds it and posts it, too. I have now given it to three or four people in Private Messages, so it will filter out.

So... we will see. But things look good for Iraq, IMO. :)

Sara.

-- August 24, 2006 10:00 PM ∞

---

Smooter wrote:

Sara,

The reproach of a fool is an honor. The Word of our God will not return void unto itself. The salvation we glory in is an offense to those that will not to believe. The job of transforming death to life is the Lord's and He has decreed for believers to be involved in this by speaking His Word in spirit and in truth. He is using you and consequently the unbelieving world is mocking you as they mocked the cross and the Lamb of God nailed there on Golgotha's hill. I pray for you. Please pray for me.

Smooter

-- August 24, 2006 10:44 PM ∞

---

C1JIM wrote:

So, who thinks we will have an RV by the end of this month? By end of the year? Sometime next year?

-- August 25, 2006 3:08 AM ∞

---

Terri wrote:

Come on, Sarah, how about the link to the passing of the investment law...

-- August 25, 2006 9:16 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Looks good! This article indicates the FIL has not been passed.

==========================================================================

Oil majors maneuver for prime position in Iraq
By Peg Mackey

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LONDON, 25 August 2006 (Reuters)
The world's top oil companies are maneuvering intently to win a stake in their oilfield of choice when Iraq finally opens to multibillion dollar investment.

From a safe distance, multinationals are poring over data from Iraq's most promising oilfields and some of its older workhorses to gain the edge when the bidding begins.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php?refid=DH-S-25-08-2006&article=10101

-- August 25, 2006 10:11 AM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

Sara and All--

Sara, I am sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you on your last question to me on the board. I was having computer problems and got knocked off of the internet. I was still on dial up until just recently.

You asked me about General Georges Sada's book entitled Saddam's Secrets (that I have recently completed reading) and what did it have to say about the Iraq dinar?.

One of his comments was that one of Saddam's son's, Uday, would play with the value of the currency in Iraq, in order to make some more money for themselves.

For example, Uday would buy up all USA dollarshe could get his hands on. He bought them from banks, businesses, and exchange services, and he would keep them out of circulation so that the value of the USA dollar would rise to anywhere from five hundred to two thousand dinars per dollar.

--Before long the people would panic, and they would start bringing all their money to the bank, and they would exchange thousands, even millions, of dollars so that they wouldn't lose the value of their cash. But as soon as this happened, Uday would dump all of those dollars back on the market, buying millions of dinars and virtually bankrupting everyone who had any money at risk. (pg 210).

He states "For their own personal profit, these men were willing to to throw the entire Iraqi economy into turmoil. Today, thanks to the new administration and systems put into place by the Americans, the dollar is worth 1450 dinars, and it's not moving at all. This gives our currency great stability. People aren't worried anymore, and they all know just how much money thy have. In the new government, no one is playing with the currency for profit. If you want dinars, you can get dinars. If you want dollars or English pounds, you can have those too. This has been excellent for Iraq. But under Saddam, we were never secure. We never knew if we could survive from one day to the next. Just imagine what kind of life it was, trying to survive under those conditions." (pg 210).

General Georges Sada went on to describe how the Baath Party (built on socialist idea) would select less qualified individuals to fill jobs for which they had very little skills.

--Examples given by him:

1.) A janitor (being a party leader) at a medical school was more important to please than a medical student studying to pass his exams. Even if the Dean of Academics stated a student passed; the party member (in this case, the janitor could decide) whether a student would become a doctor.

2. Unqualified pilots were placed in the airforce because of being a party member.

An example cited: a local ice maker was given the job of 4 star general because of being a faithful to the party.

**General Georges is stating that corruption was rewarded and sometimes necessary to survive under Saddam.

**Being a member of the party (and General Georges was not a member) was necessary to be promoted and to get a solid wage from the government under Saddam.

--General Georges was a two star general, when the party required he retire from military service because of his lack of party membership.

--General Georges earned his way up the ranks due to hard work and skills developed in flying fighter aircraft.

I am going to type a section of his book entitled "Taking a Demotion" so that you all can get the blend of what he is saying about the dinar under Saddam. (Starts pg. 215 and onward).

The system in Iraq was so corrupt the even acts of benevolence had diastrous effects. Poor and incompentent leadership combined with Saddam's military adventurism and confiscation of our national treasure had been driving the nation into deep financial trouble for years.

--But when sanctions began in the mid 1990's, the economy suddenly went int freefall. When Saddam saw what was happening, he decided to intervene by giving money to party members so they could survive in those difficult times. Of course, he controlled all the oil revenues and the entire wealth of the nation, and he could use it however he pleased. So he created a bonus program, the Makrama, meaning "the gift of the president."

Originally this was mainly a way for Saddam to solidify his power base, but before long it became a necessity for millions of Iraqis.

--Inflation was eating us alive, and there was no way to increase salaries enough to make up for the difference.

But consider what happened to those like me who weren't party members. In the late 1980's, my salary as an air force general was 1,000 dinars per month, which was about $3000.00 USA Dollars--beacuse the dinar was worth 3 american dollars. That was a good salary in Iraq, but in 1995 when inflation went so high, 3,000 Iraqi dinars was only worth about one american dollar. This meant that my salary, which had been worth $3,000, was suddenly worth just 30 cents.

On paper, salaries continued to increase, and by 1998 a general's salary was shown at 80,000 dinars per month--eighty times my salary a decade earlier--but in reality it was the equivalent of only $40.00 USA Dollars, and no one could live on that.

--If you were a loyal party member, you would receive "the gift of the president," which could vary from a half million to a million and a half dinars per household. So while you were receiving just $40.00 usa dollars in your pay envelope each month, "the gift" could come to $2,000 to $3,000 or more every month.

So what did this mean to the country? It meant that suddenly the people's loyalty was no longer to the government or to the military or to their employer's but to Saddam Hussein, who held their lives, their welfare, and their future in his hands.

--The "gift of the president" could be ten to twenty times the amount of your salary, and it varied based on your position and rank. If your rant increased, the gift also increased, and it could reach as high as 10 million dinars every month, which was about $5000. usa dollars.

Ultimately, this meant that Saddam had made Iraq, its industry, its oil, and everything else, very small in the hearts of the people; but he had made himself bigger than Iraq beacause he was the gracious benefactor who was giving the people such wonderful gifts. And this is why people who supported the Baath Pary were so loyal to Saddam after the war. And most of them had never considered that this was not how it was suppose to be.

Imagine the devastating impact this had on the nation. Inflation was destroying us and sanctions were just as bad, but Saddam was able to solve the problem by giving his people "the gift". Thus, by his generosity, he restored what had been lost because of inflation. Party members were doing very well, but the rest of us had no alternative but to be quiet and wait.

This also meant that non-party members had to begin selling off personal items--cars, clothes, televisions, furniture, even the good wooden doors inside our homes--just to be able to buy food to eat. We sold everything we could live without and many things we couldn't. Some high-ranking officers who had beautiful chairs, lamps, light fixtures, and fans in their homes had to sell all of it, and in some cases they even had to sell the large ornate doors on the outside of their homes and replace them with plywood or simple sheets of tin.

--All of this started in the 1990's according to General Georges after Saddam invaded Kuwait. That's when things rally started to go downhill for us. The lucky ones were those who had family living abroad, and fortunately I was one of them. My son and his family were living in Europe, where he had his medical practice. He wasn't a wealthy man, but he was able to send us just one hundred dollars a month, that was an incredible blessing, because it was a great deal of money for us. And that was the only way we managed to have anything like a normal life.

Those who had no family abroad and who had no other means of earning money were in terrible shape at that time, especially the women. For some of these women, the only way to survive was to sell themselves to men who were Baath Party members and who could pay for their services.

Little by little,corruption began eating its way into every field and profession. The military was being run by men who were corrupt and, in many cases, incompetent. This meant, in turn, that the army was not able to defend the nation. The good officers were often forced to take lower-level jobs, or they were simply forced to leave the military altogether. The military commanders would keep non-party members if there was no one else to replace them; but as soon as they found a party man who could do the job reasonably well, they would push the non-party man out the door and release him.

--The Baath Party modeled itself on the Communist Party of Russia. (pg 217).

What I read on the book, according to General Georges Sada, Saddam also modeled himself after Stalin. This gives you the flavor of what happened in Iraq with its people and the economy.

--Laura

-- August 25, 2006 10:42 AM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

Please forgive the many typo's that I noticed I posted. I was anxious to get this information posted and neglected to read over the material first. Thanks, Laura

-- August 25, 2006 10:53 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

The zero loop, mentioned in that report, with that finance minister is an old thing.

The finance minister mentioned, have been since arrested, and the zero loop sems dead in the water.

After this caracter was arrested, demoted and removed, the zero loop argument was over, I have not seen any information or data on that subject, from a credible source, since.

-- August 25, 2006 11:12 AM ∞

---

Anonymous wrote:

Laura Parker,

yuOURRE Sroorry (oops ) frpr yUour typos e, wlelll that hvave to be on yhour khnees tehn.

-- August 25, 2006 11:17 AM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

Anonymous,

Judging from what's been taking place on this forum, I don't think, being on my knees is where I want to be. Folks are liable to behead me!!! OOPS!!! AND THEN WHERE WOULD I BE! --LAURA

-- August 25, 2006 11:32 AM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Sara, Smooter, Carl and anyone else this pertains too:

After reading Smoother's last comment, I had to jump in and make this comment...

First of all, I haven't seen anyone on this site tell anyone NOT to preach the word of God, just to take it to another forum designed for that perticular discussion. Smooter has taken it to a higher level. (I believe he way saying that this was an example of non-belivers trying to stop the word of God... like we are Satin or something... give me a break and grow-up!) I must admit that the responce that I have seen from requests to take off topic discussions elsewhere, have been simular to the type of responce that one gets from a smoker who feels he or she has the right to inflict their habit onto others around them. Non smokers in that situtation, are persons who are forced to participate in something that they choose not to participate in. The non-smoker has no rights in the eyes of the smoker. The smoker feels that the non-smoker is trying to prohibit the rights of the smoker to smoke... in reality, non-smokers couldn't care less how the smoker lives their life as long as they are considerate to others around them, and to take their business to a more appropate place that won't "forcefully" inflict that situtation onto non-participants.

That also pertains to this topic. I am a religious person, but my beliefs are like everyone's... different in many ways... every persons beliefs are a direct result of the enviroment that they were raised in... so everyones beliefs will be different. Religion, Sexual preferences,Politics, Abortion, Civil Rights, Etc...These types of discussions usually always end-up in participants getting their feelings hurt because of differences in beliefs and should be avoided in all public forums if possible.

Everyone is aware that God wants all belivers to preach his word... when the Dinar hits... build a Church and persue that. Until then, please respect others and take off topic discussions to another forum... phone, letters, e-mails, blogs, etc...

I might be wrong, but; I believe that when Kevin authored this page on his Blog, it was intended for the discussion of Dinar as stated in it's name... "Iraqi Dinar Discussion". Kevin, Please correct me if I'm wrong!

Outlaw

-- August 25, 2006 11:45 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Azheart may have found a second article saying the FI Laws have passed..

http://www.aboutdinar.com/viewtopic.php?p=19492&highlight=#19492

-- August 25, 2006 12:20 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Smooter…..…I find your following remarks both condescending and very offensive. Surely you must realize that all people don’t believe in God in the same manner that you do. God came into me at an early age and has been true to me ever since. It seems that by calling other people fools, mockers and non-believers you are judging them and I don’t believe one person should do that to another person. To come on this forum and state your religious belief is OK, but to condemn and judge other people for doing the same is just not right. My God is a personal God and has always guided me along my journey and always kept me on a good path and sent me down the right fork of the road.

I believe you should retract your insults to the forum!!

===================================
Smooter wrote:
Sara,
The reproach of a fool is an honor. The Word of our God will not return void unto itself. The salvation we glory in is an offense to those that will not to believe. The job of transforming death to life is the Lord's and He has decreed for believers to be involved in this by speaking His Word in spirit and in truth. He is using you and consequently the unbelieving world is mocking you as they mocked the cross and the Lamb of God nailed there on Golgotha's hill. I pray for you. Please pray for me.
Smooter
-- August 24, 2006 10:44 PM ∞

-- August 25, 2006 12:38 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Smooter - I did pray for you. I understand your words are meant in kindness and well-meant, even if it 'of necessity' will be misconstrued as unkind and evil in intent.

Terri - I gave one, Azheart's.

Laura Parker - thanks so much for that very insightful post. The typos were practically unnoticeable.. and the info very appreciated. Please do not let typos stop such great posting. I found it very informative.. it does give you a glimpse into what evil the poor Iraqis had to live under. I sure appreciated it very much! :)

Outlaw - How come we don't get the same responses against the posts about blow up dolls and sci-fi? No one tells people to shut up and stop talking about that.. ??

When the board gets boring and nothing is being posted.. if someone asks more serious questions and we get off target in our boredom, if you want Dinar discussion, just jump in and initiate it! Like I said to Elvis - bring in articles, comment on them, CONTRIBUTE. But if it is boring and slow and someone wishes to discuss the origin of the universe.. why censor it? And you have the intelligence to simply skip the posts you dislike, you know. No one is forcing you to "inhale" any smoke from such posts.. just scroll down.. real easy. So it isn't like smoking where you have to be exposed to it even if you dislike it.. Nor is there any potential of evil effects from being accidentally exposed to secondhand smoke.. you won't get cancer from an off topic post.. you don't even have to read it. The discussion only has the power to '"forcefully" inflict itself upon non-participants' if you HAVE TO read it, and you don't. Unread words don't inflict anything. Simply skip my posts and those of the other people who are jawing about sci-fi, physics, String theory, Quantum Mechanics or religion.. simple solution, no harm done. We get to jaw about our interests in the lull.. which makes this forum more friendly and like family than most.. and you are not inconvenienced except for having to scroll past a few posts. Just consider it an exercise in politeness for when you are in a room of people all talking to one another and are bored by what you are hearing. Consider the skipping of a post just like choosing to leave a group and go get a drink from the refreshment table..

When it gets slow, we talk other things.. that is life.. and religion is part of life for some people, but you must admit, once we have something Dinar to talk on.. we do get back to the topic at hand. Hopefully this won't go on too much longer and the need for a blog on Dinar and its RV will no longer have to exist.. and you can have a new life to do what you will.

Sara.

-- August 25, 2006 1:06 PM ∞

---

elvis wrote:

i did not mend to hurt anyones feelings. IT HAS BEEN A VERY LONG TIME SINCE I BEEN ON THIS SITE.IT TAKES A VERY LONG TIME JUST TO TYPE THIS. I'M LEARNING ALL OVER AGAIN TO USE MY HANDS AND WALK. I LOST ALOT MEMORY IHAD TO GO OVER MY NOTES FROM A YEAR AGO ON THIS SITE.I HAVE ALOT OF DINARS I WANT TO ORDER ANOTHER MILLION SHOULD I TRY AND GET SMALLER BILLS EVERY THING I HAVE NOW IS 25000 DINARS FROM WHICH I RECEIVE FROM SAFEDINAR .COM I REALLY THINK THE DINAR IS GOING TO GO UP IN A FEW MONTHS. ELVIS

-- August 25, 2006 1:34 PM ∞

---

Robert wrote:

Hey Outlaw,

You and I have agreed on many things, but I have to disagree with you regarding your last post. I agree with Sara, when she says that there is all kind of talk going on here. I was talking to Roger the other day about mutant Arabs making feedstock out of the rest of the world population. Yes, that was definitely off the dinar subject, but did Kevin ban us because of it? I think that answers your question. If Kevin didn't want us to talk about anything else, he would've banned us ALL, years ago.

I guess that this is just one thing that we will have to agree to disagree on, bud - nothing personal.

-- August 25, 2006 2:26 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Elvis;

I am so sorry to hear you are having to learn to use your hands and walk again, and that typing is a chore for you to do.
I wish you the very best in this Dinar venture.
If Mahdi and Shabibi are talking the possibility of raising the value of the Iraqi dinar ( http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#123606 )
then it may indeed be soon that we see a positive change in the value of the Iraqi Dinar. :)

Sara.

-- August 25, 2006 2:50 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Sara and Elvis:

Regardless of the whether the FI Laws have passed. Without being repetitive Iraq has a long way to go before an RV can happen. Iraq must have a functioning economy and something driving that economy.

Once the oil starts pumping and the violence ends then I think we can talk about an RV.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 25, 2006 3:17 PM ∞

---

Smooter wrote:

Okie,

No retraction and no defense.

Smooter

-- August 25, 2006 3:49 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Okie, any way to get a listing of the stocks available for investment on ISX? I'm probably going to throw in about 3 mil or so and let it ride. I've done dumber things in my life......believe it or not.

-- August 25, 2006 6:06 PM ∞

---

Robert wrote:

Elvis,

Glad to hear that you are recovering. It must be hard. Sorry that I came across pretty harsh in my earlier post, but it was kinda' hard to see where you were coming from in your first post-whether you came on the forum to bash or what. Hope your recovery continues, and you can be back to one-hundred per cent real soon.

-- August 25, 2006 6:47 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Steve.....

Try these two sites for ISX info. Warka has a link also but right now it's not active on their new site.

http://www.isx-aman.com/
http://www.isx-data.com/

-- August 25, 2006 7:08 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Scooter...oops I mean smooter...

No problem....your non-response speaks volumes about you anyway.....

-- August 25, 2006 7:16 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Hi all,

Haven't got much time lately, will try to catch the wave again.

Whatawegot??

I've been scrolling back quite a bit, but nothing really of substance have surfaced, other than we're trying to tell each other to behave.

As I'm constantly are trying to look smart and always get away with it, (well, you didnt noticed it did you), sometimes it's a bit embarrasing to ask a very simple question.

Some are using some abbreviations that I dont know of.

I know RV means Recreational Vehicle, but what does ISX mean?

FI laws, Flies Incubator?

No, on a serious note, anyone have a full set of all these abbreviations, and a little bit of willingness to show me.

HSBC? IED? AOL? M&M? BDSM?

-- August 25, 2006 7:46 PM ∞

---

Anonymous wrote:

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&langpair=ar%7Cen&u=http://www.aladala.net/home/modules.php%3Fname%3DNews%26file%3Darticle%26sid%3D1494

-- August 25, 2006 8:00 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Elvis,

Hi, you must have been here in the past. You say you've been in coma for quite some time, wow, well, you're out if it now , and hey welcome to the world again.

You dont have to answer this if you dont want to, is it a sickness of some kind, or did you have an accident?

I hope it was not something self induced in order to avoid the military draft, because it would have been a bummer, to wake up, and at that time, find out that we do no longer have the draft since many many years back.

Cheer up buddy, I wish you well, and, that you will do a full recovery.

You'll be back in sky diving and rock climbing in no time.

-- August 25, 2006 8:00 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Rob N,

No respectfully disagree, we have been there many times.

Iraq doesnt have to be a perfect world before they can RV. It's almost a must that they HAVE to RV before they are letting in the investment companies, (read, The Big Oil Companies).

The value of the Dinar is inherently much higher than it is held right now, and they have a galloping inflation.

The Iraq man need THINGS right now, he can't buy squat with his Dinars. Almost nothing is produced in Iraq, and anything that he needs, luxury item or neccesities, doesnt matter, is out of reach for him.

He must get it from outside of Iraq, but have to come with big bundles of close to worthless money.

Bundles that he have to work hard to get.

Just in order to get anything going, it's almost a crime that they have held the Dinars so low for so long of a time.

I dont know all the inns and outs of that country, but I have understood that with corruption also comes incompetence.

There have been one big shakedown of both incompetent and corrupt officials, recently, (the finance minister was in there)

The Iraq institutions, are getting education abroad, plus are getting on site guidance, so sane and sound decisions must come, and corrupt and incompetent decisions will thus be spotted.

(ofcourse one incompetent person can always hold it's own for dome time, but not for long, unfortunately for Iraq, it happened to be a finance minister that had the financial knowledge of a duck, that was riding in the sunshine for a while.)

The Dinar is a long term investment, have been commented upon over and over, but the oxymoron in this, is that we all want our investment NOW, and we want our billions while we still are alive.

When the big ones are moving in, yes you are right, thats when you will see some really serious change, some really effective investment, and some really movement on the unemployment line.

If the neighbour Iran will not be too much of a trouble, it will go just fine in Iraq.

Read today, Israel just closed the deal and are taking possesion of two subs capable of carrying nukes.

Israel is known to have two missile systems, both capable of carrying a nuke warhead to Iran. Both buried and constructed to survive an initial nuke strike. That makes Israel fully capable of full nuke retaliation, plus with the two subs today, Israel have alltogether five nuke capable subs. Could go to any Gulf region. Also Israel have never acknowledged it have nuclear warheads, but it's believed Israel have one of the worlds highest stockpile of those buggers.

Hope some kind of sense will come to the Iranian Mullas.

Reports on the clampdown on security in Baghdad, is now at a level of caucious optimism. Shops are opening up.

Some kind of confusion of what Democracy is, might very well be prevalent over there as well. (well, in the US we have some confusion all the time on that point).

There is representative and direct democracy.

A big country with millions of people can't by practical purposes have the population vote on any and all issue, so the people send their representatives, and they do the dealing for them.

Smaller communities can have Direct Democracy, all their members voting on all the issues, if the meeting is not held too often.

In Iraq, they have not got the idea yet, that they have representative democracy, and instead have to have any and all issue "cleared" with any mulla or clan leader that rise their voice, and they do that often.

To go back to the RV and oil pumps.

They are related but they are not the same thing.

You can not have HP without Torque, but you can have Torque without HP ( cartalk, if we get into a debate about that I'll be happy to show how).

With all the timedelays, incompetence and corruption, in this Iraq issue, ( and I must say when it comes to incompetence, the Iraqis are not alone on the field), missed opportunities, and again missed opportunities, and again no action, no action. The Iraq goverment is in such a dire situation that alternatives are not avaliabale, few roads , small unpaved animal tracks at best are avaliable.

The ONLY hard paved, four lane, road out of this, is an RV.

I would not cut and run in fear of Iran, when the RV happens.

I do believe that Iran will influence, but will in the long run not set the destiny of Iraq.

Fields doors and opportunities are closing faster and faster for Iran, while Iraq, the doors are opening, fields are widened and the opportunities are coming floating in on both rivers in Iraq.

That is the condition of those both countries.

Iran is about in it's prime right now, Iraq, is right at the bottom, perhaps just above it.

Therefore Irans empire is closing, losing and on a downtrend, while Iraq have a splendid future, but have a dirty face.

Two countries, side by side, one country fuctioning, and one not. For the functioning society, the dors are closing and for the dysfunctional country, all help is given, and all kind of crutches are given.

If there will be a conflict with Iran, I do believe Iraq will be affected only during the time the conflict takes place, I doubt Iran even if they want to , will invade Iraq. Either way, Iran want to get to Israel first thing, and the US might even be a spectator, while the Iran and Israel nuces each other.

Horrible scenario, but all in all, Iraq would be too much of a country to try to hold onto, and there is really no reason for Iran to do it either.

So from all these horror pictures some would like to paint for me when it comes to Iraq's vunerability with regards to Iran, I cant see that Iraq is more threatened by Iran, than Kuwait, Saud Arabia or Dubai, or Jordan.

Sable rattling, and show of force, will always in time give way to whealing and dealing.

I think they are looking very hard righ now in Iraq, not how, but when to RV. They know thay have to do it. They know that they cant dally around too much longer.

-- August 25, 2006 9:27 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Outlaw:
Glad to see ya back on board...

-- August 25, 2006 10:18 PM ∞

---

C1Jim wrote:

I had thought by now we would all be rich. At least the zero lop looks like it is not going to happen. I wonder how much longer it will be. Hopefully not too much longer.

-- August 26, 2006 4:08 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Hello everyone,

Spent the last week out looking around this hell hole of a country. Hell hole as in the temperture. Right now it is 130 and this is one of the cooler days in the last week.

Sorry but I know nothing more about the Dinar then I knew last week, except that I got to see that prices are through the roof. May be a good sign for us, but really sucks for the common people. Got to talk to lots of locals but the only thing they said about the money was about the cost of everything and how the government needs to do something. Been catching up on news and posts for the last couple of hours. You have all been very, very busy. Will comment later.

Right now to bed, and hope that I don't dream about riding around in a HMVEE, LMTV, or anything else thats up-armored for a while. These roads over here will kill you. Can someone please find my kidneys. I think I lost them a couple of hundred miles back at the last Tire Check!!

Later, Lance

-- August 26, 2006 6:48 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

To All:

If you were in the group to setup a peace keeping force in Lebanon...would you have agreed to the following....

1. Allow France to head it up ?
2. Allow the Lebanon Government to have control over where the UN soldiers will be placed?
3. Place restrictions on the UN soldiers so they can not do their job effectively ?

Note: Its seems the little agreement that Condi Rice and the rest of the EU leaders cooked up to fool the world in believing they are being strong is the following....

Give France command over the entire UN Peacekeepers.(we need to put them on the other side with Hezballoh...I had rather have them in front of my laser sight...than behind)

Prevent the UN soldiers from searching for weapons going into restricted areas by preventing them from opening trunks of cars, checking underneath the canvas of a truck going through a checkpoint, opening back doors of cargo containers to look for weapons.....(I am sure the Hezballoh soldiers are shaking about going through that checkpoint)

They have one job to observe only....cannot prevent, cannot stop any illegal activity, cannot shoot unless in self defense, cannot arrest,...(UN Soldiers comments during a check point stop....Please Stop...you know you are violating Condi's Law....Why...Why...are you making me mad....I am going to tell....you are going to be in trouble...I bet you are going to get some time outs for this....stop it now....I mean it this time....you come back here...CONDIiiiiiii....Condiiiiii...see I told ya....I'm telling RIGHT NOW....)

Allowed the Lebanonese Government to restrict where the UN troops are placed. Thus...the first thing the Lebanonese government did was stop the UN from placing soldiers along the Syria border to watch for rockets and other arms crossing into Lebanon from Syria...NOW!
that is a Government that really wants to control Hezballoh...

This whole little cooked up watchdog senario does nothing but leave Israel open to more weapons being stock piled on their border...the facts are give several different options here ....George Bush sold out Israel for whatever reason... Condi Rice does not have a clue what she is doing......George directed Condi to accept such ridiculous agreements...
If that is the case he is no longer worthy of being our President...

George TALKS about being tough on Terrorist..but his actions indicate otherwise. He has deliberately for political gain of his party, refused to close our Southern border and sections of the Northern border...otherwords...the republican party is more important than you....a Citizen of America...I say this sadly as I voted for him twice...

I believe a democrat would be no better...

-- August 26, 2006 7:49 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Hardline Sunni cleric willing to meet
Friday, August 25, 2006
By OMAR SINAN - AP

CAIRO, Egypt -- A prominent hardline Iraqi Sunni cleric said Friday he was willing to meet with top Shiite religious leaders to end sectarian violence and help move Iraq out of its internal crisis.

"We are ready to meet anybody who is sincere, and desires good things for Iraq and for Iraqis, in particular the supreme religious leadership in Iraq," Harith al-Dhari, leader of the Association of Muslim Scholars, said on Al-Jazeera television.

By supreme religious leadership, al-Dhari was apparently referring to Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, Iraq's most prominent Shiite cleric.

"Making concessions today is better than being stubborn and watching the country go down the drain," al-Mutlaq told The Associated Press by telephone from Amman.

"We said before that everybody should make concessions," he added. "I believe that this initiative deserves to be considered and accepted by the other party. This compromise is also a sacrifice. Iraqis and Iraq need to stop the bloodshed."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1107AP_Iraq_Sunnis_Shiites.html

-- August 26, 2006 8:27 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

WHAT THA....

The other day I had to undergo a Military Physical for the Coast Guard.
The Physical indicated my Triglicerides were out of proportion....so in order to get my blood back in line the flight surgeon prescribed a medication called...GEMFIBROZIL..

This should make you healthy in about 3 months...she stated...

THEN I TOOK IT UPON MYSELF TO RESEARCH THE SIDE EFFECTS...

This medication can cause...
Stomach pains and cramps
Change your taste buds
Create numbness and tingling in your hands and feet
Blurring Vision has been reported numerous times
DECREASED SEXUAL DESIRE
DECREASED SEXUAL ABILITY
Bouts of Depression
Bouts of Sore Throat
Can be the cause of severe muscle damage which if untreated may lead to a fatal condition called rhabdomyolysis
Bouts of fever
May turn your eyes and skin yellow
Turns urine dark red (now talk about snow painting with color)
Change is urine discharge
Easy bruising
Frequent Itching
Can cause Gallstones resulting in GallBladder Surgery
May result in body swelling
Persistent nausea and frequent vomiting
Persistent unusual tiredness
May create respiritory diease causing problems in breathing
Bouts of Rashes
Can cause serious kidney problems leading to dialysis
Dizziness resulting in interfering with driving or operating machinery

Put that above information with this...

Last year in the USA around 15,000 people died of being Gunshot...
Last year in the USA around 122,000 people died from improper treatment from doctors

Now the question is ....

What do I want to do......MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?

-- August 26, 2006 9:08 AM ∞

---

Terri wrote:

Good morning everyone. Guys, I have a sincere question. First, let me assure you that although I don't post much, I check this site at LEAST twice each and every day...this forum is my lifeline to the world of dinars! LOL, I feel like I know most of you personally...

Here's my question/problem: I'm having trouble finding a bank (hopefully within driving distance) that will exchange foreign currency in unlimited amounts. I initially thought BoA would, so I opened an account with them, JUST TO BE READY... However, it turns out that, from what I was told, they will only exchange small amounts per transaction - that won't work!

Please, can anyone tell me what bank to go to, who to call, or how to find out? I live just south of Houston... Any and all information will be sincerely appreciated!!!

Thanks everyone! Keep up the posting, I find them enjoyable and VERY informative!

-- August 26, 2006 9:23 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Terri:
I would not worry about it at this time...there are still too many pond alligators we have to swim pass, before we can reach the dinar exchange shore..
When the dinar goes on the foreign exchange then is the time to start looking....
I like the way you think thou...

-- August 26, 2006 9:41 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

What people believe dictates their policy. I think the mentality of people makes a difference. Those who are expecting there to be war, who are armed and wanting war or who are resigned there will be a war.. are far more likely to get it than those who are seeking peaceful resolution to their problems. The last article I posted is a good sign. A Prominent Sunni wishing to make concessions in order to usher in peace. That is wonderful, positive news! :)

You will note that those in Iran who are expecting the imminent return of their messiah are not very likely to lay down arms. That is, those with a religious predilection toward war are very, very stubborn in prosecuting that war for their religious purposes. I wanted to bring up the slant of the Christian religious view on this Middle East crisis because it dictates how Christians believe, pray and act. Very often, if a people EXPECTS defeat (because Armageddon is about to happen and we are certainly going to lose, for instance) they will get it. I have noted that EVERY time Israel becomes involved, those who believe the Bible is a predictive book of prophecy eagerly check its pages to find out if we are seeing it come true in our time. As one person put it, "Because God exists outside our space-time domain, He is able to see, in effect, the beginning and the end of our time domain simultaneously. Consequently, the Bible authenticates that its message is of extra-dimensional origin through predictive prophecy."

I agree that the Bible is a book filled with the fulfillment of predicted prophecies. It has authenticated its divine origin through predicting events and then fulfilling them over and over and over. However, even though the Bible is filled with predictive prophecy, the PREDICTIONS of Jesus being the Messiah were not seen to be so until after the fact.

Luk 18:31 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished.
Luk 18:32 For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon.
Luk 18:33 They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again."
Luk 18:34 But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.

Here is Jesus taking aside His disciples and explaining His death and resurrection, but they did not understand what He said because it was HIDDEN from them. He said it was so that, "all things that are written by the prophets" would be accomplished. But they missed it entirely.

Many times, those who claim to know prophecy from the Bible only see what it was saying after the fact, IMO. I have watched the doomsday sayers say we are in the endtimes and Jesus is coming back many, many times. I watched them predict the end and "prove" it by Scriptures in other world event situations. None of them ever came true.

It seems to me that, although the BIBLE ITSELF is indeed a Supernatural book and the fulfillment of the prophecies attest to its authenticity.. mankind has about as much luck predicting WHEN the prophecies will be fulfilled as we have seen in predicting a revaluation of the Dinar.

Will it happen? Will the "future" prophecies of the Bible be fulfilled? Yes. But, like the Dinar.. the question is WHEN.

-- August 26, 2006 9:41 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

When Christians tell me this is the end of all things and we are about to see Jesus come back.. that all we can expect for the Middle East is Armageddon, death and destruction (much like the Iranian view of chaos before their messiah comes) I point them to the other prophecies which are opposed to that position. You cannot just take some Scriptures you like and ignore the other ones at your leisure. They could be right.. but then again, they could be wrong. For instance.. When, exactly.. will "Egypt" become the people of God.. and "Assyria" (parts of Iraq) "God's people?

Isa 19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
Isa 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
Isa 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

If Jesus is about to come back and end the space time continuum.. when do these words happen? For surely Egypt has never been as a people the people of the faith of the Bible.. nor Assyria (near to and parts of Babylon/Iraq) the work of God's hands? Unless.. this is about to happen now with God working a work in that land to call those people to Himself?

Just a quick backgrounder.. remember that Saddam titled himself as a second Nebuchadnezzar? That land was occupied by the Assyrians:

Quote:
"The Assyrians, after they finally broke free of the Mitanni, were the next major power to assert themselves on Mesopotamia. After defeating and virtually annexing Mitanni, the Assyrians challenged Babylonia. They weakened Babylonia so much that the Kassite Dynasty fell from power; the Assyrians virtually came to control Babylonia, until revolts in turn deposed them and set up a new dynasty, known as the Second Dynasty of Isin. Nebuchadnezzar I (Nabu-kudurri-usur; c. 1119 BC-c. 1098 BC) is the best known ruler from this dynasty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Iraq#Babylonians.2C_Mitanni.2C_and_Assyrians

Quote:
Assyria was a province of the Roman Empire, roughly situated in modern-day northern Iraq.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria_%28Roman_province%29

-- August 26, 2006 9:43 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Quote:
"Assyriology is the historical and archaeological study of ancient Mesopotamia. The field covers not just Assyria but also that nation's eventual conqueror, Babylonia ... "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyriology

Quote:
Babylonia, named for its capital city, Babylon, was an ancient state in the south part of Mesopotamia (in modern Iraq) , combining the territories of Sumer and Akkad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonia

Quote:
Mesopotamia refers to the region now occupied by modern Iraq, eastern Syria, and southeastern Turkey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia

Since Babylon (Iraq) conquered the Assyrians, and Babylon was an ancient state in the south part of Mesopotamia, and Mesopotamia refers to the region now occupied by modern Iraq... for the Assyrians to become the work of God's hands, there must be a great deal of conversion of the people within Iraq. This is why I see the situation in the Middle East as all a part of God's plan for the region, if this prophecy is ever to be fulfilled.

-- August 26, 2006 9:43 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Note that Egypt, Israel and Assyria are all involved and spoken of in this Isaiah 19 Scripture. For those who see the Bible as a predictive prophecy concerning the Middle East, I cannot see Jesus returning and ending the space time continuum (Armageddon) with these verses left unfulfilled.

For these and other reasons, the minute I hear that Israel is again involved in a dispute in the Middle East, I do not automatically assume Armageddon is about to take place in the Middle East, as some seem to do..

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source Ar·ma·ged·don (ärm-gdn) Pronunciation Key
n.

1) Bible. The scene of a final battle between the forces of good and evil, prophesied to occur at the end of the world.
2) Armageddon occurs only in Rev. 16:16 (R.V., "Har-Magedon"), as symbolically designating the place where the "battle of that great day of God Almighty" (ver. 14) shall be fought. The word properly means the "mount of Megiddo." It is the scene of the final conflict between Christ and Antichrist. The idea of such a scene was suggested by the Old Testament great battle-field, the plain of Esdraelon (q.v.).

To me, the Bible gives hope to the residents of the Middle East that there is ordained for them a time of peace and a time of good and this must happen before there is an end of all things (Armageddon). When it says: Isa 19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.... that designates a time when there is a HIGHWAY built and a time of serving God (the God of the Bible) together.. which to me designates it as a large period of time, not a small and insignificant "comma" followed by a quick move onto Armageddon. Perhaps the year 3,000 will pass as 2,000 and 1,000 did with Jesus still tarrying and no end of the world. Perhaps Christians are far too impatient for God to end this sphere, and should instead be thinking of Jesus' words, "occupy til I come." (Luke 19:13)

Sara.

-- August 26, 2006 9:44 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Carl wrote:

WHAT THA....

The other day I had to undergo a Military Physical for the Coast Guard.
The Physical indicated my Triglicerides were out of proportion....so in order to get my blood back in line the flight surgeon prescribed a medication called...GEMFIBROZIL..

This should make you healthy in about 3 months...she stated...

THEN I TOOK IT UPON MYSELF TO RESEARCH THE SIDE EFFECTS...

This medication can cause...
Stomach pains and cramps
Change your taste buds
Create numbness and tingling in your hands and feet
Blurring Vision has been reported numerous times
DECREASED SEXUAL DESIRE
DECREASED SEXUAL ABILITY
Bouts of Depression
Bouts of Sore Throat
Can be the cause of severe muscle damage which if untreated may lead to a fatal condition called rhabdomyolysis
Bouts of fever
May turn your eyes and skin yellow
Turns urine dark red (now talk about snow painting with color)
Change is urine discharge
Easy bruising
Frequent Itching
Can cause Gallstones resulting in GallBladder Surgery
May result in body swelling
Persistent nausea and frequent vomiting
Persistent unusual tiredness
May create respiritory diease causing problems in breathing
Bouts of Rashes
Can cause serious kidney problems leading to dialysis
Dizziness resulting in interfering with driving or operating machinery

Put that above information with this...

Last year in the USA around 15,000 people died of being Gunshot...
Last year in the USA around 122,000 people died from improper treatment from doctors

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Carl,

Gemfibrozil is a fibric acid derivative. It modulates the metabolism of your cells so that they may more efficiently respond to daily fluctuations of fatty acids and triglycerides. I can go into further detail on this mechanism if you would like, but I'll spare the general crowd for now. The side effect list is one that I have a love hate relationship with. You see, the FDA regulations demand that EVERY reported side effect be on a drugs list, no matter how infrequently reported or substantiated it is. In other words, anyone can call up and report anything they wish and its not necessarily subject to professional verification. Yes its good for the consumer, but bad in that no one wants to take the drug if the list is long. The one thing you cannot do is equate the length of the list with increasing likelyhood of an event taking place. The one thing an MD is good at is evaluating risk versus benefit. Don't fall prey to meaningless stats like the one you quoted. Ask questions of your MD first and if you must, get a second opinion. I would never recommend self-treatment based on statistics, or in any other capacity for that matter. Just be careful before jumping to conclusions.

Having said that, I can tell you that Gemfibrozil is an appropriate therapy if you don't have pre-existing liver damage or any renal impairment. Depending on the type of hyperlipidemia you have, it's more or less appropriate (I would have to look at your medical history to determine this, but suffice it to say: its not inappropriate unless the above contraindications are present). Important to know Carl, if you do decide to take it, please let your MD know right away if you are experiencing any of those effects on the list. There are other agents available to treat hyperlipidemia (reductase inhibitors, cholesterol uptake inhibitors, etc.) but for whatever reason your MD chose this agent.

Hope that helps.... good luck, high cholesterol and triglycerides are not to be taken lightly...........

-- August 26, 2006 10:11 AM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Carl; Try Lipitor.

Terri; Try an International Monetary Bank... Every State has atleast one... Usually in the Capital... BoA should be able to guide you in the right direction. If you live outside of Houston... every International Airport also has Currency Exchanges... You will just have to have smaller bills for those places. Rates might be higher but who cares.

Outlaw

-- August 26, 2006 10:26 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Carl;

Coincidentally, I was reading a book called, "Protein Power" by Michael R. Eades, M.D. and Mary Dan Eades, M.D. These doctors take a very unconventional approach to lowering triglycerides which is dietary, not drug related. I thought you might like to read this section to see if it would interest you INSTEAD of the drug regimen you have been prescribed. I am not a doctor, but Michael R. Eades is.. and this has worked in his practice. Here is the section:

Treating the Symptom, Missing the Problem

Jayne had been unaware that she even had a problem until she went for a routine physical examination. Her doctor checked her over, told her she appeared to be in good health, drew some blood, and told her he would call her when the results came back from the lab. He called the next day and dropped the bombshell: her blood fats were dangerously elevated. Her serum cholesterol was 750 mg/dl (milligrams/deciliter) - normal is anything below 200 and her triglycerides (another blood fat usually measured in the 100-to-250-mg/dl range) were a whopping 3,000 mg/dl! Most physicians get excited over a cholesterol of 300 mg/dl, let alone 750, and become outright alarmed at such a triglyceride level. So it's no suprise that her doctor - following standard medical protocol - completely bypassed Step One and immediately started her on the National Cholesterol Awareness Program, Step-Two Diet and two potent cholesterol-lowering medications.

Jayne faithfully followed her doctor's orders for six months, although not without difficulty. The medications nauseated her, and the diet kept her constantly hungry. Her condition was the talk of friends and relatives, one of whom actually remarked to her, "I didn't know a person could still be alive with a cholesterol of 750!" By the time Jayne returned for her recheck, she was desperate for improvement. And she had improved some, but not nearly enough. Her cholesterol had dropped from 750 mg/dl to 475 mg/dl and her triglycerides from 3,000 mg/dl to 2,000 mg/dl - an improvement to be sure, but still cause for great concern to both Jayne and her physician. They discussed treatment options. Her doctor suggested either increasing the dosage of her cholesterol-lowering medications or adding yet another medicine to her regimen. Jayne wanted to think about it before she decided which option to take. She decided to do neither until she got a second opinion from another physician, so she came to our clinic.

After listening to her history, we drew another blood sample and found that indeed she did have extraordinarily elevated levels of cholesterol and triglycerides in her blood -- 495 mg/dl and 1,900 mg/dl, respectively. In addition, her blood sugar was elevated to 155 mg/dl (normal is below 115/dl), an ominous sign of impending diabetes.

We instructed Jayne to stop taking both of her cholesterol-lowering medications and to change her diet drastically. Her new nutritional regimen allowed meat (even red meat), eggs, cheese, and many other foods that most people view as causing cholesterol problems, not solving them. We told her to call in three weeks to check in and to come back to have her blood checked in six weeks.

She called at her appointed time and reported that she "felt grand" and that her nausea and hunger had vanished. The results of her blood work astounded her. Jayne's cholesterol level had fallen to 186 mg/dl and her triglycerides to 86 mg/dl. Her blood sugar had dropped to 90 mg/dl; everything was back in the normal range. As you might imagine, she was ecstatic.

How could this happen? How can a diet virtually everyone believes should raise cholesterol actually lower it-- and in a person who doesn't have just a slight cholesterol elevation but a major one? We know Jayne Bledsoe's case is not a freak happenstance or an aberration because we've tried variations of the same regimen on countless other patients -- all with the same results. The results make perfect sense, because Jayne's problem, her illness, is not the elevated cholesterol level -- that's merely a sign of the underlying problem. Her problem is hyperinsulinemia, a chronic elevation of serum insulin.

When Jayne first came to our office, her insulin level was almost 20 mU/ml (milliUnits/milliliter), about double what we consider normal, which is anything below 10 mU/ml. After six weeks on a diet designed to lower her insulin level, Jayne's lab work showed that she had dropped hers to 12 mU/ml, amost normal. By treating her real problem --excess insulin-- we were able to solve her secondary problems of elevated cholesterol, triglycerides, and blood sugar. Standard medical therapies treat the symptoms of excess insulin - elevated cholesterol, triglycerides, blood sugar, blood pressure, and obesity -- instead of treating the excess insulin itself. Unfortunately, the standard treatment of the symptoms may even raise the insulin levels and worsen the underlying problem.

===end of quote===

Note that she was on the medications for SIX MONTHS.. with little improvement.. but only three to six weeks on this diet and she was back in the normal range! Quite remarkable results, to be sure. I am just interested in Protein in the diet (hence the name of the book "Protein Power" intrigued me when I saw it at the second hand book store for 1.99), but I wondered as I read this section of the book and your post if your taking this diet to see if it lowers your triglycerides might be a prudent step before exposing your body to such potential abuse. Better to use a bb gun than a canon if the BB gun will do the trick, as it were. Your call, my friend. Maybe buy the book and see?

Sara.

-- August 26, 2006 10:34 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Sara:
Thanks for advice as I have already decided to go the El Natural Way....will look up the book.

It is disheartening that doctors will prescribe things that do more harm than good...
Its sort of like drowning you to prevent dry skin...

-- August 26, 2006 10:56 AM ∞

---

KENNY PORTER wrote:

HELLO ALL,I AM NEW TO THIS SIGHT,HOWEVER I HAVE BEEN READING OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS OF DISCUSSIONS OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS,AND I MUST ADMIT THAT I'VE GONE FROM BEING EXCITED, TO BEING DEPRESSED, AND BACK TO BEING SORT OF EXCITED ABOUT MY DINAR INVESTMENT.I BUY MY DINAR FROM SMARTDINAR.COM,I LIKE BUYING FROM THIS GUY BECAUSE HE LIVES IN MY SAME HOME TOWN AND I CAN GO TO HIS HOUSE AND INSPECT THE DINARS BEFORE I PAY HIM, PLUS I DONT HAVE TO DEAL WITH SHIPPING AND I CAN BUY IN ANY AMOUNT I CHOOSE. I HAVENT BOUGHT VERY MUCH ONLY 475,000.I DONT KNOW IF ANYONE IS AWARE OF THIS BUT YOU CAN ALSO PURCHASE DINAR FROM CAPITAL ONE BANK,IF YOU HAVE AN ACCOUNT WITH THEM,AND WHEN THE TIME COMES YOU WILL BE ABLE TO CASH THEM AT CAPITAL ONE, THIS MAY HELP TERRI WITH HER QUESTION ABOUT WHERE TO CASH THEM IN WHEN THEY HIT THE FOREX.I PROBABLY WONT PURCHASE ANY MORE FOR A WHILE, AS IT IS GETTING CLOSE TO DEER SEASON HERE IN THE OL "BAYOU STATE", I'M STARTING TO THINK ABOUT BUCKS WITH ANTLERS,RATHER THAN BUCKS YOU PUT IN YOUR WALLET.LOL. I'M SURE I'LL CONTINUE MY DINAR QUEST AFTER HUNTING SEASON,OR AS I HAVE EXTRA MONEY. I HOPE THIS BIT OF INFO HAS HELPED, AND I PLAN TO POST MORE COMMENTS. THANKS,KENNY

-- August 26, 2006 12:40 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Re Cures,

It's your own body, and ultimately you are responsible, not the doc, but the medical field have a full science behind them in the knowledge of what works and what doesnt work.

A cure would be something that you take and it will be fixed, and then you could forget about it.

This cholesterol level and pertaining levels of different agents,seem to be something you need to keep in a certain level, and would not be a sickness per see. Thus it must be a continous monitoring of the levels you need to be in.

I can though see a docs viewpoint, look at it like a pro car mechanic, he's telling over and over to change the oil, but the guy that have the car knows better, his grand dad told him that all you have to do is toss a piece of charcoal in the oilfilter, so thats what he is doing and never changes the oil.

No matter what the car mechanics are saying, the car owner knows his car best and keeps doing the old house cure.

There is a lot of scientific research in oils, they have become superior to anything that was on the shelf only fifteen years ago, and compared with oils back in the musclecar era, in comparison, the old oil was almost destructive.

Then it's a matter of priorities, long life or quality of life. Have a choice, get a boner but live a shorter life.

Also, we are a bit hindered from sue happy people.

If the Horrible Petrifying Stiffnes Diseas, WILL kill 100% of the affected, and the mixture Dr Zekes, Indian Remedy Oil WILL cure 85% but the cure itself WILL kill 15%, this will secure the survivial of 85% of the affected that otherwise would have died.

The 15% that died because of the cure, their relatives will effectively make sure the cure will not be administered to anyone.

So nowdays we dont get CURES, we get stuff that makes us live WITH the desease.

In the past the medical science was actually geared to CURE diseases, and there was along line of cures for different diseases discovered.

The last years, those news are far and few inbetween, but I get reports the whole time of medication that will prolong the life of HIV infected, but never a CURE.

One could think that with all the billions thrown at that science, CURES would start popping up, but I suppose that as they get all these billions, they go to work TRYING to get a cure.

If you actually would get a CURE , you're out of work.

So it seems like, we want a cure, but only old time remedies are avaliable as the only avaliable technology on that, and sure they are somewhat old and out dated, and in modern science somewhat questionable.

However from the modern medicine science, we will only get more and more medicine , no cure, you still have the disease, but with the medication you learn to live with it.

We wont cure you,thats probably against the law, but we can keep you alive with pills and at the end, machines.

-- August 26, 2006 12:56 PM ∞

---

valerio wrote:

Sara
The time when the Egyptian and the Assyrian will worship Jesus will not happen during this age of humanity, but will happen during the mellinial Kingdom. This happens after the son of perdition is revealed on earth. He is the anti-christ, which means instead of Christ, yes an imposter who will deceive many. Then will the last trump sound, and the firmaments and the earth will melt with a fervant heat, and we all shall be changed because no flesh will survive this event. Those who are in Christ will be gathered together with those saints who were already dead, in the spirit,and the Lord will descend with all his saints with him, and the works of the desolator will be laid bare at the brightness of our lords comming, and every knee will bow to the Lord. If you search the scriptures you will find it documents these things many times. You must learn to read with understanding, knowing how to keep the subject, and object, and how also to rightly divide the word of truth.

-- August 26, 2006 1:18 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Steve...Outlaw...Roger...Sara...
Thanks for the input on the triglicerides...if the El Natural way does not improve my situation in 3 months...I will probably try the poison they prescribed...but very reluctantly..

I'll let you know the results.....

-- August 26, 2006 1:27 PM ∞

---

Anonymous wrote:

OK Gang... I thought I'd do a little research and see if I am the only one who thinks that things have gotten way too deep on the Bible talk... Here are just a few that I pulled over the last few weeks... You be the judge!

I bet if I keep going I can find that quite a lot of people have been complaining. (even some that now do it themselves) The sad part it that they end up leaving the board after getting attacked for asking it to stop. Note that this is only a few weeks of requests!

=================================================

Outlaw wrote:
Sara, Smooter, Carl and anyone else this pertains too:

After reading Smoother's last comment, I had to jump in and make this comment...

First of all, I haven't seen anyone on this site tell anyone NOT to preach the word of God, just to take it to another forum designed for that perticular discussion. Smooter has taken it to a higher level. (I believe he way saying that this was an example of non-belivers trying to stop the word of God... like we are Satin or something... give me a break and grow-up!) I must admit that the responce that I have seen from requests to take off topic discussions elsewhere, have been simular to the type of responce that one gets from a smoker who feels he or she has the right to inflict their habit onto others around them. Non smokers in that situtation, are persons who are forced to participate in something that they choose not to participate in. The non-smoker has no rights in the eyes of the smoker. The smoker feels that the non-smoker is trying to prohibit the rights of the smoker to smoke... in reality, non-smokers couldn't care less how the smoker lives their life as long as they are considerate to others around them, and to take their business to a more appropate place that won't "forcefully" inflict that situtation onto non-participants.

That also pertains to this topic. I am a religious person, but my beliefs are like everyone's... different in many ways... every persons beliefs are a direct result of the enviroment that they were raised in... so everyones beliefs will be different. Religion, Sexual preferences,Politics, Abortion, Civil Rights, Etc...These types of discussions usually always end-up in participants getting their feelings hurt because of differences in beliefs and should be avoided in all public forums if possible.

Everyone is aware that God wants all belivers to preach his word... when the Dinar hits... build a Church and persue that. Until then, please respect others and take off topic discussions to another forum... phone, letters, e-mails, blogs, etc...

I might be wrong, but; I believe that when Kevin authored this page on his Blog, it was intended for the discussion of Dinar as stated in it's name... "Iraqi Dinar Discussion". Kevin, Please correct me if I'm wrong!

Outlaw

-- August 25, 2006 11:45 AM ∞

=================================================

Seeker wrote:

Sara

I don't comment much here but I read every day. I don't mind your postings. I rather enjoy them. When fresh Dinar news it scarce it fills the void. More education is always a good thing.
BUT!
This IS a Dinar board. When the general population says enough is enough, back it up.
Please!

There are alot of intelligent interesting people here with alot of intelligent interesting things to say. Yet sometimes you carry on like this is SARA'S BOARD.
As far back as I've read this board, religion has always been the backup topic. Relax, you'll get your chance to kick in somemore later, AND PLEASE STOP THE OBSESSIVE YELLING! Your like a kid with a new toy every since you were shown how to do it.

=================================================

TAYLOR wrote:

Sara you are a nuisance. Just to think.. I actually felt bad for you when ministryoflies belittled you. Who are you to take up someone else's time with absolut bullshi*? Obviously you haven't used the internet for very long. On a discussion board with a designated topic at hand, you stick to the topic. If you have a different topic to bore the crap out people with; you start your own link.

You are right when you say that I can ignore postings or not show up here at all, however, why should I leave when you are the one who is abusing this forum.

If news is slow for a week on dinars, I have an idea; shut your fuc*ing pie hole. Don't make up things to just hear yourself type. Go out and investigate and bring in some useful information.

TAYLOR

-- August 22, 2006 02:17 PM ∞

=================================================

TAYLOR wrote:

Would you Jesus freaks get back to the topic at hand! If you want your discussion to continue, I suggest you go to Jesustalk.com. This is a dinar board. Conversation about... hmmmm.. lets see... oh yeah... DINARS!! You can possibly go off on a tangent and talk about related things like Iraq and the military. Leave your God conversation to another forum. Its not that I care you talk about it, it's that have you ever seen how long it takes to load this board when the conversation consists of long unrelated topics?

Hell.. I've got a T1 connection and its taking forever to access the most current info becuase it first has to download conversations about who was cooler Darwin or Jesus.

Stay on topic or please leave. Sara, I realize you post alot of useful information here, but leave the Jesus conversation to church.

Thanks.
TAYLOR

-- August 21, 2006 03:19 PM ∞

=================================================

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Here, here, Taylor.

Might I suggest other more relevant topics more closely linked to dinar speculation:

1) Updated opinions of RV ranges, dates and reasons for these conclusions.
2) Practicalities of 'cashing in' when/if a RV happens.
3) When will the International Investment Laws be Passed?
4) Re-investment strategies if there is a big windfall.
5) The continuing situation in Lebanon/Israel - will a ceasefire hold?
6) Implications of Iran defying UN over Uranium enrichment and missile testing.
7) The additioonal 3700 US troops in Baghdad - are they having the desired effect?
8) Other investment opportunities within Iraq - when, why and how much?
9) Chances of the Democrats winning the next U.S. elections?
10) Liklihood of another major international terrorist incident such as 911 or the attempted
air passenger bombings in the U.K.

When all of that is thoroughly hashed out, perhaps then we can talk about the meaning of life?

-- August 21, 2006 06:08 PM ∞

=================================================

forest wrote:

This page should be called: "Geeks and Jesus Freaks"

-- August 18, 2006 11:48 AM ∞

=================================================

TAYLOR wrote:

Amen Forest!!

-- August 18, 2006 12:06 PM ∞

=================================================

Roger wrote:

Sara,

No I didnt "Finally" give in to your arguments, I just found that that partgicular posting you had was very good, and perhaps give you a bit of knowledge for you on the issue of decaying matter as a clock. No more no less.

Sara, you are very strongly convinced and have an unshakeable view of things.

If it is in that way, you dont HAVE TO convince anyone about it.

You give a statement, four people reply with doubts, or countrary to you.

Next day, four long pages from you to each of the offending parties, they will instatly try to make you see their point, and perhaps someone that is not perticularly interested but somewhat amuzed gives a comment.

Ok next day, long letters to each of the parties, including any comment about it. So your response is now doubled. Long pages, and the cycle starts again.

This is just an observaion, Sara, you have the luxury of listening to it, or dissmiss it. There is no communication going on, it's a one way street, any and all proposal given to you, you will automatically shoot back.

It's to the point where people try to tell you something, but it's not going through, and you still shoot overwhelming wolleys of your view, and I mean overwhelming.

You have done that in the past, and it might be in your world that you finally have gotten the upper hand, and you have convinced them about your view, and you have won one more battle for the good of things.

I want you to consider that it might be that people after a while dont give a rats ass about you as there is no entrance door there, and just give up on you.

-- August 17, 2006 09:31 PM ∞

=================================================

Roger wrote:

Sara,

This posting was a posting that finally made sense.

=================================================

Lance wrote:

All,

Dinar News or the Iraqi economy below. Remember Dinars? They have nothing to do with religion, science, or several other things. I know you can do it!!! Think dinars!!!!

=================================================

TAYLOR wrote:

Wow! At what point did this room transfer from a Dinar discussion to a bible beaters convention?! Get back on target.

-- August 9, 2006 03:50 PM ∞

=================================================

Nelly B - Investor wrote:
Sara,

I know you are by far the most prolific poster on this forum and have probably better knowledge of its contents right back to its infancy, better than anyone else.

I appreciate all of the news and most of the insight that you bring to this forum.

I have no intention of asking you to censor your opinions or insight, just to keep it on topic for those that want to follow the dinar discussion, not your endless quoting and personal interpretation of the bible, which is largely irrelevant to even the discussion of the cultural and religious differences of Iraq and its neighbouring countries.

Please bear in mind that not everyone has religious beliefs and not everyone wants to hear yours.

=================================================

Well??? Rebuttals??? Comments??? For all of you older T&B posters do I need to remind you why Sara left this forum before? History does seem to repeat itself, but this time it seems that she brought her Bible Study Class back with her.

Outlaw

-- August 26, 2006 2:46 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Roger wrote:

"One could think that with all the billions thrown at that science, CURES would start popping up, but I suppose that as they get all these billions, they go to work TRYING to get a cure.

If you actually would get a CURE , you're out of work."

------------------------------------------------------------

Being in medicine myself, I fully agree with Rogers assessment. Simply put, there is no money in a cure.
The last thing cured was polio. Think about it........

-- August 26, 2006 3:11 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Valerio...
I believe sara can hold her own ...everyone has an interpretation...and they all AIN'T THE SAME... just choose one...whatever strikes your fancy and go with it...
May the force be with ya....

-- August 26, 2006 3:40 PM ∞

---

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
OK Gang... I thought I'd do a little research and see if I am the only one who thinks that things have gotten way too deep on the Bible talk... Here are just a few that I pulled over the last few weeks... You be the judge!

I bet if I keep going I can find that quite a lot of people have been complaining. (even some that now do it themselves) The sad part it that they end up leaving the board after getting attacked for asking it to stop. Note that this is only a few weeks of requests!

=================================================

Outlaw wrote:
Sara, Smooter, Carl and anyone else this pertains too:

After reading Smoother's last comment, I had to jump in and make this comment...

First of all, I haven't seen anyone on this site tell anyone NOT to preach the word of God, just to take it to another forum designed for that perticular discussion. Smooter has taken it to a higher level. (I believe he way saying that this was an example of non-belivers trying to stop the word of God... like we are Satin or something... give me a break and grow-up!) I must admit that the responce that I have seen from requests to take off topic discussions elsewhere, have been simular to the type of responce that one gets from a smoker who feels he or she has the right to inflict their habit onto others around them. Non smokers in that situtation, are persons who are forced to participate in something that they choose not to participate in. The non-smoker has no rights in the eyes of the smoker. The smoker feels that the non-smoker is trying to prohibit the rights of the smoker to smoke... in reality, non-smokers couldn't care less how the smoker lives their life as long as they are considerate to others around them, and to take their business to a more appropate place that won't "forcefully" inflict that situtation onto non-participants.

That also pertains to this topic. I am a religious person, but my beliefs are like everyone's... different in many ways... every persons beliefs are a direct result of the enviroment that they were raised in... so everyones beliefs will be different. Religion, Sexual preferences,Politics, Abortion, Civil Rights, Etc...These types of discussions usually always end-up in participants getting their feelings hurt because of differences in beliefs and should be avoided in all public forums if possible.

Everyone is aware that God wants all belivers to preach his word... when the Dinar hits... build a Church and persue that. Until then, please respect others and take off topic discussions to another forum... phone, letters, e-mails, blogs, etc...

I might be wrong, but; I believe that when Kevin authored this page on his Blog, it was intended for the discussion of Dinar as stated in it's name... "Iraqi Dinar Discussion". Kevin, Please correct me if I'm wrong!

Outlaw

-- August 25, 2006 11:45 AM ∞

=================================================

Seeker wrote:

Sara

I don't comment much here but I read every day. I don't mind your postings. I rather enjoy them. When fresh Dinar news it scarce it fills the void. More education is always a good thing.
BUT!
This IS a Dinar board. When the general population says enough is enough, back it up.
Please!

There are alot of intelligent interesting people here with alot of intelligent interesting things to say. Yet sometimes you carry on like this is SARA'S BOARD.
As far back as I've read this board, religion has always been the backup topic. Relax, you'll get your chance to kick in somemore later, AND PLEASE STOP THE OBSESSIVE YELLING! Your like a kid with a new toy every since you were shown how to do it.

=================================================

TAYLOR wrote:

Sara you are a nuisance. Just to think.. I actually felt bad for you when ministryoflies belittled you. Who are you to take up someone else's time with absolut bullshi*? Obviously you haven't used the internet for very long. On a discussion board with a designated topic at hand, you stick to the topic. If you have a different topic to bore the crap out people with; you start your own link.

You are right when you say that I can ignore postings or not show up here at all, however, why should I leave when you are the one who is abusing this forum.

If news is slow for a week on dinars, I have an idea; shut your fuc*ing pie hole. Don't make up things to just hear yourself type. Go out and investigate and bring in some useful information.

TAYLOR

-- August 22, 2006 02:17 PM ∞

=================================================

TAYLOR wrote:

Would you Jesus freaks get back to the topic at hand! If you want your discussion to continue, I suggest you go to Jesustalk.com. This is a dinar board. Conversation about... hmmmm.. lets see... oh yeah... DINARS!! You can possibly go off on a tangent and talk about related things like Iraq and the military. Leave your God conversation to another forum. Its not that I care you talk about it, it's that have you ever seen how long it takes to load this board when the conversation consists of long unrelated topics?

Hell.. I've got a T1 connection and its taking forever to access the most current info becuase it first has to download conversations about who was cooler Darwin or Jesus.

Stay on topic or please leave. Sara, I realize you post alot of useful information here, but leave the Jesus conversation to church.

Thanks.
TAYLOR

-- August 21, 2006 03:19 PM ∞

=================================================

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Here, here, Taylor.

Might I suggest other more relevant topics more closely linked to dinar speculation:

1) Updated opinions of RV ranges, dates and reasons for these conclusions.
2) Practicalities of 'cashing in' when/if a RV happens.
3) When will the International Investment Laws be Passed?
4) Re-investment strategies if there is a big windfall.
5) The continuing situation in Lebanon/Israel - will a ceasefire hold?
6) Implications of Iran defying UN over Uranium enrichment and missile testing.
7) The additioonal 3700 US troops in Baghdad - are they having the desired effect?
8) Other investment opportunities within Iraq - when, why and how much?
9) Chances of the Democrats winning the next U.S. elections?
10) Liklihood of another major international terrorist incident such as 911 or the attempted
air passenger bombings in the U.K.

When all of that is thoroughly hashed out, perhaps then we can talk about the meaning of life?

-- August 21, 2006 06:08 PM ∞

=================================================

forest wrote:

This page should be called: "Geeks and Jesus Freaks"

-- August 18, 2006 11:48 AM ∞

=================================================

TAYLOR wrote:

Amen Forest!!

-- August 18, 2006 12:06 PM ∞

=================================================

Roger wrote:

Sara,

No I didnt "Finally" give in to your arguments, I just found that that partgicular posting you had was very good, and perhaps give you a bit of knowledge for you on the issue of decaying matter as a clock. No more no less.

Sara, you are very strongly convinced and have an unshakeable view of things.

If it is in that way, you dont HAVE TO convince anyone about it.

You give a statement, four people reply with doubts, or countrary to you.

Next day, four long pages from you to each of the offending parties, they will instatly try to make you see their point, and perhaps someone that is not perticularly interested but somewhat amuzed gives a comment.

Ok next day, long letters to each of the parties, including any comment about it. So your response is now doubled. Long pages, and the cycle starts again.

This is just an observaion, Sara, you have the luxury of listening to it, or dissmiss it. There is no communication going on, it's a one way street, any and all proposal given to you, you will automatically shoot back.

It's to the point where people try to tell you something, but it's not going through, and you still shoot overwhelming wolleys of your view, and I mean overwhelming.

You have done that in the past, and it might be in your world that you finally have gotten the upper hand, and you have convinced them about your view, and you have won one more battle for the good of things.

I want you to consider that it might be that people after a while dont give a rats ass about you as there is no entrance door there, and just give up on you.

-- August 17, 2006 09:31 PM ∞

=================================================

Roger wrote:

Sara,

This posting was a posting that finally made sense.

=================================================

Lance wrote:

All,

Dinar News or the Iraqi economy below. Remember Dinars? They have nothing to do with religion, science, or several other things. I know you can do it!!! Think dinars!!!!

=================================================

TAYLOR wrote:

Wow! At what point did this room transfer from a Dinar discussion to a bible beaters convention?! Get back on target.

-- August 9, 2006 03:50 PM ∞

=================================================

Nelly B - Investor wrote:
Sara,

I know you are by far the most prolific poster on this forum and have probably better knowledge of its contents right back to its infancy, better than anyone else.

I appreciate all of the news and most of the insight that you bring to this forum.

I have no intention of asking you to censor your opinions or insight, just to keep it on topic for those that want to follow the dinar discussion, not your endless quoting and personal interpretation of the bible, which is largely irrelevant to even the discussion of the cultural and religious differences of Iraq and its neighbouring countries.

Please bear in mind that not everyone has religious beliefs and not everyone wants to hear yours.

=================================================

Well??? Rebuttals??? Comments??? For all of you older T&B posters do I need to remind you why Sara left this forum before? History does seem to repeat itself, but this time it seems that she brought her Bible Study Class back with her.

Outlaw

-- August 26, 2006 4:30 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Outlaw!
No! There is nothing really going on with the dinar presently...
So we fill in the time with different topics...ya know! sort of like using the remote with the TV or channel surfing on the radio...the other option is similar to watching the color bars on the TV screen back years ago ,when the TV stations went off the air.....

So what I do if the subject does not interest me...I just bar on down the board, until I do find a subject that does...I find that I am not required to read every topic discussed...so it really does not bother me, if the subject is of interest to someone else and they are dialoging about it...
I really believe that is why this board has survived so long...ya never know what you are going to read or learn from these T&B bloggers...yep! The bloggers on this board have talents that will stimulate ya...just plain irritate ya...make ya laugh....tick ya off...try to convert ya....educate ya....but will never bore ya to death...

-- August 26, 2006 4:53 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Hi Guys.

Just a quickie to update on the market for dinars sales on Ebay this side of the pond...

Previously I had posted that a search of 'million dinars' in all categories in completed sales during the previous 2 weeks had shown just 18 million dinars being sold, mostly in lots of 250,000 dinars. Also there were at any one time around 500 to 550 dinar listings at any one time.

I've checked a couple of times this week and the listings have dropped to about 330 to 350 listings at any one time.

The results for ALL transactions of listings containing the words 'million dinars' were as follows:

1 x 5 million (£2850 + 9.99 P&P)
3 x 1 million (£475 + 4.95 / $820 + $20)
4 x 1/4 million (£135.75 + £1.82 P&P)

...Yep just 5 million dinars in total over 2 weeks, where it was previously 18 million for the same search. Many listings went unsold.

Not really sure what to make of those results. Could be any or a combination of the following:

1) Saturation of the market - 'everyone' has bought what they want.
2) Repeat buyers are doing deals off Ebay
3) People are too busy with their kids during the summer holidays to bother with Ebay?
4) People have spent on summer holidays and dont have spare cash to invest.
5) The crisis in Lebannon / Israel, also Iran, has made dinars look like more of a risk, or a RV further away from happening.
6) Several other I haven't considered, that I'm hoping you all will add to this list.

You guys have a lot more options where to buy from over there, which makes the results from a single source less significant. In the UK, there is Ebay, or there are online companies who source from the U.S. or middle east. I know which I'd be most comfortable with (keep it local). This is shardly scientific, but it does indicate the major source for uk buyers is really slow at the moment. Contrary to what I was led to believe from another forum, I am still not aware of any UK banks supplying dinars direct, even in small quantities.

Outlaw... Welcome back. I had a feeling you wouldn't be gone for too long.

Carl... Sorry to hear your prob. It seems you have some very useful friends here to help.

My view on the peacekeeping agreement... yeah what you have highlighted sucks. It's not nearly what could have been done... BUT I'm sure there were huge compromises made in order to get ANY ceasefire to happen. The important thing is, for now at least the violence has stopped. Had the negotiations have taken further days, weeks, or longer to hash out, the violence may have escalated or the talks of a ceasefire may have broken down in the mean-time. Lets just hope it holds, despite the lack of interaction / intervention by the U.N. Peacekeepers.

Roger / Lance... excellent informative, stimulating posts as ever. Keep 'em coming.

Roger... I love your analytical slant on things. You have a lot of life experience which you apply to enable you to very effectively cut to the chase and spell out your take on things in concise and lucid way. You don't seem short of opinions ;O)

Lance, you are far too modest about your contributions... its easy enough to hear in the news that inflation is driving up prices but not wages... its another to hear from someone who sees daily life and hears the effects first hand from the people its affecting. Please elaborate.

Sara. You moan and make a point of it when someone posts something you find vulgar and distateful. Other people respect your requests and it stops. Several people complain when you post something they find offensive or don't want to read... it continues.

As far as I can recall I have never seen anyone posting ridicule you about your news posts. If you don't want to be ridiculed, don't cause offence!

The bible is there for anyone who chooses to read it. It does not need to be shoved in our face without our choice. It is not my wish to promote anything you find offensive, but please try to imagine how you would feel if I or anyone else continued to promote abortion for example. It's no more off topic and its no more offensive to some than continuous bible quotes. How would you feel if I were to swamp the boards with promotion of killing or child abuse (I wont because it's not something for this forum and not something I would promote) and ask you to simply 'not read them', 'just skip down to the next post'? Better yet, consider that a rhetorical question. Just pause for thought and consider your actions. This forum does not need 18 pages of rebuttals about how I am infringing on your rights to free speach or to spread god's message. That just distracts peoples (limited) time and efforts to search out and contribute relevant dinar information, the main reason we are here.

Everyone else... Thanks for the (dinar) info.

Thanks all.

-- August 26, 2006 5:45 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Carl,

I do understand exactly what your saying! When times are slow other topics will come up and that isn't a problem. I don't have a problem when people talking about Religion... But the CONSTANT bombardment is getting really OLD! Sara is so persistant with the topic that she tends to have indepth conversations at times with no one but herself!, and you know what they say about talking and answering yourself right? :)

Sara is an extreamly intelligent person who also is very versed on a vast amount of topics and she is an asset to this board (when she wants to be!) but it just appears to me that she only continues because she knows that doing so, will draw comments, which gives her a chance to further disrespect that person. Is that your agenda Sara? To irritate and piss people off? Sure seems so to me and others.

Everyone knows that there are places where one can go to have really indepth Religious conversations and I am puzzled why she won't take her expertise to a board that would appreshate her factual input instead of requests that she stop on this board. Maybe we can ask Kevin to make another page strickly for that topic for everyone to use when times are slow.

I guess no one remembers the days when people were taught the basic things that one does to get along with your fellow man-kind. Remember back in kindergarden, your teacher showing everyone how to treat your fellow class mates and when you did something just to bother others, you were given a time out or not allowed to go out to play after lunch???

Sara has been asked in many different ways to stop from nice to nasty and nothing gets through. In my opinion, she likes disrepecting others and then getting up-set when she is disrespected in-return. I also believe that Sara has no repect for anyone of us including you, Carl, which she will smartly let you know, when you say something she dosen't want to hear from you!

Where do we go from here???

Outlaw

P.S. I bet Sara is a smoker!... probably un-filtered Camels! :)

-- August 26, 2006 6:13 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I think it's fair to say we have two trains of thought regarding the RV....Develop then RV or RV then develop.

The main reason I think they will RV then develop is because they already have a fortune in the ground and it would be better to have a strong Dinar to buy the goods and services required for development.

You can't imagine how busy the "oil patch" companies are right now in the US and UK...and it's going to get much better!

The $1,000 Billion estimate on this field could be much higher after the experts have a look at it with their latest tools.

It's hard to say when the RV will take place but a lot of good indicators are sure coming together right now.

Hang in there gang....it will happen!!

Com'on Dinar!!!!!
==========================================================================

Plans to increase giant field’s oil output
By Abed Battat

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

25 August 2006 (Azzaman)
The Southern Oil Company in Basra wants to boost output from the West Qurna oil field, said a company official.

Sameer Jassem, the company’s information officer, said engineers were working to increase output from the field which experts estimate the worth of its reserves in today’s prices at about $1,000 billion.

The field, according to initial surveys, holds up to 14 billion barrels of proven reserves. It is one of several giant undeveloped fields in southern Iraq.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php?refid=DH-S-25-08-2006&article=10103

-- August 26, 2006 7:49 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Outlaw….

I agree with you….enough is enough! I’m a fairly opened minded person and can tolerate just about any kind of topic, but when someone starts insulting other members of the forum, they’ve gone too far. That’s why I asked smooter to retract some insults that were being stated by him/her regarding the religious conversation.

Where I come from, insults can get you a fat lip in a hurry. To keep this forum on an even keel we need to observe basic sand box rules….you get along to go along. I’ve had good friends like Sara and they were very much like her in their religious zeal. Most of them were ex-alcoholics and suffered from ECB (excessive compulsive behavior). We all got along pretty good but I did have to get in their face every now and then to keep the friendship alive and well.

-- August 26, 2006 9:59 PM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Can we get off the bash Sara topic yet? Let me know when you all wish to talk dinars again.. til then toodalo.

Sara.

-- August 27, 2006 12:23 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Sara,

You only have to ask your self, IN WHAT WAY AM I RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS?

I have given you a couple of hinters in the past. You have brought all this on yourself.

I will not lecture you, I love you, but this one you have to figure out yourself.

No one can help you if you dont want to realize a couple of things.

You have not exactly helped your own cause, but more hurting it.

Sara, just take a walk, go out somewhere, where you can be alone, and do some thinking.

Your effort of giving us the exact thing that you love and cherish, have resulted in the opposite effect. Rejection.

You must figure that one out yourself.

-- August 27, 2006 2:04 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

No S..t? Polio was the last cure, wow, that was cured around fifty years ago, are you actually saying that there has been NO CURE for one damn sickness since then??????????

You seems to know a lot in this field, and that piece of info was astonishing.

Possible ad on big billboard:
"Come to John Hopkins, bring your lifesavings and we will teach you how to cruise smothly in life with whatever disease you choose."

Nelly B,

That is an anamoly, I just dont know what to read into it, perhaps it's more of a local thing in UK.

If there are few dealers in UK a study can be pretty easy on previous sales on E-Bay. Over here there is a lot of dealers, and I believe that the vast majority of sales are through dealers rather then E-Bay, and that makes any comparison with UK very hard to do.

I can assume as the dealers here must be registered with the Treasury Dep, the ammount of impored Iraq Dinars must be recorded somewhere, plus the timeline when it was done.

Sorry, I have limitd time, perhaps if someone with time on their hand can help out in a research on that subject.

Just off the cuff, if you want my opinion, (got plenty of those) I think the lower Dinar sales in UK is more a fluke.

Some time ago there was a big drop one day in Dinar sales posted on the CBI site, and everybody and his brother tried to get a grip on that.

Next auction was in normal range.

Perhaps its nothing to look too deep into.

I just got a mental pic of a chimp in a lab, scratching his head.

Behind a glass panel was ten profesors in white coats and noteblocks trying to figure out what the chimp meant by doing that.

I'd say he was itching.

-- August 27, 2006 2:30 AM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

Sara and All

Sara-

Please don't leave the dinar board. I believe the members here will miss your knowledge.

All others, Please remember that religion is truly personal. However, it is still not inappropriate for the dinar board as the Iraq war is about Islam and it's neighboring countries.

The author of that book (that I wrote about earlier), General Georges Sada is Assyrian and a Christian. About 3 to 4 percent of the people in Iraq are Christian. General Sada would not join the Baath Party because he is not an arab and he is not Islamic. He too has had a time in sharing his faith among a hostile world.

I am going to type some things General Georges said in his book about his ability to be himself.

There's an old saying: "The army belongs to the king," which means that the military belongs to the nation and should not be engaged in politics. But when the Baath Party came to power in 1968, the first thing they did was to politicize the army, air force, and coastal forces of Iraq. The goal was to make sure that everyone, from the newest recruit to the most senior officer, was a member of the party, loyal to the rulers of the nation.

There"s a saying in Arabic: "The Arab nation is one motherland with an eternal message." What does that really mean? The explanation given by Michel Aflag, who was the founder of the Baath Socialist Party, was that "the body of the nation is Arab and the soul of the nation is Islam." So whenever the Baathis would call me, asking me to join the party, I would ask them, "How do you expect me to join a party in which the body is Arab and the soul is Islam, when I'm neither Arab or Muslim? I'm an Assyrian Christian, so clearly I don't belong in such a party."

But they would just say, "Come on, Georges. You're a very good pilot, you're rising very fast in rank and responsibility. Why don't you join? But I said no. My people are the original inhabitants of this land. For more that twenty centuries, long before the Arabs came here, the Assyrians ruled this land. My ancestors were the rulers of Nineveh and Babylon. I'm the genuine Iraqi. It wasn't until the Arabs conquest of AD 634 that there were Arabs in this place, so why would I claim to be something I'm not?(pg 102).

My point, is that Christianity is an important piece of the puzzle to understanding Iraq. Maybe, Sara over did her continual discussions on the topic of Christianity. However, when you engage her on the topic of being a Christian, she will say (just like General Georges) yes I am a Christian and I will not be shamed to tell you about Jesus. This is who these persons are and I am also including myself in their company.

My hope is that all dinar members can put an end to this controversay, move on, and learn that when we try to discredit anyone's beliefs--that we will be met with a defense of one's beliefs.

Sara is entitled to be who she is. You all are entitled to be who you are. Let's all practice moderation and not push each other's buttons.

--Laura

-- August 27, 2006 3:15 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Conspiracies,

The hard part with conspiracies is that they must be in whole or part be a secret in order to be a conspiracy.

There have been conspiracies that have been succesfully pulled off in the past, and if pulled off, the suprise for the opposing party is often suppressed as it will show a lesser intellect on the part of the victim.

Conspiracies are easy in closed societies, but very hard in open societies.

About the only time a big conspiracy is possible in an open society is during wartime, when warplans are hatched.

In a sense a military or Intelligence gathering agency in an open society, is a closed society, and therefore in an open society , any closed entity will always be the prime suspect in a conspiracy.

All conspiracys will eventually be disclosed, if they emanate from a free society, however to protect military secrets or persons involved, time limits might be imposed on when it can be opened up.

There are still documents from different actions done in WW2 that is not to be released until after one hundred years.

Conspiracy theories are pretty funny.

I'm sure you've all seen you share of UFO, Moon Hoax, and Kennedy assasination, theories.

Conspiracy theories are always enormously complex, involving numerous agencies, and numerous individual, the plot line is so complex and elaborate to work, that the involved must probably go to class for six months just to remember all the twists and reasons.

A conspiracy theory have a life of its own, they seem to live forever more like folklore and urban legends, and as it's retold, the players situation and motives changes to fit, very often to cover another conspiracy theory.

Late 1800's saw a document sufacing in Russia, called "The Zions Elders Document". It was a document that was laying out the jewish conquering of the earth.

The document was a very bad attempt to fraud, a scam that was so easily defaced, that even in the very anti jewish environment in Russia at the time, the scholars could write it off directly pointing out all the flaws, it was almost like an uneducated 16 year old had written it.

However, the "jewish conspiracy" was mulled over and over and over again, in different magazines and scripts in Europe and USA. Especially this conspiracy was pointed out in the antisemitic circles before the WW2.

After almost 70 years of being rehearsed in Russia, nazi Germany and diffrent faschist countries, the document had come to a point where it was again taken as the truth.

After the faschists and the Nazis was beaten, the Arabian countries now became enemy to Israel, and the document was taken as truth "discovered" by Arabian scholars.

About one year ago, in Egypt, one TV station run a "documentary", on the actual jewish plan to take over the world, and "disclosed" the secret plan hidden from view since the late 1800's. It was presented as a factual historic document, and not even one hint was given that it was long ago disclosed as a forgery, and a cheap one to that. The Egyptian audience was now educated in such a way, that jews are going to conquer the world.

A conspiracy theory in place for something that is, is an inability to confront what is, and something else have to be invented.

The reason they are building this bridge is because the Chineese can get over here with their Army, and theyre already in control of the Goverment, and they are using our money to set it up, and if you look closely, the width of the lanes are exactly the width of Chineese tanks.

The fact that they're building a bridge to cross the water is too simple.

The more uneducated the reciever of the Conspiracy theory, the more easy it is to convince him.

I worked with inmate collect call phone systems in county jails, some years back.

They were all completely convinced that all the phones was bugged, and was very careful when they talked.

The fact that CIA, FBI, Secret Service , US Goverment and not the least, the county deputy sitting and watching these losers, are completely uninterested of what theyre saying have no effect on them. They "know" that the Goverment have vast resources spending countless manhours listening to them.

They even brag openly how smart they are as the Goverment have not caught them yet on the phone.

No one gives a s..t about those people, it's all in the head, the universe circles around them.

If the explanation is getting complex, you know it's another therory, and it's a lie or two in the story.

The more an issue can be straight confronted, the less complex it will be. Even big issues with a lot of data, lot of situations, lot of players and lot of separate timelines. If the whole situation is clearly confronted, it WILL be simple. Cause and effect WILL materialize and WILL be visible. Once the core cause is identified, a whole pyramid of problems will almost magically dissapear.

Can it really be this simple????

-- August 27, 2006 4:31 AM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Talking of conspiracy theories...

Has anyone seen the conspiracy theory 'loose change' about the 9/11 incidents?

I saw it a few months back. Whilst I could discount a lot of the 'evidence' that the twin towers were also rigged with explosives prior to them being hit by the passenger aircraft, I was more taken in by what was said about the 'incident' at the Pentagon and to a lesser extent about what happened to the aeroplane that crashed in Pennsylvania.

The news over here was very sparse and undetailed about what actually happened at the Pentagon on 11.9.2001, which is probably why it was easy to create something convincing at an alternate to what the U.S. government said happened.

I was particularly interested in the crash damage, officially by a large passenger aircraft directly hitting the Pentagon. The two 9 ton engines for example not even penetrating the outer walls of the building and there being very little wreckage of the engines left afterwards. The 16ft hole left in the wall by the fuselage was said by the conspiracy theory to be more like that created by a missile. I am still asking myself, If a light, flimsy aluminium (aluminum) fusealage penetrated the wall, how come the 9 ton engines didn't? the tape went further to show that the 'wreckage' of the aircraft contained parts of a much smaller engine, but not the parts of the 757 that the government said hit the building.

I can't link to the footage that I'm talking about, but a similar video summary can be see here: http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon.php

Was 911 in part or whole a staged incident to give a credible reason to silence Bin Laden and invade Afghanistan and Iraq?

-- August 27, 2006 6:12 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Nellie!
Roger made his point....the film loose change did what it was design to do...It got you thinking...
"DISTRUST" "HIDDEN AGENDA"

Ask yourself this...where are all of those people who were on the plane if the plane was not what did the damage...?

In law enforcement you see a lot of crazy things...I saw a house burn completely down, nothing standing except the foundation....when it cooled down the next day.....we started the investigation for arson...with ashes up to the knees of my boots, I heard something I did not expect to hear...a ringing coming from underneath the ashes and rubble...We begin to dig to find the ringing....it was a telephone still working, which was melted only on the receiver end...we answered the phone and able to carry on a conversation ...
Question?
How did the phone survive the heat when everything else was either ashes or melted?
How did the wire survive inside the house which lead to the phone?
How did the phone jack survive both on the outside and inside without melting...both were plastic?

Answer:
Things during explosions,fires,auto accidents,storms,floods, do not always follow logic....most do...but not always...it is those things that don't that stand out and give the conspiracy people ammo for a book...
PSSSST..
I have been told Elvis was still alive and he faked his own death to get away from the fans...

I can tell you I know for certain what Elvis Presley would be doing IF he WAS still alive!

Ans:next post

-- August 27, 2006 6:49 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Elvis Presley answer...

TRYING TO GET OUT OF THAT CASKET

-- August 27, 2006 6:50 AM ∞

---

Sara Madgid wrote:

Kind words, Laura Parker. Thank you. I also appreciated your explaining that General Sada was a Christian Assyrian. Interesting since those are the people in the prophecy God says will come to know Him and be His people.

Valerio;

Talking about Conspiracy Theories. Conspiracy theories are ways of explaining events which appear plausible (to some people) but in actuality are not the truth (those who hold them have mistaken the case in some detail of fact or misinterpreted it). In the case of your comment to me, the Bible does not say that timeline for how those Scriptures will come to pass, nor does it put them in that order. What you see as "the only right interpretation" of those events is a manmade system and not Divine in origin. The Bible itself does not say, "This will happen, then this, then that.." in the unequivocal way that you posted to me here. You are piecing together different prophecies into a whole "system" which you then believe is Scriptural. It is not, it is a manmade theory of how the events will come to pass.

When you say, "You have it wrong, it will happen this way - you are claiming a kind of infallible authority for your interpretation which I am unwilling to believe you (or anyone else) has. As I said before - your interpretation may be right. But then again, like the interpretations of the last 2,000 year track record of the church which have not yet ever come to pass - you could be wrong.

The only point of agreement we can have is this - this is definitely a yet-unfulfilled future event. WHEN the event will take place or how - in what sequence of events, is not yet determined because they are future events. When you say, "The time when the Egyptian and the Assyrian will worship Jesus will not happen during this age of humanity, but will happen during the mellinial Kingdom. This happens after... then... You must learn to read with understanding, knowing how to keep the subject, and object, and how also to rightly divide the word of truth." Please note that your point of view is that it will not happen in this age.. but during the Millennial Kingdom. However, when you say I must learn to "rightly divide the word of truth" - what you are claiming is that your interpretation is correct and mine is flawed. You are claiming infallibility. If your theory turns out wrong (as the theories of the past 2,000 years have turned out to be concerning the sequence of events attached to the return of Christ), it will be classed alongside "Conspiracy Theories".. as baseless theories which explain events which appear plausible (to some people) but in actuality are not the truth.

Can you be honest enough to admit that your INTERPRETATION of yet-future events could possibly be incorrect? Or will you claim to yourself infalliblity in predicting all future outcomes of events because only you (and the other enlightened crew who believe the way you do about these theories) are capable of reading the Bible and correctly interpreting its message? Remember that was the fault of the Pharisees when they said of Jesus, Joh 7:52 They answered and said to him, "Are you also from Galilee? Search and look, for no prophet arises out of Galilee."

They were certain Jesus was not a prophet from God.. based on what? Their interpretation of the Scripture that "no prophet arises out of Galilee". They said to search and look in the Bible (Scriptures) for they were correct and Jesus could not be a prophet of God because the Bible nowhere said that a prophet would arise out of Galilee. (The Scriptures did say that out of BETHLEHEM would come the Chosen One. Remember (Matthew 2) when the wise men came and asked where was He who was born King of the Jews and Herod had a search made? They came back and said "in Bethlehem" and Herod checked the time the star appeared and based on that Herod had all the children under two in Bethlehem killed to try and kill this baby who had been born in Bethlehem at about that time. So, if you remember, Jesus was born in Bethlehem, the angels and wise men worshipped Him there and His family had to flee Herod seeking to kill him there.. They fled to Egypt, then came back to the land and settled in Galilee.. So their interpretation that Jesus was not a prophet because He was from Galilee was wrong, and based on incorrect data and wrong reasoning.)

I do not claim infallibility for my interpretation at all. But I do not think you have the right to claim your interpretation is "rightly dividing the word of truth" while mine is "not reading with understanding.. or knowing how to keep the subject and object in correct relationship", etc. The only difference between us is your belief it happens AFTER the millennium - an assertion you cannot prove to be the Truth because it is a yet-unfulfilled future event. Indeed, Laura's post where General Sada, an Assyrian, worships and serves Christ amidst a people who are greatly opposed to His message is testimony in my mind that God is presently working there and is causing the Assyrians to become His people.. causing the Scripture to come to pass in our time.

And now maybe we should be silent and not debate these interesting points, lest these people begin to erect crosses and seek to crucify us on them.

Sara.

-- August 27, 2006 8:29 AM ∞

---

C1Jim wrote:

I will go on record to say that I am not a big fan of the Bible talk. I have thought about leaving this site and checking back in a few months. Most people would probably not notice, as I don't post much, and when I do it is usually about my own desire to be able to profit from dinar now.

That being said, I am still here for now, and haven't offered to change the topic.

So, anyone have Tivo?

-- August 27, 2006 9:53 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Okie wrote:

"The main reason I think they will RV then develop is because they already have a fortune in the ground and it would be better to have a strong Dinar to buy the goods and services required for development."

----------------------------------------------

Yub, yub........

Carl wrote:

"Ask yourself this...where are all of those people who were on the plane if the plane was not what did the damage...?"

---------------------------------------------------------

Now, I'll preface my statement by saying that I don't watch a LOT of TV...... Now that I think of it, I don't remember many interviews with relatives of people on the flight that crashed into the pentagon. As a matter of fact, I don't recall any........ interesting to me. It's most likely a case of my just having missed it on TV though.......

The video does show an interesting pattern of explosions just below the level of falling debris at the WTC. It's also interesting to note how the buildings fell at all. The physics of the incident just doesn't make sense to me outside of a chain of destabilizing events occuring on the levels below where the planes hit........

Roger should recognize this..... it's a classic center of mass problem.

-- August 27, 2006 10:15 AM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

As violence drops in Baghdad, national reconciliation makes gains.
Sunday, 27 August 2006

BAGHDAD — In a speech to hundreds of tribal leaders on Saturday during the first of four planned national unity conferences, Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki urged the attendees to come together to end the sectarian violence that has plagued the capital city. "Iraq needs all of its sons during this stage,” the prime minister said during the meeting. “There is no difference between Sunnis and Shi'ites. ”According to an Associated Press report, al-Maliki urged the tribes to commit to a national reconciliation plan to end sectarian strife and terrorism. “The national reconciliation is a wide door, open to all those who want to take part in rebuilding the country," said the prime minister.

Pointing to the entrenched role of its tribes in Iraq’s culture and history, al-Maliki invoked their potential to represent social solidarity in the face of terrorists, instigators of sectarian discord and infiltrators through borders. "Liberating the country from any foreign existence and controlling the enemies can't be achieved without a real national unity among Iraqis and this is the role for our tribes," al-Maliki said.

According to the AP report, the unity conferences were envisioned to help heal the deep divisions between the country's major sects. In a Government of Iraq press release, al-Maliki said he was also promoting reconciliation so that no Iraqi citizen would be excluded. According to Iraqi government officials, reconciliation doesn’t mean ending differences among Iraqis by force, but through dialogue and the rejection of violence. “Terror aims to disrupt a united Iraq and destroy the state,” added al-Maliki. “Liberating Iraq from foreign influence will not be done without national unity.”

During his speech, al-Maliki called on Iraq’s Arab neighbors to actively stand against terrorism. “Our country is going through hard times awaiting assistance from brother Arabs to confront terrorists, he said. The prime minister also delivered a message for the terrorists themselves, warning he would not allow them to make Iraq a passageway for terrorist movements or a center of their activities. Rather, al-Maliki said, Iraq would be a place of their tombs. “We are capable of taking part in a comprehensive war against terrorists and dealing harmful blows to them,” he said. “He lives in imagination who thinks he can come back to power from the former regime.” The prime minister’s strong words appeared well received. According to a separate news report, the tribal chiefs in attendance “pledged to work hard to stop the bloodletting and sectarian killings that have gripped Iraq.”

Meanwhile, in Washington, Iraq's Deputy President Adil Abd al-Mahdi met with U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld at the Pentagon on Friday to further discuss Iraq’s country’s commitment to reconciliation. Following a meeting at the Pentagon, Rumsfeld and al-Mahdi spoke with reporters about progress in Iraq. The secretary praised the work of Iraqi security forces, which he said now number more than 267,000. He said there has been a reduction in the levels of violence, particularly in areas U.S. and Iraqi forces have been able to clear. In spite of the gains in security, Rumsfeld stressed the Iraqi people and their government hold the key to long-term stability and security. "The important thing is for the Iraqi government to achieve success with respect to their reconciliation process," he said. "This is not purely a military problem, and it is not going to be solved purely by military forces." Rumsfeld said the Iraqi government is committed to achieving reconciliation among various groups. "Admittedly, it is a lot easier to talk about it than to do it," he said. "It's been done in other countries. I believe it can be achieved here. They're going to have to work very hard on it, and it's going to take some time, but it is a process, not an event."

Al-Mahdi said the process is taking place. The national unity government of Iraq has both a working reconciliation plan and a good plan to secure Baghdad, two steps that counter those who would push Iraq toward a civil war, he said. "At least 20 of the groups are dialoguing now with the government," he said. "We have to see the results. We have to see the impact of this. We are optimistic." The Iraqi government is open to proposals from those willing to put their arms aside and find a solution, al-Mahdi said, but government forces will continue to put pressure on insurgents and terrorists. "The government is stronger than ever," he said. "Our armed forces are getting much better than before in number, in quality, in operations. They are leading operations now."

Al-Mahdi said seventy percent of Iraq is now stable and secure, which makes the Iraqi people "fully optimistic" about their future. "The Iraqi people think that there is no other issue but victory in Iraq," he said. "The Iraqi people can't leave the country. There is no withdrawal for the Iraqi people. The multi-national forces are supporting Iraqi people and will continue to support and have the sympathy of Iraqis."

According to an AP report, Rumsfeld also said the presence of several thousand extra U.S. troops in Baghdad in recent weeks has shown that sectarian violence can be quelled by force of arms. The secretary said a conversation he had with Gen. John Abizaid, the top U.S. commander in the Middle East, and Gen. George Casey, the top commander in Iraq, about events in Baghdad, reinforced his impression that since late July the extra efforts in Baghdad have been successful “in the sense that we're seeing a reduction in the levels of violence and in the numbers of attacks." "There ... is no question but that you can go in and clear out an area and achieve a reduction in violence, and the test is not that," Rumsfeld said. "The test is what happens thereafter.

"http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2423&Itemid=18

-- August 27, 2006 10:30 AM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Wheels of industry start to turn again.
Thursday, 17 August 2006

CAMP LIBERTY — “With unity and security, there will be prosperity,” said Col. Robert Scurlock Jr., 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Armored Division commander in a press conference Wednesday. Another way to improve prosperity is to turn once dormant factories into bustling centers of activity again.

Recently the Multi-National Division – Baghdad assessment team conducted a three-day visit of seven state-owned factories in Baghdad in a continuing effort, coordinated with Coalition forces and the Iraqi government, to help improve local industry. The goal of the operation is to increase the factories’ productivity, which will hopefully lead to an increase in employment, stimulation of the local economies and stability in the local neighborhoods. “The Iraqi government has been very supportive of our efforts,” said Navy Cmdr. Jeff Hensley. He is attached to MND-B’s civil military operations, and leader of the assessment team. “Through our cooperation with the Iraqi Reconstruction Management Office, we have asked and received permission from the Ministry of Industry and Minerals to conduct assessments of their companies. They appear very enthusiastic about the prospect of seeing economic development take hold in Iraq and appreciate our assistance."

In June, the assessment team also visited four other state-owned factories in and around northern Baghdad and plans to continue visiting production plants throughout the MND-B area of operations. “We’re trying to develop an engagement plan specifically tailored to each state-owned production plant,” said Air Force Capt. William Deitch, judge advocate general. Tahseen, an Iraqi factory manager, expressed his excitement and eagerness to work with MND-B toward improving the factory, the local area and the economy. Training in management, marketing, finance and other essential business skills is something that can be facilitated by organic MND-B assets and outside organizations, said Hensley. “In some cases, we can help identify sources of funding for broken or outdated equipment necessary to restart production lines,” said Hensley. There are also other economic advantages that arise from increasing the productivity of these factories, said Hensley. “Many of these companies are anchors in a micro-economy – one frequently plagued by violence and unrest,” explained Hensley. “The economic multiplier effect of additional wages being funneled into the surrounding communities is potentially huge.” Smaller businesses are likely to benefit, generating more business and employment. That is one of the overall goals: to improve security, said Hensley. “We focus on the troubled areas of Baghdad in hopes that an increase in employment will improve the areas’ security,” said Deitch. Supporting employment and boosting the economy helps strengthen and rebuild the infrastructure, he said.

“When a young man is without a job and struggling to feed his family, he’s not likely to have a lot of confidence in the current government of Iraq,” Hensley said. “If that same young man can be gainfully employed in an honorable trade, he is much more likely to turn against those who threaten the country’s stability – like the (terrorists). He becomes part of the solution to this country’s problems instead of part of the problem.” Hensley said the assessment team’s role is a relatively small one in the grand scheme. “My team and I are simply trying to get the ball rolling,” he said. “It will be the managers and the employees of these (factories) that will play the key role in Iraq’s economic development; they are highly motivated to succeed.”

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2203&Itemid=42

-- August 27, 2006 11:02 AM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

ISF paves way for Baghdad security.
Wednesday, 23 August 2006
By Steven Donald Smith
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON — The quick response of Iraqi security forces to terrorist gunmen who opened fire on a large crowd of religious worshipers in Baghdad Aug. 20 demonstrates their improved capabilities, a senior U.S. military officer said Tuesday. “This was a tremendous demonstration of the increased capabilities of the Iraq security forces and the leadership of the Government of Iraq,” Army Maj. Gen. William B. Caldwell IV, a spokesman for Multi-National Force - Iraq, told reporters during a Baghdad news briefing. He said the Iraqi government has shown its commitment to providing the conditions for citizens to practice religious freedom without persecution or attack. To ensure the safety of the participants in the annual pilgrimage to the shrine of eighth-century imam Musa al-Kadhim, Iraqi security forces from the Iraqi National Police, Iraqi Police and Iraqi Army set up a joint operations center enabling them to coordinate efforts, Multi-National Corps - Iraq officials said.

According to MNC-I, the joint forces developed and implemented a comprehensive security plan, which included the establishment of 23 traffic checkpoints around Baghdad and closing off some bridges to control the flow of pedestrian traffic into the Kadhimiyah neighborhood. The government also implemented a vehicle ban in Baghdad Aug. 18 through Aug. 20. Additionally, both Iraqi Sunni and Shiite leaders actively supported the security plan and communicated details of it to the populace to help ensure a peaceful pilgrimage. “Their professionalism in providing safe passage for the participants is a great success story for the government of Iraq and its security forces,” said Maj. Gen. James D. Thurman, commanding general, Multi-National Division - Baghdad. “Their success is a direct result of the coordination and integration efforts of the Iraqi National Police, Iraqi Police and the Iraqi Army. They did an excellent job,” said Thurman.

While initial media reports indicated small-arms attacks by terrorists killed 20 participants and injured upwards of 300, those early numbers included heat casualties. Later figures showed terrorist attacks accounted for the deaths of only seven pilgrims. Twelve more were wounded, in addition to twelve injuries among Iraqi security forces. “More than 99.9 percent of the participants were unharmed and experienced a safe celebration,” MNC-I officials said. Terrorists use such attacks to make the Iraqi government look inept and incapable of protecting its people, Caldwell said. The critical task of providing security in Iraq continues, “not only to rid the county of terrorists and insurgents, but to tackle the problem of violent extremists,” the general added.

Iraqi and Coalition forces continue to pursue people intent on using violence to impose their beliefs on others, he said. Operations by joint forces over the past week resulted in the capture of more than 100 known and suspected al-Qaeda terrorists and associates and multiple weapons caches. “All of these captures have severely disrupted and disorganized the capability of al-Qaeda in Iraq,” Caldwell said.
The captures also enable Iraqi and Coalition forces to better understand the terrorist network and how to best defeat it, he explained. However, capturing terrorists is only the first step in the process of justice. Terrorism suspects are processed through the Iraqi judicial system, from which punishment is meted out. “To date, the central criminal court of Iraq has held 1,365 trials of insurgents suspected of anti-Iraq and anti-coalition activities,” Caldwell said. To date, there have been 1,171 convictions, with sentences ranging up to death.

Meanwhile, Iraqi and Coalition forces also continue to target death squads. Twenty operations were conducted just in the past week specifically against these groups, he said. Operations have been focusing on the most violent areas of Baghdad. As a result, the general said, there has been progress, and economic opportunities are on the rise.
“Every day there are additional shops opening,” he said. “We are cautiously optimistic and encouraged by all the indicators we are seeing. What we are seeing in these areas is life coming back to some normalcy.”

(Compiled from official DOD sources)

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2327&Itemid=42

-- August 27, 2006 11:14 AM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Leaders
Thursday, 20 April 2006

President Jalal Talabani
Born in 1933
Started his political career at the age of 14 when he joined the Kurdistan Democratic Party [KDP] in 1947
A founding member of the Kurdistan Students' Association
Chosen in 1951 as a member of the KDP's central committee
Obtained his BA in law in 1959
Chief editor of two local Kurdish newspapers in the late 1950s
Participated in the Kurdish revolution against former president Abd-al-Karim Qasim
Head of the Kurdish delegation to the 1963 talks with the Iraqi Government under the reign of Abd al-Salam Arif
Defected the KDP in 1964 as a result of differences with KDP's leader Mustafa Barzani
In 1966 Talabani and a number of former KDP members allied with the central government to launch a military campaign against the KDP
A co-founder of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan [PUK], a secular and socialist entity which is believed to have around 25,000 fighters currently
In 1976 the PUK began military action against the central government
Responded to a call by former president Saddam Husayn to begin peace talks in the midst of the in the Iran-Iraq War which were unsuccessful
Fled to Iran in 1988 following the chemical attack launched by the Iraqi Government against the Kurds
The No-Fly Zone imposed by the Allies in the aftermath of the 1991 War furnished the Kurds with a sort of safe haven. Soon afterwards, the KDP, led by Mas'ud Barzani, and PUK, led by Jalal Talabani, agreed to overcome their differences. In 1994, however, the two main Kurdish blocs were engaged in military confrontations against one another. It was not until 1998 that the two parties came to sign a peace treaty in Washington following extensive US and British endeavors in this respect.
After the fall of Baghdad in March 2003, Talabani became a member of the Iraqi Governing Council
Is said to have "very friendly" relations with grand Shiite figure Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani and Abd al-Aziz al-Hakim, head of the Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq
Known for his stand against the death penalty
Has maintained that multinational forces should remain in Iraq as any premature pullback would lead to "a disaster"
Has called for allowing armed groups to become involved in the political process
He was elected Iraq's new president on April 6 2005, but expressed dissatisfaction with his presidential powers, demanding more
Talabani calls for federalism in Iraq
Holds that "terrorism in Iraq can be defeated this year if Iraq succeeds in forming a national-unity government"
Is known to support in democracy, inter-ethnic harmony, equality and women's rights

Vice President Adil Abd-al-Mahdi
Born in Baghdad in 1942
The second most important figure at the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq [SCIRI]
Adopted several political ideologies: a former Ba'thist, a Mawi Marxist, an Islamist, and then finally a liberal economic approach
Received higher education in France
Played a key role in talks to write off Iraqi debts following the fall of the regime
Assumed the post of finance minister in the Allawi-led cabinet
Believes that the presence of US forces is essential to enhance Iraqi forces in the face of "insurgency." He also believes that the US troops should not withdraw from Iraq except when "there is no security vacuum and furthermore when Iraqi potentials are solid enough to provide the Iraqis with security."
Son of the minister of education during the reign of King Faysal I in the 1920s
Said that he was widely influenced by the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran
An advocate of federalism which he says represents "the perfect solution for Iraq."
Had previously worked for a number of research centers in France, including the French Institute for Islamic Studies
Chief editor of several Arab and French-speaking newspapers and author of a number of books
Left Iraq after he was sentenced to death because of his political activity
Lived in France beginning in 1969
SCIRI's representative in Kurdistan 1992 - 1996
A member of the former Governing Council
Selected as vice president following the January 2005 elections as a representative of the Shiite slate; re-elected vice president following the December 2005 elections.
Is said to represent a strong secular current within the Unified Iraqi Coalition
Is said to promote a version of political Islam that is more moderate than the Iranian model
Believes that the Shiite religious authority should have a role to play in running the affairs of the country, but should also allow democratic policies to participate
Has argued that there is "a slim chance for the birth of an Islamic state in Iraq;"
A co-founder of SCIRI in the 1980s in Iran;
Lost a brother, who was an advisor to the Iraqi Prime Minister, in an attack in October 2005
Spokesperson for SCIRI
Has four children all of whom are French citizens
A strong supporter of the market-oriented economy as well as of decentralization
Is said to enjoy good relations with US National Security members
Says that he was influenced by the biographies of Ghandi, Winston Churchill, and Al-Khumayni

Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi
Born in Baghdad in 1942
Comes from the Mashhadan tribe
Grandson of a former general in the Ottoman Army, and nephew of King Ghazi's tutor
Attended the military academy between 1959 - 1962
Took part in a number of military training sessions in England, Czech Republic, and India
An instructor at the Leadership Academy in 1975
Gave up his military career at the age of 33
Is known not to have joined the Ba'th Party
In 1969 he obtained a BA in economics at Al-Mustansiriyah University
Received his MA in economics in 1978
Manager of the Iraq branch of the Arab Shipping Co [ASC] from 1979 - 1981
Moved to Kuwait where he was appointed ASC's director general until 1990 when he had to return to Iraq after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait
He describes himself as one who has wide experience in planning and management and as "a good reader who has a keen eye and is in ceaseless quest for wisdom"
"In 2004, I was invited to lead the Iraqi Islamic Party [a Sunni entity which was established in 1960 and evolved from the Muslim Brotherhood Movement]. I did not plan for it, but this is the will of God. I was affiliated with the party since my tender years but had to suspend my activity because of my military career. I resumed membership after I retired from the army," he says.
A member of the planning committee and the Shura council of the Iraqi Islamic Party until he was elected secretary general in June 2004
A member of the Al-Tawafuq [Accord] Front, a bloc comprising three leading Sunni parties
Is known to reject the Iraqi constitution
Adopts an anti-federalism stand as he thinks it will divide the country
In April 2006, he lost his brother and his sister in two separate attacks in Baghdad
In an interview he had with Al-Iraqiyah television in March 2006, Al-Hashimi hailed the dissolved Ba'th party, saying that it achieved "an unprecedented economic development in Iraq over the 1970s

Prime Minister Nouri Al-Maliki
Born in 1950 in a Karbala villageHolds an MA in Arabic
Formerly employed at the Ministry of Education
A member of Al-Da'wah Party since 1968
Left Iraq in 1980 after Saddam Husayn banned Al-Da'wah Party and after he was sentenced to death in absentia
Moved to Iran where he acted against the Iraqi regime
Head of the Jihadist Current within Al-Da'wah Party
Moved to Syria after he refused to fight with the Iranian Army against the Iraqi Army during the war
Head of the Al-Da'wah Party's offices in Syria and Lebanon
Former chief editor of Al-Mawqif newspaper, the mouthpiece of Al-Da'wah Party
Member of the political bureau of Al-Da'wah Party
Described as a "pragmatic politician"
Said to enjoy good relations with most former Iraqi opposition parties
Is said to represent the Arab identity of Al-Da'wah Party and is known not to take a pro-Iranian stand
Took up a number of positions after the fall of the regime: head of the "security committee" at the Iraqi National Assembly; spokesman for the Iraqi Unified Coalition; member of the Sovereignty Committee at the National Assembly
An advocate of Kurdish demands to normalize matters in Kirkuk

Speaker of the Iraqi House of Represntatives Mahmud al-Mashhadani
Full name is Mahmud Dawud Salman Musa Zurayr al-Mashhadani
Born in Al-Kazimiyah
Completed primary, elementary, and secondary education in Al-Kazimiyah
Admitted to the Faculty of Medicine at Baghdad University
Graduated in 1972 with the rank of first lieutenant as a resident physician
Climbed the ladder of military ranks until he became a major
He was the commander of the seventh field medical unit and then the commander of the sixth field medical unit
Three months after the outbreak of the Iraq-Iran war, he was arrested with a group of his companions, who were then activists in the Islamic current, for opposing the Iran-Iraq War
Sentenced to two years of imprisonment on charges of promoting ideas against the public trend as well as against the [Ba'th] Party and the Revolutionary Command Council [RCC]
He was released from jail after a year and a half for good conduct. However, he was dismissed from the army and had all assets confiscated. Furthermore, he was banned from traveling.
After the travel ban against him was lifted at a later time, he traveled to Kurdistan, where he says he "met with the Islamic movement figures, led by Shaykh Ali Abd-al-Aziz."
He was sentenced to death in 2000 following acts of disturbance, but the sentence was commuted to 15 years of imprisonment because the head of the Revolutionary Court could not find hard evidence that he committed a crime punishable by the death penalty. He spent two years in prison only because he was released in "the year of amnesty."
A co-founder of the Higher Council for Call and Guidance and head of its political bureau A co-founder of the Iraqi National Dialogue Council [NDC], which contributed to the establishment of the Iraqi Front for National Dialogue

First Deputy Speaker Khalid al-Atiyah
Comes from Al-Humaydat Tribe in Al-Shamiyah District
Born in 1949
Finished secondary education in Baghdad in 1970, he was admitted to the Jurisprudence College in Holy Al-Najaf where he pursued his religious studies
A student of Imam Muhammad Baqir al-Sadr and Imam Al-Sayyid Abu-al-Qasim al-Khu'i. Arrested during the regime of Saddam Husayn in 1972, 1974, and 1975. He immigrated to Egypt in 1979 before traveling to Lebanon, Latin America, and the United Kingdon.
In 1980, he obtained a diploma in literary studies from the Dar al-'Ulum Faculty, at the Cairo University; a masters degree in literary studies in 1985; and a diploma in literary studies from the Saint Joseph University in Lebanon.
He has worked at various religious, cultural, and academic centers and institutions in Iran, Lebanon, and Britain.
A professor and head of the Department of Islamic Studies at the Oxford Academy for Higher Education from 2000 to 2004 Returned to Iraq after the fall of the regime

Second Deputy Speaker Arif Tayfur
Descends from the family of Sadiq al-Sarqalu, one of the notables of the Barzanja Tribe
Born in 1945 in Al-Sulaymaniyah
Completed his secondary education in Al-Sulaymaniyah, where he studied law and graduated in 1971
Became a member of the Kurdistan Democratic Party [KDP] in Baghdad after his graduation
He was affiliated with the Kurdistan Students Union in 1958 and became member of the KDP in 1963 He joined the Kurdish revolution in 1973.
After the revolution he went to Iran and worked on rearranging the leadership of the revolution and the KDP
A leading member of the KDP where worked at the KDP Political Bureau until 2000
After the fall of the regime, he came to Baghdad and became head of the KDP branch in Baghdad
Member of the Iraqi National Assembly and deputy speaker

Minister of Defense Abdul Qadir Mohammed Jasim
Graduate of Military College 1969 – worked in armored division until assuming post of Armored Division Commander
Commander of armored brigade during Iran-Iraq war
Opposed invasion of Kuwait in 1991, was stripped of all posts and responsibilities, was referred to retirement in 1992, arrested and tried by special court martial in 1994, sentenced to seven years imprisonment with all properties confiscated, personal house was returned after coalition toppling of regime in 2003
Participated in the new Iraqi army as head of the ground forces
Currently unaffiliated with any political party

Minister of Interior Jawad al-Bolani
Born in Baghdad 1960 with family origins in Diwaniya
Graduate of Mechanical Engineering Department at the University of Technology
Worked as an Engineer in the Iraqi Air Force until 1999
Acting member of the Governing Council
Member of the water committee in previous parliament
Not currently a member of any political party

Minister of State for National Security Shirwan al-Waili
Born in Thi-Qar 1957
Graduate of Military Engineering College 1979
Worked in the Military Works Division in building military camps and other military construction mission. Did not participate in any military operations
Was detained during the 1991 uprising
Retired as Brig. Gen. in 2000
Studied Law at Basra University
Acting member of the Governing Council
Served as an Advisor for regional affairs for the National Security Portfolio
Served as member of the Constitutional Committee in the previous parliament
Not currently a member of any political party

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=10

-- August 27, 2006 11:48 AM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Kidnapped Fox News Journalists Freed...

Aug 27, 8:55 AM (ET)

By IBRAHIM BARZAK

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) - Militants freed two Fox News journalists on Sunday in the Gaza Strip, ending a nearly two week hostage drama in which one of the former captives said they were forced at gunpoint to make statements, including that they had converted to Islam.

Correspondent Steve Centanni, 60, of Washington, D.C., and cameraman Olaf Wiig, 36, of New Zealand, were dropped off at Gaza City's Beach Hotel by Palestinian security officials. A tearful Centanni briefly embraced a Palestinian journalist in the lobby, then rushed upstairs with Wiig behind him. The pair, who appeared to be in good health, then met with Palestinian officials, including Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh. The three men sat in a circle of chairs at the hotel, before the journalists held a news conference, then left and crossed into Israel. "I want to thank everybody. I am happy to be here. I hope that this never scares a single journalist away from coming to Gaza to cover the story because the Palestinian people are very beautiful and kind hearted," Centanni told reporters. "The world needs to know more about them. Don't be discouraged." Wiig also said he was worried that the kidnapping would scare off reporters. "My biggest concern really is that as a result of what happened to us foreign journalists will be discouraged from coming to tell the story and that would be a great tragedy for the people of Palestine," Wiig said. "You guys need us on the streets, and you need people to be aware of the story."

Wiig's wife, Anita McNaught, thanked Palestinian officials and Fox News for their efforts in getting the men released. The men refused to take questions, then traveled to the Erez and left Gaza. In a phone call with Fox News, Centanni said that during his capture, he was held at times face down in a dark garage, tied up in painful positions, and that he and Wiig were forced at gunpoint to make statements, including that they had converted to Islam. "I'm a little emotional because this is overwhelming, but I'm fine," Centanni said. "I'm so happy to be freed."

The journalists had been seized in Gaza City on Aug. 14 by a previously unknown group calling itself the Holy Jihad Brigades. However, senior Palestinian security officials said Sunday the name was a front for local militants, and that Palestinian authorities had known the identity of the kidnappers from the start. Haniyeh also confirmed the kidnappers were from Gaza, squashing speculation that al-Qaida had directed the abduction. "The kidnappers have no link to al-Qaida or any other organization or faction," Haniyeh said. "Al-Qaida as an organization does not exist in the Gaza Strip."

In the past two years, Palestinian militants have seized more than two dozen foreigners, usually to settle personal scores, but released them unharmed within hours. The Fox journalists had been held longest. It remained unclear whether the kidnappers had ties to Hamas or the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a violent offshoot of Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah movement. A third group, the Popular Resistance Committees, claimed Sunday it had helped mediate the release of the journalists.

In chaotic Gaza, gunmen often change their affiliation or form splinter groups. Their agendas are often driven by personal issues, including jobs and power for their clans, rather than by ideology. Haniyeh was evasive Sunday when asked whether he would try to arrest the kidnappers. Before Hamas ousted Fatah in March, it had frequently criticized the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority for cutting deals with kidnappers and letting them go without punishment. It was not clear whether a deal had been struck with the kidnappers of the Fox journalists. The kidnappers initially demanded the release of all Muslims imprisoned by the U.S. by midnight Saturday (5 p.m. EDT) in exchange for the journalists.

The Hamas-led Palestinian Authority had insisted it had no clue about the identity of the kidnappers. However, in recent days, Hamas government officials signaled that the release of the journalists was imminent and that they had won assurances from the kidnappers that the hostages were being treated well.

On Sunday, before the journalists' release, a new video was released, showing Wiig and Centanni dressed in beige Arab-style robes. Wiig delivered an anti-Western speech, his face expressionless and his tone halting. The kidnappers claimed both men had converted to Islam. Several hours later, the two men were dropped off at the Beach Hotel, wearing Western-style clothing. Wiig walked into the lobby behind Centanni, briefly turned when someone pulled him by the arm and shouted "get off" before heading upstairs. "We were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint," Centanni later told Fox. "Don't get me wrong here. I have the highest respect for Islam, and I learned a lot of good things about it, but it was something we felt we had to do because they had the guns, and we didn't know what the hell was going on."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060827/D8JOPCEO0.html

-- August 27, 2006 12:13 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Outlaw,

Thankyou for good info, it's those changes in Iraq that will pave the way for our own prosperity.

I wish I could be there on the streets myself and pick up the flair of the changes, how much it affects the Iraqi people, and how they look upon it.

In absense of that, reports like that, shows me that they have passed the bottom of the barrel, AND ARE ON THE WAY UP.

Still for a couple of months, the idea that they are close to civil war, Iraq is a failure and we should cut and run, will probably have some life in them.

Nelly B,

Was listening to my satellite radio some weeks ago. There was an interview with a guy writing a book debunking all these 9/11 conspiracies.

Sorry it's a some time ago, cant remember either the guys mane or the book, but I remember when he was interviewed how impressed I was with all the actual research he had done on the subject.

The Pentagon missile conspiracy, started with an interview from a wittnes.

The wittnes was interviewed afterwards by the author of the book, and this is what happened.

Conspiracy theorists claimed that there was no wittnesess to the airplane flying into the Pentagon, but there was wittneses seing a missile.

That was all wrong, there was plenty plenty of whitnesses seing the airplane, it just was never caught on video as the two airplanes that flew into the Twin Towers.

This particular whittnes told the investigators, and reporters at the time, that as he was very close to the flightpath, and not far from the impact site, he could see the airplane, the airline logos on the airplane, windows and faces in the window. the plane came in and slammed the Pentagon straight like a kamikaze , almost like a missile.

Within a day or so , a French opinion blabber told the world that no one have seen an airplane, but that there was whitnesses telling that they saw a missile.

Once it starts, it's almost impossible to get rid of, now it was a missile, and some people, unable to see things as they are, must invent complex and intruiging stories.

I'm sure you can still twenty years after this, still run into people that will tell you the "hidden truth" and explain about the missile.

If you run an airplane into the ground, some physical phenomenon will take place.

If you have x ammount of mass before the impact, you WILL have a tremenous less ammount afterwards.

A large ammount of material from an airplane will simply evaporate into heat.

Steve can probably explain that with more detail.

A test have been made where they wanted to see how much of concrete protection they needed around a nuclear powerplant to have enough protection from a suicide diving aircraft.

They took an old Phantom jet, put it on a sled, put rockets on it and accelerated it up to supersonic speed, and ran it straight into a big huge square concrete block. The stop was immediate, when it hit that flat surface.

The material found afterwards could be carried by a small petite woman.

The rest of the material was transformed into a ball of heat.

Because of all those Conspiracy theorists, still today a survey shows that about 40% of the US population thinks that the US goverment had a hand in the 9/11.

The conspiracy theorists, have their own agenda, they try to undermine the truth, and would love to see the goverment fall.

What the actual agenda is, I dont have a clue, but I suspect the theorists commonly are antisocial individuals, that in your life continously try to harm you in any imagiable way. Sometimes they happen to be in jail, but most often they are floating around like losers on the ourside.

In my world, a criminal is not necessarily a person that you can locate in a jailcell. As long as they can make you uncertain, get doubts, be upset, leave you with hopelessness or despair, stopped you or hinder you, those people have done their job.

It doesnt matter if the goverment will fall, the Democrats will be in goverment, the conspiracy theorist will again continue to do the same thing.

The fact that a bunch of terrorists pulled off the hijacking and flew those planes into our buildings, killing a lot of innocent people, is just far too simple to understand.

-- August 27, 2006 12:51 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Defying U.N., Iran Opens Nuclear Reactor.

Aug 26, 7:58 AM (ET)

By ALI AKBAR DAREINI

KHONDAB, Iran (AP) - An Iranian plant that produces heavy water officially went into operation on Saturday, despite U.N. demands that Tehran stop the activity because it can be used to develop a nuclear bomb. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad inaugurated the plant, which Tehran says is for peaceful purposes.

The announcement comes days before Thursday's U.N. deadline for Iran to stop uranium enrichment - which also can be used to create nuclear weapons - or face economic and political sanctions. Tehran has called the U.N. Security Council resolution "illegal" and said it won't stop enrichment as a precondition to negotiations. Mohammed Saeedi, the deputy head of the Atomic Energy Organization of Iran, said the heavy water plant is "one of the biggest nuclear projects" in the country, state-run television reported. He said the plant will be used in the pharmaceutical field and in diagnosing cancer. The plant's top official, Manouchehr Madadi, said the facility has the ability to produce up to 16 tons of heavy water a year.

Iran has been a building a heavy water reactor near the plant for two years, but the reactor is not scheduled for completion until 2009. Nuclear weapons can be produced using either plutonium or highly enriched uranium as the explosive core. Either substance can be produced in the process of running a reactor. Reactors fueled by enriched uranium use regular - or "light" - water as a "moderator" in the chain reaction that produces energy. Reactors using "heavy water" contain a heavier hydrogen particle, which allows the reactor to run on natural uranium mined by Iran, foregoing the enrichment progress. But the spent fuel from a heavy water reactor can be reprocessed to extract plutonium for use in a bomb.

The West's main worry has been uranium enrichment. Iran on Tuesday responded to an incentives package presented by the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council plus Germany aimed at getting Tehran to roll back its disputed nuclear program. Iran said it would be open to negotiations but did not agree to the West's key demand for Tehran to halt uranium enrichment as a precondition to talks.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060826/D8JO3EQ00.html

-- August 27, 2006 1:19 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Iran Test-Fires Sub-To-Surface Missile.

Aug 27, 10:07 AM (ET)

By ALI AKBAR DAREINI

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - Iran test fired a new submarine-to-surface missile during war games in the Persian Gulf on Sunday, a show of military might amid a standoff with the West over its nuclear activities. A brief video clip showed the long-range missile, called Thaqeb, or Saturn, exiting the water and hitting a target on the water's surface within less than a mile. The test came as part of large-scale military exercises that began Aug. 19. "The army successfully test fired a top speed long-range sub-to-surface missile off the Persian Gulf," the navy commander, Gen. Sajjad Kouchaki, said on state-run television.

Iran routinely has held war games over the past two decades to improve its combat readiness and to test equipment including missiles, tanks and armored personnel carriers. But Sunday's firing of the missile came as Iran remains defiant just five days before a deadline imposed by the U.N. Security Council for Tehran to suspend the enrichment of uranium, which can produce both reactor fuel and material usable in nuclear warheads.

Iran said last week it is open to negotiations but it refused any immediate suspension, calling the deadline illegal. Tehran has expressed worry about Israeli threats to destroy its nuclear facilities, which the West contends could be used to make a bomb but which Iran insists are for the peaceful purpose of generating electricity. The Islamic country also is concerned about the U.S. military presence in neighboring Iraq and Afghanistan. In an advance for Iran's weapons industry, the Thaqeb is the country's first sub-fired missile that leaves the water to strike its target, adding to the country's repertoire of weapons that can hit ships in the Gulf.

Iran's current arsenal includes several types of torpedoes - including the "Hoot," Farsi for "whale," which was tested for the first time in April, capable of moving at some 223 mph, up to four times faster than a normal torpedo. Kouchaki said the Thaqeb could be fired from any vessel and could escape enemy radar. He said it was built based on domestic know-how, although outside experts say much of the country's missile technology originated from other countries like Russia and China. He did not give the weapon's range. It did not appear capable of carrying a nuclear warhead.

Iran already is equipped with the Shahab-3 missile, which means "shooting star" in Farsi, and is capable of carrying a nuclear warhead. An upgraded version of the ballistic missile has a range of more than 1,200 miles and can reach Israel and U.S. forces in the Middle East. Last year, former Defense Minister Ali Shamkhani said Tehran successfully had tested a solid fuel motor for the Shahab-3, which was considered a technological breakthrough for the country's military. Solid fuel dramatically increases the accuracy of a missile while a liquid fuel missile is not very accurate in hitting targets.

Iran's military test-fired a series of missiles during large-scale war games in the Persian Gulf in March and April, including a missile it claimed was not detectable by radar and can use multiple warheads to hit several targets simultaneously. After decades of relying on foreign weapons purchases, Iran's military has been working to boost its domestic production of armaments. Since 1992, Iran has produced its own tanks, armored personnel carriers, missiles and a fighter plane, the government has said. It announced in early 2005 that it had begun production of torpedoes.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060827/D8JOQED80.html

-- August 27, 2006 1:52 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

POL-IRAQ-DEBAATHIFICATION
Iraqi Vice President demands further activation of debaathification

BAGHDAD, Aug 27 (KUNA) -- Iraqi Vice President Tariq Al-Hashimi on Sunday demanded the interference of the Supreme Judicial Council to re-examine the legitimacy of the "debaathification" committee and the decisions it made until now. Al-Hashimi's remarks were enclosed in a letter which KUNA viewed and was sent to the Iraqi President Jalal Talabani on 24th of August. Al-Hashimi said that a re-assessment of the committee was required, in order to support the mission of the national reconciliation initiative. The committee, he added, was not "legitimate" due to the nonexistence of a law that legalized its activities in the current government.

The Iraqi high ranking official stated that no law was issued to regulate the committee's jurisdictions as a constitutional committee so far, which made all its resolutions unconstitutional since its establishment in July 2004. Al-Hashimi added that the committee director could not reassign the committee without clear authorities. (end) mhg.

http://www.kuna.net.kw/Home/Story.aspx?Language=en&DSNO=899828

-- August 27, 2006 2:12 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Iraqi tribal conference stresses support to national reconciliation.

BAGHDAD, Aug 27 (KUNA) -- Over 600 tribal leaders and representatives of clans of all Iraqi sects and ethnic groups, who began a meeting on Saturday in Baghdad, have stressed their support to the national reconciliation initiative of prime minister Nouri Al-Maliki. The participating leaders said in their statement they supported this initiative and called on everybody to adhere to it. The prime minister organized the conference in order to promote his national reconciliation initiative of last June amongst the country's various tribes. The initiative was approved by the Iraqi national assembly over a month ago.

The conferees also called for re-assessment of debaathification law while urging the national assembly to legislate a law in this respect and release those who have not been convicted. They also called for building the Iraqi police and army forces as a prelude to the withdrawal of foreign troops from Iraq as well as condemning what was termed as the "irresponsible behaviours of the coalition forces", while stressing the need to lift the immunity on them.

For its part, the three Iraqi leaderships -- presidency, premiership and national assembly -- praised outcome of the tribal meeting as the initial step towards national reconciliation. Meanwhile, Al-Maliki, who spoke before the conference yesterday, reiterated the importance of the participation of Iraq's tribes in promoting the success of the national reconciliation plan. "The liberation of the nation from foreign influence is not possible without the existence of a national consensus," he added. The prime minister said that the conference, held under the sponsorship of the Higher Authority for National Reconciliation, seeks to involve all those political and religious entities which have not partaken in Iraq's new political processes. (end) ahh.

http://www.kuna.net.kw/Home/Story.aspx?Language=en&DSNO=899789

-- August 27, 2006 2:22 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Iraqi MP set free, meets PM Maliki -- TV

BAGHDAD, Aug 26 (KUNA) -- Tayseer Al-Mashhadani, a female Iraqi MP, was released from her abductors and would be meeting with Prime Minister Nouri Al-Maliki in Baghdad, according to the Iraqi TV Saturday. -- The TV reported that MP Mashhadani was freed earlier today and was in a good health condition. It did not mention whether she was released in a military operation or not.

It added the lawmaker met Prime Minister Maliki in his office. Shatha Al-Obeidi, an MP representing the Tawafuq front, confirmed to KUNA the release of Mashhadani.

Vice-President Tareq Al-Hashemi said some a month ago that an armed group was holding Mashhadani and that the abductors were demanding a timetable for the withdrawal of foreign troops and release of prisoners in US jails. Mashhadani was kidnapped on July 1 while she was heading from Diyala to Baghdad. (end) mhg.

http://www.kuna.net.kw/Home/Story.aspx?Language=en&DSNO=899584

-- August 27, 2006 2:27 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Annan to support Iraqi govt. during his visit to Baghdad this week.

BAGHDAD, Aug 26 (KUNA) -- United Nations (UN) Secretary General Kofi Annan will support the government's national conciliation plan during his visit to the country this week, a government source said on Saturday. Al-Sabah newspaper quoted the source as saying "Annan will meet President Jalal Talabani, Prime Minister Nori Al-Maliki as well as several senior officials to discuss this issue".

Meanwhile, Al-Maliki opened a national conciliation conference for tribal leaders which was attended by 600 guests. "Iraq's independence from foreign influence can only be achieved by national unity," said the senior official during the opening speech. The Iraqi Premier pointed out that the country's wealth would not be spent on waging wars against neighboring states, and should be solely spent for the welfare of the people of Iraq. "Iraq will not become the base of terrorism in the region. This will not happen after Iraq discovered freedom and democracy," added the Minister.

Annan's visit is the first to the country since the Baath Party deposal and the establishment of the new government as well as the enacting of a new constitution. The UN top official earlier welcomed Al-Maliki's national conciliation plan announced in June. The international organization's contribution in Iraq's came through the United Nations Assistance Mission for Iraq (UNAMI). UNAMI adopted an international convention to assist the Middle Eastern country economically and politically. (end) mhg.

http://www.kuna.net.kw/Home/Story.aspx?Language=en&DSNO=899489

-- August 27, 2006 2:35 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Rumsfeld says violence in Iraq reducing

WASHINGTON, Aug 25 (KUNA) -- US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Friday praised the Iraqi and US troops for bringing down the level of violence in Iraq. In a statement to reporters after a meeting with Iraqi vice President Adel AbdulMahdi, Rumsfeld said the US troops will continue to provide all kinds of assistance to the Iraqi troops to quell violence that has increased in the past few months. "They have been successful in the sense that we are seeing a reduction in the levels of violence, and in the numbers of attacks, in the areas particularly that the forces have been able to clear.

"Iraqi forces have been doing a very good job," he said. His talks with AbdulMahdi tackled the security situation in Iraq and the ongoing efforts to upgrade the capabilities of the Iraqi security forces to take charge of the security responsibilities. AbdulMahdi is in Washington for an official visit where he already met with US President George Bush and the National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley.

He rejected reports that Iraq is on the verge, or moving towards a civil war, saying the country could not fall into a civil war while the security situation was improving. (end) sa.

http://www.kuna.net.kw/Home/Story.aspx?Language=en&DSNO=899397

-- August 27, 2006 2:42 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Investors in new Iraqi dinar spur thriving Web trade.
By John Waggoner, USA TODAY

Iraqis are serving dinars — and investors are flocking to the table.

The new Iraqi dinar, introduced in October, is now virtually worthless: It takes 1,460 dinars to equal $1, according to Bloomberg financial news service. (Related: Check the latest exchange rates at USATODAY.com). But dinar trade is thriving on the Internet. Internet auctioneer eBay, for example, lists 622 auctions of new Iraqi dinars, in lots from 1,000 to 5 million. Dozens of Web sites, such as www.BuyDinarsHere.com, www.DinarTrade.com and www.InvestInDinar.com, sell dinars to U.S. investors.

The lure: Investors remember that the Kuwaiti dinar plunged to 10 cents after Iraq invaded Kuwait. It's worth $3.39 now. The Iraqi dinar sold for as much as $3 before the first Gulf War. And Iraq sits on the world's second-largest oil reserves, an enormous asset. "Even if it goes up to one penny per dinar, that's a lot of money," says Mahmoud Shalabi, president of SilverDinar.com.

Currently, a 250,000 dinar note is worth about $171. At a penny per dinar, the same note would be worth $2,500.

Interest has cooled since the U.S. handed power to the Iraqis. "Before the handover of Iraq, business was phenomenal," says Marshall Donnerbauer, president of InvestInDinar.com. "All the soldiers and contractors wanted to be investors before that." The insurgency hasn't helped business. "It depends on the news," says Katja Morgenstern, president of Dinar Trading Company, which runs www.buydinar.com. "If it's a bad week, business is slow."

Risks for investors are enormous. If Iraq inflates its currency or otherwise devalues it, dinars could get demolished. Further civil strife also could clobber the currency. Speculators who bought dinars early are sitting on big losses. Other problems:

•Pricing. Dinar exchange rates vary widely, and only large institutions can get 1,460 dinars to the dollar. Dinar Trading Company offered 1 million dinars for $1,345 Monday. Dinar Trade offered 1 million dinars for $1,050. "There are lots of different prices around," says Shalabi. "Everyone has his own price."

•Liquidity. Most dealers who sell dinars won't buy them, and U.S. banks won't buy them either. You can, however, sell dinars on eBay. Monday, 1 million dinars were being offered for $840 to $940.

•Fraud. Unlike the worthless Saddam-era dinars, new dinars are difficult to counterfeit. But some investors have ordered dinars from unscrupulous dealers and never received them, Morgenstern says.

Donnerbauer says there's a side benefit to holding millions of dinars. "I'm not a rich guy," he says. "But it's a good way to simulate being rich."

http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/2004-08-03-dinars_x.htm

-- August 27, 2006 2:56 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Hezbollah head didn't foresee such a war!

By ZEINA KARAM, Associated Press Writer
42 minutes ago

BEIRUT, Lebanon - Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah said in a TV interview aired Sunday that he would not have ordered the capture of two Israeli soldiers if he had known it would lead to such a war. Hezbollah guerrillas killed three Israeli soldiers and seized two more in a cross-border raid July 12, which sparked 34 days of fighting that ended Aug. 14. Five other Israeli soldiers were killed as they pursued the militants back into Lebanon.

"We did not think, even 1 percent, that the capture would lead to a war at this time and of this magnitude. You ask me, if I had known on July 11 ... that the operation would lead to such a war, would I do it? I say no, absolutely not," he said in an interview with Lebanon's New TV station. Nasrallah also said the United Nations and Italy already had initiated "contacts" about beginning negotiations on a prisoner swap.

Israeli officials have been refusing to comment on the record about the prospects of a prisoner exchange, citing the extreme sensitivity of the issue. But military officials said earlier this month that Israel is holding 13 Hezbollah prisoners and the bodies of dozens of guerrillas that it could swap for the two captive soldiers, but would not include any Palestinian prisoners in such a deal.

"The Israelis have acknowledged that this (issue) is headed for negotiations and a (prisoners) exchange," he said. "Contacts recently began for negotiations." He said Italy and the United Nations had made contacts to help mediate a prisoner swap with Israel, but did not specify whether they had contacted Hezbollah directly.

"The Italians seem to be getting close and are trying to get into the subject. The United Nations is iterested," Nasrallah said. The guerrilla leader did not specify in which capacity Italy had expressed interest — on its own or on Israel's behalf. Nasrallah said Lebanese Parliament Speaker Nabih Berri was in charge of the negotiations. He added that the subject would be discussed during U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan's visit to Beirut on Monday. He said "some contacts" had been made to arrange a meeting between him and Annan, but that it was unlikely for security reasons. Nasrallah went into hiding on the first day of the war and his whereabouts are unknown.

He said in the interview Sunday that he had no doubt that the Israelis "would not hesitate" to kill him if they knew where he was hiding. Nasrallah also said he did not believe a second bout of fighting would break out with Israel. "The current Israeli situation, and the available givens tell us that we are not heading to another round," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060827/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_nasrallah

-- August 27, 2006 3:10 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Some...
of the neatest times of your life will be spent with some of the strangest people doing and talking about things you never thought would cross your mind ....much less do...

I saw that quote and thought of the writers on this board

-- August 27, 2006 6:23 PM ∞

---

Robert wrote:

Hey Outlaw,

Thanx for the good postings.

I especially like the one
that was titled:

Investors in new Iraqi dinar spur thriving Web trade.
By John Waggoner, USA TODAY

This article is over two years old and shows that in over two years, that not one thing has changed, regarding the Iraqi dinar's value. It makes me go down memory lane a little:

Remember the "Larue" principle?

Remember the guy spilling the beans to his girl-friend during a sexual encounter, telling her the Iraqi dinar was going to peg at 39 cents to the dinar in March(?) of LAST year?

Remember Clay and his prophecies?

Remember God knows how many "peg" dates that we have heard?

Remember.......

Thanks for posting that article, Outlaw. It shows that some things have changed, but the Iraqi dinar stays the same. I guess there is a silver lining: At least, it hasn't gotten any worse in value. That shows something good - I think. Ahhhh, those sweet memories!

-- August 27, 2006 6:43 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I really think the coalition will have to deal with Sadr sooner or later....and sooner might be the best choice. We need to figure out a way to send him to La La land without creating too many waves.

============================================================================

Even Shi'ite leaders who didn't live in Iran have close ties to their co-sectarians and have condemned U.S. efforts to pressure Tehran into abandoning its nuclear program. The radical cleric Moqtada al-Sadr has warned that if the U.S. launches a military campaign against Iran, his militia, the Mahdi Army, will fight shoulder to shoulder with the Iranians.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1333861,00.html

-- August 27, 2006 6:55 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Trying to figure out the smartest move.

A smart teenager went to South America, and explored some old mines, found caps and dynamite, and stashed into his flight luggage. He's is reportedly very supprised that the autorities are so serious about it. Whats wrong with that, why cant I have caps and dynamite in my luggage?

Two Fox journalists are freed, from a new name Islamic Organisation. But before they were freed, they had to convert to Islam....at gunpoint.

I remeber in the sixties, when the Beatles hit, as a result thousands of garage bands turned up, with all kinds of exotic names.

They did all kind of stunts to be recognized, played on rooftops, on big boyus in harbors, on trucks rolling through a city, anything to get attention.

The name of the bands was more colorful than the other band.

Seems like the arabs Beatles is Al Qaida, and kids are trying to come up with terror groups that will outdo them, calling themselves a lot of holy names, kidnap someone, have a hooded fifteen minutes of fame on AlJaazera, while they read some proclamation of some sort.

Guess it's cool to be a terrorist over there. Their way of protesting perhaps.

Looking back at the rethoric of the protest movements, it was a pretty naive and childish approach to many of the issues. Sometimes it didnt really matter what they were protesting against, as long as they could protest.

-"What are you protesting about?"
-"I dont know, what a ya got?"

-- August 27, 2006 7:08 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Okie,

The Head On A Pike, principle would work very good with Sadr.

In historic days, when a ruler had trouble with something, he got the loudest opponent publicly hanged or beheaded.

Pirate captains was hanged and left to rot in a cage for everybody to see at the harbor.

If a casle or fort was built and the slave labour couldnt get a big stone up there, ONE was taken out, and killed, suddenly all the slaves found renewed strenght, and the stone came into place.

By necessity of survival, ethical and moral behavior is changed, when consequenses of being opposite will result in death.

It's avery good sign that the different groups in Iraq is coming together, and are talking things trough. They show that they are even though not fully agreeing with each other, TRYING to do whats best for all.

However when a caracter like Sadr openly are defying the goals of the Iraq goverment, and in his mind he believes that he have his own nation within the nation, declaring loyalty to other countries, he need to be THE HEAD ON THE PIKE.

With some you can talk but if you cant talk, find an axe. He is a blatant traitor to Iraq. He is declaring himself and his forces loyal to Iran.

I dont understand the Iraqs wussiness, carefulness, and inability to deal with him. I dont even know if they are coached by our guys, to take it easy and follow their plan.

I would show up in great force, occipying the whole Sadr city starting at 2AM. There should be so many forces out that the streets are crowded with them. I would get this caracter out of bed, have a quick trial, and beheading. I would take the head, and show it all over the Sadr City. Keep an iron fist on the area, get into any corner , attic or cave, and get any and all weapons the militia has. Make any and all living in that city, to make a choice if they want to leave for Iran, or stay. If they want to stay, they will have to be Iraqis, not Iranians posing as Iraqis.

Judging from the slow Saddam trial, nothing of that will happen, instead we will see endless meetings, negotiations and coordiations between any and all sheik or mulla.

The Head On A Pike would be something that would work really good in Sadr's case. Stick out your neck too far, and it will fall off.

When rightness and justice is implemented with such a force, that it will be a gasp in the audience, it will make an impact.

Remeber in school, when the class was talking, being noisy, and didnt pay attention, the Principal came in and banged his fist on the teachers desk. Demanded absolute silence, took out his little dreaded black book and started to take names. Oh, man did he get attention.

-- August 27, 2006 7:43 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Robert: I was waiting to see if anyone would catch that... YES, YES, YES... I am kin to all of the memories! :)

Roger: I got a good laugh out of your posts... Be safe out there and keep the dirty side down...

Carl: Trust me I am the one sitting here feeling really shitty about the outcome of the past few days... I hope that Sara truly understands that the people here on this site are unique in the fact that we are going to go from rags to riches together... We will always think about eachother and wonder what everyone's doing well after this train comes to a stop. I hope somewhere in her heart, something tells her that the friendships attained here is worth much more than the need to preach on this site. Sara, please join us on this ride but I hope you will leave your bible at the door.

Outlaw

-- August 27, 2006 7:59 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

Re Twin Tower collapse.

It's a matter of gravity.

Some have been arguing that the heat of the burning fuel was not enough to melt the bearing steel structure, and there has to be an explosion to bring the towers down.

While it is a true fact that the heat of the fire can never reach the melting point of steel, this is not a point needed in order to weaken the steel property to a point where it can no longer hold the weight of the structure above it.

As an experiment you can take a cold steelbar, mount it like a fishingpole, and hang a big wheight on the free end.

Take a torch and heat up the steel, and watch what will happen.

Already at moderate temp, 700-800F, you will see the rod start giving in slowly, heat it up more and the process goes quicker.

The towers had two structural components, one internal skelleton, and a very thick corrigated skin. Both compensated each other and made together a very strong structure.

At the impact of an airliner, the outer skin was compromized, but still the remaining skin and the internal skeleton would have been enough to hold up the building, have it not been for the weakening effect of prolonged heat on the bearing steel.

It's interesting to note that the tower that was hit first, had the hit higher up in the structure than the tower that got hit last.

So even if the last tower had a shorter exposure to heat, it had a much higher structure to support and thus fell earlier.

The first tower to get hit, stood a comparably very long time after the second hit tower had collapsed.

When steel timber or any other material is mounted longwise in the direction of the supporting force, it's called to mount it in compression. That is one of the most strong designs there are.

Take an uncooked spaghetti (no not the flying monster), break off an inch, and put it between your thumb and index finger and try to compress it.

Thats a pretty stiff thing to squeese, even if it takes no effort at all to just snap off a piece of spaghetti.

If you would cook one section of that spaghetti, you would get a very soft and soggy piece of it, and you could no longer hold it between your fingers and squeese. The soggy part would give.

Once the steel is heated enough, and starts to give just a little, it goes very fast after that.

The steel will buckle, or bend, and you do no longer have a straight line to transfer the compression force. and that particular section will collapse in its entire area.

At this very sequence, the whole structure on top is intact, and is falling, in one piece onto next floor, that has to absorb the impact from the falling structure.

The next floor is ofcourse not designed to take the impact and will immediately give in, and now the building is impacting next floor and next floor.

The force of the collapsing building is almost a free fall, as the floors in sequence can give almost no resistance at all.

The falling building and the standing building will share equal ammount of force from the impact floor after floor, so as the building collapses, and more and more of the underlying floors are eaten up, an equal ammount of floors are eaten up from the top structure coming down on the bottom building.

The mass of the whole building is finally down to the bottom floor, the speed of the last of the building hitting ground is about 120 mph.

The collaps itself was not a straight line event, the building that fell first, the top half started to tilt in its fall, and impacted other buildings, the last collapsing building fell pretty much straight down.

The impact itself would have the same effect on other surrounding buildings like an explosion, and most close surrounding buildings did therefore not survive.

There was no mysterious explosions in this event.

A bunch of terrorists that hijacked airplanes and killed people.

High velocity impact, lot of fuel/heat, and gravity.

Simple as that.

-- August 28, 2006 12:50 AM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

Did anyone catch C-SPAN today and the interview with Pat Bergstresser, former director of international Press Club in 2005 for Iraq?

I found it interesting that journalists are having to be trained to have honest reporting for the first time in their lives.

Saddam only allowed new reports that were favorable to him. Therefore, everything written was censored.

General Sada in Saddam's Secrets explained that everyone in the Baath Party is a spy. Therefore, the Iraqi people and journalists never told the truth--as they could be killed for doing so.

I made notes of different people in this report. They are: Alaa Attai from Al-Forat Television; Ibrahim Al-Saraji from Al-Safee Newspapers; Asseel Al-Bayati from Al-Sharqiya television; Ahmad Arashid from Al-Diyar television; Hussein Mchsen (a studio technician) with Al-Sumaria television.

Journalist are under a lot of tension as insurgents do not want them reporting the truth about the events in Iraq. I see this as progress for Iraq's journalists as they are reporting uncensored news for the first time. They are working besides foreign journalists.

-Journalists are liking their new found freedom and so are the Iraqi people. According to the journalists, iraq's people are turning away from Arab news stations and listening to their news outlets.

-The Arab television (I can't think of its name) the one that publishes all of the beheadings, terrorists news was deported from Iraq. The president of Iraq felt that terrorism is anti-Iraq.

-It takes courage to print the truth (as many of them could be kidnapped and killed by insurgents!). Journalists are housed inside the government's security center in Baghdad.

Another item of interest, according to Pat Bergstresser, journalist in Iraq are paid anywhere from $100.00 to $300.00 dollars a month. Sometimes they are not paid at all or not timely (missing a month's pay until the next.) This is another stresser on the journalist.

The economy is really bad in Iraq. Inflation is very high according to Pat Bergstresser.

Laura

-- August 28, 2006 2:16 AM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

Do you remember that guy who reported Iraq's military news to the international press? All lies!!!

Laura

-- August 28, 2006 2:25 AM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

Outlaw-

Sara may not leave her Bible at the door but maybe she will tone Bible information down a bit.

Laura

-- August 28, 2006 2:31 AM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

Oh, the name of the news station that Iraq band from it's country is Al-Jazeera news.

Laura

-- August 28, 2006 2:56 AM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

Okie, Roger:

I read somewhere that Sadr and the USA Commanding General had words recently. Sadr is suspected of many of the insurgent strikes against Iraqi's. He was reported to have said to the general that he felt that USA was targeting him- just like the Al-Qaeda leader.

The USA General replied, that Sadr had nothing to worry about as long as he was doing lawful acts inside of Iraq (according to the way that Iraq's Prime Minister has set things up.).

According to news outlets, Sadr is suspected of acting in the interests of Iran instead of Iraq. Although, it was noted that his tribe has 4 seats on the parliament, elected by the people.

Like I said, I don't remember where I read it, but I got the impression that the military has it's eye on Sadr.

Laura

-- August 28, 2006 3:11 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Laura....

The US Military had battles with Sadr and his thugs in the past and killed off a lot of them. He's responsible for some deaths to our troops and our military has him directly in their sights.

Right now Sadr is playing his religious card and trying to stay at a distance from blame for any troubles. I have a hunch our Military will take him out if he gets out of line.

-- August 28, 2006 8:13 AM ∞

---

Anonymous wrote:

This is good news!!! I think between now and the next US elections we'll continue to see good positive news about Iraq. The people on the ground in Iraq can see the positive things going on but it's nice to see it in print also.

===========================================================================

Published: Sunday, August 27, 2006

Iraqi tribal chiefs promise to fight civil violence

Associated Press

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Hundreds of Iraq's tribal chiefs Saturday signed a "pact of honor," pledging to support the prime minister's national reconciliation plan on wiping out sectarian strife and terrorism tearing the country.

In another boost for Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's efforts, a Sunni lawmaker was released nearly two months after she was abducted in an attack that had stoked sectarian tensions and led to a boycott by the minority in parliament.

At least 23 people were killed Saturday, including four members of a Shiite family in Baqouba and a female translator working for the British consulate in Basra, Iraq's second-largest city.

"Realizing the gravity of the situation our country is undergoing, we pledge in front of God and the Iraqi people to be sincere and serious in preserving the unity of our country," said the pact signed by tribal leaders and sheiks at a national conference.

The chiefs also pledged to "work hard to stop the bloodletting and ... sectarian killings that have nothing to do with our values." A representative read out the agreement, which he described as a "pact of honor," on live television.

Tribes wield considerable influence in Iraqi society, especially among rural people for whom bonds of the clan are vital. But like all other institutions in Iraq, tribal affiliations sometimes can also be tenuous.

Although the pact is unlikely to bring peace to Iraq, it is an important step toward winning support in this divided nation for al-Maliki's 24-point reconciliation plan unveiled in June.

"These tribes have to play a significant role in fighting terrorists, saboteurs and infiltrators," Al-Maliki said in a speech to open the chiefs' conference earlier Saturday.

Al-Mashhadani, who was seized July 1 by gunmen in a Shiite area of north Baghdad as she was traveling from nearby Diyala province to attend a Parliament session, said she was treated well in captivity.

"I used to watch television and follow the news. I used to talk to them and they kept telling me to 'be patient,'†" she said after meeting the prime minister.

Al-Maliki said there was no security operation to secure her release.

"She was turned in as a gift for the reconciliation project," he said. "This is an important step and achievement for the reconciliation process, this is a good start."

-- August 28, 2006 8:38 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Sorry....the last oost was by me...I guess I got excited about such good news....

-- August 28, 2006 8:41 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

It looks like the FIL and the hydrocarbon law are top priorities right now.
=========================================================================

Updated: 6:08 p.m. CT Aug 27, 2006
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraq’s government hopes its plans to attract investment and create jobs can stem a descent into civil war and says foreign leaders should back a U.N. economic package or face a disaster for the entire Middle East.

In an interview with Reuters, Deputy Prime Minister Barham Salih, the government’s top economic official, said the need to clamp down on sectarian and ethnic violence would not distract him from working to develop Iraq’s vast potential oil wealth. Restoring prosperity could help rein in the killing, he argued.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14544079/

-- August 28, 2006 9:14 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I hope this means the Iraqi government has had enough of Sadr ( AKA fat boy cleric that needs to be swung from a rope ).

============================================================================

Politics

Iraq government plans reshuffle
By Alastair Macdonald

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BAGHDAD, 27 August 2006 (Reuters)
Iraq's prime minister plans to reshuffle his cabinet just 100 days after it was formed because of frustrations with some ministers' performance and disloyalty among others, Deputy Prime Minister Barham Salih told Reuters.
>
>
>
SADR MOVEMENT

A senior official in Maliki's United Alliance, the Shi'ite Islamist bloc that dominates parliament, said he expected some changes to be announced before parliament reconvenes in a week after its summer recess. One minister from the Sadr movement, the transport minister, has already resigned, officials said.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php?refid=DH-S-28-08-2006&article=10118

-- August 28, 2006 10:03 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Seems like good news are coming now, first a trickle, now in stride.

Good for us, good for the Dinar.

-- August 28, 2006 10:32 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Roger wrote:

"There was no mysterious explosions in this event."

-------------------------------------------------------

You obviously haven't seen the video off this website. It's very curious why there is melting steel, at the corner no less, about 3-4 levels down from the impact. Makes no sense whatsoever. It's very possible this footage was doctored (I don't know if the authenticity was verified). Also, I have an issue with the entire "the floor just gave way because the steel melted" theory. I see the top section falling off, and taking perhaps some other levels with it, but for it to fall straight down (and it did fall straight down, just watch any footage to see this) takes coordination of some sort at levels below the point in question. The fall looked like a controlled demolition from the get go. It made me wonder..... There have been numerous incidents of skyscrapers burning (on multiple floors no less) and not one has ever collapsed as the WTC towers did. Yeah yeah, none have had jets flown into them either, but was the heat enough to cause 110 stories to come down in a controlled fashion as they did? Methinks not. And yes Roger, surrounding buildings did suffer damage, but it was not from a sideways collapse of the top as you put it. Most of the debris from the top simply followed a parabolic trajectory as the top caved in (just as one would suspect...) or once at the bottom with no where else to go, the debris went sideways...

Just my two cents. And to say this incident wasn't a conspiracy is just plain wrong..... 4 planes hijacked simultaneously and flown into famous American landmarks = conspiracy.

-- August 28, 2006 11:12 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

In the interest of posting something useful about discussing the dinar, I would like to pose the following question: Doesn't Iraq have to have enough monetary reserves to support any RV that takes place?

How much do they have now? 6-7 billion? I don't know how much is in foreign hands, but its a sizeable chunk. I don't see thme being able to support an RV (if one does occur) of more than .01USD to 1NID. This would mean that no more than 500 billion NID would have to be in speculators hands in order for them to cover the spread.

From the daily auctions, I come up with a figure of just over 40 billion Dinar (assuming all of this leaves the country, which is probably close to true...). This would leave about 450 billion or so that would have to have left the country in an "unofficial capacity" or in some other deal brokered by the Iraqi government (like dinars going to other countries reserves....). Perhaps some of this could be explained by neighboring peoples coming over to invest (Saudis and Kuwaitis come to mind...) and our servicemen over there getting it off the street. I don't see 450 billion being snapped up by just those two forces alone though..... Perhaps some rich Europeans or Japaneese folks have thier hands in the pie too.....

So my two questions are: 1) How much dinar do you think is in sepeculators hands? and 2) How much of an RV do you honestly think there will be (if any) if the Iraqi foreign reserve is in the neighborhood of

Thoughts on this please......

-- August 28, 2006 11:37 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

So my two questions are: 1) How much dinar do you think is in sepeculators hands? and 2) How much of an RV do you honestly think there will be (if any) if the Iraqi foreign reserve is in the neighborhood of less than 10 billion NID?

Thoughts on this please......

-- August 28, 2006 11:40 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Steve:
I believe you are correct about the conspiracy theory....
The conspiracy was put together by the ARABS who hijacked the planes and under the direction of their commanders....
Known Facts:
Perps: Middle Eastern Nationality
Weapon:Planes
Motive: To instigate a world war as I believe the Arab Leaders thought it would, just as pearl harbor did back in the 40's.
Crime:
Attacking of America's Financial Center resulting in massive lost of life and Property
Result:
Instigated USA to actually start to hunt the groups who intend to kill us.
Resulted in several of those groups commands to not longer be in this world
Destroyed numerous organizations and continuing to destroy numerous terror organizations
Created more conspiracy theorist than you can spray with insecticide

Nothing more Nothing Less...

-- August 28, 2006 11:52 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Carl wrote:

"I believe you are correct about the conspiracy theory....
The conspiracy was put together by the ARABS who hijacked the planes and under the direction of their commanders...."

------------------------------------------------------------

This is exactly what I meant. I don't believe I posted anything to the contrary or implied anything else........

-- August 28, 2006 12:14 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Steve:
Sorry! misread!!! spank me if you like...but please use a soft leather belt...they feel so much better......

-- August 28, 2006 12:34 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Steve:

I am not sure how many billions of Dinars are in the hands of speculators. Unlike Roger, I believe the current value of the Dinar is not set artificially low.

Current circumstances finds the Dinar in a unique position among world currencies. The currency finds support with the Iraqi people and the Central Bank. The Central Government has nothing tangible at this point to back a true value.

Until the oil starts pumping in the quanity of Saudi Arabia, we probably will not see an RV. In my view, it behooves us to buy as much Dinar as we possibly can before the oil starts flowing. George W. Bush and the Iraqi Central Government have two years to get the oil flowing in significant amounts.

My answer, no RV in the short term. Without oil neither the Central Bank or the Central Government can back a RV. Unless something catastrophic happens, Iraqi exchange rates will remain stable.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 28, 2006 12:52 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Carl wrote:

"Steve:
Sorry! misread!!! spank me if you like...but please use a soft leather belt...they feel so much better......"

------------------------------------------

Nah, it's cool Carl. I can definitely see where you might have thought I implied that our government had a hand in 9/11. My position isn't immediately clear. What I was getting at is that there was more to the incident than just the planes. I am a believer that there was a second team of terrorists on the ground to ensure the towers came down. I don't know how they might have gotten the charges into the buildings, but there are definitely telltale signs of other action on floors below the impact points......

It's not out of the realm of possibility. How many thing get past security on a daily basis? Just entertaining ideas.....

-- August 28, 2006 1:13 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Rob N wrote,

"Without oil neither the Central Bank or the Central Government can back a RV"

------------------------------------------------------------

I agree, if you are speaking of an RV along the lines of 20-30 cents. This is, of course, a pipe dream right off the bat. What I ask here is: Can the Iraqi government support an RV along the lines of .01-.04 given curent foreign reserves only?

If the Dinar value is mostly based on this (most currency is in large part...), then the current exchange rate undervalues the currency.

500 billion in speculators hands (this is a pure guess, just an estimation based on my discussion above..) divided by 6-7 billion in foreign reserves gives a rate of about 75 to 1. Its currently 1480 or so to 1. While I don't maintain that they will instantly revalue to 75 to 1, I think they might gradually step up to it as the security situation eases.

Now if there is more money in speculators hands, this reduces the capacity of RV to a higher level...... ie 1 trillion would lower the rate to 150 to 1. But I am no economics major and I realize other factors are involved. Just a few thoughts....

-- August 28, 2006 1:57 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Steve:

Currently, what is the Iraqi Dinar worth? I do not believe currently it is under valued. The currency has only the buying power and value the Central Bank and Central Government can afford. Without oil, the CBI has nothing to back the DINAR. The people do not have confidence in the government like in the U.S. where our money is printed and holds its value because of a stable government. In my view, an RV is out of the question. It can not be supported.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 28, 2006 3:18 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Rob N wrote:

"Without oil, the CBI has nothing to back the DINAR."

----------------------------------------------------

Long term perhaps. I am talking about an RV, which is of course a short term issue (long term rise in monetary value is called appreciation I believe). This is where the foreign curency reserves come into play. They basically need to have on hand enough foreign money of equal value to whatever they are allowing to float on the open market. My question was about thier ability to do an RV in the short term to about .01 to .04 based on thier current stockpile. This to increase the purchasing power of the average citizen and foster a "feel good" environment. IMO, this is not an outrageous RV and can easily be supported by the mechanism described above.

Make no mistake Rob, I agree with you 100 percent in regards to the dinar appreciating and/or holding its value long term. For that they will definitely need to get the oil pumping. Don't forget, Iraq can diversify as well. It is in a rather unique position as far as natural resources go in the middle east (they have a fresh water supply......)

-- August 28, 2006 3:33 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

The Government of Iraq controls enough oil to justify a healthy RV (.33 USD? ) of the Dinar. The information below is just for one field of many. If you extrapolate this data to include all of the country then any Banker in the world would back you to the hilt. That's the way I see it anyway....

==========================================================================

25 August 2006 (Azzaman)
The Southern Oil Company in Basra wants to boost output from the West Qurna oil field, said a company official.

Sameer Jassem, the company’s information officer, said engineers were working to increase output from the field which experts estimate the worth of its reserves in today’s prices at about $1,000 billion.

The field, according to initial surveys, holds up to 14 billion barrels of proven reserves. It is one of several giant undeveloped fields in southern Iraq.

-- August 28, 2006 3:48 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Okie wrote:

"The Government of Iraq controls enough oil to justify a healthy RV (.33 USD? ) of the Dinar. The information below is just for one field of many. If you extrapolate this data to include all of the country then any Banker in the world would back you to the hilt."

---------------------------------------------------------------------

In the presence of a healthy security situation and sound infrastructure I would almost agree. The problem is that in your scenario, an RV would be pegged to oil essentially. Given the volatility of the oil market I don't believe this to be a good move. Not to mention the aforementioned security issue as it exists today and the horrible infrastructure issues that loom. At the end of the day, oil in the ground doesn't equate to financial liquidiy/stability but oil on tankers heading for foreign ports does......... IMO Iraq has to get here first before we will see values even remotely close to what you propose.

Just for the record Okie, I would love to try and sell a banker on the current picture, just don't think I would get any takers unfortunately.

-- August 28, 2006 3:59 PM ∞

---

Robert wrote:

Hey Gang,

Did anyone else see that National Geographic special, "Inside 9/11"? It was on last night on the National Geographic channel.

I think that it was the best analysis of what happened before and immediately after 9/11. The FAA, FBI and military did not fare too well on this special and neither did President Clinton or Bush. It showed 9/11 for what it was: the result of a whole big, bunch of errors just waiting for the inevitable - that happened.

-- August 28, 2006 4:21 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Okay, whatawe got, conspircys, RV, true value of Dinar , let me start with the conspiracy, yes I would have answered like Carl, in itself it was a conspiracy, yes, but no more than the hijacking of the aiplanes, beyond that, teams on the ground, setting charges....why would anyone hijack airplanes if you would set charges and bring it down that way??

Every enemy the US have had, have been portraited as stupid, stupid Nazis, stupid Soviets, stupid Al Qaida.

Big mistake.

Steve I would like you to have a look at another effect of the towers, coming down.

As each floor is collapsed, and at the end they are collapsed with very high velocity, the atmosphere in each floor must be dispaced by the oncoming building.

Lets say that at the end of the collapse, where the velocity of the downfalling structure was about 120 mph, the building will eat trough a floor in micro seconds.

You can do the math, lets say you have one floor that is 10 feet high.

Displace that volume of air in extreemly fast fashion, and you will get nothing but an explosion like environment outside of the building.

If a building comes down in a controlled fasion, when a controlled demolition takes place, and the towers came down very much like in a controlled fasion, doesnt mean that it must have been a controlled explosion.

Most anything you pull the legs from, will go down, where gravity dictates that it will go.

I have in the past said, and I say it again:

If a dog and a zebra both have two eyes, four legs, two ears, one mouth, one nose and one tail, that doesnt mean that a dog is a zebra.

I just dont understand if a couple of thugs and criminals did a horreneous act, that it has to be more to it than it is.

An airliner went down.....wasnt it a military destryer close by, testing missiles....

It doesnt matter if you line up all the 195 servicemen on that ship saying that no test was done, they were actually having dinner at the time, and was not manning their combat stations.

It's going to be there forever, the sinister govermental coverup.

Rob N.

I do believe the Dinar is set artificially low, and far too low also.

The galloping inflation is itself a manifestation of the too low value, prices on goods and services have an inherent exchange value in them.

If a carmechanic in Baghdad and a carmechanic in Kuwait is doing the same job, but the value of what he is doing is set artificially low in Baghdad, he get so much less buying power in Baghdad than in Kuwait, doing the same thing.

If you sell a TV in Kuwait, you get a certaqin value, but if the currency in Iraq is artificially low, the buying power is so weak, that you must ask for more of that currency, to compensate for the real value.

You can say, that there will be a starvation of products, going there, the stuff have so high value, and the currency so low value, that the seller can ask for more and more, and get away with it.

In this environment there is very little competition.

With higher valued Dinar, the work the carmechanic is doing in Baghdad, will have buying power, and the stuff coming in, have lesser value to the currency.

Now the currency and the stuff have equal exchangeable value.

No Rob N, I completely dissagree with you on this point, I also think that as long as the Dinar is held artificially down like it's done right now, the longer it is done, the more disservcie to Iraq it will do.

If they ever are going to talk about economic recovery, they have to come to grips with this Dinar situation, and ofcourse start pumping oil.

I understand that the years have gone by, and the Dinar have been sitting where it has for all those years, hopes of an RV have been in the air a couple of times, and I as well as anyone here are sitting and waiting for the train.

The last prediction I heard was from Dr Q, where he predicted an RV between the 15th, and 30 of Aug this year. Well it's the 28th today, so hurry up Dr Q.

Well, he also predicted another RV that never took place.

Wonder if tea leaves will work better? Chrystal balls? I bet we could make a killing opening up an 800 number, "The Dinar RV Psychic Hot Line", dressing up Carl in a WooDoo thing and put him on late night infomercial. A table with a chrystal ball, some chicken bones and feathers, 5 bucks a minute, no RV predictions limits.

-- August 28, 2006 4:23 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Roger wrote:

"With higher valued Dinar, the work the carmechanic is doing in Baghdad, will have buying power, and the stuff coming in, have lesser value to the currency.

Now the currency and the stuff have equal exchangeable value.

No Rob N, I completely dissagree with you on this point, I also think that as long as the Dinar is held artificially down like it's done right now, the longer it is done, the more disservcie to Iraq it will do."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just as a quick addendum to my earlier statement. IMO there is no better way to promote faith in the government than to increase the purchasing power of the everyday Iraqi (ie RV). Instead of blowing $%^*@ up, they could now go to thier local Starbucks and blog on T&B with thier newly purchased Dell laptop (which was probably purchased in Kuwait City)........

-- August 28, 2006 4:41 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Okie wrote:

"I hope this means the Iraqi government has had enough of Sadr ( AKA fat boy cleric that needs to be swung from a rope )."

----------------------------------------------------------

Werd....... it would clarify the picture over there a lot.

-- August 28, 2006 4:48 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Roger:

The Dinar has not been re-valued for a reason. Namely, a lack of an economy. The inability to financially back the Dinar (no oil). Continued violence. These are matters that must be settled before Dr. Q or anybody else promotes the concept of an RV.

The currencies current value is not an artificial number, it reflects market conditions inside Iraq. I agree the longer market conditions are such the increased damage it causes Iraq.

Roger, I listened to one so called expert on NPR about Iraq. He says, our commitment in the country could stem out up to 15yrs. If this is true and I am not saying it is. Are you prepared to hold your Dinars that long. Are we all prepared to hold them that long.

An RV may not be 15 years away, but I do not believe it will be in Q4 of 2006. Regarding Dr. Q, he may not have taken into consideration how slow the Central Government moves to make a change.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 28, 2006 5:56 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Rob N,

I think the RV have not been made because they dont have a clue what they're doing.

The Dinar NEEDS an RV, it NEEDS it NOW, the economy, because it is what it is, is partly because of missmanagement of their currency, fix the currency.

One reason I strongly suspect is that the posts they have in the ministry, are right now a rotating juggling and almost musical chairs.

I keep reading about shakeups quite often nowdays.

That in itself is a good sign, the goverment is consolidating it's power, but in the meanwhile the positions are very shaky. I can imagine being a minister of oil, education , finance or anything over there.

Do I have a job tomorrow?

Did I say the right thing at the last meeting?

It's a period of consolidation of power and in a situation like that any big undertaking, will be a risk. An ambitious project, taking initiative, and planning for the future seems like sticking out the neck too far.

I have a picture in my head, right or wrong, that right now, very little initiative is taken, only a few strong persons are leading the country, most of the ministers are "yes sir" guys, and they are trying to get competent people to run the place.

The few strong ones running the place are dealing with daily emergencies, and "yes sir" people are lining up asking -"What shall we do now"?

With other words, if I'm getting an order, I'm not responsible.

The RV itself could have happened long time ago, with good reslut on the economy.

-- August 28, 2006 6:45 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I don't believe the RV will be based on a Wharton School Of Business economic model. I think it will be decided by "out of the box" reasons.
Their neighbor to the South attracted money and investment just on the hope of finding oil. Iraq already has the oil and all they need to do is develop the fields.....which is very expensive. And how expensive is it? Too expensive to do with a low valued Dinar.

The moral to this story....The Iraq golden goose is already in place and the world will beat a path to their door to get a piece of the action.

========================================================================

Discovery! The Story Of Aramco Then

Chapter 8: Into Production

Written by Wallace Stegner
Illustrated by Don Thompson

SYNOPSIS — In some ways 1937 was an exciting year for the company, that was now the California Arabian Standard Oil Company (Casoc) The first American wives—unveiled and nervous about it—came and settled into the raw camp at Damman Max Steineke, in what would turn out to be a historic tri, crossed and re-crossed Arabia. Crown Prince Sa’ud came to call and came after him, England Princess Alice—to the annoyance of Benito Mussolini. But in other ways it was a most discouraging period. Police interference became intolerable, pilferage got out of hand and Damman No. 7 continued to produce nothing whatever.

In a sense Damman No. 7, the first deep-test well, was to be the decivise chapter in a story that had begun 14 years earlier when Major Frank Holmes obtained the first concession to search for oil in Arabia. That step set in motion a chain of events that eventually brought American oil interests into the Middle East just as King Ibn Sa’ud and his advisor decided that better use of the Kingdom’s mineral wealth might solve their chronic fiscal problems. Negotiations followed, then reconnaissance, exploration, the first test wells, and, on December 7, 1936 the spudding in of Damman No. 7.

Casoc had high hopes for Damman No. 7. But within ten months headquarters began to worry and early in 1938, they recalled Steineke to San Francisco for serious talks. Torn between his desire for more information on which to base a recommendation, and an enthusiasm that was based on not much more than an educated hunch, Steinke went, talked and told them the search should continue. In the midst of the great American depression it was a particularly hard decision to make, but fortunately, because on March 4, Ohliger cabled electrifying news: Damman No. 7 was flowing 1,585 barrels a day. Three days later figure had soured to 3,690 and three weeks later total production was over 100,000 barrels. When wells No. 2 and No. 4 were deepened to the same zone with the same results. San Francisco finally relaxed and the men in Saudi Arabia cheered. Damman was a commercial oil field.

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/196902/discovery.the.story.of.aramco.then-chapter.8.into.production.htm

-- August 28, 2006 7:11 PM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Guys!
It appears Iraqi Leaders are trying to get a handle on the Security Problem. If they can, this will go along way in settling the nerves of investors...however...there still remains the little short, knotty knees, Iranian leader wanting to recall the 12th Imam out of his Well...

Presently, the Iranian Leaders think very simply the Americans and the British blinked at the Lebanon Chicken Game and lost their nerve backing Israel.( it appears this is the case)

This inturn has allowed Iran to imagine they have a bigger Bat in their pants than they really do...
It seems we have two problems that need to be addressed immediately....Iran and Sadr....I believe Sadr should be the first as an example....next should be Iran, since it looks like the Arab Leaque or the UN is not going to call their bluff....

Winter is coming on....so I believe it will be next spring before you see any major action against Iran....but one thing is for sure....we are going to fight them.....If.... that is the case...then it should be us that picks the time and place...

-- August 28, 2006 7:55 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Carl...

Good call on the action required for our buddies Sadr and Iran. The initial blows would have to be massive and sudden...A La Colin Powell style.

-- August 28, 2006 8:29 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

I'm in full agreement on that Carl.

Sadr gots ta go. Iran should follow in short order.

Imagine a "liberated" Iran sitting next door to the new Iraq. I'm booking my world cruise now.......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. –Sydney J. Harris

-- August 28, 2006 9:38 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

When we get a new notepad, the first one posting must follow the tradition and say "wow, we got a new notepad"

-- August 28, 2006 11:31 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Roger....

With our tradition of self improvement on this forum I think it should be "holy sh_t Batman, we've got a new scratchpad". Whatta ya think?

-- August 29, 2006 9:39 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Roger:

I should have closed my response to you with I hope you are right. In this case, I hope I am wrong. An RV of .10 or more will be a good feeling.

The one thing I am confident about though, I still do not believe an RV will occur Q4 of 2006. So, Roger the ball is in your court to offer us a predicition of when the RV will occur.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 29, 2006 9:51 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Okie,

-"Whats this...a new scratchpad, I ordered a cheesburger with fries"

Rob N,

My chrystal ball is on an overhaul, and my tealeve supplier got stuck in Atlanta bypass, so I have to stick with the return of the swalows to Capistrano, and the position of the planets, and I'm not too good with those. Aching knee and whissle in my ear shows me though that an RV was done last month, so I dont think those are too reliable.

I have a pretty good in with Punxsutawney Phil, though, you know that rodent they're pulling out of a treestub every year.

Seriously, I dont have a clue when it's going to happen, all I know is that it's overdue, it's a fix and in my mind trying to puzzle everything together, I say soon. You may put any meaning into the word soon.

They're very ineffective over in Iraq, logic and reason as we see it, might be different there.

In a sense, I really dont mind if they wait a bit, because that gives me an opportunity to maybe get a couple of more mills before the shop closes.

My goal was to get 30 mil, Im above that, got another 5 mil, and with a liiiiitle bit of luck I might hit 40.

I'm pretty sure though that when the RV comes, it will not be a big announcement for it to happen in weeks in advance. It will just be a fact one day.

In the meanwhile Im doing what I suppose most of us are doing, trying to get a mil here and there.

-- August 29, 2006 1:10 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Looks like the Military has been given the green light to finally go after Sadr and his thugs.

============================================================================
Caldwell hinted at a looming confrontation between U.S. and Iraqi forces and the Mehdi Army militia of radical Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al Sadr, whose Sadr City slum stronghold has not yet been targeted in Operation Together Forward.

"The intention is for Iraqi security forces to operate through the entire city of Baghdad," Caldwell told journalists.

Sadr City is largely a no-go area for the Iraqi security forces and even U.S. troops' few forays there have resulted in fierce gunbattles with militiamen. Analysts say the continued existence of the militias poses a threat to Iraq's stability.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php?refid=DH-S-29-08-2006&article=10148

-- August 29, 2006 1:32 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Okie:

Good. I hope they get Sadr. He needs to go. This will pave a new direction for Iraq.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 29, 2006 3:45 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

I have checked this board today and man it is slow. There must not be to much news out of Iraq. I guess everyone is taking a early holiday?

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 29, 2006 4:42 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Pentagon Press Briefing, Aug. 28
Friday, 25 August 2006

Brig. Gen. Dana J.H. Pittard
Commanding General, Iraq Assistance Group

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2464&Itemid=31

-- August 29, 2006 4:50 PM ∞

---

Outlaw wrote:

Iraq to take control of its troops.
Monday, 28 August 2006
By Staff Sgt. James Sherrill
124th Mobile Public Affairs Detachment.

BAGHDAD – The Iraqi government will officially take control of its major air, sea and land-based military commands beginning early next month by standing up the Iraqi Joint Headquarters, a major step toward putting Iraqis in the lead for securing the country, a senior Coalition spokesman here said Aug. 28. After more than three years of training and assistance for the Iraqi military, the government of Iraq has created the conditions for the Iraqi military to begin reporting directly to its government for orders, rather than relying on Coalition command structures, Maj. Gen. William B. Caldwell IV, the Multi-National Force – Iraq senior spokesman, said.

To date, over 129,000 Iraqi defense forces have been trained and equipped. The goal is to have 137,000 troops in the Iraqi military. “There will be no Coalition forces in the (Iraqi) chain of command whatsoever,” said Caldwell. Currently, senior-level Iraqi commanders report to the Coalition’s Multi-National Corps headquarters to receive their orders for major operations. The Multi-National Corps coordinates these operations with the Iraq’s Ministry of Defense. The Iraqi Joint Headquarters will take on the role of issuing orders and coordination with the Coalition, providing the critical link between the MoD and Iraqi units certified for independent security operations. The new headquarters is expected to stand up in early September. Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki serves as “Commander-in-Chief, just like our (American) president,” Caldwell said.

Iraqi forces continue to operate side-by-side with Coalition troops throughout the country, leading patrols and planning raids against insurgents. But the orders have ultimately come from the Coalition, said Army Maj. Gerald Ostlund, a public affairs officer with the Multi-National Security Transition Command – Iraq. MNSTC-I is responsible for training and equipping the Iraqi forces. While officials here stress the significance of the Iraqi government’s achievement as being ready to control the military as a whole, Iraqi military commanders already control significant forces at the division, brigade and battalion level, working hand-in-hand with Coalition forces.

In all, five division headquarters, 26 brigade headquarters and 85 battalions have taken the lead in operations. About a quarter of all security operations are conducted independently by Iraqi security forces alone and over two-thirds are conducted by Coalition forces in conjunction with Iraqi forces. Less than 10 percent of operations are conducted by Coalition forces alone. The relationship between Iraqi and Coalition forces will be spelled out in a formal agreement that provides the Iraqi military full authority to employ its forces as needed to accomplish security missions, while the Coalition continues to assist in training, equipping and supplying its forces in order to shape them into a fully effective force. The Iraqi Joint Headquarter will have three major components responsible for land, air and naval activities. The Iraqi Ground Forces Command – the primary component for security operations – will stand up at the same time as the Iraqi Joint Headquarters and will gradually take control of the 10 Iraqi Army divisions. Five divisions are already taking the lead in operations in their respective areas of the country. That number is expected to increase to six by the end of next month, according to Coalition officials.

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2443&Itemid=41

-- August 29, 2006 4:59 PM ∞

---

Anonymous wrote:

More evidence that Sadr is being taken out of the picture. The best thing for him would be a nice clean head shot from one of our snipers.

This speaks well for the Iraqi Police and Military!
============================================================================

In Monday's fighting in Diwaniyah, 80 miles south of Baghdad, at least 25 Iraqi soldiers, 10 civilians and five militiamen were killed and 75 people were wounded. The fighting was some of the worst in recent months between the Iraqi army and Shiite militiamen loyal to the firebrand cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

"Life is back to normal, the shops are open and Iraqi police and soldiers are deployed everywhere in Diwaniyah," said police Lt. Raid Jabir, contacted by telephone.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2006-08/29/content_677082.htm

-- August 29, 2006 6:57 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Sorry...that last post was from me.....

-- August 29, 2006 6:59 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

They're sure moving slow on the oil bill. Don't they realize it's needed now!!!!!!

================================================================================

Energy - Oil & Gas

Iraq edges towards new oil law

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

29 August 2006 (Zawya)
The Iraqi government is making progress in resolving internal debates on a bill to regulate the oil and gas industry but it will not go to parliament for at least a couple of months, a senior government official said today.

Deputy Prime Minister Barham Salih told Reuters in an interview that a series of meetings among officials in recent days had confirmed an acceptance of existing constitutional rules over control of hydrocarbon resources but there were still differences over the roles of central and regional governments.

The bill is intended to unlock potentially huge foreign investment in Iraq's vital oil industry by setting ground rules for how the state's resources are managed. It also goes to the heart of power struggles among sectarian and ethnic factions.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php?refid=DH-S-29-08-2006&article=10160

-- August 29, 2006 7:30 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Oh man, it's slow, vacationtime ???

I guess we're not burned out on Dinars, but we might be a little bit burned out turning the same piece of mud over and over.

Okie,

Read that story from 1939, from the site "The story of Aramco", very interesting.

Different times then, what hits me is the telling of how welcomed they were everywhere they went. They criss crossed Arabia, set up camps, met with Kings, and they all seem to like each other.

If Islam and Cristianity is as old as it is, and for not longer than 65 years ago, both cultures could coexist with each other, makes me think that the now existing hostility towars west is a pretty recent creation.

Anyhow good reading.

Read up a little bit on Forex trading. Did'nt know how enourmous big that trading was.

50 times bigger than NASDAQ.

Many are sitting at home dallying around doing currency trades, having Forex trading as a secons job, and I guess for some successful traders, full time job.

What we are doing, must seem like stoneage, buying from dealers, that go to Middle East, get packed suitcases full of bills, go back and sell it on adds.

The Forex traders dont go outside their door.

Currency as currency doesnt matter, but the only fact that the Dinar is not traded, will be a kind of world standard of an accepted currency.

A currency trader that is operating on the Forex market, would certainly see the Dinar as a possibility, but it just has not passed his seal of approval yet, as only the "real" currencies are traded on the Forex.

I just had a thought here, of what kind of value an Iraq Dinar would have in the eyes of an esteblished trader the very day it is let loose on the market.

He certainly have seen all the "Buy your Dinar here" ads, but probably have never considered buying that way, as he is in the very middle of how the "real" deals are made.

Ok lets say it's now traded for the first time on Forex.

Well, first and for all, no one on the Forex market HAVE any Dinars in their accounts, as they are just now being released for purchase for the first time, so no one can do any selling of it unless they buy them in the first place.

You have to BUY your chips first before you play at the wheels, that holds true not only in Vegas.

Then it's a matter of how much interest does this countrys currency have.

If Ugabebes currency is coming on the market, I can almost rest assured that first and for all, no one have any idea even where that country is located, much less what resources they have, much less their industrial potential as a long term investment, much less.....

When Iraq's currency will come on the table, this will give first and for all, immediate recognition of who they are, investments, and resources will be pretty well known for most, and that takes me to the point.

If we see Iraq as a good future, why wouldnt they? so they buy a little or more of that currency.

When it is launched, articles in the Forexnews will no doubt start telling in figures and numbers the investment done, the resources, the predictions , and they will not be too far off from what we are reading, probably the same as we have known for years.

So I have a strong feeling the Iraq Dinar will be a currency that is looked upon as a very positive long term investment.

I'm sure the initial trading will always be shakey for a week or so until it has stabilized, but it will from that point on grow stronger for every barrel pumped.

Now there might be some panic sellers, people like you and me, small investors, that have a few mil or so , and need to get cash on the spot. But I have a feeling that any selloff will be completely drowned in the buy frenzie, because once again, the Forex is 50 times bigger than NADAQ in trading volume.

After reading the Forex page, I just got some of these thoughts.

Now, that is a scenario when the Dinar is traded freely.

First, will probably come another RV with another peg to the Dollar, or perhaps a basket currency.

Then my second thought came.

I dont know if the Iraqis are even thinking on this, but here is the deal.

Right now the Dinar is enormously undervalued, you have to have bundles of money for simple things in life.

Inflation is rampant, because stuff is more valued than the currency in circulation, they have to work a lifetime to get a laptop.

So you want to RV the Dinar, to get the Iraqi man his buing power back. He wants his laptop.

If you over value the Dinar, another problem arises, your goods can not be sold to outside countries, because the price on them would be too high to compete.

This is the clincher.

They dont produce shit nothing there but oil.

They CAN overvalue the currency, and they can get away with it. The oil export is set in Dollar, not Dinars, and their export of other goods is close to zip, so really nothing would be hurt.

Hope theyre looking at it the same way over there.

From the completely incompetent slow moving molasses they have over there, I'm sure they have'nt really understood what is up or down yet.

Eventually they will come to grips with it, the Dinar looks beautiful my friends, get a few more while you can.

-- August 30, 2006 12:28 AM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

All-

I have been following the politics in Iraq and reading a great deal to understand how each of the groups in Iraq are looking at the forming of their new government.

It would appear that under Saddam, we had a federalist government (as the normal Iraqi understands government).

-Some Iraqi's are in favor of localized governments due to Saddam's abuse of government.

MEANING:

-Northern Kurds make contracts and run the oil fields and other products for the local government's good.

--Centralized government does not exists as Sunni and Shiite groups are in splinter groups.

-Tal Afar and Ramadi are Sunni cities and they have no government at all.

-Then of course, we have the Shiite city with Al-Sadr's influence.

Southern government of Basra also has localized government with Shiite (local clerics) making policy decisions on issues from oil to women's rights.

Maliki is a federalist. He supports centralized government.

*However, (apart from the USA) Maliki has no independent army.

-They have no equipment of their own. The USA blew up the tanks, armories, etc; Airforce has a total of 10 airplanes.

In addition, the troops are loyal to the tribe (local government) and recent reporting from Iraq about troop deployment is about this issue.

The Iraqi troops are being deployed by the USA General. The Iraqi government has no military command apart from the American's.

Maliki's hands are tied. He has to listen to USA, IMF (International banking system), Needs of USA Military for security of his country, and constraints related to Saddams debts for war reparations to Kuwait. These debts are not forgiven.

--Iraqi's faction groups (Kurds, Shiites, Sunni) do not trust a federalist government due to what happened to them under Saddam. The constitution apparently reflects this view from my reading.

What do they do? I would be interested in the boards views on what should the usa government do with this situation?

--This makes for an Iraq federal government that has no teeth.

--A constitution was drawn up allowing localized government according to the sources of the articles I read.

My question, Has anyone read the Iraqi Constitution?. The constitution supposely allows these localized government (tribes) to run the revenue of the various oil fields, agriculture etc.

I have not read the constitution of Iraq and I think it should be interesting to see what the people of these groups put in it.

*Each group is protecting their own localized governments.

*Therefore, oil production and revenues are fragmented.

_MY QUESTION: How can a country support a currency, when the oil revenues are supposely going to localized governments and not a centralized government supported by the Prime Minister of Iraq?.

Laura

-- August 30, 2006 3:10 AM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

All-

I have just printed a copy of the Iraqi Constitution. I have not read it as of yet.

It's an Associated Press Copy.

Should be interesting!

Laura

-- August 30, 2006 3:45 AM ∞

---

MMM wrote:

Where is Taxmamma? Where is Missdinar? They are broker. They are people without brain. They are saitan. Go home and take a long rest for new pediction of RV. End of July, end of August, end of .....,lie...lie...and more lie

-- August 30, 2006 4:20 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Laura Parker wrote:

It would appear that under Saddam, we had a federalist government (as the normal Iraqi understands government).

Answer: Laura just where or what have you been getting your info from. Bet most of it is from the MSM. No way was Iraq a Federalist System under Saddam. It was a Fascist Dictatorship. This is much of the problem now, because a federalist system is very new to them and prior to them implementing it, it was just so much theory or observation of other governments around the world. Federalism is very much a Western form of government, and is not an Arab form of government. It is very hard for them to get a grasp on what it means and feels like. Feel is the operative word here!!!!!

Most of the questions you had above were in the same vein i.e. Tribes, Local Governments, no government, Federal Government, Militias, etc…. the real issues are in standing up the Federal and making it work, and thus decreasing the “LOCAL” powers to be into secondary roles or non-existence. So many of the locals “Powers-to-be” feel threatened, and of course are trying to grab as much as they can before the hammer falls. And the hammer is falling!! The Iraqi Feds are getting stronger every day. We (the U.S) are over here helping them “at last instead of just assuming it would happen” in implementing this on the local level, by sending out real Reconstruction Teams that actually dicker, barter, and teaching these locals what it all means, and what it is in it for them. We are having to change their mindset which is very difficult after years of a dictatorship. I just got in last night after having been back here for less then 12 hours from a previous trip, and then sent to a wonderful place called Diwaniyah. You may have heard about it in the MSM in the last couple of days. Shaken not stirred is how I am feeling now. Too many close calls and my ears are still ringing. But the main problem there was of course Sadar’s little Militia weenies trying to take advantage of a perceived weakness. One thing I did learn from the local security forces are that most of the so called militia people were not from there or were common criminals who were like that even when old Saddam was in power. Now they just have AK’s and mortars instead of knives and intimidation. Anyway they got their butts kicked and are finding out that the Feds do have power and a relatively quick response time. These are all things that were not in place until recently.

One side note: Almost every time that I have had the ability to go out into the economy (with lots of protection), I have almost always exchanged dollars for dinar with the local head honchos because it was looked upon as a gesture of good will, as dollars were always sought after as a hedge against disasters. In the last two weeks that I have been on the road, in about a dozen villages and cities, I was turned down every time. I leave it to the rest of the Blog members to make their own decisions about what it means. I have my own ideas, but they wanted to hold onto the dinars they had. They were very polite about it, but said they didn’t need more dollars.

For anyone that needs an education on what revaluation (RV) of a currency is:

http://www.newyorkfed.org/aboutthefed/fedpoint/fed38.html

-- August 30, 2006 5:12 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

MMM

You are the reason that the Morning After Pill should be available to everyone. When you have something pertinate to post please find another site. If these words are to hard for you to understand, I would advise the PBS site. They have Big Bird, and the Cookie Monster. Of course they may be too advance for you also. So try Barney.

Lance

-- August 30, 2006 6:53 AM ∞

---

Carl wrote:

Lance:
Thinks for the Newyorkfed.org site...good simple read...

Reference to MMM
I bet the doctor told his or her mother he was sorry....that he tried everything on MMM when he/she birth came about....but MMM still lived....

-- August 30, 2006 7:20 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Lance....

Thanks for the latest news you gathered on your recent venture in the boonies.

I really appreciated your observation about the shop guys hanging onto their Dinars....This is big news!!!
They truly do have a good network and can be considered a barometer of what's going on in the market. Looks good for the Dinar!
Keep your head down!

-- August 30, 2006 9:30 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

I wanted to wish everyone a great holiday weekend. I will be out of pocket from tomorrow until Tuesday. I am sure I will have a lot of catching up to do.

Lance, I wish to echo Okie's thanks. The information you provide from being there first hand is most beneficial. I will be glad though when all of you can come home.

Roger, don't you worry I plan to buy a few more million between now and the end of 2006.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 30, 2006 10:09 AM ∞

---

Anonymous wrote:

Inflation is rampant, because stuff is more valued than the currency in circulation, they have to work a lifetime to get a laptop.

Roger wrote:

"So you want to RV the Dinar, to get the Iraqi man his buing power back. He wants his laptop.

If you over value the Dinar, another problem arises, your goods can not be sold to outside countries, because the price on them would be too high to compete.

This is the clincher.

They dont produce shit nothing there but oil.

They CAN overvalue the currency, and they can get away with it. The oil export is set in Dollar, not Dinars, and their export of other goods is close to zip, so really nothing would be hurt."

#################################################################################################
In my post above I had observed:

In the presence of a healthy security situation and sound infrastructure I would almost agree. The problem is that in your scenario, an RV would be pegged to oil essentially. Given the volatility of the oil market I don't believe this to be a good move. Not to mention the aforementioned security issue as it exists today and the horrible infrastructure issues that loom.

One must be careful of considering the efficacy of an RV with respect to oil potential only. Potential is exactly that. Its not revenue yet. A much better barometer for RV is the amout of foreign currency reserves held by the CBI. Mebbe Lance is in a position to dig up some info on this, but last I heard it was in the neighborhood of 10 billion or so. This amount will most directly influence the amount of any RV should one occur at all.

Anyone check the price of oil recently? Its less than $70 all of a sudden. Ask yourself: Given the worldwide energy situation and general security situation in the middle east, does a decline in oil prices make sense right now? Not really. This is direct evidence that an RV tied to oil revenue is a bad idea.......it's too unpredictable in the short term.

-- August 30, 2006 10:09 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

BAH.....that last post is mine.......

-- August 30, 2006 10:10 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Quote from the New York Fed article:

"A key effect of devaluation is that it makes the domestic currency cheaper relative to other currencies. There are two implications of a devaluation. First, devaluation makes the country's exports relatively less expensive for foreigners. Second, the devaluation makes foreign products relatively more expensive for domestic consumers, thus discouraging imports. This may help to increase the country's exports and decrease imports, and may therefore help to reduce the current account deficit."

#############################################################################################

Makes more sense now why they might be keeping a lid on the Dinars value. Perhaps our indicator of when an RV will take place will be in relation to foreign debt reduction. I believe the last phase of that is in 2008 no?

-- August 30, 2006 10:46 AM ∞

---

Dinar Phil wrote:

Ok Ok After a couplr' of years of reading this site I'm throwing this out for all to think about.

The dinar MAY never RV, Appreciate or go to the FX.

But, I think it will increase in value. Sometime in 2008. The reason is one of those black helicopter- conspiracy - Illuminati things. Check out this 2008 capital gains explaination.

http://www.fool.com/taxes/2003/taxes030613.html

2 Accountants believe it is valid. That's all I've run into to ask.

So between then and now do something. Anything (except t.v.) Live life. Be happy you may live in the greatest country in the world.

Give war a chance. My ignorance is self- edivent.

-- August 30, 2006 10:52 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Dinar Phil:

I could not access the link you included into your post. Will you please summarize what the link has to say? Also, why do you think the Dinar may not RV or be traded on Forex?

I am in agreement the currency probably will not RV until 2008, but for Iraq's long term economic properity it must RV the Dinar and allow the Forex trading of the currency.

I look forward to a more detailed explination of your point of view.

Caution: I am sure your post will throw Roger into Dinar delirium.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 30, 2006 11:23 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,

Thanks again, your the man on the ground, and with your perspective you will be able to set a few things straight over here, from time to time.

The posting of yours, they are happy with the Dinars, and not too hungry for Dollars as a hedge, is very good news. This is the kind of indications that is evident of their Dinars own acceptance.

Also, it would have been impossible to get a MSM journalist to do what you're doing, going out to differnet areas, knowing the culture, and for good will exchanging Dollars for Dinars, and report about it. He might have done it and didnt think twice about it, because all his attention was on reporting some blood somewhere, and reported that instead.

Those pieces you're coming up with is really gold nuggets.

MMM,

Your satan in sheep clothing, Go away, your a lying heap, your a ....AHHHHHHHH a silver cross, I'm burning, MMM , just coold down, we have Prozac nowdays, and if the medication is just right you might just be able to form one consecutive sentense that make sense.

Dinar Phil,

"The Dinar may never RV, appreciate or go to the FX.

But I think it will increase in value......"

Dinar Phil, do you know MMM?

-- August 30, 2006 11:32 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Rob N,

My straightjacket is on the way, sedatives are administered and those nice young guys with their clean white coats are coming to take me away....HA HA...to the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time....

I cant remember all of that song, it was a sixties song, and I dont remember much of the sixties anyway. That proofs I was there.

Dinar Phil,

Maybe I came across as a bit rude at first, please feel welcome and post as you like, I appreciate that you have been reading this post for years, I have not seen you posted before, just jump in and make your self comfy.

Sometimes we laugh and some times you take the heat, you have to learn the boundaries yourself.

All in all it's a very good site to keep on top of the Dinar game.

And oh, get a few more while you can.

-- August 30, 2006 11:44 AM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

mmm:

Taxmama here. Computer satellite system down for a few days. Back in office and all is well.

I don't lie, I posted what I thought was reliable information. I am not Satan. I am an ethical professional who, as we as everyone else on this thread are hoping for a better Iraq and also for our investments to come to fruition.

I think it's time for your medication.

-- August 30, 2006 11:47 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Dinar Phil,

I got a bounce on that link too, can you give a brief please.

Hi Taxmama,

I can see the usual round of exorcists are trying to exorcist you, dont worry, just keep your garlic fresh.

Are you sitting in a remote area, you are using a satellite system for your pjuter. Is it something you can hook up to your TV dish? Reason I'm asking is I'm using hot spots, and the downside with them is the fact that you have to go to them. Just curious if that system is a better system for me.

Sara,

I know you're sitting pissed at home reading this, I just want to give you a hug, ok.

HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUG,

Steve,

Your quote on the main effect of devaluation and revaluation of a currency, to me is the exact reason they should RV and could have done it long ago.

The main effect in Iraq with an RV would be more buying power to the Iraqi man, the down side would be harder to export their stuff.

Iraq dont have any production of significance of other goods other than oil, and oil is set in Dollars, not Dinars, so Iraq could easity revalue the Dinar, they can even overvalue the Dinar, as their export is almost zil.

If they let it loose on the Forex as a free trading currency, they need to back the value, but if they just RV, and still dont let it loose on the market, still peg it to the Dollar,an RV is just an arbitrary step.

-- August 30, 2006 12:15 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Currency and backing,

Currency itself is completely worthless, and the only reason it has value is because we say so, have trust in it.

We agree that this piece of paper is worth the value of 20 bucks, because it say 20 on that piece of paper.

In early currency systems the idea was there that ALL the currency have to be backed by an equal ammount of something that had equal value.

So one of the earliest backings was Gold. Every Dollar bill could be exchanged in a bank for the ammount of gold it represented. Gold foot.

The economy grew, and the ammount of Gold couldnt cover so they went to the Silver foot.

They figured out pretty quick that dealing with metals at all was too cumbersome, and finally they just ended up with a guarantee that the Dollar is worth a Dollar.

They just found out that the trust of it is enough to cover the currency, and it has been working fine ever since.

Now, the Dollar has backing, US have gold reserves and a lot of other equity, but if all the people on the world would line up outside the federal bank and try to get those reserves, it's a "sorry, no go". The Feds guarantee's that the Dollar is worth a Dollar, and that's it.

If you insist on getting you Dollar bill exchanged, for anything in similar value from the feds, they would take your goverment document, (dollar bill) and give you another certificate from the goverment (another Dollar bill)that this piece of paper is guaranteed to have the same value as the one you just turned in.

Swapping papers.

The Fort Knox Gold, you wont get it by walking in and demanding the backing for the Dollar.

In that very sense, the backing itself is a kind of showpiece, saying and showing , we are rich.

Thus we put the trust in the Dollar, thus we say it's worth what its worth.

Thus we can have so much Dollars out there that it will outweight the backing many many times over, and still say we trust it will be a Dollar.

In our daily life, we dont even have the doubt, in our mind when we go to the grocery store, wondering if they think this document is good or not.

Any doubt about it has vanished long ago, because you do everyday many transactions, where you pull your bills out, and nowhere have greenbacks been denied, so it's to the point where you just KNOW, that it's good.

So if the Iraq Dinars will be RV,d they dont have to account for EVERY Dinar out there, they just have to show that they HAVE backing, that they are solid, that they can trust it. That's all.

I've seen on this site long calculations on how many Dinars is out there and efforts to compare it with the internal reserves, and some calcuations on how much value the Dinar would have in comparison with those two figures.

It dont work that way.

It dont work that way in the US, in EU (where they even have a stateless currency), in Japan, in the UK anywhere.

A buck is a buck because you say so, your grocery store and your gas station will remind you about it, in case you have a tendency to doubt it.

The RV could be done just by saying so, anyone that wouldnt agree, would by force, have to agree, because his grocerystore will say so.

The backing of it has significance, is a part of it, but it's not a proposition where thay have to find King Salomons Treasure before they can do it.

-- August 30, 2006 12:50 PM ∞

---

taxmama wrote:

Roger:
We have a second home on an island 50 miles N.W. of Seattle. Our place is sitting in "no mans land" as far as high speed internet service. Had to go with a Satellite Service, but now find we need a new transmitter for it. If we didn't have the Satellite, we'd have to have Dial Up. YUKKKKKKK.

So, we deal with what we deal with.

-- August 30, 2006 12:58 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

They finally figured out how to split the oil pie so everybody was happy....well close to it anyway. Progress on oil issues should go much smoother now.

=============================================================================

Iraq resolves oil sharing issue, says deputy PM
Tue 29 Aug 2006 2:41 PM ET
By Sue Pleming

WASHINGTON, Aug 29 (Reuters) - Iraq's government has resolved a dispute over the sharing of oil revenues across the country but differences remain over who will hand out lucrative oil contracts, a senior Iraqi official said on Tuesday.

Deputy Prime Minister Barham Salih said the contentious issue of oil revenues was resolved during recent negotiations for a new law to regulate Iraq's oil and gas industry.

"Remarkably we have been able to settle oil revenues," said Salih in a video conference from Baghdad with reporters based in Washington.

http://today.reuters.com/News/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=N29447012

-- August 30, 2006 1:52 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Dinar Phil wrote:

"The dinar MAY never RV, Appreciate or go to the FX.

But, I think it will increase in value."

____________________________________________________________

?!?!?!?!?

Roger wrote:

"Iraq dont have any production of significance of other goods other than oil, and oil is set in Dollars, not Dinars, so Iraq could easity revalue the Dinar, they can even overvalue the Dinar, as their export is almost zil.

If they let it loose on the Forex as a free trading currency, they need to back the value, but if they just RV, and still dont let it loose on the market, still peg it to the Dollar,an RV is just an arbitrary step."

__________________________________________________________________________________

Arbitrary yes, sound no. As I stated twice, if an RV is based on oil potential/exports it will be pegged to one of the most volatile markets out there. This simply cannot be done in the absence of any other economic growth on Iraqs part. All eggs in one basket at that point. As for peggin to the dollar......

That is probably the last thing they would want to do at this point. The dollar has been very weak for the last 4 years or so and the market looks like its slowing down a lot faster than expected. Hell, the Fed is running from raising intrest rates again (they have been trigger happy for the last 2 years......). Given that scenario for the US, it's highly unlikely that a peg will be seen.

So in the absence of a hard peg, we must have a soft float or a managed float (managed is what we have now....). If they decide to continue floating, they must back up the currency with foreign reserves given that they have no other tangible assets at this point. (remember oil in the ground is as valuable as bathwater when it comes to monetary reserves....... it must be moving). This is the basis for my argument. An RV, if ever done, will be more closely linked to reserve currency status than oil..........bet on it.

To peg to oil would make them just as speculative as we are............

-- August 30, 2006 2:17 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Steve:

Kuwait and Saudi Arabia have tied their currency to the oil they produce and export. Those nations are not on the brink of poverty.

While a I agree with you regarding a RV not being soon. I do not agree oil could not be used as the marker. If what experts say concerning the reserves Iraq has. Iraq has the potential to be a very..........rich nation. Exceeding both Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

Curbing the current violence and killing Sadr. Then stability inside the central government. Next, a viable economic policy. Oil and finally RV. This is the road map to Iraqi success.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- August 30, 2006 2:40 PM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

Lance and All,

In answer to your question, I started by reading Outlaws link to http://www.mnf.iraq.com/index.php?option=comcontent&tasks
=view&id=2443&Itemid=41. If this articles doesn't come up just scroll back a little and find Outlaw's article on the military and click there.

I then decided to start reading http://www.iraqupdates.com articles to learn more about the iraqi people. The news clips are what is available to us in the Usa to understand the Iraqi people--unless of course we have someone like Lance around on the ground.

Now, on my terminology of using the term "federalist" I must apologize. I know this was not the correct terminology for the situation of the dictator Saddam. However, the flavor of the above articles I read are saying that the people of Iraq feel that the situation of having a federalist government (all power in the hands of Baghdad) feels like to them--what happened to the people under Saddam. The implication--Iraqi people are resistant (possibly fearful)to a federalist constitution and more in favor of a localized government for security because of their not to distant experience with Saddam. I think, this must be a point for all of us to keep in mind.

Diwaniyah is an area of stronghold for the cleric Sadr. Very dangeous and Lance you keep your head down.

The area of Diwaniyah is strongly against USA intervention. The observation of the people holding their dinars and not wanting any USA dollars is not surprizing in that area...when you consider, people have been beheaded for less.

What would be intersting--is if you would have that same experience in other areas of Iraq--that are not Shiite dominated as to see how the people feel about the usa dollar verses their dinars?. Just food for thought.

However, Lance, if you are shot at/or theatened in any way, protect yourself and don't worry about the politics of what is happening in the country! I think, I speak for everyone on the board, we want you back safe in the USA.

Again, given the back drop of the iraqupdates.com and www.mnf-iraq.com articles--I again ask my questions about revenues being spent in localized regions and how this could help the country Iraq and it's currency?.

Another observation, how would they do their accounting system (gallons of oil pumped vs. dollars taken in) for localized governments (as this appears to be what is happening now) to keep corruption from happening?.

The other piece of information I picked up on is that Iraq lacks their own ability to refine the oil and have had to contract with Iran to refine oil and other countries (see iraqupdates web site).

Any thoughts for how these situations would affect the dinar?.

Laura

-- August 30, 2006 3:21 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

The current peg IS arbitrary. An RV with a new higher valued peg wouldn't change anything, except the value of the Dinar.

When I say that an RV could take place, and it's even possible in Iraqs unique situation to even overvalue the Dinar, because they dont have much exports other than oil, I mean it could be done as arbitrary as they now have set the Dinar.

True, the Dinar will be pegged to the oil in that sense that the oil is bought and sold with Dollars, and the Dinar is pegged to the Dollar, so it would be an oil peg in that sense.

It's kind of a chicken and egg discussion, because in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait as mentioned in an example, there are no products of significance coming out of those countries, other than oil. Iraq may have a future of it's own with its agricultural and industrial hopefully coming power, but right now, it's oil.

So it doesnt matter, their economy will depend in very large number on oil.

If any of those countries can do like Israel, having a thriving industry, hi tech electronic development, high education, high this and high that, oil will be of less importance, even though oil will stay high in importance.

Israel could do a top notch hi tech, high producing country without oil.

Given the culture, traditions, education and the level Iraq is in right now, that would be only in the far forseable future.

Until then, Oil will be King in Iraq. (and Kuwait and Saudi Arabia)

So to say, it would be dumb to peg the Iraq economy to the oil, well, what else in heavens and earth DO they have there. Goatmilk, Falafels and Hooka pipes?

Lance,

A Q for you, do you have any info, reports or telltales about big investor companies stacking up their supply in Kuwait?

Also, keep your head down. Just curious, are you dressed like a normal, or do you run around with Kevlarvest and helmet, being armed. You may laugh about this question, but the pic here is that it's almost impossible to do anything without being covered from top to toe with all kind of gizmos.

-- August 30, 2006 4:55 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Did just get this in,

All Chase Banks in Ok City, OK and most location in Houston TX WILL CASH IN YOUR DINAR.

Per report they give .00068 on the Dinar, (680 Dollars to the Million)

Phone nbr 405 378 0006, and ask for Becky Ayers or Mariah.

This according to "Dr Dinar"

-- August 30, 2006 5:09 PM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

Okie,

Your article on Iraq's sharing the oil revenues is timely. Local government control or federalism?.

This question could decide the fate of Iraq.

Laura

-- August 30, 2006 8:19 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Rob N wrote:

"Kuwait and Saudi Arabia have tied their currency to the oil they produce and export. Those nations are not on the brink of poverty.

While a I agree with you regarding a RV not being soon. I do not agree oil could not be used as the marker."

############################################################################

They also have stable governmets and sound infrastructure. In addition, they have vast amonuts of foreign reserve currency which serves has a hedge against the volatility of the oil markets, which again was the entire point of my post..........

Roger wrote:

"The current peg IS arbitrary. An RV with a new higher valued peg wouldn't change anything, except the value of the Dinar."

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

I most certainly beg to differ here. The correct question is what wouldn't it change? Tell me that Iraq has enough currency reserves to support a highly inflated dinar value. It doesn't. Again, without a viable infrastructure its useless to peg anything to oil. Once again, oil in the ground is as valuable as bathwater. Potential profits matter not here. They need to base the dinar on the tangible assests they have now, and thats the foreign currency reserves. See my explanation to Rob above.......

Roger wrote:

"So to say, it would be dumb to peg the Iraq economy to the oil, well, what else in heavens and earth DO they have there."

*********************************************************************

I'm not saying RV is out of the question. It's out of the question at the levels you propose. It must be based on how much Iraq can pay out if people come to collect on the new valuation. Do you want that to be based on an as yet non-secure and most non-functioning oil industry or on the hard foreign currency they have now. Again, pegging to oil is feasible in the future once the reserve is large enough to serve as a hedge and the infrastructure and security improve.

As for what else they have there: 1)Agriculture- the leading producer in the region prior to Saddam I might add..... 2)Natural Gas - one of the largest reserves in the world.... BUT I wouldn't advocate tying the dinar to either of these sectors either. Why? See my reasoning on oil, sans volatility.

Bottom line is that I do not agree with Rob or Roger as to wether an RV is feasible. I disagree as to the model it should be tied to.

-- August 30, 2006 8:53 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Sorry that last line should read:

Bottom line is that I do not DISAGREE with Rob or Roger as to wether an RV is feasible. I disagree as to the model it should be tied to.

Danke

-- August 30, 2006 8:55 PM ∞

---

Dinar Phil wrote:

Golly, but ain't this Drama Fun??

Sorry to any and all for the dead link. Cut and Paste of article to follow.

Steve,

Here let me help..........

"The dinar MAY never RV, Appreciate or go to the FX.

But, I THINK it will increase in value."

Having seen soooo many Peg dates and 'insider tips ' on this site sometimes I wonder if more truth is in the pages of the National Enquirer.

For everyone's sake no days or weeks should be said. It creates too much stress for all involved here. Just give me anytime in 2008.

Roger, here you go........

New Capital Gains Tax Rates
http://www.fool.com/taxes/2003/taxes030613.htm

By Roy Lewis (TMF Taxes)
06/13/2003

One of the many changes made by the Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003 includes the way capital gains will be taxed. While this change hasn't received as much press as the $400 advance child tax credit payment, it's something that will have a tremendous impact on your investment decisions.

Under the prior law, long-term capital gains (gains on those assets held for more than one year) were taxed at a maximum rate of either 20% or 10%, depending on your income. Additionally, there was also a provision in the old law that allowed for a reduced long-term gain rate of 18% or 8% if your gain was attributable to what was called "superlong-term gains."

But that's all changed now. The 2003 Tax Act reduces the old 20% rate to 15% and the old 10% rate to 5%.

So, for example, let's say you bought 1,000 shares of Microsoft(Nasdaq: MSFT) more than a year ago for $15 a share, and recently sold your stake for $25 a share, for a gain of $10,000. Under the old rules, the tax on that gain would have been $2,000 (assuming you're among the majority of investors whose long-term gains are taxed at the higher rate). But under the new law, the tax will only be $1,500.

Another change is that the provisions regarding superlong-term gains has been repealed and removed. There are no special 18% and 8% rates for capital assets held for the superlong-term period. For most of us, this repeal is no big deal. But for other folks who went the route of the "deemed sale election" in order to get a head start on the superlong-term gain holding period, this change cost them a few tax dollars.

When the deemed sale election was made, it was irrevocable. Now that the rug has been pulled out from under those investors who deemed their stock sold and paid taxes on those shares early, there is no provision in the new tax law to revoke that election and get a refund of any taxes that were previously paid. The silver lining is that those same folks no longer have to wait the required five years in order to benefit from the lower capital gains rates. They can sell after they've met their long-term holding period obligations and reap the benefits of the new 15% and 5% rates.

Also, under the old law, there were two other special capital gains rates. One was a 25% rate imposed on depreciation taken on the sale of real property. The other was a 28% gain on the sale of collectibles (such as guns and coins). The new 2003 Tax Act did not change those rates on those specialty gains.

The effective date for these changes applies to gains recognized after May 5, 2003. And that is where the nightmare begins. For 2003, you'll have to deal with multiple long-term gains rates: those in place before May 5, 2003 (20% or 10% for long-term gains and 18% or 8% for qualified five-year gains), and the rates in place after May 5 (15% or 5%).

The new Schedule D (and Schedule D Worksheet) will look like the doodle sheet for Einstein's theory of relativity. Many lines will have to be added to the Schedule D and worksheets. The simplified capital gains tax worksheet that allowed for the reporting of some capital gains without the necessity of preparing and attaching the Schedule D will be a thing of the past. It's simply going to be a mess. And the IRS already has big concerns that the mid-year effective date of this provision, coupled with the multiple rates involved, will cause complexity and burdens for taxpayers (ya think?), and that many returns will have errors.

It'll be more important than ever before to keep good and correct records on any assets that you sell, paying special attention to dates.

Here's some good news: For those of you looking down the horizon, the new 5% capital gains rate will be reduced to 0% (that's right -- nada, nothing, zilch!) in 2008.

But don't get too excited. All these new tax provisions sunset after 2008. Unless these changes are made permanent before then, the tax law will revert back to the way it was before the passage of the 2003 Tax Act. We still have a few years before the sunset provisions kick in, but remember that those provisions are out there.

I suspect that we'll see more than a few more changes to the tax law between now and 2008. So stand by and stay tuned.

Roy Lewis lives in a trailer down by the river and is a motivational speaker when not dealing with tax issues, and he understands that The Motley Fool is all about investors writing for investors. You can take a look at the stocks he owns as long as you promise not to ask him which stock to buy. He'll be glad to help you compute your gain or loss when you finally sell a stock, though.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Legal Information. ©1995-2005 The Motley Fool. All rights reserved.

____________________________________________________________

Hope this helps not just on the Dinar deal but also on any other possible capital gains you may want to take in 2008.

p.s. Who else would have told you?

-- August 30, 2006 10:47 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

Well, you seem to be in the grove, cool.

We seem to agree on a few things and disagree on a few things, but I can see in your reasoning that you didnt understand one word of the post, "Currency and Backing".

The concept of chasing a complete backing before the currency is revaluated is not a working model. Just re-read the "Currency and Backing" carefully until the conceptual understading sinks in.

You want an old model that worked in the 1800's.No currencies around the world works on that model now.

I'm not sure what you didnt get, but I can see that you are chasing one piece of gold(or similar) as backing for every piece of currency there is.

The Goverment must have something with value x, before they can issue a currency with the same value x. I'm trying to tell you it don't work that way.

-- August 30, 2006 11:01 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Dinar Phil,

Wow, keep coming back.I need some time to melt this info. We have a Taxmama here also, and the info given above might get a second look. Loking forward to get this straight.

-- August 30, 2006 11:11 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Roger,

The big thing that almost everyone missed in the NY Fed link was this:

“In a fixed exchange rate system, both devaluation and revaluation can be conducted by policymakers, usually motivated by market pressures.”

Remember that Iraq is a fixed rate system, fixed "Pegged" to the U.S. Dollar. So they can RV anytime that they (the GoI) want or need to. Why is this important for them to RV before it goes Open Market? Because they can't after they put it on the FOREX if they leave it as a floating currency. They have to raise the value before they go that direction. Why do they want it to go on the FOREX as a floating currency? Because it will find it's true value, or actually be speculated upon by the market and be valued / traded above its value. More value and bigger bang. It will be speculated upon because all the foreign investment, especially in the Oil Sector. So IAW the above they will RV due to market pressure, both internally and externally.

Another thing that struck me was a post on one of the other sites that mentioned something to the effect that; We (the U.S.) do not want to be perceived as having destroyed the Iraqi Economy and the buying power of the Dinar. Interesting perception.

So you had it right.

Another biggie that some seem to have forgotten from the first of this month is the following in the SBA reply from the CBI concerning their plans:

8. *** Finally, the CBI will consider the possibility of a gradual appreciation of the Iraqi dinar if needed, which could have a positive effect on both inflation and the process of dedollarization.

I finally found a definition of Dollarization / Dedollarization that explains what it means. Good news for us:

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/04/082504.asp

I believe that they are very, very close, but that is just my opinion and we know what that means. Part of this is just a feeling from the last couple of weeks dealing with the locals. I think the word on the street is to hold and don't trade for dollars. Probably no specifics but a rumor that has built steam over here.

Please remember that this is just my opinion and not a reason to sell the kids and wife to buy more Dinar with.

-- August 31, 2006 1:58 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

All,

Diwaniyah is "Not" a Sadr stronghold. The Mahdi Army moved in last week trying to frighten the locals and the government. Got their butts kicked. The locals are Shiite's but called in the Feds because they don't want and can't stand Adolph Jr. (Sorry Sadr Jr.).

Yes I feel like the Mummy in Kevlar and Flak Vest. Adds about 10-20 degrees on top of the 120+ outside already. No I can't carry a weapon (Contractor). A little thing called the Geneva Convention. Plus carrying a weapon, just makes them tend to pick you out as a target. FYI, my area is most of Southern Iraq from Basrah to Ramadi, but excluding the Baghdad area, so I deal with both Sunni and Shiite's. Before this is was Northern Iraq and most of the Kurdish area, so with the exception of Baghdad, I have been throughout most of Iraq in the last year.

Sara,

Come back. You are better then letting them get to you. You are missed.

Lance

-- August 31, 2006 2:35 AM ∞

---

Terri wrote:

Here's a link to an encouraging news release:

http://www.iraqdirectory.com/DisplayNews.aspx?id=1969">http://www.iraqdirectory.com/DisplayNews.aspx?id=1969">http://www.iraqdirectory.com/DisplayNews.aspx?id=1969

==============================

So, anyone have any thoughts on the possibility of a R/V on the 3rd, after their "current" 3day "intense" meeting AND before the big "fair"...it would SURE be nice.

Come on guys, there's some REALLY intelligent individuals on this forum...give me your opinion.

-- August 31, 2006 7:12 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Terri....

Good information in that article....thanks.

I believe they're getting very close to dividing the "golden goose", AKA big oil, and once they get it established in a solid hydrocarbon law things will move quickly in the economy.

The Sunni minority is running scared because they have nothing if they don't get a piece of the oil pie. A lot of the violence is their way of negotiating for a better deal.

When passed into law by the Government, the foreign investment law and the hydrocarbon law will open the floodgates for the flow of money into Iraq. Hopefully this will allow them to RV their Dinar at a good rate.

Forget past economic models...with that much oil in the ground a path to back-up cash reserves will be found to complete a decent RV. Just remember...oil = assets.

-- August 31, 2006 9:40 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I'm not sure when they will RV the Dinar but doesn't it feel good to own a bunch of them right now!!!

I wish they would hurry up...I already have my house picked out on a beach in Thailand....

-- August 31, 2006 9:47 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Roger wrote:

"The Goverment must have something with value x, before they can issue a currency with the same value x. I'm trying to tell you it don't work that way."

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

How does a government handle folks who come to collect thier native currencies then? You don't need one to one, but you need SOMETHING. Oil aint it at this point.........

I say in the short term to ensure that the value of the dinar isn't too volatile, they need a good hedge. Again, RV before a release on the international market is needed, just not based on sepculative oil revenue or pricing. Too dicey at this stage.

Once good security and infrastructure are in place, then its wise to base on the primary cash cow. Every major country operates with about 70% percent backing. I find it hard to believe the IMF will allow Iraq with all of it's internal strife to start outside of the box. So go ahead, value the dinar to .3 or .25 based on current oil revenues and watch it slide into oblivion while Iraq attempts to get its stuff together........

Better to start at .01-.05 based more on currency backing, then let it float up, or peg it to the dollar at that point if they must. A valuation into this range enures proper backing while sufficently increasing the Iraqi citizens buying power.

Let me make it clear 1) I do understand very well currency and backing (well enough to debate it anyway) 2) I understand that at the end of the day, Iraq can do whatever they would like to the dinar. It is completely arbitrary. This was never my argument. My only point of contention was that basing backing on oil at this point is a very shaky proposition at best. I would beg to differ with anyone that has a different viewpoint at this point in time........

Roger wrote:

"I'm not sure what you didnt get, but I can see that you are chasing one piece of gold(or similar) as backing for every piece of currency there is."

####################################################################

I got it all actually. And perhaps my thinking is not clear on this so I will attempt to explain it for a third time (feel free to look at my previous two posts on this for further clarification.....). Using the foreign reserves is a BASIS for the inital RV of the dinar. From there, go where ever you would like. Peg to this, peg to that, float here, float there, whatever....... The inital RV should be based on tangible assets then go up from there. To base it on what revenues should be at this point is just foolish, its complete speculation. Its like saying "Lets cross our fingers and hope this Sadr issue goes away and that infrastructure can be redone in about a years time." No reason to do that. Go conservative and head from there.

If they RV to a value they can't support, they can kiss foreign investment goodbye. People will run from this currency as it plummets.

-- August 31, 2006 9:55 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Just FYI fo those that dont know: From the CBI website- M2 is about 18.5 trillion right now (thats total dinar, period). The foreign currency reserve was last quoted at about 12.7 billion. So lets do some simple math:

18.5 trillion divided by 12.7 billion

I'll bet the answer will raise some hair on the back of your neck. Looks suspiciously like an exchange rate we are familiar with eh? (1456)

It seems the CBI is following a system that some here say "dont work that way".

My rationale for a modest RV was that the amount in circulation is around is actually 10 trillion or so. So using the 70% percent backing model we would get:

7 trillion divided by 12.7 billion = 551.18

This is how I initally came up with my RV value of .01 at best. Still at that, its already 5 times the supportable rate. Perhaps this difference is easily made up by oil revenue in the interim.

Hopefully that clears up my thinking..........

-- August 31, 2006 11:19 AM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Hi Steve.

Whilst I hope you are wrong, your reasoning does make a lot of sense. I think we will all need to learn to be more patient before we see any big returns from our investments.

IMO.

The general concensus seems to be that the Iraqi government take an age to accomplish anything. Perhaps we should take a look closer to our own well established democracies and see how long it takes to achieve any real changes on the ground from our own politicians.

Have the U.S. or U.K. governments, for all of their debating, policymaking and relatively unlimited resources, got a handle on drug abuse, gang killings or immigration? I read that some of the states in America have a higher murder rate than Iraq. Food for thought.

I see the Iraqi government as doing incredibly well, and making good, steady progress, considering they are a fledgling democracy, starting from scratch, with huge security and economic problems to overcome. The odds are stacked against them, but they are getting there.

Cut them a bit of slack, go fishing, read a book, call up a friend, find a new hobby or update your projected RV rates on your spreadsheet (again). Good things happen to those that are patient enough. Life might be a race, but take time out to enjoy the journey; take in the scenery and talk to those that you meet on your way. It's not about whether you came first or last, it's about how much you enjoy the race.

To put it another way, start off at jogging pace; a pace which you can sustain for a marathon. If you sprint in the hope that the finish is just around the corner, you might get cramps and pull out of the race.

Some see this as a short run. I'm ready for the marathon.

-- August 31, 2006 12:29 PM ∞

---

Vador wrote:

Hello all,

Got my Dinar while servering over in Bahrain in the summer of 2004 with the Navy. Have 1.5 mil all in 25,000 bills. Mailed them home and haven't looked back. Digging through my desk today I came up on them and figured I would jump on here and see what's what with value. Looks like not much has changed in the dinar department on this blog. Are the 25,000 notes still good currency over in Iraq????

-- August 31, 2006 2:08 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Yes Vador, they are. While I have my own opinion on just having 25k notes, they are still used in Iraq and will be for the forseeable future. The hope of most is that they do like the US did and gradually take them out of circulation when the time comes......

-- August 31, 2006 2:26 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Nelly B wrote:

"Some see this as a short run. I'm ready for the marathon."

################################################################

As am I. I am personally hoping for no RV till 2008. I don't want the constant questions arising: cash out or hold........

My honest assessment is 5-10 years from now we might wake up and find we can pay our cars and mortgages off, with perhaps some left over to prepare for retirement (assuming you have around 10 mil or so)..........

-- August 31, 2006 2:39 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Vador,

Your notes are good, just hang in there.

Lance,

Good point, apart from a needed RV, better buying power for the Iraqi man and a lot of social unrest taken care of with a stronger Dinar, just the fact that it have been revalued UP once, before they let it loose on the open market, is a perception of strenght.

Lance,

I'm seing your viewpoint. Yes currency needs backing, you can't come to a table emptyhanded, there have to be something in it.

The reserves they have in the CBI is one way to show the world that they are rich and strong, and have assets. Oil is another way, future oil revenues are actually also another way to show that the currency is viable.

You might do a calculation and find a similaritiy between Iraq assets and current value of the Dinar, and yes, they might even have done it that way. Remeber, the current peg is arbitrary, any future peg is arbitrary, only true value ever will be when free traded.

However taking that example and saying that it's not true that,it doesnt work that way, is like taking your old uncle Ernie, that smoked all his life and lived until 97, and claim that smoking is not bad for your health.

This is the way it works, you smoke, you go onto a lottery with 85 white marbles, and 15 black marble. Put your hand in the pocket and pick one, thats the game. Pick the bad one and you are going to die of smoke related causes. Pick the good one, and you can enjoy your smokes, but dont prove to the world that because you picked the good one, smoking have no bad effects.

I'm telling you again, it dont work the way you describe.

With the exact ammount of backing on the Dinar, they can revaluate the Dinar at will.

The backing will not change much from one day to another, but a revaluation can change the value completely into a different range from one day to another.

It's in the trust of the currency, not in the backing, the trust is in a showpiece, call it Fort Knox or oilfields if you want.

The worth of the Dollars out there, is many times more than the value of Fort Knox Gold.

The same goes down to micro economy. Take one bank alone.

The assets of that bank is in future trust. Money you are paying back to them, borrowed with interest. They actually dont HAVE the money, they have a contract with you to pay them for 30 years against a house.

The actual money a bank have is far far less.

You can completely bankrupt any bank, by one day lining up all their account holders and do a full withdraw and closeout of the account.

It's trust.

No currency have full backing in assets for the value of their currency, thats way back in time when we had Goldfoot and Silverfoot.

Perhaps in a sense it's an illusion, or a trick, but to put it very very plain:

Show them Fort Knox or an oilfield, and they trust you, put the value you want or need for the operation and Joe Blow goes for it.

You have tried to mathematically prove that an RV is ,showing the current Iraq assets, their backing, not possible at this time.

Yes they can do it, and this is the way it will work when they do it:

The CBI. -"Hi, We the Iraq Central Bank, have revaluateed the Dinar to the value of 15 cents per dinar towards the Dollar"

The public. -"Cool, did you hear that, it's worth 15 cents now".

-- August 31, 2006 3:12 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Roger, Roger, Roger:

While I do admire your persistence, you lack a sense of practicality.

The entire essence of your post is based on trust. Ok, lets do this your way....

Lets examine exactly what we can trust in Iraq, besides the known foreign currency reserves that I have beaten to death......

1) Oil production? - Gotta go with a no here until security/infrastructure improves.
2) The Dinar? - Dont fall into a trap here Roger. Its been relatively worthless since its inception. Yes public faith is gaining, but its not where it needs to be yet.
3) The Government? - Corruption is a very real issue here. Goota give this a thumbs down as well.

Your list grows thin Roger.......

Let me put it like this: Yes people have some faith in the currency. Don't fall into the trap of believing that its anything along the lines of what we have in our currency. It been worthless since its come out, waving a magic wand doesn't change that long term.

I've discussed this earlier, and yes, I agree an RV will help in the short term. Gives people some basics and perhaps some extras they didn't think possible before.

But let's not go fudge overboard here. A sudden RV to .3 or higher suddenly makes 75% of Iraqis very wealthy by US standards (I read that a lab technician makes 200k a month..... do the math). Short term this is wonderful. Long term this is a disaster. It must start lower and work its way up to .3. Infrastructure and security are not anywhere close to where they need to be to support an economy at that level.

Roger wrote:

"No currency have full backing in assets for the value of their currency, thats way back in time when we had Goldfoot and Silverfoot."

##############################################################

You need to re-read my last post bud. I believe I explicitly stated by using 70% (as all other major countries do....) that they do not need full backing. Let me know if this continues to confuse you.......

Again, our disagreement lies in your advocating an RV based on as yet unsecure production/assets. No can do......no can do, sorry Rog.

-- August 31, 2006 5:03 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

The PM and Oil Minister are having a one on one meeting in the green zone……….

PM- We need to do something right now to show some progress in the economy….either that or Bush will come over here and kick the screaming shi’ite out of me.

OM- Well my cousin just planted more okra and he’s going to have a reeeal good crop this year.

PM- Look dumbass, get serious, I didn’t like that joke the first ten times you told it to me and it’s not funny now…get it!!!!

OM- OK, OK chill out! But…I’ve been reading all those crazy Dinar forums in the US and most of them seem like nut cases but the people at the T&B forum seem to think the answer to our problems is to make the Dinar worth about one US dollar.

PM- Hmmm….let me look at your eyes….have you been drinking sadiki again and smoking your hubbly-bubbly pipe…Ok then…tell me more.

OM- Well, some of them think no way, because our foreign reserves suck…ya know we’ve only got 12.7 billion greenbacks. But others think we can do it because of all the oil we have.

PM- This is really starting to piss me off…that SOB at the CBI always has his hand in the pot….he’s robbing us blind! He can’t afford that big house and all those young women on his regular salary ….and he always drinks way too much sadiki. This is starting to depress me…give me a shot of sadiki and give me your best thoughts…..any thoughts!!!!

OM- Well…our Saudi cousins….when faced with the same situation years ago had a brilliant idea….they turned the oil in the ground into quick cash by selling concessions to develop and share the oil fields with the highest bidder. Hell…it worked for them and they’re dumber than a hoe handle.

PM- Oh my God….I mean Allah….this is a great idea coming from such a little shi’ite like you…get the ball rolling….invite all the biggies in the oil patch to the green zone and let the haggling begin. If they’re scaredy cats and don’t want to come here because of a few blood stains on the pavement tell them “adios” and if they can’t run with the big dogs…then stay on the porch!

OM- OK….done deal….let’s celebrate by having a shot of that Jim Beam you keep in your top drawer…I mean..I hope you have some in there…

-- August 31, 2006 5:43 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

ISX-Data.com Editorial
Re-Value the Iraqi Dinar? Yes!
One Investor's Take on the Valuation of the Dinar

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By: Roger Isaksson (email)
Published: 08/31/2006
this author's past articles

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Iraq's current government has been staggering badly under the pressure of growing violence and widespread infrastructure failures. As a result, government consolidation is taking place, including dismissals, arrests, and the emergence of strong personalities. Yet still, most government participants appear to lack the will to stick their neck out and make bold moves that would ultimately help the Iraqi people.

The Iraqi Dinar-
Economically, according to my estimates, the Iraqi dinar is hopelessly undervalued, and should have been revalued long ago. The dinar is held down artificially by the Central Bank of Iraq (CBI), resulting in very little buying power for the Iraqi working class. Currently, most of the day-to-day products needed by Iraqi's are produced outside of the country, but when buying it with an undervalued currency, nobody except the intrepid merchant benefits. In order to justify the costs of manufacture and import into the country, most things that we in the West take for granted are priced far beyond the average Iraqi's ability to pay for it, due in large part to the vast exchange rate differences.

Due to these currency differences, few Iraqi's can afford the items they want or need. As fewer people can afford them, the market for these items is artificially small, resulting in less competition and higher prices. This, coupled with the day-to-day disruption of goods and services due to the violence plaguing large tracts of the country, have led to high levels of inflation.

By revaluing the Iraq Dinar to it's true value towards the market, the Iraqi people will regain a measure of their buying power back. Imported goods will now be within reach of nearly everybody, helped to infuse the Iraqi economy with a new vitality.

True Dinar Value
In analyzing the true value of the dinar, many have predicted a value as high as parity with the US dollar ($1 = 1 dinar), while more conservative estimates have been in the range of a $0.01 = 1 dinar. This range, of course, can only be estimated, because the dinars true strength can only be determined, as with all currencies, once it is freely traded on the world market.

The continued lack of purchasing power of the Iraq dinar will be yet another factor in a long line of social problems, and some have the idea that those problems have to be addressed first before the economy can be fixed. The Iraqi man on the street is having a hard time feeding his family, and in such dire circumstances he may even be tempted to work against his fellow Iraqi's through insurgency, crime and even terrorism. This writer urges the current Iraqi Administration; fix the dinar.

The "Big Guys" are standing at the gate waiting to get in, but have to wait until they get assurances that the investment will not be socialized as in Saudi Arabia, Iran and Venezuela, or lost completely due to a full-blown civil war. The new Iraq Investment Laws are tentative right now, but hopefully the Iraqi Government will make it a top priority when they return to session this fall. However, as with everything in Iraq these days, this supposition is a moving target at best.

-- August 31, 2006 6:37 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Okie,

Man o man, that was some funny reading.

Great info from the ISX data.com editorial as well.

Things diefinitely need to be hashed out. Security is paramount. Without it, nothing proceeds. End of story......

-- August 31, 2006 7:15 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Okie,

My last name is Isaksson.

-- August 31, 2006 7:48 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve, Steve, Steve,

*rolling eyes, smiling, shaking head slowly*

Ok, if we want to communicate in that way, no prob.

You are convinced more than anything else that an RV can't take place. You have worked out your proofs and if they seem watertight for you, all the power to you.

I say it can RV, you say it can't.

Ok.

-- August 31, 2006 8:03 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Okie,

Love the PM and OM's meeting.

Re the ISX editorial,

I wrote it, and the editor thought it looked grat and wondered if he could publish it, I said ok, but he has to remeber that English is my fourth language, and my is and are, will on occasion be mixed. I aske dhim to go over the grammar.

The endresult is what he wrote above, I say about 70% of what I wrote is there, rest of it I have never even seen before, some of the words I dont even know what they mean.

Still he added my name to it as all my words.

So be if you want to write an article, it may come in your name, but a lot of the stuff might be from someone else in the same article.

-- August 31, 2006 8:13 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

So be CAREFUL if you... (see what happens when you're not careful)

-- August 31, 2006 8:16 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

LOL Roger, come now........

You really gotta read my posts again......

I never said RV wasn't possible, that's simply not true.

Lets take deep breaths. When you're ready look at my original post again, I'll provide a link for convienence:

http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2006/07/iraqi_dinar_dis_4.html#124096

You see? We DO agree. We just don't like the same color paint....... I can respect that =)

-- August 31, 2006 8:18 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Roger.....

Great article you wrote for the ISX editorial...I agree with you.....

-- August 31, 2006 8:39 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Uhhhhh Roger,

You don't work in Stockholm do you? Just wondering......

-- August 31, 2006 8:47 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

Have been there, actually lived there for ten years. Have lived in Copenhagen , Norway and been all around Europe.

I've got my loyalty to the Stars and Stripe, but it's like a new child. Love for the first child did'nt cut in half when the second came. You can love them all equally as much.

Have you been in Stockholm? Have a lot of fun stories from there. Hope I didnt step on your foot if you were there.

-- August 31, 2006 9:17 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

Perhaps we can agree on that, when it comes to the prospects of an RV.

I do believe that the rest of the bloggers will agree on something completely different though, probably that I talk far too much and you are far too complex.

-- August 31, 2006 9:24 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Roger wrote:

"Perhaps we can agree on that, when it comes to the prospects of an RV.

I do believe that the rest of the bloggers will agree on something completely different though, probably that I talk far too much and you are far too complex."

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

We all have our faults. Perhaps these aren't so bad as faults go.........

-- August 31, 2006 10:20 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

Geniouses like you and me should start our own blogsite, calling it the Club For Internal Admiration.

Toss out an equation or talk Einstein and they all say "Ahhh'.

It will work until Okie comes by and give us a fatlip reminding us that the real world is solid.

-- August 31, 2006 11:01 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Steve and All,

Most keep saying that without increased Security that the Economy, and thus the Dinar will never improve. You have all been watching the MSM too much and are infected with the doom and gloom.

Most of the Terrorists, Militias, ect.. are made up of unemployed, uneducated thugs. If they were employed or had a future then much of the killings, bombings, and such would go away. For those that have been following Iraq and the Dinar for a long time there was always a lack of any news or talk about the Iraq economy and the dinar. But much talk about security and the bloody insurgency. This was all during the interim government(s), when fixing the problem was viewed as just needing more bullets. The new and permanent GoI has looked at the problem and determined that the insurgency must be attacked not only with bullets but by improving the economy. Now you can Google and find numerous articles about the Iraq economy every day, where before (prior to June ’06) you might get lucky to find even one piece of news concerning the economy per week. Now it is everywhere. Prior to June I can think of only 2 or 3 articles in the last couple of “YEARS” that even mentioned the CBI, much less had interviews with the Director General, who now seems like he is looking for a part in the next Tom Cruise film, and giving interviews to get it.

So the war against the insurgency is now a double edged sword. Bullets and the Economy, as stated by the new permanent GOI. Having worked for many major international companies over the years both before and after my military career, I can tell you that the piss ant insurgency here is no problem for them to deal with. They are used to dealing with countries with problems such as these. They have whole corporate groups that do nothing but figure the Actuarial Tables for numbers of employees killed to number of barrels produced, and the associated costs figured out to the penny. This may sound heartless, but it is just good business sense, and you have to keep the investors happy.

So the thing you have to look at is using an improved Economy as the ultimate weapon. Please do not think that because Sadr’s little weenies blew up another Market or executed another dozen Sunni’s that it is going to stop the GoI from going ahead and improving the Economy or even revaluation of their currency. Apples and Oranges. Take a deep breath, turn off ABC, CNN, CBS, FOX, etc… think about the situation, and look at the big picture. One other thing that most forget is that Iraq is a pretty good sized country (About the same size as California) with 25 million + inhabitants. If only a hundred or less every day are being killed due to the insurgency, I wonder how that compares to the numbers in other countries or even California. It is only the manner in which they are killed, and brought to you in living color by the MSM (with there own agenda) that make this seem like the end of the world. Even the MSM (in small print at the bottom of the screen or page) will state that the insurgency is only affecting less then 10% of the population, and most of that in the Sunni Triangle and some districts of Baghdad. Please take the MSM antidote, and realize that any revaluation of their currency or improvement in the economy is a bigger threat to the idiots with guns, then any Tank we could use against them. The Economy is the weapon of choice.

Lance

P.S. Roger, loved your Editorial!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- September 1, 2006 12:18 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,

Finally got to the definition of Dollarization. Thanks, it was more complex than I thought but it explained it good.

Nelly B,

Yes it's true, some pages back it was posted the five or six citices in the US that had a higher violent death per capita than Iraq. Worth noting is the top one, New Orleans, with DOUBLE the violent deaths, compared with Iraq, not even counting the deaths from Hurricane Katrina.

All,

What a ride, the Dinar ride is spectacular.

We're trying to solve things we cant do s..t about, still after kicking the mud back and forth the picture of a perfect Dinar scenario chrystalizes, and it's just frustrating to have it all, but knowing that over in Baghdad, there is bank representatives from all over the world hanging over the shoulder of an Iraqi, telling him how to reboot a computer.

Knowing that the new minister of something is put in his position because it's a quota between Kurds, Shia and Sunnis. Wrong quota or any imperfect balance and the bickering starts. Competence for the post is secondary to his religous or ethnic belonging.

I can see in my head a typhical meeting, in the CBI, lot of screaming, lot of people gesticulating, cut each other off, and lot of financial theories that belong in some socialistic scrapheap, tossed around.

Advisors that kept the book keeping at his uncles "Used Camels dealer ship" are posted and will air their every opinion quoting the quraan and the Uncle.

"Honest Ahmeds Used Camels" was in business for almost a season, before he was arrested, so his book keeper (that got away) have probably the highest resumee amongst them, and therefore have got an honorable seat in the CBI's think tank.

The advisers from the World Bank is serving them bananas everyday in their snackbowl at the center of the room, and there is a going bet when they Iraqis will see the ironi. The bet have been open for four years.

The Iraqis are starving, cant buy anything with their currency, and the agenda on todays CBI's discussion is : Does this have to do with weak money, or is it Allahs will?

The meeting was concluded after it was found out that the financial crisis is a Jewish conspiracy, and the only force able to deal with that is Hezabolla or Sadrs gang, so orders are given to not disturb the religious rituals of bombings shooting and murders by Sadrs gang.

An uneducated starving man was bought to plant a bomb, that killed seven people, one of the victims was a mother with a child.

On closer examination it showed that she was not married, as she was living in sin, she must be the explanation to the bomb. No further investigation was neccesary as justice was served.

Dont worry they have it figured out, and are taking continous steps right now to fix the situation.

-- September 1, 2006 1:01 AM ∞

---

carl wrote:

Lance:
Totally Correct on the weapon of choice....
Give a human being financial security so he or she can support themselves, their love ones and improve their quality of life...and you will have someone who is less likely to pickup a weapon against you...

-- September 1, 2006 8:16 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Lance.....

Back to your post about lack of Dinars for sale by local dealers.

I got some feedback from a friend at Al-Asad where they have three local dealers. Two were out of Dinar (witholding?) and the other one would only offer 100k for sale (being polite to customers?).
Sure is something new...and a definite indicator these guys are hearing news about the Dinar.

-- September 1, 2006 9:36 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Got some e-mail feedback on the IMX editorial I wrote, Chase is exchanging Dinars, and B of A seem to be in preparations of doing it also. I'm thinking just by the fact that some bigger banks are starting and setting up exchange of a currency that is not traded, why would they do that.

I wonder if the Iraq Dinar is setting up being not only revaluated, but actually let loose on the market as a free traded currency??????

That would be Bingo.

Lance and all,

I am POSITIVE in my attitude, to wards the Iraq future. Lance you are seeing it with eyes that always will refresh a tired eye. My above posting about CBI's internal meeting is in response to sheer frustration of a long time stagnant Dinar.

Okie,

There is movement going on now, the banks seem setting up Dinar trade, theyre holding the Dinars, and there seem to be words on the street in Iraq, to hold them.

I think we are up against the showdown.

Get another mil while you can.

-- September 1, 2006 11:48 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

A sign of the times! A year ago it would take several weeks to get a response from Warka Bank. The message below was sent back in two days....a record. I believe the reason they're kissing our arse so much is because the big banks will be moving in soon and these guys don't want to see their customers go bye, bye.

============================================================================

Dear Mr. xxxxxx

Thank you for choosing our bank and taking interest in our fine services.

Please be informed that I confirm receiving you stock pick list which I will firmly execute it in the coming ISX trading session details of which will be provided to you once completed and purchased.

I would like to bring to your kind attention that I will be personally handling your ISX stock purchases providing you with our very best banking services and care ensuring your total satisfaction and comfort.

I really look forward in providing you with my full cooperation and assistance and I am positive that you will be highly delighted and overwhelmed with our banking services and products.

I am positive that you will be highly delighted and overwhelmed with our banking services and products.

Best regards,

Mxxxxx Gxxxxxx

ISX Dept.

-- September 1, 2006 2:07 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Okie - Did s/he actually post the last sentence twice?

I wonder if they would be kind enough to send your money twice? I'm sure that would make you highly delighted and overwhelmed, no?

Roger - If they do RV soon, I think it will only be so that you can't buy all of their dinars! :) love your posts & editorial.
If I didn't know better, I'd think you knew what you were talking about :)

Lance - You keep on digging up them 24 carrat nuggets. Much appreciated. Keep your head down.

-- September 1, 2006 3:07 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Just an interesting factoid:

SafeDinar is out of 1k and 5k notes now. They ran out of 5k about a month ago, but the 1k situation is new.

This is only one example, but I am hearing a lot of chatter about lower denominations in general being out of stock......

Perhaps we will finally see some action.........

Go Go GadgetDinar Pegger!!!!!!!

-- September 1, 2006 4:14 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Nelly B.....

Yes...she repeated it twice. I had to blank out her name but it was a Western name. Must be married to some ex-pat in the green zone...

-- September 1, 2006 7:58 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Nelly B,

So you think you know what I'm talking about, ??? good, cause I dont have a clue.

Re.my Dinars, naaa, honestly we are the small guys in this game. Bigger banks and finance institutions are way way ahead. I can just imagine how many of those Dinar bills US gov have. The sums we(small private investors) are holding, in my opinion, is in the peanut range in comparision.

There is no hard factual statements done about an RV, so to get the picture you have to puzzle a complete Iraq scenario together.

The way I see it, the signs are coming together.

Smaller notes are hard to get, they are probably held hard in Iraq right now.

Dollar is not looked after at the internal money exchange dealers in Iraq. Something is cooking over there. I have a hard time believing anything can be kept a secret over there, and the word is out on the strets.

Banks in the US is starting to exchange Dinars very recently, a currency that is not even traded openly yet. That, I see as something is going to move very soon. Banks in general is more conservative than Rush Limbaugh.

Iraq just can't continue to have anything that close resembles an economy with its currency hopelessly undervalued. They can't buy anything, and social unrest will breed with an unfixed currency/ economy.

Big oil guys are piling up and it starts to look like the build up by the Allied Forces preparing for the Normandie invasion.

Investment laws are top priority in Iraq.

It would be a financial disaster for Iraq, to NOT RV before they come in.

The different factions of Iraq seems to have agreed on the oilsplit.

As far as I see it, everything is ready for it, any day, any week, any month, any year....oh no.

It's all there for an RV, if they will go per the plan, the one you found on page 53, in their battle plan, to increase the value of the Dinar in a step by step, per need, or if they will start trading the currency at any step of the way, dont know, but all ingrediences for a happy RV are in my eyes in place.

I think the argument that they have to fix the economy first, doesnt hold water, because the Dinar RV will be a tremedous fix, and from that point in a substantial difference can be felt for the Iraq man on the street.

It will be more a cure, than a fix.

I'm not saying that because I'm very biased , owning Dinars, the cure for Iraq right now, IS an RV.

-- September 1, 2006 10:14 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Okie, Roger,

I think it will go Global/Internationally Traded/FX’d, very soon, and it has to happen before or in conjunction with the FIL. The reason is clear if you think about it. The “F” in FIL is for foreign, and that is foreign in relation to Iraq. Unless the IQD is internationally traded, how will they manage their money and economy? Dedollarization is the operative term here. They (the CIB) said it in the SBA. Other indicators are numerous. The IQD has dried up!!!!! Can hardly get it anywhere, and the most telling is not second hand, but mine in trying to exchange Dollars for Dinars with the locals over here. When I have always done this in the past it was a gesture of good will and support.

Note: Please understand that this was not my money, but Uncle Sam’s, so none of this was my own money, which would have been a violation of my contract, and they pay me far too well to jeopardize my job. The exchange was always done at below cost and value with the exchange rate usually done at around 1,000-1,200 IQD or less per dollar. It built good will, a chance to talk and drink chi, or camel’s milk (yuck), and build some rapport. I have always had to account for every single penny of this. I would usually take around $10K on a trip depending on where I was going and the number of local poobah’s I would have to visit. (FYI, all my IQD were bought and paid for in Kuwait long ago and remain there to this day). I never looked at this whole process, as determining whether the IQD was revaling or doing anything else because it was an artificial setup to build contacts, and had no effect on any investments, or reflected the true state of the IQD. It was just a foot in the door, and as I posted before, the only information of an investment nature was understanding that the IQD “HAD” become the currency of choice over here.

So this is what “I” am looking at:

1. In the last two weeks, in about 10 different settings I was offered less then 600K IQD, and that grudgingly, when I was normally coming back with 8-14M.

2. Now hearing that many of the On-Line Dinar Traders are holding or out. (I contacted 4 of these, 3 said it would be a week or 2 before they got new shipments in, and the other would sell me some but the price was now $1,045.00 per million plus shipping, but I had to hurry as it would RV in the next couple of days (Standard dealer BS, or maybe not.)).

3. The big banks are getting ready to trade in Dinars or already are.

4. Many of the FX Sites that used to ignore totally, or not track the IQD, now have listings.

5. Called a couple of my associates in other parts of the country yesterday and it is the same story, except for Mosul who hasn’t been out in the last 2 weeks.

6. Called a friend (fellow investor) in Kuwait City and ¾ of the Money Exchangers are not offering IQD, where usually they “ALL” are (many “Sorry Sir, but haven’t gotten our shipment in.”).

7. Numerous pronouncements from the GoI about the Economy.

8. CBI is enjoying Movie Star status.

9. FIL ready to go before Parliament in the next week.

10. Hydrocarbon Investment Law in the works, the big Oil Companies are already beating on the doors, and going ahead before passage.

11. Sharing of existing hydrocarbon money agreed to by various groups / sectors / regional governments.

12. IMF SBA response from CBI.

13. The Kurds got ahead of the rest of the country on foreign investment laws, which I think has scared the rest of them into action.

14. 50-70% inflation. CBI has already raised the interest rate by 4%, and not much else they can do with that side of inflation control. Pretty much only 3 options left I believe: 1. RV. 3. Go IFX. 3. Do both 1 & 2.

15. The economy as the main sword against the insurgency.

These are the indicators that I am looking at. Of course Rob N., Steve, and several others will look at this all in a totally different light, and declare the end of the world. (Just Kidding). But these are “MY Opinions” of why I think that they will either RV, or put it on the International Market very soon.

And of course the standard disclaimer: The author takes “NO” responsibility, if you are stupid enough to use any of the above information and opinions, to go out and buy more Dinars!!!! Opinions are like A**holes, and everyone’s got one!!!!!!

Nelly B,

Roger is clueless, as he stated, but we keep him around for someone to kick. Problem is he enjoys it way too much!!!!!!!

Isn’t this ride from hell fun?????????

Lance (Still wearing my hair shirt)

-- September 2, 2006 1:10 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,

Thanks, you have given us more indications. Yes it's brewing. It's just not another month of no news, now they are picking up.

Get another mil if you can.

What a ride, it's exciting times now.

RV or Forex...either way , I take it.

Pot roast in the Keys, in the makings.

-- September 2, 2006 2:25 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

All,

Roger wrote:

Re.my Dinars, naaa, honestly we are the small guys in this game. Bigger banks and finance institutions are way, way ahead. I can just imagine how many of those Dinar bills US gov have. The sums we (small private investors) are holding, in my opinion, is in the peanut range in comparison.

My reply and ponderings to Rogers random and sometimes insightful thoughts:

Yea, we are the small guys. Out of the 30 some trillion dinars in existence, we (the investors probably hold way less then 1% worldwide and that is at the top end of my guess. Most is held by the GoI / CBI. With a total of only 23 some Trillion out on the streets / issued (according to the SBA), and the rest in the vaults.

Will our cashing in effect the GoI? Probably not as their reserves are sufficient or above what is called for by the World Bank. Our small percentage is negligible, and I am sure has been figured into any RV/Float equation. The Big Banks are a different story, but the question comes to mind is; Are they all going to run to the FX or U.S. Federal Reserve and cash in for Dollars like we are? Nope, it doesn’t make sense for them to do that. I believe that the will make their money/profit by using it for international trade (not the FX), but if a dinar is now equal to a dollar (just a comparison), why trade it in for a dollar (which is weak) when you have the dinar which should continue to grow and appreciate. This is one case where Apples (dinar) and Oranges (dollars) are the same because they the same value.

I agree that the USGov probably has a large amount (several Trillion?) dinars in the bank. But that doesn’t matter either. The USG will not place a call on the CIB to exchange all the dinars for dollars. They will instead hold them over the long term, or use them sparingly so as not to collapse or affect the Iraqi economy. This holds true for all the other countries that are holding. The WB will also help support and defend the Dinar in the same manner, ensuring that no-one dumps.

I believe that the only people that will affect the CBI by cashing in their Dinars for Dollars is us!!!!! With all the big holders being either Governments (foreign to Iraq) or Banks, I don’t think that they will be willing too, or want to sell off/trade in their dinars for dollars or what ever they call their curency. I think they are truly the long term investors. As in the example above; If a dinar is now worth a dollar, the question is why would I want to trade one currency for another when they are worth the same. I would hold on and use it for international trade (i.e. oil, etc..), and only if the price of something I was buying was in dinars, instead of the expense of trading it in just to change what country this “dollars worth” is from. If I am a bank, that say bought 1 Billion IQD at $0.0068 and it is now worth $1.00 then I have made my investors very, very happy as my electronic bottom line just jumped several thousand percent, and the dinar is still worth a dollar without me ever having to convert it “physically” into dollars. In-other-words at that point a Dinar is a Dollar is a Dinar. The worth is the same no matter where I am at or what the actual physical bill I am holding is. The purchasing power is the same. If I exchange it then I loose the percentage that it cost me to exchange it. Whereas if I buy something that has a dinar price (oil, NG, or to pay Iraqi workers to build a Refinery) on it, I don’t loose that exchange percentage, and have seen full value out of my dinar. (Yes I know that all oil trades are done in dollars, and was just using this as an example, but in the long run the oil in the ground is very much the Bank and future of Iraq).

Likewise the common Iraqi or even the GoI (whose dinars in the wallet, purse, or vault are now also worth a dollar) are using dinars for every day transactions, aren’t going to be selling / exchanging their dinars for dollars, euros, or anything else as the price of bread, or Starbuck Latte in downtown Baghdad is marked in dinar and not dollars. The Iraqi’s except for a very small percentage will not exchange their money (unless they want to by a Chalet in Switzerland), but will continue to use the dinar as their everyday money of choice, especially as it is now worth a dollar in purchasing power.

Look at it from a different point of view: If everyone (other Governments, Banks, individuals) holding U.S. Dollars or having a debt against the U.S. Government decided to force a call on the government / dollar, then Mexico would be setting up fences on their side of the border to keep us out. We would be headed south to pick lettuce. So as long as the GoI can support what ever they say is the value of the Dinar, a revaluation and thus new value will be accepted by the international markets. “If” they do revalue, they will know to the thousands of a penny just how much the market can bear. I also do not think that the U.S. Government, (and really run by us) IMF and WB will let a call or any other kind of run happen to the dinar or the Iraqi economy. So if and when they RV, it will be supported, and this will be just a part of the equation that goes into a final value.

As the IQD is a fixed currency (currently), the GoI/CBI have the ability to revalue their currency at anytime before it hits the FX and becomes an internationally traded commodity. Once, and after they either PEG it to another currency or market basket of commodities / currencies, or let it float on the FX then they the GoI / CBI will have very little control over the value of their currency, as market economics will take over. This is when they really have to show economic progress by getting the oil and NG out of the ground and to the market place, increasing their agricultural exports, and create an industrial base with which to improve and grow the value of Iraq. Let’s not forget that the Big Oil Companies are beating on the doors, not to mention all the other companies (non-oil) that see a golden opportunity. But before all this happens I believe that they are going to have to revalue (RV) to set a standard / set point / value that is close to what they actually think, or know the current market will bear. We all believe that it is undervalued, and so do many others. It is that set-point / value that we are all waiting on. Now if they would just get off their ass and do it!!!!!!!!!!!

Same usual disclaimer applies.

Lance (Does anyone know whether I should clean my hair shirt of just comb it? After 2 years it’s starting to move on its own)

-- September 2, 2006 4:37 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Roger,

Believe it or not I can't buy any more Dinar. It's almost impossible to get on the Camps. And when I'm out, I can't exactly stop the convoy and run into the local Money Exchanger. The whole On-Line thing doesn't work for me either as they don't exactly deliver Fed-Ex over here either. Also, as I had to declare what I already had before taking this current position, Uncle Sam might have a real dim view of it if I popped up with more, especially as I had to deal in it on their behalf. That is a problem that I don't need!!! I think that you and I are about even on the amount of dinar we hold anyway. Not to mention that I bought it at rock bottom prices in Kuwait way back when, and have already made money on it. I paid about $520.00 per million for about half of what I hold, and $680.00 for the other half. So I am one of the few people that has already made a profit off this ride. Of course the amount of current profit would not fill the tank on my new Escalade if it does RV.

-- September 2, 2006 5:11 AM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

http://www.iraqdirectory.com/DisplayNews.aspx?id=1990

The Central Bank will actively operate on Real-time gross settlement (rtgs) system
The Central Bank will actively operate on Real-time gross settlement (rtgs) system
02/09/2006
Source: Al-Zawraa

The Iraqi Central Bank announced the actual operation of the system timely adjustments (rtgs) during an extensive meeting held with officials of the World Bank, Al-Rafidain, Al-Rashid and the managers of three commercial private banks.

A source at the Central Bank of Iraq in said that the results of this preliminary work rules were satisfactory and fulfilling ambition. It is hoped in the near future from Ministry of Finance to participate in this system with the gradual entry of other banks operating in Iraq and as the system will be a better opportunity for the Iraqi banking system and also all users of its services; including the speed transfers and banking-related communications within Iraq.

And regarding the way to operate the (rtgs), the source pointed out that the Central Bank of Iraq established a new department for this purpose that will be a branch of the Directorate General of accounts in the bank. While the technical aspects of the system will be assigned to the computer department.

The source added that there is coordination with the general company of communications and mail in the Ministry of Communications to facilitate the communication network between the banks and Central Bank. As for funding this project, the source clarified that it is funded by the World Bank to develop a system of payments to the Iraqi Central Bank in particular, banking transactions in general.

What is the Real-time gross settlement systems?

CPSS Publications No. 22
March 1997
The work of the Committee on Payment and Settlement Systems of the central banks of the Group of Ten countries (CPSS) has consistently emphasised the importance of large-value funds transfer systems which banks use to settle interbank transfers for their own account as well as for their customers. Estimates compiled by the CPSS indicate that these systems transfer several trillion dollars per day in the G-10 countries, a large portion of which is related to the settlement of financial market transactions.

During the past decade a number of countries, inside as well as outside the Group of Ten, have introduced real-time gross settlement (RTGS) systems for large-value funds transfers. Nearly all G-10 countries plan to have RTGS systems in operation in the course of 1997 and many other countries are also considering introducing such systems.

RTGS systems effect final settlement of interbank funds transfers on a continuous, transaction- by-transaction basis throughout the processing day. Because of the growing importance of RTGS, the CPSS set up a Study Group to identify and analyse the major issues related to the operation of such systems. The Group, which was chaired by Mr. Yvon Lucas of the Bank of France, has produced the present analytical report. The report is intended to provide information on the important features of RTGS systems to a broad audience, including operators of and participants in clearing and settlement systems for securities, derivatives and foreign exchange that make or intend to make use of RTGS systems, and the various supervisory authorities and industry groups interested in the enhancement of risk controls in payment and settlement systems. The report might also be particularly helpful to the many countries currently in the process of introducing or developing RTGS systems.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I'm glad to see were talking about dinars again. I've been away for awhile.

-- September 2, 2006 6:47 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Taylor.....

That's good news about the RTGS system....Huge step for the CBI.
Just in time for the RV!!

-- September 2, 2006 7:48 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Lance:

I appreciate your perspective and can see why you would believe an RV is looming.

Yet, your senario does not consider the continued violence. Yes, I listen to the MSM. Regardless of their liberal bent, the violence is real.

Big Oil and other investors will not invest in a country with that type of secterian divisions. If the Iraqi and U.S. Governments can secure the nation, then I can see your reasonings for an RV.

As I have said before, I do not mind being wrong. If I am, please chide me in the keys.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- September 3, 2006 12:22 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,

Thankyou again for a very thorough aricle. My only problem with you, is to comment about it, I'm trying to find an angle you haven't covered yet, but when it comes to you, I can only read the article and say....yep.

Very very interesting regarding the complete dry up of Dinars. Had some reports on this site, that some denominations are gone here as well.

Yes everything is in place, I think it's a matter of very little time now.

Ok, found an issue I can comment about. Your "Hairy Shirt", dont touch it. Steve have told us we have not cured any desease since Polio, with the green fluffy cultures your'e cultivating in that thing, just let it be. It might end up as a windfall in the Biotech industry, killing other organism that has not even mutaged yet. If it moves by itself, just let it have a walk, it will just take a leak or so, but the Hairy Shirt knows where the Master is. If you start to have a conversation with it, then its time to go home Lance. However, if it answers and you can have an intelligent conversation with it. Kill it. It WILL figure out a way to enslave mankind.

Taylor,

Thanks, good stuff, theyr'e setting up system to be able to move currency, everytime that happens, currency get unstuck. Unstuck currency = business.

Rob N,

May I.

I had a chrystal clear point to tell you, still have it, but it's so darn hard to get to the point, let me at least have a try, this might not come out the way I want it, but I hope I'll get there.

Lets say there are different conditions in life, some are higher some are lower. It's a plateau that any and all can accept that he belongs to.

It would be easy to see that a criminalgang would be in a zone where blood floats, and kicking someone just for the fun of it would bring about a belly laugh in his crowd.

In elementary school I'm sure you saw some schoolyard fights. Remeber those years, we were all less then ten years of age. Two boys got in a fight,and the rest of the students created a ring around it to watch, hurray, comment or just rubberneck.

The students young in age, no experience with life, with no authority, was standing around completely mezmerised, and the drama "just played out" in front of them. It's a kind of hypnotized stage when your own paricipation in any of the outcome would be completely unthinkable. A watcher, looker, commenter, completely effect of the situation.

Did you remember the exact split second how your hypnotized mezmerisation dissapeared in the moment you were aware that the School Principal was walking in fast step straight, to the center of the chaos.

Another condition of existence was brought upon you, something with autority, knowledge, ethical precense and almost an unobtainable level of confidence and reason. Just his presence was enough. No one was commenting anylonger, no one was hurraying or screaming. Everybody was completely silent, and the Principal words was soaked up in full by everyone. The fighting boys, a second ago, cocky and full of it, was now completely two different beings, full of regret, shame, and the cockiness was completely gone, both could not hold their cry, in front of the crowd.

Sanity, reason logic and survival for the greatest number WILL take over control, influence and change existence in place of insanity anger and hate.

It takes a willingness to CONFRONT the evil, the hate, the insanity.

When establishing a non survival existence, or condition as a fact of life, you have immediately moved yourself from being cause over it, and become the spectator on the schoolyard, completely mezmerised by it, commenting about it, hurraying, rubbernecking, ahhhing, and a lot of things, but you are the effect of the actions of the two schoolboys.

All the students was the effect of it, no one did anything, but comment.

The Principal, he was not effect of it, he changed the whole crowd of students condition of living, by being cause, not effect.

By saying, well we have sectarian killings, we have carbombs, we have shootings, kidnappings......whatever..and because we have that , we CAN"T do this or that or anything, that is the effect viewpoint.

Things are done because someone steps in in the crowd and CHANGE things.

There is a reason, a logic, a higher justice, and a better way of life, that wants to CHANGE the killings, bombers and the thugs.

By changing the whole Iraq to a better place, less and less power will the bad guy have.

The De Facto that the bad guy are there, can not change the fact that the rest WILL change for the better.

Eventually we'll get to the last of those guys, but in the meanwhile the expansion, buildup, development and restauration of Iraq will not stand still because there are two guys fighting on the schoolyard.

If Joe Blow is building a house, hammering and banging, setting up the timber, drywalls, plumbing, and all that, the fact that his 4 year old son have a fight with his 5 year old son, is irrelevant.

-- September 3, 2006 3:16 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Rob N.

Concider yourself chided. I have worked for 1 of the major Oil Companies before and one of the support companies also. They know exactly to the penney how much it is going to cost them for each life lost, and how many to expect. This is all built into their bottom line. Take a good look at the places they are operating currently and you will find that the situations in many of these countries are much worse then here. If you look at places where they are operating like the Congo, and some of the other African countries the situations are horrendous with kidnapings, government take-overs, killings, strikes, etc.. but are not reported in the MSM as front page news, but the Big Oil Companies are still operating and exploring there. Iraq also has the advantage of Uncle Sam and the U.S. Military backing them up. We the U.S. are not going to let this slide into a true Religious Civil War. So it is very true that the Big Oil Companies are beating on the doors over here, and any loss of life will be "Sadly regretted" but not for one second will it delay or stop their operations. There is just too much money to be made, and they all have investors.

How quickly everyone has forgotten what happened in the former Yugoslavia. Now Kosovo, Serbia, and a couple of others. Ethnic cleansing, religious cleansing, and a true Civil and Religious War. Now those who were mostly responsible are in jails in the Hague, or just plain dead. These countries are now tourist sites with growing economies and most are part of the EU. It took a while for this to happen, and granted it had more support from the European's because it was in their own back yard, but it did happen. I believe the only difference here is that Iraq will remain one country and not split. Instead of the EU we have the GCC and the U.S. to make sure that they stay on track.

One more thing. They are already here. I have personnaly seen their trucks, equipment, and personnel running around doing survey work, and bringing in equipment every day. These are not the Coalition supported Companies but the privates, and they are here for three things, Oil, Natural Gas, and Money. FYI the industry standard where a barrel of oil is making a profit for the company is about $30.00. For every day they pump a million barrels, of crude, someone is making plus 40 Million Dollars a day, as the cost per barrel is about $70.00. Not a bad paycheck in anybodies book.

Lance

-- September 3, 2006 3:42 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Rob N. & All,

Every one has got to realize that unless the Economy improves over here the little gangsters like Sadr will make life miserable. So as much as I dislike our past President and his advisors, they must get credit for the following:

“It’s the economy, stupid.” Made famous by political strategist James Carville, who hung it on a sign in Bill Clinton's Little Rock campaign office to keep everybody "on message" in the 1992 election.

This is what the GoI has finally realized. So no matter how many bombings, bullets, executions, etc... this is the message. One (the violence) is not going to get a whole lot better until two (the Economy) is fixed, or on track. Just doing away with the violence will not work, you have to have something for them to turn to (jobs, education, a better life) before they will hang up their AK's.

Lance

Lance

-- September 3, 2006 4:26 AM ∞

---

DB wrote:

Lance

Perfect Point

-- September 3, 2006 11:33 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I accepted, awhile back, that the RV would be quite good for my bank account and provide many options for my future.

I've been an expat a big portion of my life and decided to keep myself and my money offshore after the RV.

I've explored many areas of the world in one way or another but my favorite source of information is the "escape artist" site.

Try it...you might like it as well!

http://www.escapeartist.com/efam/83/efam83.html

-- September 3, 2006 1:45 PM ∞

---

Paul wrote:

Hi everyone,

I just made my final purchase of Dinar. I now have ten million in 25,000 denominations.
Good luck to all,
Paul

-- September 3, 2006 10:07 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Paul....Smart move! Just in time to pass "go" and collect....

-- September 3, 2006 11:30 PM ∞

---

C1Jim wrote:

A while back someone said the IRS has set up a task force for exchanging Iraqi Dinar.
Any more info on that?

-- September 4, 2006 12:06 AM ∞

---

C1Jim wrote:

Has anyone actually been able to buy Dinar from Chase Bank?

-- September 4, 2006 12:19 AM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

In the beginning I was worried that if all this went well and I made millions I might lose my friends and be alienated by my family. So I went out on a limb and taught them all about the possibilities of the Iraqi dinar. The vast majority of them all purchased vast sums of Dinars. They showed their friends and families the same. I figure, lets all become wealthy together. Lets hope my plan works.

Paul, tonight I finally just purchased my 10 millionth dinar as well. I feel satisified with my investment. I wish you luck. At a 1:1 RV to the USD you'll be living on 1 million a year if you invest it back at 10%... not bad at all :)

Good luck on Tuesday. Hopefully this day will not come to pass without a change in one way or another.

-- September 4, 2006 12:34 AM ∞

---

Haoden wrote:

Just call to www.Dinar-Sale.com owners & got a great price for a million Iraqi Dinar

-- September 4, 2006 1:20 AM ∞

---

Haoden wrote:

Just call to www.Dinar-Sale.com owners & got a great price for a million Iraqi Dinar

-- September 4, 2006 1:21 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Seems like an RV is likely to come at anytime. It might be Tuesday or next month, the exact date is always in the blue, but it's not too long in coming.

Then it will be a suprise if they peg it, let it loose on trading, peg it at 1 cent or 1 Dollar, peg it for a while and then let it loose, never let it loose, but peg it higher and higher.

After long and hard study, with all the indicators there I have concluded that the Iraqis will cancel the Dinars and start trading in Aluminun potlids, that can be excanged in smaller denominations in bottle caps.

-"I like that VCR, but can you do a deal here, I think the price , two potlids and nineteen bottle caps is a bit steep. I only make fifteen clams a month."

-"Hmmmm, you are driving a hard bargin, but ok, you can have the VCR for two potlids and sixteen bottlecaps, but only if the potlids are mirrorpolished. Deal?"

-"Ok, it's a deal, can you give change back on a hubcap?"

-- September 4, 2006 3:22 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Taylor,

At 10 mil invested with a 10% return, that will give a mil per year, is a scenario before the taxman.

Paul,

Well done, get them while you can.

Okie,

I read a few things from that post, very interesting, however if the train comes, the less reason for escaping. However, there was a lot of really nice places you can live like a king for very very little it seems.

If you get all the money you ever dreamed of with the Dinars, you can live like a king here as well.

I've been in over 25 countries all over the world (Like to see more though) but few things compare with the good ol USA.

Haoden,

I never seen your handle before, never heard any points regarding the Dinar, never had one single exchange of ideas with you. You are making a statement that there is a Dinar dealer that is great, and asking us to get in contact with him.

Haoden,

Be smart now,.... who do I think you are?

C1Jim,

That info came from Taxmama, perhaps there is a truth in it, because the Dinar Dealers are registered, and your name and address are with them.

Regarding Chase, dont know, have not used them, usually the set up is that you have to start a checking account with them before they let you buy Dinars. It's in fact pretty hard to set up a checking account over the phone, you have to go there in person, ID yourself, and the whole jadi jada, so at least for my part, it's a bit too cumbersome of a procedure.

I dont think it's a bad idea if you have a bank terminal close by though, and can run over there on your lunch hour. However I think if you want Dinars now, you have to do some quick maneuvers. I would go with companies that will ship the Dinars the same day.

If you buy from a dealer that will deliver "next week", you are with the companies that WILL deliver in FIVE weeks.

They are cheaper, but you run the risk that the Dinar will RV in the meanwhile they are getting it (seems to be hard even to get it nowdays). In the terms, they have a clause saying that if the Dinar RV in the meanwhile, they will refund your money.

What you will do here is basically make the dealer very very very very rich, using YOUR money.

You pay him.

He uses your money, and are buying Dinars.

The Dinar RV.

The dealer keep the Dinars he bought with YOUR money, and return your check.

In the meanwhile he is doing this he is also binding up your money. Those money could have bought you the Dinars, but it was working for someone else instead.

So after it was all said and done, he made a fortune of it, you must still call every day for three weeks, ( as usually with those dealers) before you get the check back....without interest.

The last dealer I used was one of the cheaper, slow ones, and it gave me quite an attention, knowing that it took sooooooo long time for the dealer to come up with my Dinars, nevously watching if it would RV in the meanwhile, knowing the Dinars would not come, but a return check instead.

My advice, that was a month ago I bought it, and NOW, I'm following the packet on a FedEx tracking system.

Don't go that way now. It's too late.

Far too risky to go with the slow ones at this time.

Either go with a somewhat more expensive company that will SHIP it same day, companies that are sitting on the currency, and will do a direct, same day shipment.

Alternatively, a Dinar purchase might be done with a bank, and even though they can take some weeks before they deliver the Dinars to you, you might be able to do a contract with the bank that the deal was done on the purchase day, not the delivery day, and even though the Dinar would RV in the meanwhile, you would have a bank guarantee that you will get the Dinars. Now, I have not gone that route,and have never heard of anyone doing it, even though the banks that are buying and selling Dinars have been posted on this site.

All I have heard is people asking about it, but no one have ever testified , that I know of, about a Dinar purchase from a US bank.

Anyone with an experience in it, please give an up on that.

-- September 4, 2006 4:12 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

All,

3 articles below, the one I like best is the first one and you shoud know why. though they are all good news for us.

Also e-mailed Kevin@TB to get us a new page. Hope he is listening.

Iraqi inflation hits 70%
04 September 2006 (AME Info FZ LLC)
Iraq's rate of inflation between July 2005 and July 2006 reached 69.6% according to agency reports. Ali Baban, the country's Planning Minister, said that inflation was now out of control and prices of goods used to measure inflation, such as food, fuel, clothing and property had all risen.

Iraq up to 3m bpd
03 September 2006 (AME Info FZ LLC)
raq's Oil Minister Hussain al-Shahristani has said that the country plans to increase its oil production to 3m bpd, from 2.5m bpd currently, by the end of the year, reported TradeArabia citing Al Arabiya. He confirmed that production should rise by 500,000 bpd every year, with 3.5m bpd produced by the end of 2007 and 4m bpd in 2008. Shahristani added that Iraq is targeting 8m bpd within a decade.

Official reports fast job, business growth in Iraq
03 September 2006 (PortAl Iraq)
On Aug. 31, James Crum of the Iraq Project and Contracting Office released a statement on progress being made in Iraq's reconstruction.
Throughout the past three years, "solid progress" has been made to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure, according to Crum.
"All of Iraq's industrial sectors - oil, water, electrical power, education, agriculture, buildings and facilities, and security - have benefited from the United States' investment in their economic revitalization and reconstruction."
Iraqi Oil
Substantial investments have been made in the entire oil infrastructure system to help provide long-term stability, such as improvements to oil wells, pipelines and oil-refinement facilities.
Iraqi Water and Sewage
Since April 2003, completed U.S. projects have increased potable water availability in Iraq to an estimated 4.2 million additional residents; an estimated 5.1 million additional people have access to sewage treatment.
Iraqi Electricity
U.S. projects have added or restored an estimated 2,700 Megawatts of electrical generation capacity to Iraq's electrical grid. Peak electricity generation in Iraq is currently around 4,900 megawatts compared to an average of 4,300 in 2002.
"Power is more equitably distributed today, and on average Iraqis outside of Baghdad receive more hours of power than before the war," Crum said.
"The residents around the country are receiving 12 to 14 hours of electricity, and those in and around Baghdad are receiving up to eight hours of electrical power during the summer's high demand period."
Iraqi Business and Employment
"One of the key elements that enables Iraq to stand on its own is a strong and growing workforce,"
Since 2003, there have been 30,000 new businesses created in Iraq - many of these are small businesses and micro-enterprises, according to Crum.
The agricultural sector shows the fastest job growth, "particularly date palms and wheat, which have become Iraq's largest export crops."
Completed Iraqi Projects
"The numbers of completed projects throughout Iraq - including large and complex oil, water, and electrical plants - has been truly staggering," Crum stated.
"More than 3,500 projects have been started; more than 2,800 of these have been completed and the remainder under construction."

-- September 4, 2006 7:09 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Roger,

It is not Pot Lids!!!! It is Camel Spiders and Scorpions. Makes opening you wallet or purse interesting.

Almost forgot. Been talking to the U.S. Park Service. They are interested in declaring my Hair Shirt as a new National Park. Lots of green and wildlife. I have talked it over with the Hair Shirt and we both agree that this is a go.

Lance

-- September 4, 2006 7:35 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

CBI auction $75,905,000.00, got to be a new record, almost 50% higher. Now why would someone be buying all those dinars?

Let the fun begin!!!!!!!!

-- September 4, 2006 8:55 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

[Roger....]
I agree...when the Dinar hits I can live like a King anywhere I want But it will be much better on a beach in Bali than on a lake in Oklahoma....I'll probably do both since my stack of potlids can handle it.....

[Lance.....]
The good news just keeps flowing. I believe it will be good news all the way to our mid term elections and beyond.

-- September 4, 2006 9:38 AM ∞

---

Randy wrote:

Hello all,

Regarding purchasing Dinar at Chase, a friend went into a Chase branch in Columbus, Ohio and was able to order Dinar on Thursday.

I do not have any more details than that. I do not think she had an account with Chase prior to her visit to order Dinar. And don't know if she was asked to open one.

-- September 4, 2006 10:21 AM ∞

---

DayDream wrote:

Lance, I read your above post concerning the 30 trillion dinar in circulation and thought it made so much sense. Would you mind if I re-posted it elsewhere on a forum 'prone to arguing'? Sure you know which one I'm speaking of LOL. I tried PMing you over there but you don't accept PM's. I think your perception on this needs to be heard. Unless you'd care to do it??? Thanks, DayDream

-- September 4, 2006 10:28 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

WE HAVE AN ACCUTE INBREED IN POSTERS AT THE MOMENT.

C'MON GAWKERS, I KNOW THERE ARE HUNDREDS PERHAPS THOUSANDS LOOKING OVER THE T&B DINAR BLOG.

GET IN ON THE PLAYGROUND.

WE'RE A CLEAN SET OF PEOPLE HERE, LANCE HAVE JUST COMBED HIS HAIRY SHIRT AND I TOOK A SHOWER....UH, (WHEN WAS LAST FULL MOON?).

STEP RIGHT UP GOOD FOLKS, WE WILL VERBALY ABUSE YOU ONLY IF YOU INSIST ON SINGING "HOUSE OF THE RISING SUN" OR "STAIRWAY TO HEAVEN".

OKIE WILL PERFORM THREE SALTOMORTALES ON SOLID GROUND.

SARA WILL PERFORM UNTOLD AND UNPRECEDENTED NEWSCLIPS BALANCE ACTS FROM IRAQ AND HOLY PLACES. ON OCCASION SHE WILL FALL. WATCH HER SILENT INTERNAL SOUL STRUGGLE. NOT A WHISPER WILL COME THROUGH WHEN SHE STRUGGLES. ONLY THE STRONG CAN WATCH THIS PERFORMANCE.

CARL WILL TELL HORRIBLE STORIES FROM HIS POLICE PAST, AND WE CAN GUARANTEE YOU ALL THAT THERE WILL BE SUCH A TERRIFYING EXPERIENCE THAT WE WILL ASK PEOPLE WITH HEART PROBLEM AND WOMEN TO BRING THEIR ELIXIRES.

NELLY B WILL RIDE TWO BRITTISH HORSES AT ONE TIME, STANDING POSITION, DRINKING ALE, AND TAKING A HORRENDOUS HIGH JUMP, WITHOUT PASSING GAS.

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THERE IS ENJOYMENT AND EXCITEMENT FOR ALL, YOUNG AND OLD.

STEP RIGHT UP TO THE DINAR TENT, EXOTIC TELLS WILL BE TOLD AND DREAMS OF WEALT AND PROSPERITY WILL DASH AROUND IN THE TENT, USING NO SAFETY MEASURES. A STUNT ONLY PERFORMED WITH US, WHERE CONSERVATISM IS EXCHANGED WITH ENTHUSIASM, AND NO FEAR IS KNOWN.

THAT'S RIGHT FOLKS, STEP RIGHT UP TO THE LITTLE WINDOW BELOW, AND DEPOSIT YOUR THOUGHTS, CLICK ON "POST", AND YOU WILL BEGIN A JURNEY OF YOUR LIFE.

-- September 4, 2006 3:08 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Ok, ok.........

Just got back from a road trip to OKC, and I've gotta say things are jumping....

That having been said, I will immediately hit Chase up for a few mil (before the wife catches me.....)

Lance wrote:

"These are the indicators that I am looking at. Of course Rob N., Steve, and several others will look at this all in a totally different light, and declare the end of the world. (Just Kidding). But these are “MY Opinions” of why I think that they will either RV, or put it on the International Market very soon."

##########################################################################

Now, I trust that firsthand experience is the best kind and this is precisely what Lance has. I'm not looking at this in a different light, but I won't be signing a new mortgage on Star Island based on recent events either.......

I think RV is coming soon, my take: .005 to .05. Thats already a lot of happy meals..................

-- September 4, 2006 4:13 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

I was just thinking:

Tomorrow is my Birthday.

Never thought I would be asking for something called a Revalue for my birthday.

My wife asked me what that was. I said : "You see, it all started with these guys named Roger and Lance........."

-- September 4, 2006 4:23 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,
Happy birthday, hope you will get a reval. Get the millions whie you can.

Lance,

Right, its a lot of Dinars on auction today.

I dont have a clue how to make a head or a tail of it though. If the CBI want to RV, why would they be happy to sell their currency, unless some complete idiot, in the lower moron class have been influential enough to make someone believe that they need to de-evaluate the currency. Then I could see why the Bank want to get rid of the Dinars, and get Dollars instead.

It might however, and thats more likely, be an effort to bolster their own reserves before a big announcement, revaluation or other activity, like a free traded currency.

If they would only revalue the currency, I would hold on to it, but if I would let it go on the market, then it would be very beneficial to have as much of it out there to start up with, having a lot of reserves, in the vaults, to show that "we are ritch. When the trading starts, the market have a lot of the currency, and a lower value because of it, thus the direction of the Dinar will have a higher chance to go up, when the trading begins.

It might as well just be a fluke also.

Or, a promise to hold for some budies in some banks, before the revaluation comes.

What it means I dont know, but the fact that it's there, and it is happening, is an indicaiton of something happening and something moving.

-- September 4, 2006 6:16 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Roger Wrote: NELLY B WILL RIDE TWO BRITTISH HORSES AT ONE TIME, STANDING POSITION, DRINKING ALE, AND TAKING A HORRENDOUS HIGH JUMP, WITHOUT PASSING GAS.
===================================================================================================

...So nearly right Roger. It was one shetland pony; My feet were touching the ground on both sides; it was half a shandy; the jump was more of a bump and I fart like a 300Lb German woman with a cabbage fettish.

Stand well clear when you see the short legged equine critter charging in your direction... Oh and extingish all sources of ignition.

You guys really think the RV is due? I need more cash to buy dinars, but I'm not sure whether to sell my collection of Ferraris or one of my estates in Suffolk. Any suggestions?

-- September 4, 2006 6:22 PM ∞

---

Nelly B - Investor wrote:

Oh, P.s. Kevin does listen... Just took him a couple of days last time, to sort out the templates.

I wonder what inspired him to set up this site in the first place.

I sure am grateful to him for it.

-- September 4, 2006 6:25 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I've been to three county fairs, two goat ropins', been in the pyramids, traveled by boat up the river Nile, still putting stamps in my sixth passport and been eyeball to eyeball with every sort of human critter this earth has to offer....and yet, I've never seen anything like than the current situation with the Dinar. I've been on this train for over two years and I believe we're close enough to smell a big payday.....

COM'ON DINAR........

-- September 4, 2006 7:06 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Steve,

When doing that bank deal with Chase, let us know what the deal is buying through a bank.

Okie,

Yep, Dinars on a dry run in Iraq, ...any time now.

Nelly B,

When you hear the news that you are in the dough, can you please see to that you cross the legs first.

DAAAAD, are we there yet??????

-- September 4, 2006 9:23 PM ∞

---

Paul wrote:

Hi all,

Thanks for the kind reception. With a 1:1 RV, I do not think that I will end up with $10 million. First the currency exchange will want a cut. Then there are capital gains taxes. And the worst of all... My wife will want half with out question. I'll be lucky if I end up with $3 million. Oh oh, I just realized that I better buy more Dinars.

-- September 4, 2006 11:02 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

Lance/Roger:

Consider me chided. Concerning the Iraqi Dinar, I am not opposed to viewing events like the capture of the number 2 Al-Qeda operative as positive. I also agree the presence of big oil in Iraq is a good sign. Finally, a CBI auction where the number of dinars sold has increased is also a positive. I am for all the positives the Central Bank, the Central Government, the IMF, the World Bank, and our own U.S. Government can muster.

Where I disagree (and I hope I am wrong)is the country's lack of an economy, infastructure, and a unified people. An RV without a measurable GNP and GDP is simply moot. For Iraq to have a measurable GDP there must be oil. Without oil there is not a basis for an economy.

Everyone is familar with my perspective. I concede I am not in Iraq as you are Lance. In contrast, I am an arm chair observer. Of course, I hope both you and Roger are correct. I will gladly eat my share of the pig at the roast to show my humble contrition to your perspective.

In the words of Okie: "C'mon Dinar."

Thanks,

Rob N.

P.S. just ordered two more million bringing my grand total to 6 million. I hope I can get to 10 before the RV.

-- September 5, 2006 12:34 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Steve,

Happy birthday and hope that you have something more then just getting older to celebrate.

DayDream,

Happy posting, just make me Anonymous. There are other posters called Lance out there and they don’t need the credit, and I don’t want my name on the other sites.

Roger,

You are rude, crude, and socially unacceptable. That’s why I like you, or at least my Hair Shirt does. Ok, no “House of the Rising Sun” or “Stairway to Heaven”, but how about “Aquarius”, with “When the moon is in the Seventh House, and Jupiter aligns with Mars, then Revaluation will guide the Iraqi Government, and love of my money in the bank will steer the stars. This is the dawning of the Age of the Dinar, Age of the Dinar…..”

You know, if you can remember that song, that you have been around too long, as it talks about all these “Signs” for the coming of the Age of Aquarius. Well I see the “Signs for the coming of the Age of Dinar”. 3 years has been long enough for them to get their act together. Besides usually wearing my Hair Shirt (not currently on, as it is on the phone with Oprah looking to get interviewed) I am wearing my Tie-Dye pants, Nehru Jacket, sandals, my love beads are on with the Peace Symbol Pendant, and I pinched the filter off my cigarette and rolled the ends, to bring back old memories. So I am ready for the reval. This whole thing is now Tea Leaf reading, and I keep coming up with something is about to happen, and soon. But that is just my opinion. What the hell it is I have “NO” idea. FX, RV, PEG, nothing, will someone just make up their mind!!!!!!

Also, as far as the auction yesterday, I think the word is out in the Financial/FX Markets, and they are jumping through hoops as fast as they can, before they get left behind. They haven’t done anything before because there were not enough financial indicators or information to make judgments, and now there are. Banks of any sort are not going to buy a “worthless” currency. Now with all the information out there, they have taken a good hard look and said “WOW” we better get our act together before we miss the train. I believe that there would be even more sold; except the CIB is limiting, and the number of banks that can buy at the auction is limited. So I expect that the end user Banks are probably paying a premium too the authorized banks at the auction, just to get what they can. This is the only way they can get it, as it is not on the open FX market.

For those of you who missed the ‘60’s, “Aquarius” is from the musical “Hair” and was a big hit for the 5th Dimension. That was a musical group and not a Stephen Hawking theory.

Got to go, Oprah said “NO” and the shirt is now pissed and wants Geraldo’s number. Anybody got the number to FOX? God help me if Jerry Springer is next!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe BaBa WaWa!!!!!!

Lance (maybe I can get a job as an agent)

-- September 5, 2006 1:41 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,

Jerry Springer would like to have your Hair Shirt and you there, just got the call. The shirt wants to reveal something for you on TV.

Yes, I'm rude and antisocial, but they had tried everything,including the medicin historys first "reverse birth". It dint help,I'm still around. Imagine a woman have gone through a painful childbirth and all she got was me.

Childhood experience of Ravi Shankar, Sitar, smoky rooms with strobes and education in life stating that the White Knight Talking Backwards, interludes with an excuse to kiss the sky, long study of my left hands life lines, and barefoot walking cemented my antisocial skills to such a pefect form, that I actually have great enjoyment practicing them.

Your spaced out on sensation, like you're under sedation, Madness takes it's toll.
With a bit of a mind flip, your into the timeslip, and nothing will ever be the same.

The Dinars seems like a timewarp.......

Ops, old short circuits, messing with me again.

My computer HAL is trying to take control here, -"open the door HAL" ***I'm sorry I can't do that".

Just reboted my compjuter.

Ok where are we in the discussion???

Dinars !!!!

Oh, yes Dinars... they are good.

(If, you not from the sixties, you would'nt have a clue what Lance and me are talking about)

-- September 5, 2006 3:28 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Roger,

You have got to get off the fish and coconuts thing. It's almost as bad as my Hair Shirt without the cuteness or scratching. Loved the "Editorial". Of course the people on the other sites will see you as a PHD/Gospel in Ecomomics and buy more Dinar because of the site it is on. Have you asked the dealers for a cut? I would.

-- September 5, 2006 4:02 AM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

Roger, Carl, Sara, and all others who might be interested:

Roger, Carl, Sara:

I thought something I ran across might interest you three. Remember, how we were wondering why the long gas lines, the inflation, and why is the Iraq Government importing all of the energy products for electricity, gasoline for cars and all???

I ran across Iraq Oil Ministry's report at:
http://www.iraqrevenuewatch.org/reports/052206.pdf. I think you will find it very interesting.

Roger, I specifically thought you would find it interesting as it details how the oil revenues have been stolen by smugglers in the trucking industry.

In one example, trucks are going into Iraq with empty oil rigs (filling them with water or the middle with oil and the other tanks on ends empty) and upon getting into Iraq the driver buys oil at Iraq prices and turns this into warehouse. The driver then goes back to Jordan with Black oil and crosses back into Jordan. The Black oil has been smuggled from Iraq. The Iraq government has taken a double hit with this example. And there are numberous other examples--that I think you would be interested in Roger.

Carl and Sara: You both have been interested in economic and political agendas of insurgents, local criminals and what this means to the country of Iraq and to the dinar.

The Impact: The Iraq Government is having to spend, I believe it said an additional 6 Billion (? I could be wrong about the figure) out of general revenues budget.

The Iraq Government had not counted on spending additional monies for energy purposes; and in fact, the report states that under Saddam, Iraq has sufficient energy infractures that are adequate to sustain the energy needs of the Iraqi people.

--The imports only became a reality due to the amount of stolen supplies according to the report.

One can only use a little imagination to guess the economic impact i.e., Social unrest (increased violence) with lack of electrictiy for a/c; Not enough gasoline for cars (unless you bought through the black market); the possibility of terrorist using the stolen oil for terrorism activities.

On the political side: the centralized government of Baghdad would not appear to be able to govern.

I think--we all probably suspected. However, this post was the first time that the corruption was defined in a post to this forum.

Laura

-- September 5, 2006 5:20 AM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

Oh, in addition, this also affects the IMF for banking and currency values; and also how foreign investments are looking at the political and economic situation in Iraq.

Laura

-- September 5, 2006 5:23 AM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

Oh, and another question I would like to post, how do you think the oil revenues are affecting the situation in Kurkistan with today's news of a Kurkish flag etc. I am aware the the Iraq Constitution has a bearing on how oil revenues are to governed. Who gets what, in their cut of oil revenues (When they can get rid of the corruption) in a democration Iraq???.

Laura

-- September 5, 2006 5:29 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Roger,

Keep short circuiting, and we can bring it all back. The smell of Tear Gas wafting across the college lawns, Make Love Not War, Tricky Dickey, Free Love, Timothy Leary Lives, Frodo Lives, Sit-Ins, Sounds of Silence, Communes, Jane Fonda in a Sniper Scope (wishful or drug induced wishful thinking on my part), Baby Killers, Puff the Magic Dragon, Big Brother, Black Power, Jefferson Airplane, Haight Ashbury, Summer of Love, Bra Burning, Grateful Dead, Mushrooms, Woodstock, LSD, Bell Bottoms, Hippies, Black Panthers, The Doors, Germaine Greer, J. Edgar Hoover, Black Sabbath, The Establishment, I Ching, Berkeley, Krishna, Jefferson Airplane, Mescaline, Transcendentalism, The Doors, Flower Children, Janis, VW Bus, Incense, and of course Mary Jane with 1.5 EZ-Widers…….. AH the good old days. Are we there yet Roger? Are the LSD Flashbacks getting any better? To hell with Dinars, we can Cheech and Chong from here on out……Groovy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But be sure to wear some followers in your hair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Flower Child Lance.

P.S. Actually had a much younger girlfriend once that was conceived at Woodstock. Her mother had no idea who the father was, but mom was still a Dead-Head at 40+. She (the girl friend) was a little strange to say the least as she was raised in a commune. I guess there is some truth to the “Use of Drugs” does strange things to the children.

Laura Parker,

Corruption has be discussed and picked apart on the site. Including the theft of oil. Kurdish flag thing has no impact on oil. This is just politics and one-ups-man-ship. They are set to replace 4 of the ministers because of corruption and just plain stupidity, and when they go many of their hirelings will follow on out the door. As for it being known by the IMF and World Bank it is old news and much has been done. Read the IMF SBA, and you will find that these problems have been addressed or already solved.

I know that there is still massive corruption in many of the GoI operations, but they have really gone after it in the oil and finance sectors.

As far as the oil/gas/fuel situation your info is incorrect. Iraq imported vast quantities of refined products under Saddam. They have never had the the refineries. As for the corruption in transporting and importing fuel, it is not as bad as it was under Saddam when the same thing was happening but was government controlled corruption on top of the existing smugglers etc... Much of the fuel shortages now are a direct reflection of an economy that is growing, thus requiring more refined products.

Laura, me thinketh that you readith the MSM as truth and are hearby deceived by the devil.

-- September 5, 2006 8:30 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Just imagine the CEO of a large American oil company and the Iraq Oil Minister are making a deal on crude oil in the ground. It would take the CEO about 10 nano seconds to slap money on the table and say "lets deal!"

So for all you people out there who don't believe crude oil in the ground is an "asset".....put your ear to the ground and listen.

And the Iraqis sure aren't going to spend around $150 billion on their oil patch using a cheap Dinar....if they did....the CEO would own a huge chunk of Iraq after all the deals were made.

The Iraqis have already indicated they will build three refineries....trouble is they need them like yesterday.

The Rv and passage of the FIL and hydrocarbon law need to be completed soon...as in now!!!

=========================================================================
A summary......

The report charts Iraq's oil and gas reserves potential of 330 Billion barrels of oil and 324 Trillion standard cubic feet of gas. It also shows how an estimated $100-150 Billion worth of investment is required in Iraq's Oil and Gas and Infrastructure sectors to enable some of this potential to be unlocked.

-- September 5, 2006 9:35 AM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Hello all... I wouldn't say that I'm a huge believer in psychics but I was amazed what I read today. On my MSN home page this appeared..

Virgo
August 23 - September 21
Good news from a distant state or foreign country could make your day, dear Virgo. You could well spend the rest of the day basking in the glow of what you've heard. However, this isn't going to affect your relations with others or your work on whatever projects you're involved with right now. This also is a good day to get out in the sunshine. Take a walk or a drive in the country! Enjoy your day.

Dear God... please let this be RV day!

-- September 5, 2006 10:00 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Positive improvement in the Banking system.....

I just had a quick turn-around on a stock purchase order with Warka Bank. They have a new Western educated Manager who has really moved them forward. The response is from one of his employees.

Six months ago they couldn't find their ass with both hands and now they're starting to look like a real "consumer oriented business".

I'm buying mostly Bank and soft drink stocks with a few other hunches on the side.
==========================================================================
Dear Mr. xxxxxx xxxxx,

Please read the attached file concerning your stock purchase details that was executed in the previous ISX trading session. For further ISX stock purchases you are kindly requested to send us a new stock pick list in order for us to execute in the coming ISX trading session.

According to the new system that we are applying, all your accounts will be in the same number ( it means your $ and ID account is the same number ).

Your personal Dollar and Dinar Saving account no. is xxxxxx

Please note that your IQD account balance is: ID xxxxxxxx

For any further inquiries or information please do not hesitate to contact me I’ll be pleased to answer all your requirements providing you with my full assistance and cooperation.

Best regards

xxxxxx x xxxxxxx

ISX Dept

-- September 5, 2006 10:57 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Taylor wrote:

"Hello all... I wouldn't say that I'm a huge believer in psychics but I was amazed what I read today. On my MSN home page this appeared..

Virgo
August 23 - September 21
Good news from a distant state or foreign country could make your day, dear Virgo. You could well spend the rest of the day basking in the glow of what you've heard. However, this isn't going to affect your relations with others or your work on whatever projects you're involved with right now. This also is a good day to get out in the sunshine. Take a walk or a drive in the country! Enjoy your day."

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

I'm with you on that thought Taylor

However, today is my birthday..............

-- September 5, 2006 11:39 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

I am assuming since Iraqi time is at least seven hours ahead of those of us in the CST any talk or suggestion of an RV did not come to fruition today.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- September 5, 2006 12:27 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I believe Warka Bank is in the process of linking up the the CBI network...a lot of things going on right now....

http://www.warka-bank.com/maintenance.html

-- September 5, 2006 1:30 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

From iraqieconomy.org

Iraq sees oil output at 3 mbpd by year-end September 1, 2006 - Iraq's oil minister has said Baghdad plans to raise its oil production to 3.0 million barrels per day (bpd) before the end of 2006.
"Currently Iraq is producing 2.5 million bpd and we plan to reach 3.0 million bpd before the end of the year," Hussain al-Shahristani told Al Arabiya television.
According to a plan that relies on domestic firms and expertise, Iraq's oil output will rise each year by 500,000 barrels per day in later years, he said.
"Half a million barrels will be added every year; 3.5 million bpd at the end of 2007 and 4 million at the end of 2008 and so on," he said.
Shahristani reiterated that the Opec exporting country has a longer-term target of between 6 million and 8 million bpd in less than a decade.
"In parallel, and after an oil and gas law is passed and international oil majors are invited ... we expect to raise production to between 6 and 8 million bpd in the foresesable future, in less than 10 years."
The government wants to pass a law to unlock potentially huge foreign investment in Iraq's vital oil industry by setting ground rules for how the state's resources are managed.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- September 5, 2006 2:51 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Another from www.iraqieconomy.org

Khor Al Zubair port shut August 31, 2006 - Iraq's smaller southern Khor al-Zubair oil terminal, which handles refined products and liquefied gas, has been closed since late on Tuesday because of a collision between two ships, shipping agents said.
Gulf Agency Company said the port and oil terminal was shut since 2000 local time (1700 GMT) on Tuesday after two general cargo ships collided.
The terminal handles the biggest portion of the country's Liquefied Petroleum Gas imports as well as refined products.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- September 5, 2006 2:52 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

May I post another from www.iraqieconomy.org

Iraq to provide oil to Jordan within 10 days September 5, 2006 - Iraq will begin providing Jordan with 10,000 barrels of crude oil within 10 days at preferential rates following an agreement between the two neighbours last month, an official said on Monday.
The oil will be transported by trucks to Jordan, a senior official at the Ministry of Energy and Mineral Resources said.
The oil will be treated at Jordanian refineries, the official added.
Iraq struck a deal in mid-August with Jordan to provide its oil-parched neighbour with 10-30 per cent of its daily oil needs of around 100,000 barrels.
Part of the deal will eventually involve laying a new pipeline across the desert between the two neighbours.
The move is aimed at easing pressure on the Jordanian government, which increased the price of petrol, gas and home heating oil in April by between 12 and 43 per cent in a bid to reduce the budget deficit.
The April price hike was the third in less than a year.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- September 5, 2006 2:54 PM ∞

---

Anonymous wrote:

All:

Another from www.iraqieconomy.org

Iraq, Iran set up free-trade zone September 4, 2006 - The southern Province of Basra now has a free-trade zone with neighboring Iran, signaling yet another boost in commercial ties.
The zone was officially opened on Sunday and was hailed as a milestone in the province’s relations with Iran.
The provincial council in Basra has separate trade agreements with Iran. Provincial delegations travel to Iran and sign deals. They only notify the Baghdad government about their moves.
Shops in Basra and other southern cities are crammed with Iranian goods.
Iran wants to use the zone, straddling the borders at the Shalmja border post, as a major warehouse to stockpile goods destined for Iraqi markets.
Exact trade figures are hard to obtain in Iraq, but Iran is believed to have become the country’s top trade partner.
Iran hopes the warehouses at the new zone, the first between the two countries, will reduce transport costs for Iraqi traders.
To assist the transport of its goods, Iran is constructing a highway linking the new zone to the provincial center, the city of Basra.
It is also repairing al-Tanoma Bridge on the Shatt al-Arab Waterway.
Trade exchange between the countries is now estimated at nearly $3 billion.
Iranian exports to Iraq include food stuffs, household utensils, clothes, agricultural implements and electrical appliances.
Iraqi exports to Iran include dates and hides.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- September 5, 2006 2:57 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

The last post was from me, sorry.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- September 5, 2006 2:58 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Here is the last article from www.iraqieconomy.org.

Baghdad to receive $22.7 million telecommunications center September 2, 2006 - The last remnant of the Al Mamoon Exchange and Telecommunications Center was removed Aug. 5 to make way for a new seven-story telecommunications building.
The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (USACE) Gulf Region Central District's (GRC) International Zone Office Deputy Resident Engineer Karem said that the facility will be "a visual symbol that Iraq is connected to the global community."
The Ministry of Communication offices will be located in the building in addition to a 1,300-square-meter post office. The structure will also feature a 200-seat auditorium, a cafeteria capable of serving 150, an exhibition hall, numerous conference rooms, several floors of communication switch gear, a 250-car covered garage and parking for 10 mail delivery vans and a loading dock for two trucks.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- September 5, 2006 3:00 PM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Where has Sara gone? I have not seen her post in a while. Just curious.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- September 5, 2006 4:24 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Jihaa,

Got my long awaited 5 mil today, and by runing on rags for tires, skipping oilchanges, and reparing electrical problems with foil in the fusebox, I managed to buy another 5 mil, tried safeDinar this time, delivery tomorrow.

Went to my bank, and was to deposit my stash for today, and found out that I had to swap to a bigger safetybox.

After tomorrows delivery I will sit on 40 mil. Just got the e-mail with Fedex tracking number, It's on the way. This is completely insaaaaane, is there anyone out there that can stop me?

Lance,

If everything else fails we always have Fish and Coconuts. Swapping five reefers against one LSD hit is also plausible, but it screws up the logaritmic as it is not a one to ne swap. Yes the editor is sending me a couple of Dinars, he claim that there was more positive responses today on the last article. Perhaps you can send a report from the man on the ground. Tell all the indicators, hard or impossible to get hold of Dinars, oilcompanies running criss cross in the desert staking out claims, and doing surveys. Stuff like that. I dont know how much you want to diversifiy yourself. Your call. Just talk it over with your Hairy Shirt, he'll understand.

Rob N,

Really good news, then you had some more good news, and some more, and some more. This is what the whole thing is about.

I have a feling, that the MSM will continue to show all the miseries in the world, and just miss out on the important stuff, and suddenly they will wake up in a new Iraq, and wonder where all this good stuff came from.

Re, Sara, she is on spiritual soulsearching leave right now, she will be back, she is missed. It's not her faith, it's her approach, she'll figure it out. If you see her around, give her a hug from me.

Steve,

HAPPY BIRTHDAY DEAR STEEEVE, HAPPY BIRTH DAY TO YOU.

All,

Let it RV anytime, I'm cocked, locked and ready.

Really, I'm hoping for it anytime soon now. But I have that little nagging wish that they would be just a little bit ineffectve, have another meeting, sort something out first, and so on, so I can get just a liiiiitle bit more of those Dinars.

Get them while you can. It's getting late in Denmark, hasten your pace somewhat, you might even have to run. The bummer is we cant tell, the only thing we can tell is that all the major pieces are in place.

Skip the oilchange, buy Dinars instead, you can buy a car for the money you invested instead ( just got my investment ethic code degree)

Rob N again,

May I ask, whatever came out of that scam thing on E-Bay?

I know Carl can give you some names and numbers that will help you, but according to Carl, you never called him.

I assume you have some handle on this yourself then?

Okie,

I must say I have never really been sold on the Idea of overseas banking, been a bit weary about Warka, and all that, but as you have been posting more and more of how they operate, and via you, I have been able to see how they are developing, my confidence is growing in them.

Not to say that I will go that route, but from what I have read, they have in my mind change status from a "Russian Rip Off" possibility, to a respectable trustwordy institution.

It just add to my whole picture of Iraq as an up and coming place. Even if I'm personally so so interested in it, it shows the develppment that is going on, and if the Warka is developing in such a stride, I can imagine that the development in CBI is not a standstill thing either. Those postings have a significant weight to them.

-- September 5, 2006 7:16 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

So what was accompished with the first day back in the Iraqi parliment?

Here's a story I found on Noozz.com

Iraqi parliament to debate federal break-up

Agence France-Presse English Wire
Sep 6 2006

by Jay Deshmukh

BAGHDAD, (AFP) - Iraq's parliament reopened Tuesday after a month-long recess marred by mounting sectarian violence, with deputies slated to discuss breaking up the country into semi-independent regions.

At the top of the agenda was the controversial issue of whether to allow Iraq's provinces to merge into larger autonomous regions, a move which some Sunni lawmakers fear could tear the country apart.

Other groups, however, strongly support a plan which would create virtually independent zones in the oil-rich Shiite south and Kurdish north, and leave the Sunnis economically isolated in the barren western desert.

Meanwhile, Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's coalition government struggled to unite Iraq's warring factions and end the ongoing bloodshed.

"I urge all people of goodwill to come forward to support the national reconciliation project, otherwise we will face the worst period in modern Iraqi history," speaker Mahmud Mashhadani said as he opened the session.

"We are the elected leaders of Iraq and I'm confident that the terrorists will not succeed in what they do," he said, referring to rival insurgents and militias who kill more than 50 Iraqis in attacks every day.

"In the next few sessions the parliament will discuss the law for the formation of provinces," predicted Abbas al-Bayati, spokesman for the largest Shiite bloc, the United Iraqi Alliance, which holds 128 seats.

Before the session, Nawzad Saleh, a member of the Kurdish Alliance, said: "There is a draft law being discussed within the coalition to form provinces in accordance with the constitution. Informal discussions have begun."

A leading Sunni lawmaker, Alaa Maki, confirmed the issue was on the agenda, and appeared to signal that his group's opposition was softening.

"We will give our opinion on federalism to parliament soon," he said. "But we do not object to the administrative application of federalism for better administration under the supervision of a strong central government."

While the assembly's 275 members gathered at the parliament building in Baghdad's heavily fortified Green Zone, Bayati noted that under Iraq's new constitution, the issue of federalism must be put forth before September 16.

It was not high on Tuesday's agenda however. Instead, deputies rubber-stamped the renewal of Iraq's state of emergency until October 1, under which the government has broad powers to fight unrest.

Most lawmakers nominally support a fragile national unity coalition headed by Maliki, who is struggling to impose his authority on a strife-torn country.

But virtually all parliament members represent parties divided on strict ethnic and sectarian lines, and many political parties also enjoy the tacit or open support of militia forces engaged in Iraq's current bloody conflict.

Two issues are likely to generate angry debate, one being the federalist proposal.

The Kurdish north has enjoyed broad self-rule for 15 years, allowing it to escape the worst of the violence plaguing Arab areas, and is virtually united behind demands for this to be legally enshrined.

Many Shiite leaders -- some allegedly encouraged by neighbouring Iran -- also want to split away areas in central and south Iraq which hold holy Shiite shrines and pilgrimage sites as well as rich oil fields.

Sunnis, who prospered under Saddam Hussein's ousted regime while the others suffered his repression, generally favour a strongly centralised Iraq that would guarantee their rights as a minority.

Another issue likely to generate heat is that of the national flag, which the president of the autonomous Kurdish region, Massud Barzani, has refused to fly, arguing that it represents the Saddam's regime.

Sunni lawmakers issued a statement before parliament opened calling on Kurds to accept the flag as an interim measure while parliament debates the design of a new symbol acceptable to all Iraqis.

This was unlikely to placate the Kurds, however.

Later in the day, Britain's Foreign Minister Margaret Beckett was due to meet Maliki and President Jalal Talabani for talks on security, a day after two British soldiers were killed in southern Iraq.

jds/dc/wai

Iraq

Basically.. these fools are still fighting among each other rather than enjoying unification and a better economy.

-- September 5, 2006 9:09 PM ∞

---

Seeker wrote:

To Steve

A very happy BIRTHDAY. VIRGO's unite. I to am a Virgo with a splash of Leo on top. My birthday was the 23rd, on the cusp. I believe this mix makes me 1 arrogant, controlling, nitpicky, dreamer.

To All

I had the day off today so I had some time to alittle research my self. Most you already have posted the info I found.

One other COOL thing I was able to do, was call a CHASE BANK. I wanted inquire whether or not the rumour about purchasing Dinar was true. Guess what? I is!
I called up my favorite search engine "GOOGLE", and found a branch in Phoenix, AZ. (I live in Wash. State).
I put my fingers on speed dial and gave'em a call. The LIVE person I spoke to told me that "Yes they can take orders for Dinar. Whan an order is placed and paid for, it will be filled within 24 hours. The rate today was 0.00076310 or 763.00 dollars per Mil.
Not to bad.

Put the price of a plane ticket, hotel and acouple of days off of work to that and comes to about 1,000.00 per Mil.
Not so good.

The price of Dinar in the hand as opposed to a dealer with a 6 week turn around in the shadow of a looming RV.

Priceless

-- September 6, 2006 12:24 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Seeker,

Good, get them while you can. Now here is the question for you, did you settle the deal with a bank guarantee, that the Dinars was purchased at the time of your payment, and not at the time of the Banks delivery?

What did they say about that?

A 24 hour turnaround time is very very good. That is in time, the same as the more expensive dealers that hold the currency and ship them overnight. Still a couple of dollars cheaper than them.

Really good and valuable info here.

May I sugggest, no need to go in person from the state of Washington to AZ just to pick something up. Just make the bank FedEx the currency. No problem, it's done everyday, from the dealers. Once it shipped you can track your package. I dont know the banks view on this, but I can't see any reason to make a problem out of it.

Unless you have specificly in mind to cross over to Sin City in Nevada.

Definitely a very good strategy you were working on seeker, you get your Dinars quick.

Dont let your money work for a 5-6 week turnaround dealer, it's far too risky now.

Good deal Seeker, get them while you can.

-- September 6, 2006 12:56 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Well some is Virgo and some is Libra.

The twelve constellations in the Zodiac seems to ignore that the sun itself is spending a full month in the "snakebearer" constellation around December.

That one is not even mentioned in the Astrology zodiac.

When they set up Astrology the constellations were set to a time of the year. Now, ad to it that the earth is in its spinn doing a 25000 year wobble. (north pointing straight up at the northpole, will describe a wide circle in the sky over 25000 years.) and the constellations chartered some thousand years back are therefore positioned today in retrograde.

On top of that, the sun can spend 11 days in one constellation, 36 in another one, 8 in another one and so on.

The chances of you actually being born when the sun is in the constellation the Astrologers say, is very slim.

There is no until today known measureble power, other than very very small ammount of gravity, that celestial bodies can excert on our life.

If the position of jupier Venus and Mars is supposedly important. The gravity experienced from earth from those planets is combined about thousand times less then the moons gravity.

That means that the moon must be about thousand times more important in deciding your life than any other celestial body except the sun.

However, the sun is so much farther away than the moon, that the gravitational pull is about equal,(I must add here, from the Earths perspective) by coincident when a solar eclipse happens, the sun and the moon will cover each other almost perfectly.

So if the sun have about equal celestial importance as the moon, it seems that half of the dial is missing in Astrology.

We can ofcourse in our mind assiciate a red planet with blood and say that Mars is about War or warriors.

I just cant see then, how Venus can be associated with anything else other than bad gas.

Known forces, will decrease with the square of the distance, but some argues that distance have no meaning with Astrology, a planets position will influence you despite the distance.

Ok, fine, then, in exactly what way will the about 150 or so recently discovered planets in other solar system influence you.

Getting a bit messy , doesnt it?

Dont argue with me, I'm an Aries.

-- September 6, 2006 1:34 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Taylor,

I must heavy in my heart agree with you.

They are bickering about needles,, and lesser important things.

The tribe culture Lance have described, is very obvious, because the reasoning is not what is good for Iraq, as a whole, but what is good for our local tribe, region, or group.

To me this describe the sense of belonging, being very local. About as far as the eye can see, anything over the horizon is "them".

I am happy though that they ARE talking, stuff that is important for those people must and will ofcourse be dealt with BY those people.

The more important stuff for Iraq is the pigger picture, but with such a local view, the bigger picture might seem too big to even fathom by some.

Then we are immediately over the horizon again. Beyond that horizon is Americans, Jews, conspiracys and Allah.

Things not fully understood, how a combustion engine works, what is photosyntesis, why is a diod an electronic flow backvalve, must be a grey mass of mental clouds, all imported, created by lesser beings, intriguing, and in the meanwhile be careful not to push the red button. Dont know what it does.

The comfi zone is the known, the local, the group.

You and me are sitting here rolling our eyes, complaining about their inefficiency.

We can see the dots, the lines, the particles flowing between them, and make out a pattern that we can assign causes and effects into.

Theyre not really there just yet, but they are getting there. Hopefully before I get into Rigor Mortis.

-- September 6, 2006 1:59 AM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

Lance,

I am finding myself feeling like I am being marginalized by you.

The group as a whole asked for all inpute from anyone.

Your method of marginalizing is to let a person know how little you think that person knows. And you have not only done this to me but to others on this forum with your additional assumption that gullible people listen to MSN. I for one, do not appreciate your treatment of me and anyone else you do this too.

I have watched as you have done this same behavior with another on this forum. This other person took the slam and defended himself and I am glad he did. If you need the example, scroll back a bit and I think you will find it.

I am well aware of fact that we have discussed the corruption issues in Iraq, i.e., gasoline/oil energy being stolen.

The article I was reading is the official report to parliament and what they are reading on the energy dept. thefts. I thought, maybe, this group might be interested in how the oil got stolen i.e. with examples. The Iraqi's are good at corruption.

The official report outlines the actual costs to the Iraq government and what the parliament is doing about spending additional revenues out of the budget. What I attempted to do was to give this group a sense of what this report said. This to my knowledge has never been done with examples of corruption on this forum.

In addition, the flag issue is a symptom in my opinion of a struggle to keep oil resources in the northern part of Iraq.

Another symptom, the political Kurdist Parties in northern Iraq also are responsible for suppressing the vote among the Assyrian Christain Community and the Sunni Communities in Central Iraq.

It has been reported they have been killing anyone who gets in their way to claim northern terrorities.

I know this by articles that have been written in news media and by testimony I have read from someone in Iraq that came to USA Congressional Hearings. Among problems cited:

1. Voter boxes were taken by Kurds to keep people (non kurds) from voting.

Fraud: Ballot boxes were stuffed with kurd votes and the areas that these votes were recorded did not have the population for that many votes.

2. People were denied the right to vote--and killed to keep Sunni Arabs and Assyrian Christians from voting.

The individual who testified in this hearing gave examples of individual killings and stated that she believed the kurds did this to deny adequate seats to the Christians and Sunni's in the Iraq Parliament.

Further, it was this person's belief that the kurds are setting up another Saddam Hussein regime in the northern region.

The real question is who is in charge of the Kurdist actions of the people?.

I am not on the ground in Iraq to ask these questions. And given what is happening up North and Central Iraq, I bet the southern part of Iraq is doing the same with the Shiites.

What I am hoping to do is speak with General George Sada in USA in October. He is due to come to USA for a Republican Fund Raiser. He is representing and speaking on behalf of Iraq's Prime Minister.

I believe, that Iraq is going through a real crisis internally. I further believe that the above items can affect Iraq's national security and ultimately the currency value.

However, if Lance, you and the board do not want to know what I am reading and my observations, I will keep it to myself and stop posting.

Laura

-- September 6, 2006 2:33 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

If you're not...then I'm gonna..

-- September 6, 2006 3:18 AM ∞

---

Laura Parker wrote:

Ok Roger. Fine.

-- September 6, 2006 4:14 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Laura,

I apologize, I was on one of my-better-then-thou-rants, but I really didn’t mean for it to be taken that way. I should have been clearer on my opposition to the article/web site that you posted. A little research showed where that article was coming from and that is what got my blood boiling. Below is the “About Us” from the web site. The operative term here, or person is George Soros. Below that are 3 links that tell a little about Mr. Soros (Ex Nazi, Jew hater, legalize illegal drugs, and probably the most damning that concerns us is how he made his fortune in arbitrage, in developing country money trading) the number of bodies in his wake is horrendous, not to mention his hatred of the Republican Party and GB. Check out the links below and you will see that he has a very shady agenda for Iraq. Anything or anyone that is connected with this person takes a large pinch of salt (i.e. the entire Bonneville Salt Flats) to believe.

You are of course welcome to post what ever you like, and I will try and stay off my high horse, again I apologize.
Open Society Institute (OSI) Chairman George Soros launched Iraq Revenue Watch (IRW) in May 2003. At that time, the goal of IRW was to ensure transparent international stewardship of Iraq’s oil revenues while the country remained under occupation. Now that Iraq is once again independent, the goal of IRW is to monitor Iraq's oil industry and public finances, to ensure that they are managed with the highest standards of transparency and that the benefits of national oil wealth flow to the people of Iraq.
http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/Chronicles/February2004/0204Trifkovic.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A24179-2003Nov10?language=printer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros

-- September 6, 2006 7:56 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

All,

George Soros is one of the richest men in the world. You have to ask yourself what his agenda is. Does he hold Billions of IQD or is his hatred of GB and Republicans in general, such that he can afford or even help in the destruction of a democratic Iraq? Which side is he betting on? This is one really scary dude. I bet he is betting on the downfall of Iraq and has placed his money on that side, and will of course direct his efforts in that end. He will play to get both his goals. Make the Republicans look bad, and make money off the downfall of Iraq.

-- September 6, 2006 8:17 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Laura,

Yes, I did go after a post by a person that used opinion as fact, and used discredited history and feeling to justify thier opinion. Sorry, but when someone leaves them self that open, and pronounces their opinion as facts based on discredited and incorrect information, or a groups phophetic pronouncements, I just can't resist the urge. Was it a snide and low rebuttal? Probably, I'm human (sometimes), and at least I tell everyone that what I write is an opinion if such, or a fact based on personal observation.

Again I am sorry if you felt it was a personal attack, what I was attacking was the source of your post.

Lance

-- September 6, 2006 8:46 AM ∞

---

carl wrote:

Laura:
You have very good post and are informative...that is what makes this board interesting because of the diversity...I don't always agree with the posters view...but I enjoy reading their views for it does either one or two things....
It supports my present view point or gives me knowledge where I realize that my present view point was in error...
Keep posting...I am sure that Lance did not mean to offend...he is right about George Sorros having the tendency of being far to the left....However...I have also found in life that just because someone is either right or left does not affect the truth...if the facts back up the information...

Iraq does have a major corruption problem. It does not stop at the top governmental levels, but extends throughout all levels
of government. The problem is that corruption has been accepted for years as a way of doing business there. It will take years before it all is removed, I also believe progress will take place as the corruption is gradually decreased.
George made his money off of currency...the methods...well! lets say some of the methods were less that honorable or morally questionable...

As far as tribal allegence, that goes on here in America today....How many times does your senator or representative try to get as much money as they can for their own little pork barrel projects within their state..
Or....the republican party try to out do the democrats with funding for their members....
I don't believe any of those yahoos cared if it was good for the majority of the US citizens...
A Tribal designation
is a just label....give it any name you want...the motives are the same...either in iraq or good ole USA...

Cultural raising has many lasting affects and it takes years for things to change..but change they will...nothing remains motionless...even a rock laying on or buried in the ground changes daily...

-- September 6, 2006 8:52 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Carl.....

Regarding corruption...true story from Kuwait...can't release too many details...

It seems that several Kuwaiti Contractors were complaing to the authorities about not getting their fair share of the work.

Their complaint..." We're not getting enough contracts even though we've supplied good submittals including the proper amount of Baksheesh (bribe) to the proper authorities".

Needless to say this was swept under the rug in a hurry!

-- September 6, 2006 9:32 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

I'm glad everything is in a happier mood now....Just remember to slow down, take a deep breath and get back on your favorite medication...Jim Beam always works for me....

The train is picking up speed and we'll be at the station soon....

-- September 6, 2006 9:39 AM ∞

---

Rob N. wrote:

All:

Any talk of dividing Iraq into Tribal zones concerns me. In my opinion, it should concern us all. If each province is assigned to a particular ethnic group is a threat to the centralized government and a bigger threat to the New Iraqi Dinar.

If the provinces are divided along ethnic lines I can see the need for each province to incorporate their own unique currency. This making the NID worthless. The longer all these issues go unsettled the longer before an RV will occur.

On the other hand, the U.S has invested 18 billion in reconstruction I cannot see the U.S. government not having a say as to whether Iraq is divided along racial lines. Thoughts?

Lance:

Ebay is investigating.

Thanks,

Rob N.

-- September 6, 2006 10:22 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Some good news from the US Oil Patch.

=============================================================================
Oil source in Gulf of Mexico fuels hope
Geologic formation targeted by Chevron could yield 800,000 barrels per day of crude
By Elizabeth Douglass, Los Angeles Times

Chevron Corp. and two partners said Tuesday they had tapped a potentially huge source of oil in the Gulf of Mexico's deep waters, fueling hopes that further discoveries in the region could help ease the United States' supply issues.
The successful test of the deepest oil wells ever drilled showed such promise that some say they believe the undersea oil pool could rank as the largest discovery of crude since Alaska's Prudhoe Bay began flowing nearly 40 years ago.

"An opportunity like this only comes once every few decades," said Daniel Yergin, chairman of Boston-based Cambridge Energy Research Associates. "It holds out the prospect that this means more supply, and more supply is good news for consumers."

http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_4293445?source=rss

-- September 6, 2006 10:33 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Laura,
I have butted heads with everyone on this board in one fashion or another. The important thing to take away is your own confidence. Without it, you will have nothing. Have confidence in your words and you will find yourself not feeling obligated to defend them. They will speak for themselves. Be clear on this: I am NOT implying that you lack self-confidence, just expressing how I approach my posts and thinking.

I disagree with Roger on whether humans have 3 arms or not. I say yes, he says no. (please stop arguing this point Roger.........)
I disagree with Lance on good business ideas for Iraq. I want to open a gun shop, he thinks not.... (I'll make millions here.......)
I disagree with Rob N. about Iraq's most valuable commodity. He says oil, I say it's fine sand for hourglasses......
I disagree with Carl about the next fashion craze in Iraq. I say it will be Lederhosen. He disagrees. (I have my business plan in place for this already...)
I disagree with Okie about why the chicken crossed the road. I say it was to reach the stack of Dinar on the other side, he's not so sure....

The list goes on and on, but ALL of these positions are backed with my FULL CONFIDENCE. Have a good day.

-- September 6, 2006 10:55 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Steve....

Good post but I did notice that you jumped on the gun shop...OK,OK....You can have the Baghdad shop and I'll take the one in Basra...deal?

-- September 6, 2006 11:10 AM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Inflation is now at 70% and prices are going up on just about everything in Iraq....a perfect time to do a big ole RV...especially just before Ramadan which starts Sept. 24.

-- September 6, 2006 1:23 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

Rob N.

If they tried to split the country into three elements I believe this would happen…

Kurdistan…..The Turks would jump on them like a dog on a bone because they’ve already stated an independent Kurdistan will not be allowed on their Border and the Kurds know this. The Kurds are well on their way to prosperity and they like it!

Sunnis……..If they got cut out of the pie, violence would go sky high because they wouldn’t have any part of the Golden Goose Oil. They would have Baghdad but very little money.

Shi’ites…….They would love to take Southern Iraq and all the riches it contains. They could have a great time with Iran and would be known as “Iran West”. Also, before this happened the Kurds, Sunnis and the US would join together to prevent it, including a possible takeover of the Government.

I don’t believe the US will allow Iraq to be split into three parts…..it doesn’t fit our plans and serves no positive purpose.

-- September 6, 2006 2:51 PM ∞

---

Okie wrote:

And another thing about the well that Chevron just brought in......

"Chevron's well is among the deepest ever drilled, extending through 7,000 feet of Gulf waters and then 20,000 feet more below the sea floor. From the rig to the bottom, the well measures 28,175 feet — more than five miles — and is a record depth for the Gulf of Mexico, Chevron said."

I hope everybody appreciates what a great Engineering feat it is to go more than five miles with a drill string and start pumping oil.

-- September 6, 2006 3:23 PM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Okie,

I'm offering franchise rights to the Baghdad gun store. Make me proud bro.......

As for your other post, I do agree that a split up Iraq serves us zero. Won't happen, and you hit the reasons right on.

I am very proud of the US led effort to look for oil in more hostile environments. We need to be more proactive in this area. Unfortunately, these oil deposits are not going to bring about 2 dollar gas again. Perhaps in the future we can find a way to pump this deposits at a fraction of the cost it takes to do it today. As a nation our reserves are precariously low. We use 6.5 billion barrels a year. Our current reserves are around 30 billion. Do the math.......

A big fat RV would make me more happy right now. I spend a great deal of time thinking of the implications of this investment panning out as I envision. I can honestly say that I am prepared to step to the plate and take care of the people who have supported me thus far......

So, I say to Iraq: Get your @#%^&*! together........

-- September 6, 2006 5:48 PM ∞

---

the new guy wrote:

Well hello all. I'm guessing the RV already happened. sure wish it wasn't true because I would love a 1:1. Looks like a long term investment. hopefully I will at least break even in 5 years. Looks like the only people making money fast on this one is those who are selling now. Good luck to all.

-- September 6, 2006 7:37 PM ∞

---

TAYLOR wrote:

Hey new guy...unless you can back up that fact with anything concrete I suggest you piss off. Go sell your dinars and go away.

-- September 6, 2006 8:33 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Laura Lance,

Sometimes a mind can be a minefield, and when someone walk along in someone else mind, and hit a mine, he will apologize, (Called for, or not)if he has good manners.

However, when he walked onto that minefield, he learned a lot, he lost a part of his leg, walking in your mind.

He didnt plant that mine, and now he will know that, if there is one mine, there are more mines there, and it is an unknown what will trigger one.

Thus communication with a person holding a minefield, will be lessend, to the degree they are triggered.

It's better to not have a minefield, let anyone walk without fear.

The closer you will permit someone else to be, the less you will be hurt.

I have experienced a certain closeness with most people on this blog, the more fee minded, the more free communication can be experienced.

The more free communication that can be experienced, the more data you get.

Some have a better ability than others to freely communicate with strangers, or unknown people.

Some have less ability, insisting on etiquiette, ridgid rules,and will get upset if some social boundaries are crossed.

For a free mind this is easy, for a ridgid mind, there are rules and regulations.

With friends you can get away with things.

If they are strangers, they must comply with the rules.

Better see us all as friends.

Laura, may I ask you something? I will give you a completely unsocial question. Not accepted amongst strangers, and I also know exactly what kind of response I would get if I would pose it to Lance, Steve, Okie, Rob N, Carl and a couple of more.We would have a ball.

Laura, what is your response to this question: Does your feet stink?

-- September 6, 2006 9:12 PM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Okie,

Yes I read about that find. Even pessimistic prognosis classify it as a very big one. Optimistic ones claim it will do a significant dent in our oil dependancy.

That was a well done job drilling that deep.

Steve,

Oh man are you a loser or what, still don't know the right number of arms. Hey, Seeker have done a Chase bank deal, you talked about doing one, any news about that?

All,

Iraq split in three.

I strongly doubt that this will happen. To me it sounds more like another zero loop argument.

I do however have no doubts that as in any country there will be local goverments.

US is split up in states, where each state even can have a constitution. Own goverment and own local laws.

After that the states are split up in counties, where you also have a certain degree of self goverment.

Cities have their small city goverment, where Aunt Edna and bicycle reparman Burt, is sitting imposing laws that no one can sell bicycles except those that fill certain criterias ( his shop is the only one that does)

So the fact that smaller regions have their own small little goverment I can't see as a catastrophy, the only problem here, discussed earlier, is that by cultural tradition, the small local group, is more important than anything else in the world, and when they are implementing their smaller regional goverment, they(the smaller regions) are acting like they now have a nation of their own.

I do however feel that they despite their differences, they have the "Iraq concept" enough imbedded, that they accept that as their country.

One of the most stable countries in the world, super conservative, and with very few social problems, Switzerland, have three languages, German, Italian and French.

With all their differences, cultural and linguistic, ask any one of them in any region what they consider themself to be, and you will get a 99.99999% answer saying "Switz".

Still Switzerland have more linguistic and cutural differences than the current ethinic, religious and linguistic difference Iraq can present.

I've seen the MSM lately, some reports saying that a split is imminent and so on. I think it's pretty much bull, because the problem is the visible ethinic clashes, not the already established, goverment.

With all their faults, they are doing their part, and they even though not fully functioning, represent the whole nation. The whole nation have voted them in.

They have one army, one police force, one common border, one flag, one freely elected goverment, one currency, and on top of it all, despite the blood....Iraqs future is looking darn good, and they know it.

-- September 6, 2006 9:50 PM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

All,

Do not believe that they will split the country apart. Much of the posturing in the Parliament and elsewhere in the GoI is just that. And even if they tried I think they know that Uncle Sam will not let it happen. Got to keep the Turban Heads (Mullahs, Imams) back home happy by making a stink about something. The Kurds are making a stink about the flag because it is the same one they had under Saddam. The new one that they came up with under the CPA ended up looking like the Israeli Flag, so it got scrapped and they went back to the Saddam flag. I agree that they need a new flag that they can rally around, and if you look at it in that light the Kurds are actually doing something good. If they can come up with a new design that works for all, or most, then it will actually help with the unity. I wonder how much of this was pre-planned with the GoI.

But Tribal is the operative word in what is going on in the Parliament right now. They are all staking out their little territories, and thus they get a double benefit. First it addresses the needs and wants of the people/Sheik/Militia/Imam back home, so they feel that the politicians really care about them, and second it gives they something to bargain with, and compromise on, when they get down to the real work. I think they all realize that they have to keep this together as no single section could stand on its own. If they did break up they would still be neighbors and no one would win. This seems like madness compared to our House/Senate back home, but we have a 2 party system that has been in place for centuries. They have how many parties? 1-200, on top of different tribes/religions/ethnic groups and like or dislike of latest Disney movie. It is insanity in our view, but for them it is a work in progress. Give them a little time, they will get down to business pretty soon. They also have numerous laws that they are mandated to pass under their constitution that have deadlines. They have been pretty beat-up about their failure to meet these deadlines in the last session, so they are working hard to get it together.

As for the Gun Shop in Baghdad, it’s a great idea. One of the items that I am working on to sell, is Thermonuclear Hand Grenades. I want Roger to test them for me after I go on vacation next week. Let me know how they work Roger!!!

-- September 6, 2006 10:15 PM ∞

---

Tim Bitts wrote:

Hi, I find this blog entertaining. Sure beats Friends reruns.

-- September 6, 2006 11:39 PM ∞

---

Tim Bitts wrote:

Hi, I find this blog entertaining. Sure beats Friends reruns.

-- September 6, 2006 11:39 PM ∞

---

the new guy wrote:

taylor, taylor, taylor
I since such hostility from you. Sure hope you didn't blow your nest egg on a 1 in a billion chance. good luck to you. hope it all works out. don't hold your breath though.

-- September 7, 2006 12:24 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Tim Bitts,

Come in, sit down, have a drink.

Are you a Dinar investor?

Lance,

In the nuclear craze in the 50's and 60's, the US war dep was looking into all kind of delivery systems for a nuclear warhead. a lot of different concepts was tried. Some good most bad. A big canon was tried, it worked, but was so big that it was evident that it was a target almost in the sitting duck category. So it was scrapped.

One other concept was tried, it was a huge grenade launcher, that could lobb a tactical warhead about 2-3 miles.

They tried it, and it worked, except that the launcer would have to be in the blast zone, so one pre requisit was that they have to dig a shelter, a big hole, lobb the warhead, and dive into the hole quick.

One of the strongest recorded languages in the official report that was ever used was stated in the evaluaton of this weapon.

"Apart from a nuclear handgrenade, this is probably one of the most stupid weapon ever conceived."

And now we have come full circle, Lance have finally figured out the "Nuclear hand grenade".

Despite I have three arms, one extreemly long, shaped like a fling, I really really apreciate the offer Lance, I must in passing acknowledge you for quite a brilliant creation, but in sincerity, wouldnt you agree that this would be a weapon that we really wouldnt mind putting in the hands of AlQaida. George Soro, could get one of those also, to demostrate for his freedom fighters.

Hey, are you going to good ol' USA, or are you just taking a couple of days off in Kuwait, where you can take your Dinars out of the safetybox, and introduce each one of them to your Hairy Shirt?

-- September 7, 2006 12:30 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

The new guy,

Or Ministry of Lies or what you prefere to call yourself. Perhaps Taylor had a harsh word there, but he had a very valid point. If you would have follow the evolution of Iraq, its currency and investments, you would know better than just get in on a site, declaring us idiots, and walk out of the site, having done your job.

Your knowledge is very poor, your hopeless prognosis for the future of Iraq is more a reflection of yourself than true knowledge.

The only reason you walk into a site, throw a pie in the face, and walk out is your inability to think for yourself.

Other people can easily convince you about things.

The reason other people can easily convince you about what they say,is that you , yourself are incapable of looking yourself.

Big areas of your life is covered with your labels, like a..holes, idiots, f...g stupids, and you are loud about it too.

It's not easy to be humble when a person is as smart as you are, isn't it so?

-- September 7, 2006 12:59 AM ∞

---

Seeker wrote:

Roger

To answer your question about Chase Bank and Dinar deal. No, not yet. You posed some interesting points after my post, that I don't have the answers to yet. Tried to call them back today but failed to get anybody to answer the freak'n phone.(Strange for a bank!) Then I got to buzy at work aaand, next thing I knew it was to late to call them again. I plan on trying again tomorrow.
I'll let ya know what turns up.

To answer your question to Laura / for Laura bout stinky feet.
Hell yes. I sometimes have to spend 1/2 an hour or so in the morning trying to find my shoes because they've run off to hide.
I'm sure my socks could curl the nose hairs of a Saquatsh. No brag, just fact.

-- September 7, 2006 1:31 AM ∞

---

Seeker wrote:

Roger

To answer your question about Chase Bank and Dinar deal. No, not yet. You posed some interesting points after my post, that I don't have the answers to yet. Tried to call them back today but failed to get anybody to answer the freak'n phone.(Strange for a bank!) Then I got to buzy at work aaand, next thing I knew it was to late to call them again. I plan on trying again tomorrow.
I'll let ya know what turns up.

To answer your question to Laura / for Laura bout stinky feet.
Hell yes. I sometimes have to spend 1/2 an hour or so in the morning trying to find my shoes because they've run off to hide.
I'm sure my socks could curl the nose hairs of a Saquatsh. No brag, just fact.

-- September 7, 2006 1:34 AM ∞

---

Seeker wrote:

Damn
I love those double posts.
Makes me want to slap my puter stupidier.
OOooh, that was me!

-- September 7, 2006 1:40 AM ∞

---

Lance wrote:

Roger,

Home for 2 weeks to beat the wife, make the kids play in the middle of the highway, kick the dog, and just generally relax. Only a couple of problems with the plan. The wife would divorce me, the kids are bigger and stronger then me and of drinking age (one in the Military and the other just out and in college), my wife cares more for the dog then she does me, and the honey-do list is a mile long. So I am trying to refine some of my options. Will take suggestions for dinar (Saddam era only).

Tim Bitts,

Welcome to the madness!!!!!! Develop thick skin, because no matter what you say or write, Roger, Taylor, Carl, or I, will flay you alive for even attempting to to intrude into our insanity. We will also make rude comments about your parentage and any offspring you may have "been told" that you conceived. Post anything you wish, especially about religion, if you really want to make friends on this site. Other then that, make sure you abide by the 29 Rules for Investing in Dinar. Have a great day and welcome to the abuse.

Lance and the Hair Shirt (who now wants to be known as Fred)

-- September 7, 2006 2:23 AM ∞

---

Roger wrote:

Lance,

I'm writing this just to warn you, your Hairy Shirt, have now developed conciousness, and have behind your back, started to operate your computer.

just got an e-mail from Hairyshirtfred, demanding the phone number to Seekers socks.

-- September 7, 2006 2:51 AM ∞

---

Fred wrote:

wogar

dnt tel him imm takng hes plce whan he go home

got anny goood 800 nbers. lokng for swter tooo date?

-- September 7, 2006 3:54 AM ∞

---

Steve wrote:

Roger wrote:

"Oh man are you a loser or what, still don't know the right number of arms. Hey, Seeker have done a Chase bank deal, you talked about doing one, any news about that?"

#############################################################################################

I think I figured it out. Glasses can work wonders.......

As for the Chase deal, yes they do sell Dinar, unfortunately not in my location (we are always the last to get things).

I gotta get my happy @$$ in the car and drive to Houston if I want a piece of the action. Hell, might be cheaper to fly nowadays....

Lance, does the Hairy Shirt have an opinion on a RV date?

Even if the Dinar is worth 10 cents in 30 years, its still one hell of an investment at that point. Don't lose sight of this in a quest for instant gratification......

-- September 7, 2006 9:59 AM ∞

---

Tim Bitts wrote:

Yes, I am an investor. I am a Canadian. My nickname means, "a tiny round donut available at a local coffee shop." Think of me as a Canadian Homer Simpson, eh? Come to think of it, Matt Groening's dad is from Winnepeg, my home town.

-- September 7, 2006 10:27 AM ∞

---

Kevin Brancato wrote:

My apologies for the outage; too much spam caused my server to shut off T&B's comments until I could implement what is termed a "captcha". This turned out to be much harder than I expected.

Comments are now working, but all commenters must now enter a six digit code to have their comments posted. Go to the new post to begin commenting again.

-- September 13, 2006 2:27 PM ∞